BisectedBrioche's Brilliant Bread Random Banter Bthread #243

[Keltest]

DA2 retroactively makes Anders look a lot worse in Awakening, because now when he says he wants to brutally murder people who inconvenience him and that Ferelden should be more like Tevinter, you know he's being entirely serious.

[Peelee]

Look sometimes dragons need punching. I'm sorry Peelee.

Oh, i completely agree. And that's what other dragons are for.

[Form]

Oh come on, she's not that bad. Kind of cute, honestly. Would hug.

Seems pretty expensive for a hug. You can get more for your soul than a hug. Like, 2 hugs, at least.

The man hates tea, he's clearly somebody no-one in their right mind would romance.

It's foreshadowing. Truly a sign the man is an enemy of all living things.

[Rynjin]

So the gameplay and the plot, basically?

...No? I'm not sure how you gathered that from how I outright said the plot is better and the gameplay is too. A singular plot point in the climax is bad, mostly because it's out of character for the character it's assigned to IMO (though there's debate over this, I understand Zodi's take even though I don't quite agree). And the game is visually boring, because of the reused assets.

DA2 actually really benefited from having a distinct protagonist with a fully fleshed out background instead of the Senor Generico background of the Inquisitor.

[LaZodiac]

DA2 retroactively makes Anders look a lot worse in Awakening, because now when he says he wants to brutally murder people who inconvenience him and that Ferelden should be more like Tevinter, you know he's being entirely serious.

Anders' being all "haha no I'm joking about that stuff... unless (tongue smile emoji)" is a big aspect of his character. Someone who like, is genuinely joking, but clearer has that anger in him.

[Batcathat]

I agree wholeheartedly (though I think of Anders' turn as less character assassination and more the consequence of Justice becoming Vengeance and corrupting him). The reused assets is unfortunate but flat out every other aspect of DA2 is superior, it's fantastic a game. The plot is GOOD! You just have to notice it, which the game makes difficult unfortunately. If it was allowed to be finished properly it would have been amazing instead of simply "I liked it at least".

Yeah, I agree as well. While I do consider DAO to be the better game all things considered (since a lot of things about DA2 are kinda sloppy), I think DA2 has the better plot by far. The one in DAO is well told but I've heard it roughly a billion times before and while the concept of the Archdemon isn't half-bad (I kinda like the God of Beauty being corrupted into a horrible monster) I don't find it very interesting as a villain. Loghain is slightly more interesting, but loses points for looking like the most stereotypical villain ever. I'd put his name in a spoiler, but I think literally no one was surprised when the grumpy advisor who looks like the lovechild of Darth Vader and Voldemort betrayed them.

[Anonymouswizard]

Loghain's betrayal is like 6 hours onto an 80-120 hour RPG, it's not a spoiler because it's a basic part of the setup.

DA:O's story is basically the YA dark fantasy set meal welded onto the standard Bioware plot, complete with a horny lesbian bard to get the teenage boys really exited. Considering I remember the fantasy RPG landscape at the time as being pretty poor it's more than serviceable but it feels somewhat clichéd (hence the Human Commoner Origin being cut). Dragon Age 2 is a much better told story but suffers from it's most interesting villain being defeated two thirds of the way through.


Plus I'll note it's pretty clear the Inquisitor was meant to be at first Hawke, and then a Human Noble, with the actually fun options* being added after fan complaints. Honestly I suspect that the game might have turned out a lot better if the nonhuman options had been planned from the start, I'd particularly love to be able to meet Lavellan's Dalish Clan or Avat/ar's mercenary band (especially because the War Table lets you hire them).

* Yes, I know Male Human Warrior is apparently the most common choice in all three games, it's also one nobody I know actually played.

[Peelee]

* Yes, I know Male Human Warrior is apparently the most common choice in all three games, it's also one nobody I know actually played.

You, and everyone you know, didn't play as every single race and gender?

[HalfTangible]

Loghain's betrayal is like 6 hours onto an 80-120 hour RPG, it's not a spoiler because it's a basic part of the setup.

DA:O's story is basically the YA dark fantasy set meal welded onto the standard Bioware plot, complete with a horny lesbian bard to get the teenage boys really exited. Considering I remember the fantasy RPG landscape at the time as being pretty poor it's more than serviceable but it feels somewhat clichéd (hence the Human Commoner Origin being cut). Dragon Age 2 is a much better told story but suffers from it's most interesting villain being defeated two thirds of the way through.


