Project Black Flag playtest has begun!

[jjordan]

I don't know why people ever expected PBF to produce anything other than a near 5e product. Those publishers have a boatload of 5e compatible IP they don't want to have to rewrite AND they want to remain compatible with D&D moving forward, it's still the biggest game in the US market by far.

[Easy e]

Yeah, staying 5E adjacent is a smart business move on Kobold's part. I mean, it isn't even breaking new ground, as this course of action and approach has all ready seen success with Paizo/Pathfinder.

I had no expectation that they would break hard from 5E. However, since I am not that into D&D mechanics of any type, seeing it is just a re-skin of 5E does not make me inclined to try it further.

[Lemmy]

Well, forgiving WotC this easy is pretty harmful to the industry and hobby as a whole, IMO... But I don't judge anyone who decides to try PBF or even stick with D&D, if they want... I don't think that makes anyone a bad person.

Life is short. Play the games you want to play. Watch the movies you want to watch.

Personally, however, I won't support WotC any time soon (because of what they did) and I won't support 5e-adjacent products, even if they are not from different companies, because I don't find those mechanics to be very fun or interesting.

Best of luck to KP, but I now have zero interest in their new product and will think twice before supporting them in the future.

[Sparky McDibben]

Again, it's because they could not make a near 5e product if they weren't able to / willing to use the OGL.

No OGL = No near-5e product.

Disagree. I think their play all along was to basically revise the 5E system (like they're doing now) to operate outside the OGL and then just continue on as 6E dropped. I suspect they're continuing with this play because none of the conditions have really changed except maybe they have more freedom with hacking base 5E. They obviously don't trust that 6E will play nice with 3PP, and they obviously want to insulate their business from future bad actors at WotC. Hence PBF.

[KorvinStarmast]

Life is short. Play the games you want to play. Watch the movies you want to watch.

We do that. Our usual group plays D&D 5e because we enjoy it. I'll be seeing the D&D movie. Planned that long before this issue was raised. (I hope it's enjoyable, but then, I hoped that Rings of Power would be a good mini series and ... well...discussions elsewhere on that.

[Brookshw]

Disagree. I think their play all along was to basically revise the 5E system (like they're doing now) to operate outside the OGL and then just continue on as 6E dropped. I suspect they're continuing with this play because none of the conditions have really changed except maybe they have more freedom with hacking base 5E. They obviously don't trust that 6E will play nice with 3PP, and they obviously want to insulate their business from future bad actors at WotC. Hence PBF.

I'm with Tanarii, when they said they were making a new RPG, I understood that to mean "new". What we're seeing now is just more of their product line, if they had said "in response to WoTC's new OGL were going to release more of our standard content", I'd have had a very different reaction.

[Psyren]

Treantmonk looked through the playtest packet and my reaction pretty much echoes his. The document provided is 70% unnecessary regurgitation of the 5.1 SRD (I don't need a Kobold Press playtest explaining what dice are) and the stuff that's new is all over the place.

Spoiler

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1) There are numerous basic typographical/proofreading errors throughout the packet (e.g. the roll for stats rules, the XP table, presumably the jump to 3rd-level spell that the Cloud Elf gets etc.)

2) Very sparse. 3 races, 2 subraces each, and then we're at 10 pages out of 12. As mentioned earlier, the bulk of the packet is padding due to SRD regurgitation.

3) Wonky race balance. Grove Elf's climb speed in no way compares to Cloud Elf's 3rd level spell. Fireforge Dwarf's mending cantrip doesn't come close to Stone Dwarf's free Medium armor.

4) Wonky background/talent balance. Combat Casting all but guarantees you'll never have to make a concentration save starting at level 1 - you'd need to take 34 damage in one hit to even need to roll, never mind failure even being likely, and it only gets worse from there. And I don't see why any caster would skip School Specialization, it's the worst kind of feat design (the no-brainer), and being repeatable is utterly bonkers even if (as I suspect) you would need to pick a new school each time. Keep in mind that in Black Flag, you would max out your key ability much faster since everyone can start with 18 now. And all the Technical Talents are garbage.

