The IFCC and the Fiendish Hierarchies

[Tzardok]

I've been musing a bit on what place Lee, Nero and Cedric have in their respective fiendish societies, assuming those work the same way they do in the standard Great Wheel (they most likely don't in OOTS). I'd like to share my thoughts on that. Feel free to chime in if you have alternate ideas.

Devils
Infernal society is a byzantine bureaucracy topped by two partially independent power groups: the Dark Eight, eight ancient pit fiends that serve as the ministers of Hell's minstries, and the hellish aristocracy, the Dukes of Hell that make up the courts of the Lords of the Nine. Both groups are subordinate to Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth and Tyrant of the Nine Hells.
At first glance one of the Dark Eight, Zapans, Minister of Immortal Diplomacy, seems like a perfect fit as Lee's superior. On the other hand, Lee appears to have no resemblance to the pit fiends, paelyrions or other high ranked, but "normal" types of devils. His unique appearance and self-described status as "archfiend" imply that he is a unique devil, and only the Dukes of Hell are granted unique shapes. From that, I conclude that we have three options for his placement:

1. Bypass: Lee is a Duke of Hell who on the command of his Lord secretely built up the devilish part of the IFCC, bypassing Zapans' command structure and through that undermining the authority of the Dark Eight and Asmodeus. In that case, Lee's Lord is propably the vastly ambitious Mephistopheles or the traitorous Levistus, who would be trying to gain through the inter-fiend alliance enough power to topple Asmodeus.
2. Cooperation: The IFCC is a cooperative effort between Zapans and one or more Lords of the Nine, propably sanctioned by Asmodeus. In that case Lee was sent as an envoy by his Lord to ensure the success of the operation, making him servant of two masters. In this scenario, he's most likely to be one of Asmodeus' or Mephistopheles' Dukes.
3. Rabble: Sometimes a Duke or even a Lord of the Nine falls from grace, gets the boot and is exiled from his court. Those unique devils with no formal power are collectively known as the Rabble of Devilkind. Lee could be a member of the Rabble who subordinated himself to Zapans out of desperation or some kind of scheme.

Demons
Demonic society is a kratocracy, a rulership by violence. Demon Lords and their more powerful counterparts, the demon princes, fight each other for supremacy. The greatest of all of them is Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, with a bunch of powerfu princes directly beneath him, followed by an innumerable number of lesser lords.
Cedric is most likely a minor demon lord. Like with Lee, his unique appearance (which he doesn't share with highest ranks of "common" demons, like a balor, a molydeus or a klurichir) and his self-described status as archfiend imply this. Cedric could be his own master, but the fact that he's described as having superiors and that the molydei would propably hunt him down for trying to end the Blood War makes it more likely that he's a servant of one of the greater demon princes. I would think his master is most likely Graz'zt, the Dark Prince, one of Demogorgon's main rivals and well knnown to be the most "lawful" amongst demon lords, or his mommy Pale Night, Mother of All Demons. Edit: Graz'zt's goal would be, like with Levistus or Mephistopheles on the other side, to gain enough power this way to topple Demogorgon and become the new Big Boss.

Daemons/Yugoloths
The society of the 'loths is a factionalized millitary dictature. All 'loths profess loyality to the General of Gehenna, but under him the society is fractured into groups serving, for example, the Oinoloth, the Keeper of the Tower Arcane, or individuals with no title at all, but a lot of personal clout, like Charon. Unlike devils or demons, "arch-yugoloths" with unique shapes and abilities don't happen, at least not naturally. Only a ritual devised by night hags can transform a yugoloth into a unique form, and those "altraloths" are greatly misliked by the normal 'loths.
For this reason, Nero is the most likely leader of the IFCC to be his own master, only nominally paying homage to the General. He's also propably the only non-unique leader of the IFCC, as he shares a body type with the ultroloths, the highest rung of 'loth. If he alternatively is an altraloth, he would propably be much more closely subordinated to the General or maybe the Oinoloth, as otherwise he would propably lack the clout to actually achieve anything on the IFCC's scale.
A last third option exists; Nero could be a baernoloth, one of the primordial embodiments of Evil who created the yugoloths and, according to rumors, still pull the strings of yugoloth society. In that case, the IFCC and the other directors would be ultimately a tool for Nero's schemes, no matter what Lee and Cedrik think they are.

