BisectedBrioche's Brilliant Bread Random Banter Bthread #243

[Rynjin]

I'll grant you 4, but 3 isn't an answer, and 1 and 2 are not a factor in regards to gay marriage. It's the change in number of people, not type of people, that causes the impossible legal snafu.

The only thing required to make gay marriage fully legal (and interracial marriage before it) was for courts to say "yeah marriage is just two people, ain't nothin' said about what kind of people we got here". There was not to my knowledge any specific definition of marriage that precluded gay or interracial marriages, it was laws added after the fact which forbid them, and those laws could be repealed.

Nothing about the system actually needed to be changed except to remove artificial shackles imposed on the existing laws from outside of them.

But there is an actual legal definition that requires marriage to be between two people, and everything else flows from that. You cannot simply change that one line and expect everything to be okay. Question 1 is a legitimate one, because you would essentially have to repeal all existing marriage laws and then replace them all with something else. All existing marriages would now have no legal standing to exist.

I genuinely don't see that ever happening. There's a world I think where a different "type" of marriage is implemented and follows its own rules, if polyamory ever becomes common enough for that to be on the radar, but that's always going to carry with it "separate but equal" connotations that might make this solution unpalatable to the people who would be making use of it.

[Peelee]

I don't think you're gonna find anyone who can successfully bell the cat, as you say, on a tiny forum like this. I don't think the discussion was "hey lets brain storm how to actually do the logistics of this" and was more "man it'd be nice if I could marry my partners in a way that the world legally recognized".

And moving from a single country to the world just expanded to scope immensely, which is no small feat when it was already so massive.

Again, I'm offering no judgment or opinion on whether it should be done or not. I'm outlaying a very brief intro to all the difficulties and problems that are inherent in such a venture. These logistical hurdles (to be generous. The hurdles are more akin to Hoover Dams, and there are so, so many of them) may simply make it a non-starter.

ETA: i have been very careful to make sure none of the reasons i listed apply to gay marriage, which is still limited to two people. Every logistical issue i have pulled out have been based on the inherent problems in multiple-person marriages.

[LaZodiac]

I'll grant you 4, but 3 isn't an answer, and 1 and 2 are not a factor in regards to gay marriage. It's the change in number of people, not type of people, that causes the impossible legal snafu.

The only thing required to make gay marriage fully legal (and interracial marriage before it) was for courts to say "yeah marriage is just two people, ain't nothin' said about what kind of people we got here". There was not to my knowledge any specific definition of marriage that precluded gay or interracial marriages, it was laws added after the fact which forbid them, and those laws could be repealed.

Nothing about the system actually needed to be changed except to remove artificial shackles imposed on the existing laws from outside of them.

But there is an actual legal definition that requires marriage to be between two people, and everything else flows from that. You cannot simply change that one line and expect everything to be okay. Question 1 is a legitimate one, because you would essentially have to repeal all existing marriage laws and then replace them all with something else. All existing marriages would now have no legal standing to exist.

I genuinely don't see that ever happening. There's a world I think where a different "type" of marriage is implemented and follows its own rules, if polyamory ever becomes common enough for that to be on the radar, but that's always going to carry with it "separate but equal" connotations that might make this solution unpalatable to the people who would be making use of it.

Entirely fair. In defense of my none answer of 3... well, what do you expect me to do, give a rough estimate? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. It'd probably take a few years.

To answer the rest a bit better, then...

1: "Marriage is between Two or More people" is the only change that needs to be made. This doesn't annul any other marriage. Easy, on that front.
2: Genuinely I don't think this matters at all. Lawyers are smart, they can adjust to changes in the law. That's flat out just not my problem.

And moving from a single country to the world just expanded to scope immensely, which is no small feat when it was already so massive.

Again, I'm offering no judgment or opinion on whether it should be done or not. I'm outlaying a very brief intro to all the difficulties and problems that are inherent in such a venture. These logistical hurdles (to be generous. The hurdles are more akin to Hoover Dams, and there are so, so many of them) may simply make it a non-starter.

ETA: i have been very careful to make sure none of the reasons i listed apply to gay marriage, which is still limited to two people. Every logistical issue i have pulled out have been based on the inherent problems in multiple-person marriages.

Also entirely fair. I could brainstorm ideas to answer those concerns, but I don't really have a need, want, time to do that for these far more indepth topics.

[Rynjin]

Entirely fair. In defense of my none answer of 3... well, what do you expect me to do, give a rough estimate? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. It'd probably take a few years.

To answer the rest a bit better, then...