5) Just generally funny design/interactions. Whoever was in charge of making Hand To Hand apparently doesn't know that everyone is already proficient with unarmed strikes, so at best that part of the feat is redundant, and at worst they're planning to take that away and put it behind a feat tax. And this has the same problem that 1DnD is actually solving, whereby the most intuitive feats for a given archetype had no benefit for that archetype, (e.g. Monks would have no reason to take Hand to Hand). Mental Fortitude means you can use Misty Step to outright end a Forcecage; note I didn't say just escaping from it yourself, you can use that to end the effect completely.

On the positive side, they did do one thing I found interesting. "Heritage" functioning as a sort of portable subrace that can be combined with a different Lineage to represent upbringing (or maybe half-breeds?) is an interesting idea; so if your halfling was raised by Stone Dwarves for example, they'll start with the armor proficiency, smith tools etc that a Stone Dwarf would. It does however mean that being raised by humans is a huge downgrade for most races.

All in all, I don't think Crawford has much to worry about here.

[False God]

Start campaigns with new players in different systems, right, denies the company new customers

But stopping your home game that WoTC isn’t even aware of? That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.

These two lines contradict each other.

My home game promotes WotC's products. My players buy their books, their minis, their accessories and I encourage them to do so. In part because players with more personal ownership of materials IME means they take better care of them, reduces the burden on myself, and means they're more likely to DM in the future. These are all wins for me, and they are also wins for WotC.

My home game is fundamentally no different than a *new game* with *new people*. I encourage my players to participate in the larger hobby, to purchase products, to support FLGS as well as product producers, regardless of what system I'm playing. I buy more books and accessories for whatever game I'm running as well, sometimes out of necessity, sometimes because dangit, that sapphire dragon "mini" looks really cool!

If one of my players wants to run a 5E game and invites me to play, I'll certainly play, to support my friend/player/a new DM. I, however, do not.

There's no magical line between my PUG games at the store and my home games. They're all my games. Boycotts are hard if you really want to make them stick. It means more than just not buying a product, it means changing personal habits and sometimes in ways that really hit home. If you're not willing to make changes in your personal life to support your actions in your public life, why are you bothering?

I don't know why people ever expected PBF to produce anything other than a near 5e product. Those publishers have a boatload of 5e compatible IP they don't want to have to rewrite AND they want to remain compatible with D&D moving forward, it's still the biggest game in the US market by far.

Well, and this may surprise some folks, because ya know, KP said that's what they would do.

So I guess what you're really saying is "I don't know why anyone is surprised another corporation demonstrated they're more interested in money than a healthy hobby space." Yeah okay that's fair.

Yeah, staying 5E adjacent is a smart business move on Kobold's part. I mean, it isn't even breaking new ground, as this course of action and approach has all ready seen success with Paizo/Pathfinder.

But it's important to note Pathfinder stuck to D&D, when WotC didn't stick to D&D(or at least not traditional D&D, I still like 4E dangit!).

There are similarities, but there are important differences. Pathfinder gained monumental success by giving players what they wanted when WotC stuck to their guns about not giving players what they wanted.

5E already gives players what they want and D&DOne is already 5E-adjacent. It continues to give 5E players what they want.

So a 5E "compatible product" will always remain second fiddle to WotC, and will in fact support WotC in remaining the big dog. And that's all "black flag" will ever be, a "5E compatible product." People probably won't even know what it's actually called. It'll just be regarded as some 3rd-party splat for 5E.

Pathfinder, on the other hand, has very clearly distinguished itself as NOT a "3.5 compatible product". And few people would argue (IMO) that even though it is largely compatible, it is also a clearly distinct product.

[Sparky McDibben]

Pathfinder, on the other hand, has very clearly distinguished itself as NOT a "3.5 compatible product". And few people would argue (IMO) that even though it is largely compatible, it is also a clearly distinct product.

Hoss, you are spending a LOT of time and energy opining on something you have no interest in. If that's the case...why are you still here?

[False God]

Hoss, you are spending a LOT of time and energy opining on something you have no interest in. If that's the case...why are you still here?

To encourage other people not to support it.

[SpanielBear]

To encourage other people not to support it.

