MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Gibbering Orb example mentioned above allows it do to any of that - via eating a spellcaster which can cast shapechange and wish (edit: there is an arguement that could be made that if it took the ability copying a Gibbering Orb who had already fed it would gain the ability without needing to eat personally, and so have permanent access to such powers - I don't like this arguement but it isn't entirely unfair to extrapolate based on how the protean ability seems to work in the lore).

No. The gibbering orb loses any and all such powers 24 hours after ingestion ("Stolen spells and spell-like abilities are lost after 24 hours."). At best, a protean would have to duplicate the ability, find someone to eat, and retain the gibbering orb power for that time. MitD did not eat anyone capable of casting wish in the run up to the escape. Nor can a gibbering orb even swallow whole a dragon, so even in the hypothetical case of any protean, anywhere, you still haven't given me what I requested.

Oh, and it also cannot copy Su or Ex abilities, so that'd still be an issue for creatures with any number of Su powers, and more than 3 Ex powers.

The Divine Mockery plus others example comes close by allowing access to polymorph.

Link?

GW

[Precure]

If you're giving him 18+ class levels, why Protean? He has done nothing that an epic-level sorcerer of any race couldn't do.

I'm probably cheating here, but I find Protean as the best candidate compared to other leading candidates, and Ruck's storyline reasons were convincing.

[Kish]

Okay then. I think accepting "Teleport could do it" would take less of a painful stretch than the 18+ sorcerer levels, but that's me.

[Tubercular Ox]

Both you and the ox.

dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.

[Keltest]

Sorcerer is the easiest class to swallow by far, and a sorcerous awakened plant could certainly be the mitd, but it's the same problem as a template stack in that it's turtles all the way down and the actual creature becomes unimportant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorcerer is the easiest class to swallow by far, and a sorcerous awakened plant could certainly be the mitd, but it's the same problem as a template stack in that it's turtles all the way down and the actual creature becomes unimportant.

I'd rank any class levels under the template stack. At least with templates the creature is definitely born into those powers (and you could squint a bit and argue there might be a clue in the dad's size). Whilst a sorcerer can by lore just develop the powers without studying or practicing, they still need to get XP from somewhere.

But splitting hairs, really. My biggest issue with either templates or class levels is not "how easy it is for a creature to acquire them", it is, as you rightly point out, that the base creature quickly becomes irrelevant.

GW

[dancrilis]

Of course not.

I think we agree here.

Both you and the ox have this weird idea that Rich must care a lot whether some readers are going to be willfully obtuse. Doesn't matter? It will matter totally whether Rich actually made the creature something that could be figured out, and not in the least that some readers will inevitably shake their fists and go "but you contradicted this assumption I made, that's the same as lying!"

Look, in this strip, one of two things happens. The ancient black dragon casts Anti-Magic Field, nullifying the Forcecage, a ruling which at least one person though was wrong as the similar spell Forcewall is specifically immune to Anti-Magic Field. Rich brushed the objection off, saying "I don't."

Or: The ancient black dragon casts Ihateverboseelves, a spell which just happens to render Vaarsuvius helpless.

Which one of those actually happens?

Is there a difference there? I'd say saying that there is no difference between "Protean mimics this documented Ex. ability" and "Protean mimics this homebrew ability" is functionally identical to saying "no, there is no difference," and in both cases it's an answer that doesn't even come from a solar system I recognize.

Don't get what you mean here at all.

If he doesn't break it down some people will decide for themselves how it was possible and other people will reject those as potential options - and we will never know if those ways are correct or incorrect and it won't matter.

If one is willing to accept protean based on what one has seen so far there is likely nothing it could do which would void that - if one is not willing to accept protean based on what one has seen so far there is likely nothing it could do which would make that more acceptable.

A protean could do what the creature has done I have no real doubts about that I just view it effectively as the same level of answer as homebrew creature or heavily templated creature - it is merely an answer that raises other questions as to which abilities/what are the stats of the homebrew/which templates etc.

I get that other people seem to think it is a good answer - if it works out for them hope they are happy, if it turns out to be a series of templates hope they aren't too disappointed, if it turns out to be a Living Wall (from Ravenloft) hope they don't lose the plot.