1: "Marriage is between Two or More people" is the only change that needs to be made. This doesn't annul any other marriage. Easy, on that front.
2: Genuinely I don't think this matters at all. Lawyers are smart, they can adjust to changes in the law. That's flat out just not my problem.

I really wish 1.) was that simple, but it's not. Peelee already posted one particular bit of WTFery that comes from that "simple" change (how do you handle divorce?), and there's plenty more things cropping up in there.

You'd have to throw laws on top of laws just to patch up holes like that, which would be stuff like "a marriage involving three or more people needs an ironclad prenup" that effectively brings us back to "separate but equal" marriage.

[LaZodiac]

I really wish 1.) was that simple, but it's not. Peelee already posted one particular bit of WTFery that comes from that "simple" change (how do you handle divorce?), and there's plenty more things cropping up in there.

You'd have to throw laws on top of laws just to patch up holes like that, which would be stuff like "a marriage involving three or more people needs an ironclad prenup" that effectively brings us back to "separate but equal" marriage.

Honestly just make the ironclad prenup thing natural to all marriages. That seems reasonable.

Also I'm not sure how complicated it would be. If two people marry me, but don't marry each other, and I divorce one, the other two don't have any connection. If we all mutually married each other than yet, if I divorce X, all the other unions are still there. That feels like a common-sense law.

[Anonymouswizard]

What happens if the people in ques move to a country that doesn't recognize "Marriage 2: This Time It's Polygamous" as a valid marriage?

Slight note, we're not talking about polygamous or polyandrist marriage system, at least not strictly. It'll cover such cases, which is a feature and not a big, but we're specifically looking at all potential combinations of gender.

Sorry, for me 'polyamory=polygamy' is an even bigger bugbear for me than 'polyamory=cheating'. Polygamy and polyandry are specific subtypes of polyamory.


On polyamorous marriage, Peeler you bring up some good points, but they're never going to make me go 'polyamorous marriage shouldn't be a thing'. They're issues, but they're ones with solutions, even if the solutions are imperfect*. They might also be solutions that take decades or centuries to develop before they're practical, in which case the best time to start developing them is now.

Next you'll be telling me it's impractical for a kid to have three parents.

* And let's not pretend that the ones in the current system aren't.

[Peelee]

Honestly just make the ironclad prenup thing natural to all marriages. That seems reasonable.

That already is a thing. If you forgive the legal jargon, it's called, "marital assets split during divorce evenly between the people getting divorced". People get greedy or vindictive or have considerable assets and that's usually when lawyers get called in, but still, it's already the default. However, when there are more than two people and not all of them are getting divorced that gets incredibly complex incredibly quickly.

On polyamorous marriage, Peeler you bring up some good points, but they're never going to make me go 'polyamorous marriage shouldn't be a thing'.

Spoiler: Which one?

Show

Also, i would like to note there is a vast difference between "shouldn't" and "may not logistically be able to", as far as "be a thing" goes.

Next you'll be telling me it's impractical for a kid to have three parents.

I see no logistical issues with that (and, if anything, probably more stable life for any kids, with either more paychecks or more SAH parents).

I defo see logistical issues with three or more parents determining custody in the event of divorce, which would be detrimental to a child's stable home life. Hell, a two-parent custody agreement can be disruptive enough to be detrimental.

[Jasdoif]

In games that support them as valid warrior weaspons I'm quite fond of spears. Infantry sabres are a good backup, and only then do I go for the axe or hammer. No preference beyond that, because while fantasy games may not make spears viable and might not even have sabres, they'll definnitely have an axe or hammer.

Sil still has the best great spears. Sure, a shortsword is better when you're sneak attacking everything; but a great spear is surprisingly good at it as well (thanks to its huge damage die and how Sil models crits as extra dice for how much you beat AC by) and performs much better against things that see you or resist critical hits.

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As for who'd do this? Not any of us, half of us are too busy saying "man it'd be nice if..." and the other half are busy saying "um actually that would be very difficult".

Yeah. We're aware. That's why we say "man it'd be nice if..." in the first place. I think y'all are taking this way too seriously.

I think it's not being taken seriously enough. I may be biased because this is largely what I do for a living (with software, which presents a completely different set of problems; in the same way that writing code and writing fiction are fundamentally different), but the key to approaching any seemingly insurmountable task is to take what you want to accomplish, break it down into smaller tasks to reflect how you intend to accomplish it, break those tasks down into smaller tasks to reflect how you intend to accomplish those; repeat until you've got tasks that are manageable; act on those tasks, string them all back together in order, and boom, done!