Thank you for reading my ramblings.

[Tzardok]

Oops. The end of the opening post got cut off. How did that happen?

Fixed now.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's an interesting take on the IFCC, but I doubt that Rich is going to import FR or Greyhawk personalities into his world building for a couple of reasons.

1. It's his world, his cosmos, his cosmology.
2. There might be some concerns about trademark/copywrite if not handled carefully.
3. He can freely use Tiamat, for example, because her name was borrowed from older mythological traditions, as were Marduk, Thor, Odin, Loki, etc.

The IFCC are, as a triumvirate, sufficiently nefarious and powerful that they are a threat to the cosmological order in their own right. The bosses can be "off screen" as needed, or, if we take the IFCC's on screen experiences at face value, they are beholden to, or have relationships with, various evil deities already: the angry phone call from Tiamat being a good example of that.

[Tzardok]

Oh, no no no no. I wasn't implying that Rich would or should import canon characters (who are incidentally independent of Greyhawk or FR). This was simply an idle thought, a what-if the IFCC existed in the canonical Great Wheel.

[dancrilis]

This was simply an idle thought, a what-if the IFCC existed in the canonical Great Wheel.

I think you would need to examine it from the prespective of the statements they made and the relationship they have.

Panel 10: The indicate that this is s proof of concept as to three archfiends working together.
Panel 11: They mention funding from superiors.

Taking this as true (despite know that they were lying), I think we might conclude that the archfiends they mention are their superiors rather then themselves.

This leads to which type of archfiends could be running the show and testing the waters - I posit that neither the Tanar'ri nor the Baatezu would really be able for an agreement that could put an end to the Blood War as even if the Baatezu was able to get broad full support the Tanar'ri would not be able to and the Baatezu would know that.

So we need to look at other potential fiends - and so I suggest for LE a baatorian for the CE a obyrith and just for the sake of narrative for the NE a baernaloth

These creatures have no particular reason to oppose each other, are a lot older then other fiends and may predate the deities (which we know came from elsewhere), and potentially share a similiar history (the younger fiendish races moving in and taking what was once theirs) to act as a point of commonground between them.
There plan could then be used not to attack the forces of good or the like but to rid the lower planes of a lot of the younger fiendish races and thereby restore the original rulers to power - and then do evil properly in order to topple the heavens.

[Metastachydium]

[*]Cooperation: The IFCC is a cooperative effort between Zapans and one or more Lords of the Nine, propably sanctioned by Asmodeus. In that case Lee was sent as an envoy by his Lord to ensure the success of the operation, making him servant of two masters. In this scenario, he's most likely to be one of Asmodeus' or Mephistopheles' Dukes.

Lee doesn't strike me as a loose cannon, so within this framework, I'd prefer the reading above.

He's also propably the only non-unique leader of the IFCC, as he shares a body type with the ultroloths, the highest rung of 'loth.

I was going to object, but an ultroloth in a cloak would, in fact, look a lot like the Directors. That said, it would make sense for him to be unique to the same degree as his peers, given their team dynamics and whatnot.

A last third option exists; Nero could be a baernoloth, one of the primordial embodiments of Evil who created the yugoloths and, according to rumors, still pull the strings of yugoloth society. In that case, the IFCC and the other directors would be ultimately a tool for Nero's schemes, no matter what Lee and Cedrik think they are.

For much the same reason (the Directors are explicitly written as roughly interchangeable in terms of role and style alike), I have considerable difficulty assuming that the whole IFCC is secretly Nero's one-man show with two funny sidekicks.

a baatorian

Those are… Kind of not really a thing anymore?

for the CE a obyrith

Isn't the obyriths' thing being STARK RAVING MAD?

and just for the sake of narrative for the NE a baernaloth

See above.