No. The gibbering orb loses any and all such powers 24 hours after ingestion ("Stolen spells and spell-like abilities are lost after 24 hours."). At best, a protean would have to duplicate the ability, find someone to eat, and retain the gibbering orb power for that time.

That would be how I would normally read it but it is not the only way to read it.
The EX ability gives the spell like abilities and the Protean in lore looks around for abilities to take - I am not convinced it is unreasonable that a protean copying the powers wouldn't get the entire referenced ability at the time it noted it rather then merely the top level.
Or more directly if The Giant decided to explain it (which I doubt) and that was the explanation I would shrug and be fine with it (still thinking that protean is just an easy answer to justify any power a DM wants).

Nor can a gibbering orb even swallow whole a dragon, so even in the hypothetical case of any protean, anywhere, you still haven't given me what I requested.

You can assume the form of a dragon with Shapechange and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.

Link?

Apologies I should have said 'Mock Divinity' (page 43 of the Fiendish Codex 1) rather then 'Divine Mockery' my bad for not confirming the name first - it effectively gives level 9 cleric casting, this combined with Siphon Spell Power (page 73 Book of Vile Darkness) allows for effectively any spell up to the highest level the creature can cast to be cast (cleric 9 allows for 5th level spells so works for polymorph), if you combine this further you can increase the level of spells that a creature can cast such as Planer Travel (224 of the Epic Level Handbook) which allows 7th level spells to be cast (and so makes Limited Wish available).
Some of this I would be dubious about a DM doing but it is I think a debatable point (this dubiousness is mentioned above as a drawback for justifing casting as a sorcerer).

[Flange]

What about a Wingless Wonder?

A Wingless Wonder is a goofy, egg shaped monster that just wanders and eats, has wild magic, and has an anti-magic effect. According to its lore, it was a popular polymorph shape to humiliate losers of magic duels, and also a popular disguise for wizards who need to be unfindable. In that state, they keep the ability to cast spells at will as well. Specifically the Drow are said to use this form for themselves and others, and we have at least one drow in this world. They tend to lose their mind and become like a natural wingless wonders by staying in that form, though. More than anything, the silly, food oriented description fits the character really well.

I don't think the natural wingless wonder's magic can do everything needed of the MitD, but a high powered wizard in wonder form could do everything the natural wonder can't. That relies on the wizard having lost their mind being in wonder form and forgetting who they are and where they come from.

Some pros, it can create rain with its random magic effect for the O-Chul scenes with rain helping him sleep. It has an appetite and personality that fit the character. They have weird suction cup feet, making weird tracks like the weird ones Belkar finds. It has poor spotting ability beyond short range, it could literally miss the spot check to see the gates if they're more than a few feet away. A person in wonder form would speak common still, even though the wild creatures wouldn't.

Some cons, it's supposed to have a mouth on top but it always has the food going in under its eyes. It's not naturally strong, so it takes some stretching to make things like slamming Miko work. It's asking a lot for the MitD to both be a hidden monster but for that to also be a disguise for some second wizard character. I'm sure there's more.

There are problems with it, but it could be twisted to work I think. Either way, I think it fits the character even if it doesn't quite match the rules.

[dancrilis]

What about a Wingless Wonder?

Not a bad idea - and apparently they have a potential related species that is more powerful also (source) the Giant would have been playing before 3rd ed and I do like the idea of him picking a creature that either hasn't been converted or wasn't converted at the time of his choice on what the creature in shadows was.

Either a Wingless Wonder which he decided would be more powerful in 3rd ed or a varient creature which was apparently not published but was more powerful would suit that - and as the wingless wonder can produce flesh to stone (a 6th level spell) a more powerful version being able to produce a 9th level spell (or whatever people like) is not unreasonable.

[Kish]

Gosh, I hope that's what happens! Can you imagine if they all voted for my candidate? I might have to listen to their complaints instead of dismissing them.

"Hey, TB, how many sheets of paper does it take to fully summarize all of your candidate's powers?"

"Go away, Slaadist, you're just another Outsider here."

I hope Precure is smarter than to arm you with a way to change the subject.

I may be a black kettle but you are the most thoroughgoing pot I've ever seen in this thread.

