MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Precure]

I disagree. MitD IS manipulating and controlling creatures around him, just look at how he played Redcloak and Xykon for fools. If anything, it is us who were stupid to not notice it before.

[Kish]

The issue is not, "How can it say he manipulates and controls?" (although the emphasis on magical mind control is goofy; I trust you agree that whatever happened when he convinced Xykon to hurry to Kraagor's Gate instead of attacking the Order, it wasn't "CHARM MONSTER! You will leave them alone, lich!" "Leave them alone..." The issue is that none of the creature suggestions fit at all: not an illithid, not a beholder, not a non-epic slaad. I suppose ChatGPT is doing better than it might be, in that it didn't say "tarrasque."

[Omomuro]

These candidates sucks. Are they stupid?

Oh no, Arkham memes are leaking

[lio45]

There's clearly a huge difference between Charisma (a measure of force of personality) and physical beauty.

The easiest way to illustrate this: if you're there and not doing anything, anyone judging you only from what they can see will be 0% influenced by your charisma. Say, with a dating app where all you see is a picture of a potential date, and that's it. You can tell if they're ugly or very good-looking, but you can't tell if they have charisma.

Someone can be ugly and have a lot of charisma. That's true both under all D&D systems and in real life.

Sure, being strikingly good-looking does help boost charisma all things being equal, but they're nonetheless clearly different things, as demonstrated by the fact that it's possible to be physically ugly AND highly charismatic at the same time.

And this is kind of on topic for the Circus Scene: if MitD isn't doing anything, then his CHA score shouldn't be in play. I agree one of the points in favor of the Protean is that the Protean totally aces the Circus Scene -- for what that's worth.

[Tzardok]

There's a difference between a picture and being there in person. Charisma can have an effect, even if you don't do anything. It's the "presence" part, when people sit up and take notice just because you're there. If you enter a room and everybody notices you, that's Charisma.

[Ruck]

There's clearly a huge difference between Charisma (a measure of force of personality) and physical beauty.

And there's clearly right there the 3.5 SRD saying that a component of Charisma is physical attractiveness.

[Keltest]

And there's clearly right there the 3.5 SRD saying that a component of Charisma is physical attractiveness.

Well, given that we have characters who are charismatic and also not attractive, we can add that to the list of things that are different between the Stickverse rules and D&D rules.

Seriously Ruck, we have a picture of the protean, and its a hideous blob of flesh, as one would expect. Are you unironically trying to argue that its attractive?

[Peelee]

Well, given that we have characters who are charismatic and also not attractive, we can add that to the list of things that are different between the Stickverse rules and D&D rules.

And attractive without being charismatic (as defined by you - I reject your proposition on Elan having any force of personality).

[Keltest]

And attractive without being charismatic (as defined by you - I reject your proposition on Elan having any force of personality).

Well, Elan has a high charisma stat, regardless of the force of his personality. But yes, the corollary does also stand.

[dancrilis]

While charisma can be used for physical attractiveness you can have a high charisma without it - Erythnul for instance is the god of ugliness and has a charisma score of 29 (in 3rd ed), presumedly he is not regarded as that pretty by anyone.

It should also be noted that attractiveness is somewhat dependant on the observer - maybe otyughs consider each other to be stunningly beautiful but put one in a circus and likely you won't have humans approaching to ask it out (based on appearance alone - it could be a very decent person, a great conversationalist and have an amazing personality).

I would not really be inclined to rate charisma as a stat for the circus scene against virtually any other explanation (i.e looks weird, has insanity aura, etc), but it likely doesn't matter anyway virtually any creature of reasonable power and oddity in appearance or abilities is likely to also have a fairly high charisma when compared with the average human commoner.

[Precure]

Does that mean that Elan's high CHA only works on women and gay men?

[Ruck]

And attractive without being charismatic (as defined by you - I reject your proposition on Elan having any force of personality).

I mean, we've already posted examples of multiple OOTS characters being recognized as physically attractive and having high charisma, and in-universe conflating the two. I don't even understand why people are still trying to argue it's otherwise. It's just ignoring inconvenient evidence.

[b_jonas]

Yes, physical attractiveness is a part of Charisma, but nobody other than Haley cares about that part. More importantly, Charisma also determines how well you can play music, how well you can make speeches, how good a bargain you can get when buying items from shopkeepers. Elan is bad at all of these despite his supposed high Charisma. OotS makes no sense.

[Kish]

Bad at singing, really? He just doesn't have "everyone's going to drop what they're doing and follow him to where he wants them to because he started singing at them" Charisma; one person followed because that's the number a bard below level 18 can make a musical suggestion to.