WoTC didn’t write my game. I did.

They didn’t write the setting, the items, the game hooks. They didn’t do the art. They didn’t have any hand in the homebrew rules I bolted on.

They didn’t create my players characters, didn’t get them excited in their stories.

The books we use, we bought ages ago.

Why the hell is it necessary, to punish *WoTC* for their actions, for us to lose all that? Because, again, even if we did, *WoTC won’t care*!!

(Also, my players are capable of critical thinking and making their own decisions about what they buy, so I find the suggestion that a home game is going to lead them into WoTC corruption, almost Satanic-Panic style, frankly a tad insulting to their intelligence.)

[Brookshw]

Treantmonk looked through the playtest packet and my reaction pretty much echoes his. The document provided is 70% unnecessary regurgitation of the 5.1 SRD (I don't need a Kobold Press playtest explaining what dice are) and the stuff that's new is all over the place.

All fair points.

Combat Casting all but guarantees you'll never have to make a concentration save starting at level 1 - you'd need to take 34 damage in one hit to even need to roll, never mind failure even being likely, and it only gets worse from there. And I don't see why any caster would skip School Specialization, it's the worst kind of feat design (the no-brainer), and being repeatable is utterly bonkers even if (as I suspect) you would need to pick a new school each time.

It was odd to me they simultaneously were developing the Theurge, a class that gets to double concentrate at the risk of easier to fail concentration rolls (so some kinda balance), while also making it easier to bypass that risk. I'm a bit hesitant that we'll be seeing a lot of power creep right out the gate.

All in all, I don't think Crawford has much to worry about here.

It's early still, but, yeah.

[False God]

WoTC didn’t write my game. I did.

They didn’t write the setting, the items, the game hooks. They didn’t do the art. They didn’t have any hand in the homebrew rules I bolted on.

They didn’t create my players characters, didn’t get them excited in their stories.

Then why do you need WotC products to play your game?

I'm not cancelling my games. I'm just moving to a different system. My higher-level game, Pathfinder. My lower-level game, Co/NWoD.

The books we use, we bought ages ago.

Why the hell is it necessary, to punish *WoTC* for their actions, for us to lose all that? Because, again, even if we did, *WoTC won’t care*!!

(Also, my players are capable of critical thinking and making their own decisions about what they buy, so I find the suggestion that a home game is going to lead them into WoTC corruption, almost Satanic-Panic style, frankly a tad insulting to their intelligence.)

Because actions have consequences, and we are already trampled too often by corporations who want nothing more than money.

[SpanielBear]

Then why do you need WotC products to play your game?

I'm not cancelling my games. I'm just moving to a different system. My higher-level game, Pathfinder. My lower-level game, Co/NWoD.



Because actions have consequences, and we are already trampled too often by corporations who want nothing more than money.

Because I _have_ the products. They’re mine. They’re not rented online, it’s a couple of physical books.

I’m confused why, if WoTC is the one who has behaved atrociously, I’m somehow obliged to buy new things to punish them, and anyway how does it punish them exactly? How is that consequences for WoTC?

I’m not buying anything new from them, I’m not subscribing to anything. Since I bought the phb however many years ago I don’t appear on their radar. Whether I stop my game or not *doesn’t make a difference to them.*

[False God]

Because I _have_ the products. They’re mine. They’re not rented online, it’s a couple of physical books.

I’m confused why, if WoTC is the one who has behaved atrociously, I’m somehow obliged to buy new things to punish them, and anyway how does it punish them exactly? How is that consequences for WoTC?

I’m not buying anything new from them, I’m not subscribing to anything. Since I bought the phb however many years ago I don’t appear on their radar. Whether I stop my game or not *doesn’t make a difference to them.*

I explained that previously. Playing their game supports their standing and encourages others to purchase their products and discourages people from trying new systems, playing other games, or increasing the market presence of other systems.

I told you what actions I'm taking and explained why I'm taking them. Your actions are yours, my actions are mine. Yes I'm encouraging people to take the same or similar actions, I'd certainly like if more people took action, but you're hardly obligated to do anything.