You have never addressed any of the numerous times it has been pointed out that the creature in the darkness longs to be out of the darkness and Xykon is not a member of the Cthulhu Mythos nor the creature's master. Why would more people believing he could be the Hunting Horror change that?

dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.

Ox, which takes more words to write: "The Protean can only duplicate Ex abilities, and Rich is not going to pull the massive ripoff of introducing homebrew creatures with everything as Ex. abilities" or your case for the Hunting Horror, back when you were making a case?

Which do you think took more time and/or effort to come up with?

"So many monsters"--again this would be a reason to make a positive case. But you limit yourself to the negative one, poking at the protean's complexity, because when you actually argue for something people say all sorts of mean things, like "no, it's not plausible that he massively exerted himself to hit with overwhelming power when he was trying to hit the lightest," "no, having 21 hit dice doesn't turn Telekinesis into Epic Violent Thrust no matter how much you like the sound of that phrase," and, "no, a creature who voluntarily spends its life lurking in the darkness and exists to serve a being from the Cthulhu Mythos is a terrible match for the creature's story role actually."

You, of course, are the epitome of politeness and it is baffling that people are so harsh as to keep telling you you're wrong. By the way, do I change the subject or do I dismiss your "he can't be using a creature that would take a lot of pages if he sat down and listed every Ex. ability it could possibly have" argument? They're actually not the same thing.

[Tubercular Ox]

If he doesn't break it down some people will decide for themselves how it was possible and other people will reject those as potential options - and we will never know if those ways are correct or incorrect and it won't matter.

So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?

What about a Wingless Wonder?

Man, DnD used to be wild. This is great stuff.

[Kish]

So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?

Yes, Ox. Every one of the thousand strips that goes up after the creature is revealed, will be accompanied by at least one person coming into this thread to say "man, Rich should have made it anything but the protean."

[Jasdoif]

Not a bad idea - and apparently they have a potential related species that is more powerful also (source) the Giant would have been playing before 3rd ed and I do like the idea of him picking a creature that either hasn't been converted or wasn't converted at the time of his choice on what the creature in shadows was.

Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?

[Kish]

Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?

I'd personally be more concerned about...they're comically weak if they're not polymorphed wizards. Why would Redcloak look at one and say, "I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted." If he was somehow sure the wingless wonder in front of him was a powerful polymorphed wizard (and wizards polymorphed into wingless wonders are not able to talk, so the creature being able to speak would not point to that, but to something utterly unexpected and bizarre), and for whatever reason he was confident in that wizard's loyalty rather than treating him with all the hatred he shows for all humans--he shouldn't be thinking merely "this is a secret weapon," but, "I just found Xykon's replacement!"

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes, Ox. Every one of the thousand strips that goes up after the creature is revealed, will be accompanied by at least one person coming into this thread to say "man, Rich should have made it anything but the protean."

I don't think that follows from what dancrilis said, and if I've misunderstood dancrilis, it's not how I imagined it working when I suggested it, either.

[Ruck]

I don't particularly like the protean as an answer as you can kindof jury-rig it to be anything.

No, you can't, and not only has this thread covered that dozens of times because people keep bringing up this objection, we just did again, like, ten posts ago.

dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.

I really don't know what you're trying to say, to the point where I can't tell what your process for figuring this out is or what you think anyone else's process is.

[mashlagoo1982]

Would you like to claim that spellcasting is nonmagical?

I was trying to find a comprehensive list of Ex abilities and stumbled upon this old thread.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...f-EX-abilities

I'm not sure how I feel about the conclusions in the thread.
I would probably scoff if it was ever presented at a table I play.
But, the short version is that some spell casting is actually considered EX according to RAW and maybe even RAI if the discussion could be found and confirmed..

That is why casters can cast within antimagic field and it doesn't prevent the spell from being cast. It only suppresses the effects of the spell which has been cast. I only skimmed the thread, so my understanding maybe incorrect.