He also told a very effective speech and got immediate acceptance of his first haggling offer. That he told an extremely demoralizing speech when he meant to tell an inspiring one, that he made an offer he shouldn't have made: these are reflective on his other mental ability scores, his Intelligence and/or Wisdom. Charisma doesn't tell you what you should be trying to convince other people of, it just convinces them.

[Peelee]

Yes, physical attractiveness is a part of Charisma, but nobody other than Haley cares about that part.

Nobody else? You sure?

Samantha also seems to be uncharismatic but attractive. I would argue that in Stickworld, having many points in a stat can be any mix of the attributes said stat grants - such attractiveness without magnetism, for example. And any other combination of one to all attributes.

[woweedd]

I'd argue Elan's Charisma is reflected in his personality as well as his appearance. Sure, he's annoying after long enough, and he's not a manipulator, but Elan's charisma isn't really trained, it's just...Who he is. He's consistently shown as a chill friendly guy. Of all the Order, it's pretty clear he's the easiest to get along with. He's not manipulative, but he is just a likeable, nice dude, and that counts for a lot when getting along with people. His friendship with Thog is good proof of that, and, up until recently, he even probably had the most positive interactions with BELKAR of any member of the party. Sure, Belkar will insult him a lot and once tried to kill him for XP, but he also insisted on trying to save him from the bandits because "he makes me laugh", which, for Belkar at that point in the comic, is an absurdly altruistic act. He's just a likeable guy, ya know? He grates after TOO long, but, for first impressions, there's no one in the Order better.

[Ruck]

Nobody else? You sure?

Samantha also seems to be uncharismatic but attractive.

In the technical D&D sense of Charismatic, she is. In the sense we might use it in the real world as a descriptor, and that I think you meant, she's not. Just to offer some clarity.

I would argue that in Stickworld, having many points in a stat can be any mix of the attributes said stat grants - such attractiveness without magnetism, for example. And any other combination of one to all attributes.

Yeah, that's more or less what I said earlier-- stats reflect a combination of attributes but those attributes manifest themselves in different people in different ways.

[Peelee]

In the technical D&D sense of Charismatic, she is. In the sense we might use it in the real world as a descriptor, and that I think you meant, she's not. Just to offer some clarity.

That's why I changed changed to "magnetism" for the rest of that post, but apparently missed that instance. Charisma is always important for mechanical casting, so bards and sorcs having high Charisma makes perfect sense. For the behavioral/aesthetic fluff, well, that varies character to character.

[Kish]

She's a teenage girl who's able to get a bandit band to follow her without question.

(And before anyone mentions the rule her father set up: both "we're treating that rule as binding even though it now says our leader is someone who wouldn't be old enough to drink if she fell through a portal to the real world and landed in America" and "we're grumbling about her changed policies, but not quietly leaving in the night" are choices, not cosmic laws.)

[Peelee]

She's a teenage girl who's able to get a bandit band to follow her without question.

(And before anyone mentions the rule her father set up: both "we're treating that rule as binding even though it now says our leader is someone who wouldn't be old enough to drink if she fell through a portal to the real world and landed in America" and "we're grumbling about her changed policies, but not quietly leaving in the night" are choices, not cosmic laws.)

It's certainly impressive that Durkon has equal charisma to Samantha.

[Kish]

Because Durkon hung around for an extended period of time, brutalizing the bandits and giving them orders they objected to but obeyed anyway?

(He was able to get a couple of them to comply with an order to "stand here and play along with my delusion that the trees are dangerous so you're guarding against them"; if you consider that comparable to all the things Sam got them to do, well, okay then.)

[Peelee]

Because Durkon hung around for an extended period of time, brutalizing the bandits and giving them orders they objected to but obeyed anyway?

Because, as depicted in the linked comic, he sat on the ground trussed up and still was proclaimed a to be bandit leader and beloved by all.

Yes, following is a choice. However, it is clearly a choice not made based on how magnetic the leader is.

[lio45]

I would argue that in Stickworld, having many points in a stat can be any mix of the attributes said stat grants - such attractiveness without magnetism, for example. And any other combination of one to all attributes.

Exactly, and to me that's obvious. It's what I was saying earlier when pointing out that physical beauty has an impact on the stat, BUT that you can also be very ugly and with high CHA (in which case you'd just have even higher CHA if you were extremely good-looking).

The reason we're discussing this is the Circus Scene: if you're very ugly, but with high CHA, and what you're doing is just standing there, is it reasonable that the viewers will proclaim that you're beautiful?