This is of course a highly idealized view; the work/constraints/risks vary wildly, and you may find yourself lacking ability/knowledge/willingness to go certain directions....But you need to start somewhere, and if you're not starting from an ideal position, what is it you're expecting to accomplish? And who knows, maybe going through the whole process will garner you a better understanding/appreciation what you want to achieve; which is useful even if you decide/discover you're stumped on some of the steps.

The pithy phrase is "no one ever accomplished the impossible by dreaming short of it"; but the underlying facts of the matter are that "impossible" is sometimes faulty perception rather than objective truth, you'll never see an opportunity you don't know to look for, and perhaps the only thing worse than never pursuing your dreams is flailing futilely because you're burning up your energy trying to pursue them without an idea of how to grasp them.

[halfeye]

...

on a tiny forum like this.

...

Eh, this is probably the most populous forum I frequent.

[LaZodiac]

Sil still has the best great spears. Sure, a shortsword is better when you're sneak attacking everything; but a great spear is surprisingly good at it as well (thanks to its huge damage die and how Sil models crits as extra dice for how much you beat AC by) and performs much better against things that see you or resist critical hits.

---

I think it's not being taken seriously enough. I may be biased because this is largely what I do for a living (with software, which presents a completely different set of problems; in the same way that writing code and writing fiction are fundamentally different), but the key to approaching any seemingly insurmountable task is to take what you want to accomplish, break it down into smaller tasks to reflect how you intend to accomplish it, break those tasks down into smaller tasks to reflect how you intend to accomplish those; repeat until you've got tasks that are manageable; act on those tasks, string them all back together in order, and boom, done!

This is of course a highly idealized view; the work/constraints/risks vary wildly, and you may find yourself lacking ability/knowledge/willingness to go certain directions....But you need to start somewhere, and if you're not starting from an ideal position, what is it you're expecting to accomplish? And who knows, maybe going through the whole process will garner you a better understanding/appreciation what you want to achieve; which is useful even if you decide/discover you're stumped on some of the steps.

The pithy phrase is "no one ever accomplished the impossible by dreaming short of it"; but the underlying facts of the matter are that "impossible" is sometimes faulty perception rather than objective truth, you'll never see an opportunity you don't know to look for, and perhaps the only thing worse than never pursuing your dreams is flailing futilely because you're burning up your energy trying to pursue them without an idea of how to grasp them.

All of this is true, but misses the forest for the trees- none of us are in the position necessary to act upon any brainstorming we make on it. While it would certainly be amusing and perhaps enjoyable to construct all of it, the main deciding factor on whether we COULD affect that change is whether or not we're ACTUALLY able to do so from our position.

I don't know about you, but Anon's in the UK and I'm Canadian. I don't think we're going to be challenging law and changing precedent where we are, let alone elsewhere.

To clarify my point a bit: I just think it's unnecessarily aggro to see someone pining over a wish and going "well why haven't you started working on actionable ways to make your dream a reality then?"

Eh, this is probably the most populous forum I frequent.

Both this and what I said can be true at the same time.

[Peelee]

Both this and what I said can be true at the same time.

Yep. Old-style forums like this aren't as popular as they used to be.

[Mystic Muse]

I believe the 10th of this month will be the 14th anniversary of me being on this forum.

[Peelee]

I believe the 10th of this month will be the 14th anniversary of me being on this forum.

Looks about right.

[LaZodiac]

Yep. Old-style forums like this aren't as popular as they used to be.

Sad but true. Discord is introducing forum like integration but it's all garbage and bad compared to this.

I believe the 10th of this month will be the 14th anniversary of me being on this forum.

Me but twelfth, somehow.

I'm aghast at how many of you I still recognize from those early days, and saddened by how few remain, but it's the way of things. If this place does eventually just kinda, cease, you all know where to find me if you care to.

------

On a less depressive note, a question that I imagine some of y'all might be weird enough to know; what is the origin of the phrase "*touches ground* something bad happened here"?

[HalfTangible]

So...

Reborn As A Vending Machine I Now Wander the Dungeon

This is a real light novel title

And now it's getting an anime

So finally I can stop clarifying that it's a light novel when talking about insane isekai titles

[LaZodiac]

So...

Reborn As A Vending Machine I Now Wander the Dungeon

This is a real light novel title

And now it's getting an anime

So finally I can stop clarifying that it's a light novel when talking about insane isekai titles

This is so nothing that it beggars belief.

To clarify; neat, but is there anything worth saying beyond "wow the title and concept is B Grade Weird"? Thanks to the wonder of modern day localization so much **** gets brought over that a lot of this is basically just chaff that no one would notice over here if not for the kinda weird concept. This is not to say you aren't bringing anything of course, I think it's neat to note when stuff like this does get an anime, I'm just looking at the news and going "okay, so?" and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Basically, does this have anything of value to it? Cause I know some series that have come out recently that beyond the title and concept, are bad to the point of "if I did more than allude to the contents of it I'd be turbo banned", and that's a sort of value.