Important Quotes:

All Abilities are Ex, Sp, Na, or Su. Abilities which are not otherwise designated (such as by explicit typing, or by being Special Abilities, or whatever) are Na, but this category only includes abilities inherent to the physical form of the creature. (PHB, SRD, RotG:P)

Special Abilities are a subset of Abilities (SRD). Special Abilities are always Ex, Sp, or Su... NEVER Natural (SRD, MM1, DMG, FF, RotG:P). In general, Special Abilities that are not otherwise marked and without a clear, supernatural element are assumed to be Ex... this includes all abilities that work in Antimagic Fields (FAQ). Special Abilities are divided into two categories, Special Attacks, and Special Qualities (MM, FF). Spells are a Special Attack (MM, MMII, MM3, FF, etc) that works in Antimagic Fields (RotG:A), and thus are Ex.

Indeed, it's found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a
(link is old and doesn't go to discussion anymore) :'-(

It's one of the most in depth discussions by any designer on ability types, which is why I tend to reference it, especially since Skip was one of the lead designers when they made ability types in the first place. But everything he says in that article is found in the books somewhere... he's just clarifying everything there.

RotG:A is Rules of the Game: Antimagic, by the way. That's where they clarify that you do have spellcasting (the ability) when you're in an antimagic field, it's just that the effects of the spells are suppressed temporarily. That's the thing: Spellcasting is a non magical ability (Ex) that creates a magical effect (not an ability). It's much like how Wildshape is an Su ability that grants Na abilities (claw attacks and such).

Please take this with a grain of salt.

I am still looking for a comprehensive list of EX abilities and did not completely read the argument.

I just found it interesting that some people had actually made the argument spellcasting was EX.

[Tzardok]

Those arguments have been around for longer than I have. I've seen Argumentations for Ex, for Su and for Na. I personally think spellcasting should be its own category as it already has its own ruleset, but I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else soon.

[Kish]

I mean, that was what Doug said here, no need to look to another thread for it.

Looking at the actual quote in that thread...whoever it's even originally from...

It's reasonable to assume that sneak attack is an extraordinary ability. When in doubt, the DM should decide if an unmarked ability qualifies. Anything that lacks a clear, supernatural element should be fair play.

assuming the speaker has authority, suggests that spellcasting would absolutely not qualify as it's the clearest supernatural ability of any class feature.

However, later claims in that thread state that the MMV and Fiend Folio list creatures with "(Ex.) casts as a level [something] [somethingelse]."

That. Does not strike me as a well-considered decision. And I would point out that it apparently took until the fifth Monster Manual for someone to put it in print: quite a remove from core. But, those books have been established as existing in OotS, thus the protean could suddenly break out in level-9 cleric spellcasting like a lilutu, and any other spellcasting which is listed as an Ex. ability for some monster in one of them. Untangling the implications of same are left as an exercise for the reader. (Not the general reader; a specific reader, named Grey Wolf.)

[dancrilis]

So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?

I suspect that after the reveal (whatever it turns out to be) most of the forum will move on to other items and this thread won't be needed any more - some will complain, some will praise etc but such is the nature of the internet.

Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?

I read that as all the monsters in the pit were unconverted not that all unconverted monsters were in the pit.
In the case of the creature in shadows it might have been at the circus before the talisman was made - and if it is the theory if it being the other species that is thought to be extinct then it might never have been published at all.

No, you can't

I can and I did in this very thread - you might dislike the way(s) I did so (perhaps you think they are not valid for whatever reason) but if The Giant has decided that the creature is a Protean and that Escape is covered by Wish there are multiple methods available to him to do so - same with virtually any other ability the creature could display.
This is what I mean by saying proteans can be kindof jury-riged to be anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am not convinced it is unreasonable that a protean copying the powers wouldn't get the entire referenced ability at the time it noted it rather then merely the top level.

You not being convinced is irrelevant. People are "not convinced" that an epic creature can't cast violent thrust more powerfully due to being epic. People are "not convinced" that violent thrust can be used to push horses through walls. People are "not convinced" that MitD can't be of a gargantuan species despite being medium-Large sized currently and at best teenagery. And that's just from the last 50 pages. People are "not convinced" about a great deal many things that are clearly contradicted by the actual rules and/or common sense. If your entire argument is that, somewhere, someone will blatantly misread the rules to make the protean do anything, then it is an nonsense argument.

You can assume the form of a dragon with Shapechange and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.