Plus I'll note it's pretty clear the Inquisitor was meant to be at first Hawke, and then a Human Noble, with the actually fun options* being added after fan complaints. Honestly I suspect that the game might have turned out a lot better if the nonhuman options had been planned from the start, I'd particularly love to be able to meet Lavellan's Dalish Clan or Avat/ar's mercenary band (especially because the War Table lets you hire them).

* Yes, I know Male Human Warrior is apparently the most common choice in all three games, it's also one nobody I know actually played.

The bard is bisexual actually (and maybe it's because Zevran is in the same game but I never saw Leliana as THAT horny). Also for some strange reason people tend to gravitate more towards Morrigan in my experience >.>

DA2 suffers mostly from being incomplete and poorly put together. It had a lot of great ideas but it ended up so rushed that only a few of those ideas had a chance to shine.

[Anonymouswizard]

You, and everyone you know, didn't play as every single race and gender?

The DAO character creator sucks hard for male humans, they tend to look gormless. Plus it's not like there's any origins other than City Elf

I've played DA2 as every class, but almost exclusively as Lady Hawke Esq.

By the time I could play Inquisition I was already baby trans.

Most people I know are either pretty strongly female or don't play CRPGs. For the rest of them, well, Warriors are boring next to Mages.

(Admittedly I personally like Templars, but there's nothing forbidding a Templar from having boobs.)

ETA: Leliana, after bugs are fixed, is clearly on the gay side of the Kinsey Scale. Plus it's kind of unfair to compare anybody's horniness with Zevran.

Admittedly she is technically bi, but a lot of people will claim to be straight while being technically bi.

[LaZodiac]

Loghain's betrayal is like 6 hours onto an 80-120 hour RPG, it's not a spoiler because it's a basic part of the setup.

DA:O's story is basically the YA dark fantasy set meal welded onto the standard Bioware plot, complete with a horny lesbian bard to get the teenage boys really exited. Considering I remember the fantasy RPG landscape at the time as being pretty poor it's more than serviceable but it feels somewhat clichéd (hence the Human Commoner Origin being cut). Dragon Age 2 is a much better told story but suffers from it's most interesting villain being defeated two thirds of the way through.


Plus I'll note it's pretty clear the Inquisitor was meant to be at first Hawke, and then a Human Noble, with the actually fun options* being added after fan complaints. Honestly I suspect that the game might have turned out a lot better if the nonhuman options had been planned from the start, I'd particularly love to be able to meet Lavellan's Dalish Clan or Avat/ar's mercenary band (especially because the War Table lets you hire them).

* Yes, I know Male Human Warrior is apparently the most common choice in all three games, it's also one nobody I know actually played.

Let's just say it is a testament to how good the writer in DAO actually is character wise that poor tiny Zodi enjoyed the game despite missing said bisexual bard lady completely. Stenn very much helped with this. Oghrain and Zevran too, tbh.

[Batcathat]

I feel like Leliana is kind of over-hyped. She's certainly not the worst character, but I think she's pretty far from the most interesting one either. Not sure who I would pick as my favorite from DAO. Sten, probably? Or maybe Shale? (Probably not a coincidence that my favorites are among those not a member of a Fantasy 101 race). I also quite like Wynne, even if she is a somewhat confusing combination of grandmotherly and attractive. (Yes, yes, grandmothers can be attractive, I just don't want the categories mixed up in my head).

[Peelee]

(Yes, yes, grandmothers can be attractive

Spoiler: As proved by David X. Cohen

Show

[Anonymouswizard]

I feel like Leliana is kind of over-hyped. She's certainly not the worst character, but I think she's pretty far from the most interesting one either.

Leliana is very meh. However she is a sexy 'French' bisexual bard nun who you can dress in what's essentially a leather bikini*. It's like the highest fetish concentration of any Dragon Age love interest. Otherwise she's just a very middling character, better than pervert dwarf or Zevran but worse than Sten or Alastair.

Honestly the main reason to even pick her up is that she's built as a utility rogue whereas Zevran goes hard on the backstabs. Meanwhile Sten is mainly worth nabbing for his dialogue, even if his approval can be a bit hard to keep up (you can do a bit by speaking back to him, but he unfortunately tends to disagree with trying to gain any allies).

Really the big issue with Origins is that too many of the dilemmas have Superior Third Options™.

Spoiler

Show

I've just completed Redcliffe again, and for the first time didn't go into the Fade. If you don't bring up going to the Circle it's actually an interesting choice, somebody has to die and it comes down to if you're willing to resort to blood magic or not.