I stand by my analogy: you're using a dating app of the swipe type, and the next girl you see is very ugly, and you'd normally have swiped her "out" (left, I think?), but since you somehow know she has very high CHA, you're instead swiping her into your "I'm interested" category.

[Throknor]

Because, as depicted in the linked comic, he sat on the ground trussed up and still was proclaimed a to be bandit leader and beloved by all.

Yes, following is a choice. However, it is clearly a choice not made based on how magnetic the leader is.

Yeah... they weren't the brightest bandit band out there. Or they were a parody of the bandit trope that took the 'strongest fighter is the leader' to an extreme example for comedic effect.

Or maybe they weren't atypical at all and bandit bands in the stickeverse just aren't that smart.

Unfortunately, none of those options would make them useful to discuss Charisma in the world.

[Kish]

Because, as depicted in the linked comic, he sat on the ground trussed up and still was proclaimed a to be bandit leader and beloved by all.

Yes, following is a choice. However, it is clearly a choice not made based on how magnetic the leader is.

It's interesting how completely differently people can read things. I'm gathering that "sat on the ground trussed up" is supposed to imply he looked...helpless? nonthreatening? ridiculous? but what I see there, is that the bandits sucking up to him had just seen him quite literally demonstrate that he could effortlessly defeat the strongest of them with both hands tied behind his back.

[Peelee]

It's interesting how completely differently people can read things. I'm gathering that "sat on the ground trussed up" is supposed to imply he looked...helpless? nonthreatening? ridiculous? but what I see there, is that the bandits sucking up to him had just seen him quite literally demonstrate that he could effortlessly defeat the strongest of them with both hands tied behind his back.

Ignoring that he could be neutralized by putting the gag back in or that they had already successfully captured him once, it sounds like you are admitting that their fealty to Durkon had nothing to do with how charismatic Durkon was and everything to do with how powerful he was.

[Kish]

...you seem to have lost track of who was arguing what. You're the one who said that watching them comically toady to him (one of them repeating the exact same lines he'd said to the bandit leader, another switching out one pronoun) showed he had Charisma comparable to the person who was provably able to get them to go along with a lot of changes they complained about over a period of...probably just slightly longer than the time they were obeying Durkon.

So yes, of course I "admit" that their immediate reactions to Durkon's display of raw power do not say anything about Durkon's Charisma.

[Peelee]

...you seem to have lost track of who was arguing what. You're the one who said that watching them comically toady to him (one of them repeating the exact same lines he'd said to the bandit leader, another switching out one pronoun) showed he had Charisma comparable to the person who was provably able to get them to go along with a lot of changes they complained about over a period of...probably just slightly longer than the time they were obeying Durkon.

So yes, of course I "admit" that their immediate reactions to Durkon's display of raw power do not say anything about Durkon's Charisma.

Im sorry, im confused. That comment (which i assumed was readily apparent as sarcastic. I apologize if it was too opaque, and will try to simplify things in the future for you) was in response to you saying that as a teenage girl, she managed to command their loyalty despite their misgivings after i spoke abiut Charisma not necessarily having any magnetism. My read on this was that you were arguing that they followed her because of her magnetism. If not, then i have no idea why you made that post, as it otherwise had nothing to do with the discussion.

In short, no, i haven't lost track of what i was arguing about at all. They followed Durkon (and Samantha) because of their power, not because of any charismatic capabilities they had (or did not have, in both cases).

[Omomuro]

In my view, while a CHA score can be used to argue for some aspects of the circus scene, to what extent can we consider it to be decisive evidence for or against a candidate?

[Kish]

Im sorry, im confused. That comment (which i assumed was readily apparent as sarcastic. I apologize if it was too opaque, and will try to simplify things in the future for you)

Yes, it was apparent that you were implying that Sam, like Durkon, had no Charisma. Somehow you got from there to it being a point against what I was saying that Durkon didn't demonstrate Charisma.

My position is that in light of the bandits having obeyed Sam for an extended period of time when she was explicitly giving them orders they objected to and explicitly brutalized one of them when those orders was questioned, instead of, e.g., sneaking off the second she was no longer directly looking at them, her Charisma score had an effect.

Durkon demonstrates nothing similar because he didn't try to command them for an extended period of time; he disbanded them almost immediately. If he had stuck around for a week acting as bandit leader and still had as many followers as Sam did then the comparison would be appropriate.

I could also mention that Rich explicitly referenced the Leadership feat for why the bandits follow Sam and why her father acts as her cohort, but that post is further back than I can search for. Believe that he said it or don't; I'll be disengaging here either way.