Which we have no evidence of - no-one is feeding level 9 casters to MitD in his gruel. I can't decide if this whole line is blatant strawmanning - i.e. attacking an argument that no-one has made about MitD!protean, or just bait-and-switch, where you decide to be against the protean because if you were the DM you'd be fine with this, even though it clearly is not what we see in the the comic. The reality is that the MitD!Protean argument is not claiming he's actually Pun-pun, abusing polymorph rules to fit. MitD!Protean fits better than most other candidates across most scenes, with the main exception of the Escape scene, which it struggles with, but can have a direct answer to via it's power. An answer that does not involve MitD borrowing a power from fiend folio to cast as a cleric, then using a different power from somewhere else to do I-don't-know-what, then shapechanging into something with Wish, then using that wish to teleport. The whole chain of reasoning is so ridiculously over-the-horizon I am perfectly happy to dismiss it out of hand.

In short, looking at your argument, I don't think it amounts to anything even vaguely plausible, much less the lofty claim that the protean can be jury-rigged to do anything more so than any other creature, given that Pun-pun is already in the OP.

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

You not being convinced is irrelevant.

Hagunemnon's travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinory abilities to assume.

... gain advantage of up to four extraordinory abilities from the forms it mimics ...

Taking those two together it duplicates the extraordinory form it encounters not necessarily the base form.

I take it I have not convinced you - do you think that your own lack of being convinced is irrelevant?

I am not saying it is a must reading (as mentioned I don't like this argument(see #89)) merely that I think it is a fair reading and I would not begrudge the Giant if he applied it like that for his story (I might be more dubious about a DM doing it or doing it as a DM).

I can't decide if this whole line is blatant strawmanning

I am not really making an argument or attacking an arguement - Precure asked a direct question in #29 which I felt I gave a direct answer to in #47 then then asked another direct question to me based on that answer in #52 and again I gave them what I saw as a direct answer in #78, I only mentioned my own dislike of the protean in #78 as lio45 had (seemingly) disliked my answer in their reply in #48.

My take is the protean fits the scenes fine, if the creature is a protean that is fine and doesn't need to much explanation and such explanations are easy to come by for it (if the Giant felt like giving them or if the forum wanted to discuss them) - I just personally don't like the protean as an answer for the same reason that I think you may not like templates to explain the creature as in my opinion it moves the discussion away from the actual creature and onto the abilities.

This dislike is even somewhat odd as I have no issue with templates and in fact no issue with potentially non-published creatures from earlier editions which may only exist in lore (such as the potentially extinct relation of the Wingless Wonder) which could have any abilities at all at The Giant discretion.

[Tzardok]

In that case I may actually be on the same side as dancrillis here. I dislike the protean, while my own guess requires the involvement of a template. I just don't want to make a big deal out of me not liking a very popular option.

[Jasdoif]

However, later claims in that thread state that the MMV and Fiend Folio list creatures with "(Ex.) casts as a level [something] [somethingelse]."

An answer that does not involve MitD borrowing a power from fiend folio

Fiendish Codex I, actually; the confusion is of course understandable but I just checked and every single instance of a creature with innate spellcasting in Fiend Folio lacks a descriptor (your call on whether that should be read as "it's a natural ability" or "it's just a container for spells, it's not an ability in its own right but we still have to list it somehow"...possibly both). As do those in Monster Manual III (the Monster Manual that gives the Giant a design credit, in case anyone cares about that sort of thing).

Monster Manual V, which I personally feel has the cleanest monster design overall, does have a few creatures with innate spellcasting (for specific reasons, I imagine) and they're given those through an extraordinary ability (for some reason)....But fortunately for the specific MitD scenario, none of that really matters; Fiendish Codex I is 2006 and Monster Manual V is 2007, so they're both years too late to meet the strip 100 determination date of 2004.


Of course, the larger issue is that the dynamic nature of the protean's Alter Shape is conducive towards (ab)using instances of odd design decisions and editing oversights, and in a game where players can take on extraordinary abilities of creatures through polymorph it's not always clear which is which. All I can really add there is the Giant's disdain for the implementation of shape-changing magic.

