OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[Fish]

I support this interpretation. Eugene can't just grow, the author's gotta tell the story of his growth. And tactics is a word I may use in the future.

That was one reason I was convinced it was Eugene, not Julia. Roy genuinely seems to have love for his sister and she for him; they left each other in Cliffport on a good note.

Eugene and Roy, on the other hand, have tons of unfinished business, and it pretty much has to be concluded before the end of the story as opposed to an epilogue; and as Roy is unlikely to spend another duration in Celestia working things out with him, and as Eugene has nobody to talk to, it seemed likely to happen this way. Furthermore, Eugene is such a lying poop bag, the reader wouldn’t believe any off-screen growth anyway.

[Satohika]

Thank you for the new comics Mr. Burlew, but I have a question for you: Was father pretended to be daughter only recently, or it was him who appeared as sister to Roy back on the ship? Please explain. With due respect;

~$atohi Kazuma

[hamishspence]

Thank you for the new comics Mr. Burlew, but I have a question for you: Was father pretended to be daughter only recently, or it was him who appeared as sister to Roy back on the ship? Please explain. With due respect;

Given that the last time "Julia" appeared, "she" said "I can't exactly leave it up to you when it's my future on the line"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html

it seems pretty unambiguous to me that this was what Eugene's referring to in panels 8 and 10:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html

[Kaed]

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

Well, she is, and she isn't.

On the one hand, she's blatantly a kind of meta-commentary on players who play 'lawful stupid' characters, who think being lawful means strictly adhering to the law at the expense of all other considerations such as human dignity, pragmatism, or mercy. The kind of person who plays a paladin so they can arrest the party thief for picking a lock in their line of sight, the meme everyone likes to hate on.

But on the other hand, you have to consider that within the setting itself, her behavior also a commentary on the concept of 'objective' morality that Lawful/Chaotic/Evil/Good implies. She was permitted to act this way not just by the very gods who imbued her with the power to be such a bully, but by the people around her, who tolerated (if sometimes barely) her aggressive, murderous behavior because they felt that in the end, it served a greater good.

People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings, simply because the gods have a secret agenda that involves keeping the Dark One from accomplishing his own. Shinjo admits moments before his own death that he has 'had concerns' about Miko for years, but clearly was blowing them off until she was holding him at sword point.

By the metrics of the world she lives in, her obeying the 'letter' of what 'lawful good' means (destroying evil, upholding the law) was good enough, even if she trampled all over the spirit of it on a daily basis, up until she crossed a moral event horizon that made her behavior no longer acceptable to the gods that had been turning a blind eye to her behavior until then.

Is it any surprise she struggled to accept that she had made a mistake, with her entire life being full of a lack of negative reinforcement towards her bad behavior?

[Peat]

Couple of people have already said this but I really won't be surprised if Roy reveals he knew that was his dad at some point. Going along with someone who thinks they're fooling him so he can fool them is very much in Roy's wheelhouse and I think some of the things he asked and talked about could have been conversational traps to confirm his hunch.

The only real question is whether it's a better story for Roy to be shocked when his father reveals this, or to throw it back in his face that he knew... or to never know at all.

[hamishspence]

People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings, simply because the gods have a secret agenda that involves keeping the Dark One from accomplishing his own.

Some may have Fallen.

Spoiler: The Giant: possible Paladin Falls in Start of Darkness (my underlining of most relevant bits)

Show

Everything you see happened.

However, everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.

Of course, while Redcloak is not narrating the scene, it is shown mostly from his perspective; we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. Whether or not some of the paladins Fell does not bring Redcloak's family back to life. Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene. Showing them Fall or not simply was not important to Redcloak's story, so it was omitted.

Further, it would have cheapened Miko's fall to show the same thing over and over--and Miko, as a major character in the series, deserved the emotional weight that her Fall carried (or at least that I hope it carried).

I hope that clears this issue up. I hope in vain, largely, but there you have it.

(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

[Kaed]

The fact that the concept that some (or all, or none) of the paladins may have fallen off screen doesn't really undermine my point, though. No one was stopping them from performing that slaughter. They went into it believing it was justified.

You can see the echos of this mindset in the main antagonist of How The Paladin Got His Scar, too. Except that time, one man *did* stop them. The fact that he did doesn't obviate the extremely troubling ideological problems that lead to the radicalized behavior.

[Jacky720]

(although still in a selfish way — if the world is destroyed, Eugene will be stuck on a cloud and bored for eternity)

I don't think that's the case. Panel 3 shows that the world being destroyed is a win condition for Eugene. It's just that with the gods in a deadlock, it would be faster for Roy to actually succeed at saving the world.