It's especially annoying as they do hint that going to the Circle might have consequences in the death of the town and/or knights, but never follow through on it.

* Or strip her down to her underwear.

[Batcathat]

Really the big issue with Origins is that too many of the dilemmas have Superior Third Options™.

Yeah, I can agree with that (presenting something as an interesting dilemma only to solve it like that frequently bugs me. I still kinda loathe the Deus Ex Turtle in Last Airbender).

A related issue is having to unlock specializations by making certain choices in the story. Or rather, that's a pretty interesting mechanic (You wanna be a blood mage? Gotta make a deal with a demon!) but since you only have to unlock them once, it's easy to just make whatever choice and then reload (if it's not already unlocked from a previous game).

[HalfTangible]

Leliana is very meh. However she is a sexy 'French' bisexual bard nun who you can dress in what's essentially a leather bikini*. It's like the highest fetish concentration of any Dragon Age love interest. Otherwise she's just a very middling character, better than pervert dwarf or Zevran but worse than Sten or Alastair.

Honestly the main reason to even pick her up is that she's built as a utility rogue whereas Zevran goes hard on the backstabs. Meanwhile Sten is mainly worth nabbing for his dialogue, even if his approval can be a bit hard to keep up (you can do a bit by speaking back to him, but he unfortunately tends to disagree with trying to gain any allies).

Really the big issue with Origins is that too many of the dilemmas have Superior Third Options™.

Spoiler

Show

I've just completed Redcliffe again, and for the first time didn't go into the Fade. If you don't bring up going to the Circle it's actually an interesting choice, somebody has to die and it comes down to if you're willing to resort to blood magic or not.

It's especially annoying as they do hint that going to the Circle might have consequences in the death of the town and/or knights, but never follow through on it.

* Or strip her down to her underwear.

I have to disagree on Leliana. She's great.

Also I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't like Sten, precisely because he's next to impossible to talk to and I cannot tell what he likes. First time I played I cut Zevran's throat, not realizing he can be a party member because I was very young and very dumb.

[Anonymouswizard]

I have to disagree on Leliana. She's great.

Also I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't like Sten, precisely because he's next to impossible to talk to and I cannot tell what he likes. First time I played I cut Zevran's throat, not realizing he can be a party member because I was very young and very dumb.

First time I played I walked right by the inn where you can recruit Leliana. It's legitimately possible to miss or kill about half the possible party memers in Origins, unlike the later games (you can avoid recruiting Blackwall, Iron Bull, Vivienne, and Sera iun Inquisition, but you're still pointed towards them). I actually like it, even if it makes it possible to be rogueless, it helps get across just how hostile Feralden can be to you after Ostagar.

Sten likes you tl be pragmatic, ruthless, do your job, listen to his criticism, and put him in his place if he gets too uppity. He's also a fan of sarcasm, but hides it behind a perfect deadpan*. His main issue is that he's got a very narrow definition of a Grey Warden's job, to him if you're doing anything other than hunting darkspawn or the archdemon you're not doing your job (to be fair he is technically correct, but only because two major quests require you to break GW political neutrality). He's the only case where I really feel it's necessary to abuse gifts to stay on his good side, he likes visual art.

It's also a bit easier to gain approval after you get him to Warm, at low approval he really doesn't wish to talk. Still not easy, but that's because while Morrigan is the 'evil' party member who promotes selfishness Sten has a consistent but unobvious belief system.

* If you get along well enough with him take him to Haven and play along with his joke for an Aproval boost.

[Batcathat]

First time I played I walked right by the inn where you can recruit Leliana. It's legitimately possible to miss or kill about half the possible party memers in Origins, unlike the later games (you can avoid recruiting Blackwall, Iron Bull, Vivienne, and Sera iun Inquisition, but you're still pointed towards them). I actually like it, even if it makes it possible to be rogueless, it helps get across just how hostile Feralden can be to you after Ostagar.

Now I'm kinda curious what companions you can't miss in DAO. I'm pretty sure you can't avoid Oghren when going into the Deep roads, but maybe you accidentally avoid recruiting him? You can end up killing at least Zevran and Wynne. You can leave Shale a statue (I think? Or is it mandatory to activate her to complete the quest?) and miss Sten and Leliana entirely. You can miss Dog (at least if you're not a human noble) by not doing the quest to heal him. You can execute a certain someone who might otherwise join the party late. Who does that leave? Just Alistar and Morrigan or did I forget someone? Huh, I didn't realize so many were missable.