And if you aren't buying anything, aren't on their radar and aren't looking for new systems, I might ask you the question Sparky McDibben asked of me: Why are you here?

[SpanielBear]

I explained that previously. Playing their game supports their standing and encourages others to purchase their products and discourages people from trying new systems, playing other games, or increasing the market presence of other systems.

I told you what actions I'm taking and explained why I'm taking them. Your actions are yours, my actions are mine. Yes I'm encouraging people to take the same or similar actions, I'd certainly like if more people took action, but you're hardly obligated to do anything.

And if you aren't buying anything, aren't on their radar and aren't looking for new systems, I might ask you the question Sparky McDibben asked of me: Why are you here?

But if that’s your logic, why is Kobold Press being based on 5e a problem? Because if we’re buying from Kobold press and not WoTC, boycott accomplished, right?

Leaving aside the fact that roleplaying isn’t a zero-sum game, and that I’ve been introduced to many different systems since playing 5e that I play as well- 5e is just a set of rules. What matters in this case is that WoTC not profit from them, correct? in which case, KP bringing out something equivalent is a straight win.

And I’m here because I’m always looking for ways to improve my game. Back to my point about game systems not being a zero sum thing, if there’s a good idea I can find from another source, I’ll cheerfully adopt it where possible.

Edit to add: I should say I’m not looking to convince you or anyone that you should play 5e. I’m just pushing back against what feels like quite a dogmatic stance against a game, that feels excessive if it’s being framed as a moral stance against the company. You don’t want WoTC to profit, but if there are ways to play the game (and legal ones furthermore) that don’t benefit the company, then how can that be objectionable?

[Sparky McDibben]

To encourage other people not to support it.

Awesome! Absolutely none of us are going to support it. Your mission is accomplished. Thank you so much and have a wonderful day!

[False God]

But if that’s your logic, why is Kobold Press being based on 5e a problem? Because if we’re buying from Kobold press and not WoTC, boycott accomplished, right?

No, and I explained why already, you may read a few posts back to see my argument. Supplementary posts can be found in the OGL thread.

Edit to add: I should say I’m not looking to convince you or anyone that you should play 5e. I’m just pushing back against what feels like quite a dogmatic stance against a game, that feels excessive if it’s being framed as a moral stance against the company. You don’t want WoTC to profit, but if there are ways to play the game (and legal ones furthermore) that don’t benefit the company, then how can that be objectionable?

I don't know why people keep construing my dislike of WotC as a dislike of 5E. 5E is an adequate product. I tend to find myself going beyond its bounds more often than not, I think the product has grown a little too wide splat-wise. I don't find it very creative or inventive, it takes the underlying math of 4E and combines it with powered-down elements of 3.5. Neither of these things are new or inventive. It's fine for what it is, I've bought plenty of 5E product and I like it well enough.

But I shouldn't have to defend the fact that I don't hate 5E when I support boycotting WotC. I'm also not playing 3.5. I'm also not playing 4E. I'm also not playing MTG, which I have played far longer and spent far far far more money on.

The point is to not give WotC room in the discussion. It doesn't get to sit at the table. It doesn't get to play with the toys. I gets to sit in a corner and wear a pointy hat and think about what it's done. It doesn't get to hear its name being talked about. It doesn't get to know we're all secretly enjoying its game behind it's back. It gets to know it's in trouble and it gets to know that we are in charge of when it gets out of trouble.

[Mastikator]

There was one thing in the playtest that I thought was really cool. Being able to combine any heritage with any lineage. That's a diamond in the rough.

Besides that I basically agree with what @Psyren said.

Honestly unless they really step up their game I mostly just hope WotC steals that idea from KP. I know, WotC stealing from other creators is taboo, but KP just released a worse 5.1 SRD as a playtest so I don't even feel bad about it. Whoever is making the best product is getting my money, and right now I'm a lot more impressed with 1D&D than I am with BF.

[Lemmy]

We do that. Our usual group plays D&D 5e because we enjoy it. I'll be seeing the D&D movie. Planned that long before this issue was raised. (I hope it's enjoyable, but then, I hoped that Rings of Power would be a good mini series and ... well...discussions elsewhere on that.