[Rynjin]

------

On a less depressive note, a question that I imagine some of y'all might be weird enough to know; what is the origin of the phrase "*touches ground* something bad happened here"?

I don't think it's from anything specific, it's just a general stereotype for "tracker types" in media. It's in a lot of Westerns, where the Native American will grab some dirt and just let it fall through his fingers and go "Something terrible happened here, follow me", etc.

I tried to see if there was a KYM entry on it, but the only entry I could find was this image with the "touches ground" meme as a caption.

Spoiler: *kneels down and touches dirt* "Something terrible happened here

Show

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...0/233/457.jpeg

[LaZodiac]

I don't think it's from anything specific, it's just a general stereotype for "tracker types" in media. It's in a lot of Westerns, where the Native American will grab some dirt and just let it fall through his fingers and go "Something terrible happened here, follow me", etc.

I tried to see if there was a KYM entry on it, but the only entry I could find was this image with the "touches ground" meme as a caption.

Spoiler: *kneels down and touches dirt* "Something terrible happened here

Show

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...0/233/457.jpeg

Yeah, I figure it's from that sorta media, but I'm curious where THEY got that from, and what the first one of that is.

God I love that tweet. Thank you for reminding me.

[Jasdoif]

All of this is true, but misses the forest for the trees- none of us are in the position necessary to act upon any brainstorming we make on it. While it would certainly be amusing and perhaps enjoyable to construct all of it, the main deciding factor on whether we COULD affect that change is whether or not we're ACTUALLY able to do so from our position.

Okay....But if it's ever going to happen someone's going to do it, and if someone's going to do it then someone's going to have an idea how to do it, and there's no specific reason that the someone with the idea how to do it can't be (or be inspired) by what someone here comes up with. The means and the ideas don't have to come from the same person...I don't know everyone I'll ever meet, or everyone who'll ever see any of my posts (hi!); and I certainly don't know what any of them are potentially capable of.

Whether or not you think it's a worthwhile use of your time is of course up to you....but if being a melodramatic musafolk muttering about methodology is all I can do to shift someone's general stance from "this would be nice, but it's hopeless" to "this would be nice, let me think how it could possibly happen", that seems fruitful enough to me. (And/Or I still don't have a good sense of when to shut up....)


That is the a forest. If we want to talk about the tree...I feel that the intertwining between law and marriage has become more and more gross as marriage has become less obligatory and more elective over the centuries, and that excising portions of those laws is at least as viable as mutating them; where the law doesn't care that you're married, who and how many won't even matter. Still runs into the same implementation difficulty, mind you....

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I figure it's from that sorta media, but I'm curious where THEY got that from, and what the first one of that is.

God I love that tweet. Thank you for reminding me.

It's a classic, yeah. Never fails to make me go *snrk*

Anyway, that kind of media gets it from just...general stereotyping. Native Americans were very much believed at some point in time to have near-supernatural (or even WHOLLY supernatural) tracking skills and "connection to nature". That stereotype endured for a very, very long time.

"Ranger" type characters like Aragorn also dip into this, and I imagine the Peter Jackson LotR films helped to repopularize the image of the tracker kneeling down and letting the dirt run through their fingers before gleaning WAY too much info from a simple glance.



Right after he break toe, he break the case

[HalfTangible]

This is so nothing that it beggars belief.

To clarify; neat, but is there anything worth saying beyond "wow the title and concept is B Grade Weird"? Thanks to the wonder of modern day localization so much **** gets brought over that a lot of this is basically just chaff that no one would notice over here if not for the kinda weird concept. This is not to say you aren't bringing anything of course, I think it's neat to note when stuff like this does get an anime, I'm just looking at the news and going "okay, so?" and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Basically, does this have anything of value to it? Cause I know some series that have come out recently that beyond the title and concept, are bad to the point of "if I did more than allude to the contents of it I'd be turbo banned", and that's a sort of value.

I thought it was neat so I decided to comment.

That's it.

[LaZodiac]

I thought it was neat so I decided to comment.

That's it.

Fair enough. It IS neat, though for me it's more of a "wow, there's a lot more trash out there than I expected" sort of neatness. Back in my day pretty much only the best (or least worst...) got brought over. Nowadays it's so relatively easy to get this stuff brought over that we're getting like, dozens of shows a season and too many light novels to count. It's fascinating.

[Amidus Drexel]

Every day I resist the temptation to buy a sword fully based on the back of "no, that's too much, even for me".