[hamishspence]

The Obyriths' thing is having auras that drive other people who see them a little mad (exact form depends on the obyrith. People who see Dagon, for example, become phobic about the sea, if they fail a save).

[Tzardok]

These creatures have no particular reason to oppose each other, are a lot older then other fiends and may predate the deities (which we know came from elsewhere), and potentially share a similiar history (the younger fiendish races moving in and taking what was once theirs) to act as a point of commonground between them.

You make good points, but I'd like to remind you that the obyrith, back when they were unified under the Queen of Chaos, started the War of Law and Chaos, of which the Blood War is a sad little remnant. And as in that War everything lawful fought everything chaotic, there is reason to believe that they and the baatorians did fight at least sometimes.

Those are… Kind of not really a thing anymore?

In fact, there are still some around. In 2e sources, nupperibos are called out as larval baatorians spawning from the plane. The baatezu corral them, send them to die in the Blood War, and convert the suvivors into lemures. Also, the lies they tell about where they actually come from are pretty much identical with the nupperibo lore in the Fiendish Codex 2. (Also, there's an adventure where the 'loths kidnap a nupperibo and let it grow up. It is on the verge of evolving into something else before the adventures kill it and take its stuff.)
Much more importantly, Baalphegor, Mephistopheles' consort, is a honest-to-evil Ancient Baatorian (and the main reason why Asmodeus doesn't just smite him: she scares him a little).

This, incidentally, is another counterpoint to dancrilis' idea: the Hells haven't accepted the baatezu yet as their ultimate masters (as the Abyss did when it stopped spawning obyriths and started making tanar'ri), and there are baatorians high up in infernal society. For all we know, the baatezu are just squatters, doing their thing at the baaatorians' sufferance.

Isn't the obyriths' thing being STARK RAVING MAD?

Fun fact: this is more true of baernoloths than of obyrith. The "base" baernoloth that got stats in 2e is a wretched thing wandering Hades and spinning crazy schemes while muttering: "I'll show them. I'll show them ALL!"

[Metastachydium]

The Obyriths' thing is having auras that drive other people who see them a little mad (exact form depends on the obyrith. People who see Dagon, for example, become phobic about the sea, if they fail a save).

Fun fact: this is more true of baernoloths than of obyrith. The "base" baernoloth that got stats in 2e is a wretched thing wandering Hades and spinning crazy schemes while muttering: "I'll show them. I'll show them ALL!"

Heh. Yeah, I think I got confused [snicker] by Form of Madness there.

In fact, there are still some around. In 2e sources, nupperibos are called out as larval baatorians spawning from the plane. The baatezu corral them, send them to die in the Blood War, and convert the suvivors into lemures. Also, the lies they tell about where they actually come from are pretty much identical with the nupperibo lore in the Fiendish Codex 2. (Also, there's an adventure where the 'loths kidnap a nupperibo and let it grow up. It is on the verge of evolving into something else before the adventures kill it and take its stuff.)

So, what you're saying is that Lee might be a nupperibo?

Much more importantly, Baalphegor, Mephistopheles' consort, is a honest-to-evil Ancient Baatorian (and the main reason why Asmodeus doesn't just smite him: she scares him a little).

Oh. I didn't know that. Still, it continues to sound like Baatorians are really not their own thing anymore, playing a game separate from that of the other devils.

[brian 333]

I personally doubt we'll learn much about the organization of the lower planes in the story. Roy's unlikely to go there, and when we do encounter any of the fiends it will likely be as part of the IFCC plot.

Leaving the details unexplained until needed allows the author maximum flexibility in assigning roles and deeds, while detailing the fiendish hierarchies takes valuable writing time better spent on advancing the story.

So, headcanon it the way you like, and if the author doesn't say otherwise, you're right!