More power to you. While I will probably not buy any WotC product any time soon and hope more people choose to do the same... I sincerely hope everyone who decides to buy 5e material (and/or watch the D&D movie) enjoy the product they paid for.

If you ask me, I will tell you it'd be better if you didn't support WotC anymore, at least until there's significant change in how they do business. But if you choose to do so anyway... Well... Have fun! I won't join you, but I won't judge you based on that either.

[Brookshw]

Awesome! Absolutely none of us are going to support it. Your mission is accomplished. Thank you so much and have a wonderful day!

/Shrug. I'm concerned with the quality of the product, if they put something I liked out, I'd consider it. Trust and community don't matter, they sell goods, I evaluate goods, and purchase goods that match my desires. Any other consideration is just noise.

[Sparky McDibben]

/Shrug. I'm concerned with the quality of the product, if they put something I liked out, I'd consider it. Trust and community don't matter, they sell goods, I evaluate goods, and purchase goods that match my desires. Any other consideration is just noise.

I have no problem with "Wait and see." But I have a serious problem with bad faith persuasion to not like something that isn't even out yet. That was how those comments read to me, and why I responded the way I did.

[Brookshw]

I have no problem with "Wait and see." But I have a serious problem with bad faith persuasion to not like something that isn't even out yet. That was how those comments read to me, and why I responded the way I did.

I suspect between you and I that we're experiencing some good old fashioned internet communication accuracy here, though for clarity, my remarks are aimed at WoTC products (and KP, and anyone else for that matter), hence piggy backing on your "absolutely none of us" comment, I generally agree with your points otherwise.

Admittedly, I haven't been impressed with WoTC lately.

[Pex]

No, and I explained why already, you may read a few posts back to see my argument. Supplementary posts can be found in the OGL thread.


I don't know why people keep construing my dislike of WotC as a dislike of 5E. 5E is an adequate product. I tend to find myself going beyond its bounds more often than not, I think the product has grown a little too wide splat-wise. I don't find it very creative or inventive, it takes the underlying math of 4E and combines it with powered-down elements of 3.5. Neither of these things are new or inventive. It's fine for what it is, I've bought plenty of 5E product and I like it well enough.

But I shouldn't have to defend the fact that I don't hate 5E when I support boycotting WotC. I'm also not playing 3.5. I'm also not playing 4E. I'm also not playing MTG, which I have played far longer and spent far far far more money on.

The point is to not give WotC room in the discussion. It doesn't get to sit at the table. It doesn't get to play with the toys. I gets to sit in a corner and wear a pointy hat and think about what it's done. It doesn't get to hear its name being talked about. It doesn't get to know we're all secretly enjoying its game behind it's back. It gets to know it's in trouble and it gets to know that we are in charge of when it gets out of trouble.

Pathfinder became a success because WOTC misunderstood the love people had for the 3E system. Despite all the yelling and crying of the Tier System on this Forum, people loved the 3E system and were perfectly happy to continue playing it. Now people are loving the 5E system and want to continue playing it. They can be angry with WOTC and still want to play 5E. The idea is in the soon to come future those people still get to play the 5E system they love, but now all their money will go to Kobold Press instead of WOTC. Doesn't matter what WOTC does. Doesn't matter how similar D&Done is to what Kobold Press will do. WOTC will have their publicity out there however much you condemn their existence. The people who love the 5E system who like you will not forgive WOTC get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to play 5E and not give WOTC their money. They will buy Kobold Press products. It is not the responsibility of Kobold Press to metaphorically burn WOTC to ashes of complete destruction. You can resent WOTC remains in business all you want. Kobold Press does not deserve condemnation for giving people the 5E they want to play. 5E the game was never the issue.

[Psyren]

The point is to not give WotC room in the discussion. It doesn't get to sit at the table. It doesn't get to play with the toys. I gets to sit in a corner and wear a pointy hat and think about what it's done. It doesn't get to hear its name being talked about. It doesn't get to know we're all secretly enjoying its game behind it's back. It gets to know it's in trouble and it gets to know that we are in charge of when it gets out of trouble.