I'd love to have a sword, but where would I put it? Hanging above my guitars? With any reasonable sized sword, that'd just look tacky.

Now, a good polearm, on the other hand...

Sad but true. Discord is introducing forum like integration but it's all garbage and bad compared to this.

Me but twelfth, somehow.

I'm aghast at how many of you I still recognize from those early days, and saddened by how few remain, but it's the way of things. If this place does eventually just kinda, cease, you all know where to find me if you care to.

At a previous job (and not that far in the past - this was only six or seven years ago), we all used IRC for internal communications. It was garbage, but also really nice in many ways. I liked the simplicity of it. Now it's a struggle to get family members off of social media platforms I refuse to use (e.g. facebook) and to just send text messages (or use discord) like a normal person.

Over a decade for me too. My, how the time has flown. I'll still never be part of the "old guard", but I've been around for over half the forum's life (Giant's join date is '03, and he's presumably the first user).

Frankly, I'm amazed I'm still here at all. I find it hard to meaningfully contribute to any online discussions these days, even for the handful of things I have intimate knowledge of. To think I used to spend almost all of my free time on here.

[LaZodiac]

I'd love to have a sword, but where would I put it? Hanging above my guitars? With any reasonable sized sword, that'd just look tacky.

Now, a good polearm, on the other hand...



At a previous job (and not that far in the past - this was only six or seven years ago), we all used IRC for internal communications. It was garbage, but also really nice in many ways. I liked the simplicity of it. Now it's a struggle to get family members off of social media platforms I refuse to use (e.g. facebook) and to just send text messages (or use discord) like a normal person.

Over a decade for me too. My, how the time has flown. I'll still never be part of the "old guard", but I've been around for over half the forum's life (Giant's join date is '03, and he's presumably the first user).

Frankly, I'm amazed I'm still here at all. I find it hard to meaningfully contribute to any online discussions these days, even for the handful of things I have intimate knowledge of. To think I used to spend almost all of my free time on here.

See a polearm would be nice (I've always been a bit of a spear gal myself) but they're so... very long. Can't even swing them around in my room to analyze the weight for writing and stuff.

IRC is a little before my time, honestly.

God, same. I mostly stick to the small haunts I inhabit, in the vainglorious hope that someone will notice my again. But I don't mind it, the connections I have made here will last the rest of my life.

[Keltest]

See a polearm would be nice (I've always been a bit of a spear gal myself) but they're so... very long. Can't even swing them around in my room to analyze the weight for writing and stuff.

IRC is a little before my time, honestly.

God, same. I mostly stick to the small haunts I inhabit, in the vainglorious hope that someone will notice my again. But I don't mind it, the connections I have made here will last the rest of my life.

A proper polearm is a formation fighting weapon anyway. Theres a reason that all the heroes get swords and axes, and why the sword was the iconic knightly weapon.

[LaZodiac]

A proper polearm is a formation fighting weapon anyway. Theres a reason that all the heroes get swords and axes, and why the sword was the iconic knightly weapon.

*looks at my abundance of heroes that use polearm weaponry* Yeah, definitely, definitely.

(realistically, while a sword is the iconic knightly weapon, and is used as such, a spear carries a lot of weight to it. This is the weapon of the people- a sharp stick that anyone can use.)

[DataNinja]

God, same. I mostly stick to the small haunts I inhabit, in the vainglorious hope that someone will notice my again.

That's a mood. I pretty much just stick around here. But, then again, I haven't even hit a decade in this place.

[Anonymouswizard]

*looks at my abundance of heroes that use polearm weaponry* Yeah, definitely, definitely.

(realistically, while a sword is the iconic knightly weapon, and is used as such, a spear carries a lot of weight to it. This is the weapon of the people- a sharp stick that anyone can use.)

Yep, polearms are peasant weapons. Or at least the easily improvised ones are, I believe stuff like halberds were more of a 'trained soldier' than 'conscripted farmer' deal.

Although the best hero used a longbow, which was also a peasant deal. Of course that's because every man in the country was legally obliged train with it once a week, and he was a peasant in the original ballads anyway.

[Batcathat]

I quite like spears, too. I think it's a combination of the visuals and the implied pragmatism of stabbing people while staying out of their reach. Also, swords are cool but rather overused in a lot of fiction (I prefer crossbows to regular bows for similar reasons).

[Peelee]

A proper polearm is a formation fighting weapon anyway. Theres a reason that all the heroes get swords and axes, and why the sword was the iconic knightly weapon.

Because they all hate being able to attack from range?

That's a mood. I pretty much just stick around here. But, then again, I haven't even hit a decade in this place.

We all appreciate you!