[Kish]

Monster Manual V, which I personally feel has the cleanest monster design overall, does have a few creatures with innate spellcasting (for specific reasons, I imagine) and they're given those through an extraordinary ability (for some reason)....But fortunately for the specific MitD scenario, none of that really matters; Fiendish Codex I is 2006 and Monster Manual V is 2007, so they're both years too late to meet the strip 100 determination date of 2004.

Oh good.

(If I had the ear of anyone who worked for WotC I'd suggest errata turning those from Ex. to Su., but it doesn't matter here today, as long as no one's going to argue that the protean would necessitate Rich anticipating everything that will ever be introduced as an Ex. ability in the future, which would be, at best, a dire misunderstanding of Rich's demonstrated creative process*, and at worst, a naked display of bad faith.)

*Remember, everyone, Vaarsuvius' level is channa masala.

[Tubercular Ox]

You not being convinced is irrelevant. People are "not convinced" that an epic creature can't cast violent thrust more powerfully due to being epic. People are "not convinced" that violent thrust can be used to push horses through walls. People are "not convinced" that MitD can't be of a gargantuan species despite being medium-Large sized currently and at best teenagery. And that's just from the last 50 pages. People are "not convinced" about a great deal many things that are clearly contradicted by the actual rules and/or common sense. If your entire argument is that, somewhere, someone will blatantly misread the rules to make the protean do anything, then it is an nonsense argument.

So him not being convinced is irrelevant, and your proof of this is how all of the things you're not convinced of are highly relevant.

dancrilis is right, there are things I can think are stupid but still accept it if Rich comes out and says he's going to do the stupid thing to power his story. And if Rich came out and said, "As soon as I read Mock Divinity in the latest Monster Manual, I knew I had to write a scene exposing how ridiculous polymorph rules are. It's a shame it had to wait until the reveal for my satire to be exposed," I'd roll with it. But I'm not holding my breath for him to do that, and I don't think the chance of him doing it goes down if I stamp out the argument of anyone saying he could.

[lio45]

... and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.

It's a truism that "A Protean that has just swallowed a Therblewurkersaurus" is a perfect fit on all counts.

[Ruck]

I can and I did in this very thread - you might dislike the way(s) I did so (perhaps you think they are not valid for whatever reason) but if The Giant has decided that the creature is a Protean and that Escape is covered by Wish there are multiple methods available to him to do so - same with virtually any other ability the creature could display.
This is what I mean by saying proteans can be kindof jury-riged to be anything.

Multiple people, most notably Grey Wolf and Kish, have already told you the problems with your reasoning, and I agree with them. Your reasoning involves a combination of contrivances, homebrews, unsupported assumptions which are only assumed because they're necessary for your argument ("What if MitD just happened to eat a sorcerer capable of casting level-9 spells in the time frame necessary for the Escape scene"), and bending the definitions of terms like "Extraordinary Ability."

Not all possibilities you can imagine are equally valid or plausible.

So him not being convinced is irrelevant, and your proof of this is how all of the things you're not convinced of are highly relevant.

What Grey Wolf is not convinced of is that you can simply change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case. If you need to change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case, it's probably a poor case.

[Keltest]

Multiple people, most notably Grey Wolf and Kish, have already told you the problems with your reasoning, and I agree with them. Your reasoning involves a combination of contrivances, homebrews, unsupported assumptions which are only assumed because they're necessary for your argument ("What if MitD just happened to eat a sorcerer capable of casting level-9 spells in the time frame necessary for the Escape scene"), and bending the definitions of terms like "Extraordinary Ability."

Not all possibilities you can imagine are equally valid or plausible.



What Grey Wolf is not convinced of is that you can simply change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case. If you need to change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case, it's probably a poor case.

As opposed to the contrivances and assumptions required for the Protean to work your way, you mean?

On a semi-related note, didn't somebody recently bring up the idea that the rogue Dimensional Anchor required for most teleport spells to explain the Escape scene should have ended due to the Soul Splice breaking? That got glossed over a bit, but its kind of an important explanation for a lot of creatures, including I think the protean. Do we want to maybe examine that a little more closely?

[georgie_leech]

Wait, why would the soulsplice breaking mean the Dimensional Anchor stopped working? Last I checked, once a spell is cast, it stays cast.