[georgie_leech]

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.

[Fish]

I don't think that's the case. Panel 3 shows that the world being destroyed is a win condition for Eugene. It's just that with the gods in a deadlock, it would be faster for Roy to actually succeed at saving the world.

Technically, it shows that Eugene thought this was the case at the time. It does not prove it is necessarily the case.

If he is now back, continuing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, it may well be that Eugene now knows this no longer obtains. Otherwise, why show up at all?

[Keltest]

Technically, it shows that Eugene thought this was the case at the time. It does not prove it is necessarily the case.

If he is now back, continuing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, it may well be that Eugene now knows this no longer obtains. Otherwise, why show up at all?

Presumably because he's bored and frustrated with his helplessness, like he said, and wants to do something proactive.

[danielxcutter]

Eugene might be a selfish geezer, but he’s “just” a selfish geezer if that makes any sense. I don’t think he’s actually getting into Celestia, but it’s not like he’s going to the Nine Hells either.

[NobleCuriosity]

Next comic, Eugene walks around a corner, smirks, cackles and turns into Sabine. "There, that will give the little lizard something to think about!"

Next next comic, Sabine teleports out, appears at a desolated goblin village, walks over to a grave, goes down on one knee and says "Father, I shall avenge you!" and turns into Redcloak's niece.

Just want you to know, I smiled at the first paragraph and literally laughed out loud at the second.

[gatemansgc]

was it EVER julia the times she's contacted him claiming she was using the link? now the speculation will go to that!

[brian 333]

So Good can't be cynical then?

Good can be cynical all it wants. Good can't abandon self-imposed obligations until he discovers that doing so causes actual harm to himself, then lie, manipulate, and guilt-trip innocents into fulfilling those obligations, not for their own benefit, but for his.

Eugene will, at the very least, have to stop the very behavior that got him where he is now in order to move on.

[JT]

Yep, called it. As soon as I saw 'Julia' say "stuck up here", I knew it wasn't Sabine.

I thought the first meeting might have been Julia, and Eugene was just copying, but the more I think about it, the custom message thing is just too contrived, really. I think I was just convinced by that one moment where Roy says "I didn't think you would want to help" to Julia, and Julia is actually just lost for words for a moment. Except now I wonder how Eugene took that, hearing his son casually admit he didn't believe his sister would want to help him in a life-or-death end-of-the-world quest. Maybe he's finally realizing just how bad of a job he's done raising his kids...

In addition, in 1193, "Julia" says (panel 9) "So I can't exactly leave it all up to you when it's my future on the line, can I?"

Now, in 1276, "Julia" (right before exposing himself to be Eugene) says (panel 8) "Besides, it's like I said last time we talked..."
And then (after transforming back to Eugene) says (panel 10) "I can't leave it up to you when it's my future on the line."


Eugene himself states that it was him, all the times.



Edit to add: Personal suspicion is that Roy knows, and will say something to let us know that he knows in the next couple updates.

[Aquillion]

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

I'm baffled that anyone involved at any stage of this would even consider the possibility that it could be behind any door (except maybe Team Evil, and even they just don't have much choice because it's currently their only lead.)

Why on earth would it be behind one of the gates? What possible reason could Serini have to make it so any of the doors lead to the gate, when we already know she has an entire secret complex that none of the gates give normal access to?

Like, Roy shouldn't need Haley to explain this to him by now. The ball's not under any of the cups, it's hidden elsewhere. That should have been obvious as soon as they realized that the teleportation trick means the doors don't lead to the "real" complex.

[danielxcutter]

I'm baffled that anyone involved at any stage of this would even consider the possibility that it could be behind any door (except maybe Team Evil, and even they just don't have much choice because it's currently their only lead.)

Why on earth would it be behind one of the gates? What possible reason could Serini have to make it so any of the doors lead to the gate, when we already know she has an entire secret complex that none of the gates give normal access to?

Like, Roy shouldn't need Haley to explain this to him by now. The ball's not under any of the cups, it's hidden elsewhere. That should have been obvious as soon as they realized that the teleportation trick means the doors don't lead to the "real" complex.

That's the point - he's thinking about what Team Evil would do, and what "Julia" was saying was essentially "they probably wouldn't be searching the entire thing because the builders wouldn't have put the prize close to either end".

[137beth]

Hats off to those who called the Eugene reveal.

[The MunchKING]

Given the trouble Roy had getting people to see him when he was dead, I wonder why Bloodfeast can see Eugene at all.