[Anonymouswizard]

Now I'm kinda curious what companions you can't miss in DAO. I'm pretty sure you can't avoid Oghren when going into the Deep roads, but maybe you accidentally avoid recruiting him? You can end up killing at least Zevran and Wynne. You can leave Shale a statue (I think? Or is it mandatory to activate her to complete the quest?) and miss Sten and Leliana entirely. You can miss Dog (at least if you're not a human noble) by not doing the quest to heal him. You can execute a certain someone who might otherwise join the party late. Who does that leave? Just Alistar and Morrigan or did I forget someone? Huh, I didn't realize so many were missable.

Alastair and Morrigan join automatically, as does Wynne IIRC. Oghren is unmissable but doesn't have to be recruited, the same as Zevran, and I think everybody else you can avoid entirely. In fact I think it's possible to reach the endgame with no companions, at the very least it can just be you and Alastair.

Spoiler

Show

Yes, you can kill Wynne at the top of the tower or refuse to let her come with you after Uldred is dead, but I think that she's mandatory for Broken Circle itself.

For Sten, Leliana, and Dog/Barkspawn/Rabbit/Grigori it's entirely possible to just straight up never talk to them, while Zevran can just be killed before his recruitment dialogue comes up. Even outside of the DLC aspect Shale is missable, but considering she's the only reason you go to the damn village...

Yeah, Origins doesn't hold your hand when it comes to party members. Most don't have to be recruited, I believe two can be dismissed at will, and all bar one will leave if their Approvasl hits rock bottom. If you're a rogue you will at least get the designated tank, healer, and controller without having to search, but it's entirely possible to miss Leliana (designed master of locks and traps) and kill Zevran (only other rogue). I actually like it, even if I do habitually recruit everyone.

[HalfTangible]

Lord, Origins is so good.

I can't friggen believe that DA2 and 3 didn't follow up on the Origin stories idea in any way (ETA: okay DA2 *kinda* does it with meeting Flemeth on the way out of Lothering but that barely even counts). It's just... why, that was the best part of the entire game and that's no small feat! I get that writing a full tutorial section with its own ministory is hard and that some Origins were better than others, but why not (as an example) have the Mage/Templar conclave in Inquisition serve the same role?

[LaZodiac]

First time I played I walked right by the inn where you can recruit Leliana. It's legitimately possible to miss or kill about half the possible party memers in Origins, unlike the later games (you can avoid recruiting Blackwall, Iron Bull, Vivienne, and Sera iun Inquisition, but you're still pointed towards them). I actually like it, even if it makes it possible to be rogueless, it helps get across just how hostile Feralden can be to you after Ostagar.

Sten likes you tl be pragmatic, ruthless, do your job, listen to his criticism, and put him in his place if he gets too uppity. He's also a fan of sarcasm, but hides it behind a perfect deadpan*. His main issue is that he's got a very narrow definition of a Grey Warden's job, to him if you're doing anything other than hunting darkspawn or the archdemon you're not doing your job (to be fair he is technically correct, but only because two major quests require you to break GW political neutrality). He's the only case where I really feel it's necessary to abuse gifts to stay on his good side, he likes visual art.

It's also a bit easier to gain approval after you get him to Warm, at low approval he really doesn't wish to talk. Still not easy, but that's because while Morrigan is the 'evil' party member who promotes selfishness Sten has a consistent but unobvious belief system.

* If you get along well enough with him take him to Haven and play along with his joke for an Aproval boost.

See this is wild to me because staying on Sten's good side was incredibly easy for me.

[enderlord99]

Zodi, what do you think of the basic premise for the latest custom card I linked in the Magic thread?

[Batcathat]

Spoiler

Show

Yes, you can kill Wynne at the top of the tower or refuse to let her come with you after Uldred is dead, but I think that she's mandatory for Broken Circle itself.

Spoiler

Show

No, unless I'm misremembering you can kill her as soon as you meet her. In one recent-ish play through I intended to recruit her but showed some attitude and ended up turning her and her friends hostile (I'm not sure what I did. I think I might've been a little too open to wiping out all the mages if necessary?)

Of course, I might be imagining things. Years ago, I drove myself crazy trying to find the option to stay permanently loyal to UNATCO in Deus Ex which I was so sure I had seen, but it must've been a dream or something.

See this is wild to me because staying on Sten's good side was incredibly easy for me.

Yeah, me too. Of course, a lot of the things listed as being key to bonding with him come very natural to me.