I can't wait for WotC to release the next 1D&D playtest packet

You speak for yourself and no one else, save those who explicitly declare you speak for them too.

There was one thing in the playtest that I thought was really cool. Being able to combine any heritage with any lineage. That's a diamond in the rough.

Besides that I basically agree with what @Psyren said.

Just to note, Psyren stated the part you agree with too

Honestly unless they really step up their game I mostly just hope WotC steals that idea from KP. I know, WotC stealing from other creators is taboo, but KP just released a worse 5.1 SRD as a playtest so I don't even feel bad about it. Whoever is making the best product is getting my money, and right now I'm a lot more impressed with 1D&D than I am with BF.

It's a nice idea but it needs a lot of work. It's the same problem that the half-breeds would have - anything you can mix-and-match like that needs to be balanced accordingly. And right now, the heritage balance is ridiculous. Compare Cloud Elf and Stone Dwarf to either human for example.

[Kane0]

Hrm, im thinking having heritage might squeeze out background, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how its handled. It could be fine if the benefits are just transferred elsewhere and the flavor becomes an extra side-box like trait/bond/flaw is.

[False God]

You speak for yourself and no one else, save those who explicitly declare you speak for them too.

Yes I believe I stated just that several times.

[stoutstien]

Hrm, im thinking having heritage might squeeze out background, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how its handled. It could be fine if the benefits are just transferred elsewhere and the flavor becomes an extra side-box like trait/bond/flaw is.

I don't mind having both structurally but they both need a lot of polish. Race (stuff that is always applied), heritage (stuff that is culturally constant like languages and major goals), and backgrounds being the fine tuning.

[Mastikator]

It's a nice idea but it needs a lot of work. It's the same problem that the half-breeds would have - anything you can mix-and-match like that needs to be balanced accordingly. And right now, the heritage balance is ridiculous. Compare Cloud Elf and Stone Dwarf to either human for example.

Making a TTRPG is a lot of work. I probably spent 500+ hours when I made mine and it's nowhere near as complicated as 5e. I think if Kobold Press believes they can piggyback ride the 5.1 SRD to make "their own" game they're in for a rude awakening. They should expect to put in at least ten thousand hours of combined work hours to make an adequate product IMO.

[Sparky McDibben]

I suspect between you and I that we're experiencing some good old fashioned internet communication accuracy here, though for clarity, my remarks are aimed at WoTC products (and KP, and anyone else for that matter), hence piggy backing on your "absolutely none of us" comment, I generally agree with your points otherwise.

Admittedly, I haven't been impressed with WoTC lately.

Oh, I'm sorry. Those remarks weren't because of you, but rather another forum member who seemed to be pushing an agenda instead of reviewing the material. Thanks for the gut check!

Edit: KP has released a statement by Celeste Conowitch going over why they're continuing work on Project Black Flag, here: https://koboldpress.com/project-blac...esign-diary-1/

If you prefer audio, here's Ted From Nerd Immersion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_NRjCA8E0

Interesting stuff, and a good take from a pro.

Also, Mastikator's 10,000 hours comment got me curious. How long does it take to put that together?

Assumptions:
Standard US working week (40 hours per person).
Zero freelance work (conservative assumption).
10,000 hours is all-in (including writing, editing, layout, art direction, etc).

Conowitch stated on a recent stream that they have like 12 people at KP.
Let's assume, for a project of this magnitude, that they have the majority of those folks engaged with Black Flag - 8 heads working production and two managers (who we're not going to count toward production).

Let's further assume about 25% vacancy (the amount of time you spend every week not doing your main job - meetings, getting up to take a leak, watercooler gossip, etc), so that means 8 heads each working about 30 hours per week, or 240 production man-hours per week.

That means that to hit our 10,000 man-hours will take about 41 weeks, or just shy of 10 months.

Assuming playtest packets drop every two weeks for six months, that means about 12 packets, which seems light to me. Maybe 8 months? That's 16 packets, so that's about one per SRD class, plus one for races (as we saw), one for spells / spellcasting, and two more, probably for DM guidance or monster design.

That leaves about two months to synthesize feedback, assemble a completed project, and then run with that ball.

Tight, but do-able.