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.

S/he only appeared after Belkar left and Roy was alone.

But Bloodfeast was still there. Did Eugine ever manifest when animals were awake and in the general area before?

[hamishspence]

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.

The last time he was overtly visible, to multiple people, disguised by illusion, was when he had to follow "the normal rules" because the sword had been destroyed:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

Since then, the sword's been fixed.

[Breccia]

was it EVER julia the times she's contacted him claiming she was using the link? now the speculation will go to that!

I don't even know if she's powerful enough to cast a spell to do that.

[Charity322]

Well now I feel dumb. Though I'm really disappointed this all hasn't been character growth for Julia.

And now I have to go back and read all the "obvious" clues I missed.

Speaking of which:




Define "obvious" please.


Powers &8^]

Don't worry. I am dumb too. I also thought that it was cool that Julia was getting involved. I'm kinda tired of Eugene hanging around lol.

Technically Belkar should be able to cast speak with animals, but he used wis as his dump stat lol.

[Rodin]

In addition, in 1193, "Julia" says (panel 9) "So I can't exactly leave it all up to you when it's my future on the line, can I?"

Now, in 1276, "Julia" (right before exposing himself to be Eugene) says (panel 8) "Besides, it's like I said last time we talked..."
And then (after transforming back to Eugene) says (panel 10) "I can't leave it up to you when it's my future on the line."


Eugene himself states that it was him, all the times.



Edit to add: Personal suspicion is that Roy knows, and will say something to let us know that he knows in the next couple updates.

I am loving that the previous conversations are obviously Eugene once you know that it's him. The clues aren't even subtle once you know, but the possibility never occurred to anyone. Or 99%+ I guess, in case anyone did guess it that early.

[Verdruss]

After re-reading the first conversation "Julia" and Roy had, especially the line about "dumping the blood oath" on his kids seems pretty selfreflective for Eugene (I'm convinced it's him there, too). Even though he says "he didn't have a choice", he didn't even need to bring up the point. The "dumping stuff on others" was just mentioned by Roy in passing and taking that keyword and saying something about "dumping the Blood Oath on his kids" feels a little bit remorseful or apologetic, although it could just be "I couldn't finish it myself".

All in all, I really liked the first conversation, especially with all the clues. "See, Dad wasn't THAT bad, right? Right?" Eugene actually cares deep inside about what Roy thinks of him, even if it is only for his own ego to see himself as good.

In hindsight, it would have been really surprising to see Julia contacting Roy about this Lich stuff. She seemed at least as selfabsorbed as Eugene, if not even more in the few strips we saw her and she's 16 17. She has the right to be selfabsorbed and care about other stuff.

It is interesting though why the Giant brings Eugene back into the story. And I don't think he will be an ally. I'm still on team "Eugene will work with the IFCC because all he cares about is destroying the Lich and maybe they can help there to further their plans" (if this team exists, if not, who wants to be captian?) I don't know 'how' exactly but that's my pitch.

[Kish]

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.

Like Fyraltari I just shrugged at "I'll fix it later" and went "I hope you have a backup plan when you inevitably find out your new Sending spell is already as good as it's going to get."

People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings,

Citation needed. Where is there a paladin who killed an innocent goblin and was shown to still have paladin powers after that?

(Now, Gin-Jun should also have been stripped of his powers long before he actually was if I was running things, but Rich is big on inaction not counting against someone.)

[Blue Dragon]

As I said before, it was very obvious that thing claiming to be Julia was none other than Eugene this whole time.

Roy's line in the last panel of stripp 1192 now sounds like either foreshadowing or fridge brilliance.

[Provengreil]

Sure. Stat boosting items like a Periapt of Wisdom for example. Thing is, do we have anything to suggest that he's using those?

I feel pretty confident that he is not.

[Tzardok]

I feel pretty confident that he is not.

I mean, I generally agree with you, but a strip from six books, dozens of towns where you could buy stuff and like 7 character classes ago is not the best support for what items he's got today.

[Provengreil]

I mean, I generally agree with you, but a strip from six books, dozens of towns where you could buy stuff and like 7 character classes ago is not the best support for what items he's got today.

You say that, but The Giant has carefully shown the party acquiring every new magic item they get, sans consumables. Between Belkar not being shown getting an item, never casting any spells either from a list or a scroll, never shown preparing or discussing spells, there's nothing to suggest he's got one.

Conceivably he could have an 11, having had 10 before and added one by levelling as part of his development after the mark of justice fiasco, but there's no real evidence to that either.