The one I remember having to most issue getting to like me initially was Morrigan. I like playing ruthless anti-heroic characters, but she seem to be more in the market for someone to stomp on random puppets and insult orphans. Granted, she does show some more depth after a while, but still. (And this is coming from someone with a giant soft spot for dark-haired bad girls).

EDIT: Oh, and this talk of getting characters to like you reminds me of another thing I preferred about DA2. I think the friendship/rivalry thing was better than the like/dislike of DAO, especially since it made it easier to combine different companions and have one as a friend and one as a rival, instead of having one like you and one hate you.

[Lord Raziere]

See this is wild to me because staying on Sten's good side was incredibly easy for me.

Yeah, you basically do that by just leaving him behind at camp and taking like anyone else when you like, do things like go fix the dwarves problems or search for Andraste's Ashes. otherwise he turns to you thinking that he still is in his incredibly rigid caste-based society and tries to do things the hard way because apparently the Qun teaches a lot of things but not critical thinking skills or flexibility.

which y'know, is bad enough without all the other stuff its implied to be horrible about, but the Qun was never fully detailed and given how slow any updates to Dragon Age at all have been coming (there was the ttrpg and recently that Dragon Age show that ran for like, 12 episodes or less) its just this vague foreign belief that we'll probably never understand.

[HalfTangible]

Eh... the Friend/Rival thing was a neat idea but ultimately you end up going either all one way or the other with specific companions and all you really get out of it is that none of them will stop hanging out with you until the very end of the game.

[Anonymouswizard]

See this is wild to me because staying on Sten's good side was incredibly easy for me.

He has a lack of starting conversation options and doesn't do well with certain main quests. Stand up to him enough and throw a few paintings in his face and you get both his personal quest and the option to debate philosophy with him, at which point he becomes much easier to become friends with. The issue is less staying on his good side and more getting there in the first place, particularly if you go to Redcliffe first.

His assumption that the Warden is trans is also hilarious.

Unlike Morrigan though there is a logic to his approval gain beyond 'evil'. There's some things that annoy him that are easy to hit, but he's not going to be annoyed at things like giving Kaitlyn and Bella five gold apiece (after all the party has plenty of weapons, armour, and food).

[Batcathat]

Eh... the Friend/Rival thing was a neat idea but ultimately you end up going either all one way or the other with specific companions and all you really get out of it is that none of them will stop hanging out with you until the very end of the game.

Sure, but at least you get more than one potential type of relationship with each companion. If I want to have both Anders and Fenris in my party, for example, it would be very tricky to keep both of them happy using the DAO system, since they disagree on pretty much everything. But instead I can choose between having Anders as a friend and Fenris as a rival or vice versa.

That said, like a lot of DA2, it's a good concept but has some flaws in the execution.

[LaZodiac]

Zodi, what do you think of the basic premise for the latest custom card I linked in the Magic thread?

Interesting concept, exceptionally busted.

Yeah, you basically do that by just leaving him behind at camp and taking like anyone else when you like, do things like go fix the dwarves problems or search for Andraste's Ashes. otherwise he turns to you thinking that he still is in his incredibly rigid caste-based society and tries to do things the hard way because apparently the Qun teaches a lot of things but not critical thinking skills or flexibility.

which y'know, is bad enough without all the other stuff its implied to be horrible about, but the Qun was never fully detailed and given how slow any updates to Dragon Age at all have been coming (there was the ttrpg and recently that Dragon Age show that ran for like, 12 episodes or less) its just this vague foreign belief that we'll probably never understand.

I took Sten basically everywhere. you can convince him to do stuff he doesn't like and get points for it if you successfully explain to him in his terms why this is relevant.

My favorite Stenn fact is that he ****ing adores cookies, a thing that do not exist in his lands since the Qun's demands for perfection means there's no chance they would have had left over dough to make cookie's from in the first place.

He has a lack of starting conversation options and doesn't do well with certain main quests. Stand up to him enough and throw a few paintings in his face and you get both his personal quest and the option to debate philosophy with him, at which point he becomes much easier to become friends with. The issue is less staying on his good side and more getting there in the first place, particularly if you go to Redcliffe first.

His assumption that the Warden is trans is also hilarious.

Unlike Morrigan though there is a logic to his approval gain beyond 'evil'. There's some things that annoy him that are easy to hit, but he's not going to be annoyed at things like giving Kaitlyn and Bella five gold apiece (after all the party has plenty of weapons, armour, and food).

Fair!

God I remember that. What a goof.

Morrigan has a logic to her approval beyond evil. She has "petty" and "for the lolz" and "revenge is good and you deserve it".