MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Neponde]

MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable.

I figure a crack at how virtually no other proposed creature fits as perfectly would be appreciated by all. Or hated by all. What matters is its probably unifying.

Tossing my vote behind this.

[Spirare]

Mind you, HH as proposed here is already a mishmash of SRD & FR & CoC stats, so I'm sure one could pick-and-chose their way around it, but the very fact that needs to be done is a weakness in and of itself.

so what are the major differences between versions? im not sold on the coc escape explanation, but since coc is what's mostly been discussed seriously i dont know how the others do it.

in any case, im content to leave it on the fbs, the other entries on there are questionable enough that it feels weird to trim off *just* the hunting horror

(and while im here, crusher can mark my guess as protean. i'll also vote fur "what if mitd was one of us?" and "the potted plant is starting to look reasonable")

[Darth V]

Voting for MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable.


Just throwing something out here, is that a Hag Naga in the first panel of the most recent strip #1290? Can we rule those out now because it is unlikely the reveal of the MitD will show us something we have already seen in the comic before? I just bring this up because I think I remember some heated discussions about Hag Nagas a while ago. Or maybe I am confusing it with the curent(?) discussion about the Hunting Horror (I am not well versed ind DnD, so maybe I thought HH are nagas).

Also, in the same vein, isn't all that stuff about sanity checks applicable to the unseen monster in the strip before? My guess is if we had a HH in OOTS, it was already there, unseen and renamed because maybe copyright? Same as we don't talk about Mind Flayers Squid Thingies.

[Ruck]

I nominate "MitD XIX: What We Do in the Shadows."

I feel like I nominated this at some point, so I have to support it: MitD XIX: What We Do in the Shadows

Well, now I'm thinking about my favorite songs I can use for a title, and that makes me think MITD XIX: Is not the age of reason.

And despite my doubt that we have enough Old 97's fans here to push this one over the line, I have to try anyway: MitD XIX: Is not the age of reason

[Kish]

Voting for MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable.


Just throwing something out here, is that a Hag Naga in the first panel of the most recent strip #1290?

Ha-Naga, not Hag Naga. Unless you found a sourcebook with a Hag Naga in it.

I doubt it. It appears to be some manner of cobra with a scorpion tail. Not an unspecified-type snake with a human head. It's also far too small to be a Colossal creature.

[Tzardok]

It could be a dark naga. Has the right color and size, and they are the only nagas with a stinger. The only problem would be the hood, but that could be artistic freedom (did any naga appear before in the comic? I don't remember any).

[Tubercular Ox]

so what are the major differences between versions?

There is d20 Call of Cthulhu, which I use exclusively. It was an official WotC product written by Monte Cook, one of the lead designers for 3rd edition. Everything in the first post not outed as another edition is d20 Call of Cthulhu, except the lines about randomly rolling for spells and having access to Wish.

Those lines, and all lines outed as being another edition, belong to the Chaosium Call of Cthulhu, probably fifth edition, since that's the latest that Rich could've had access to at the time he picked the Monster in the Dark. It's definitely a D&D inspired system, but there are no conversion rules in the book.

I don't like this edition of the Hunting Horror, or any other, because only the d20 version has two eyes.

The conversion rules for d20 Call of Cthulhu monsters are, "Use as written," with a footnote that you may want to add an alignment, if you need it, and that you need to decide if all monsters force sanity checks, only monsters in the book force sanity checks, or no monsters force sanity checks.

[Kish]

Nausea (Ex): The area for 200 feet around a hunting horror is suffused with an overwhelming stench, as from some forgotten pit of rottenness. Everyone in or entering this area must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). Those who succeed are queasy, suffering -2 penalties to all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Those who fail can only take one move action each round because they are nauseated. Creatures with no sense of smell are immune to this attack.

Belkar, is one of those what you cooked stew for?

Spell-like Abilities: As servitors of Nyarlathotep, master of magic, all hunting horrors know the following spells, of which they can use one per round--darkness, death by flames, deflect harm, evil eye, fist of Yog-Sothoth, grasp of Cthulhu, shriveling, suggestion, true strike and wrack.

O-Chul, is the spell that teleported you away from Xykon on that highly specific list?

Jasdoif already quoted the light damage/hatred part, of course.

[Metastachydium]

I default to the second one, with an ü instead of the i.

That makes me happy, actually! Due to the word ending, it should be abundantly clear that this is a Latinized form, with a cosmetic y, but it really was an ü (/y/) once, and I love that sound!

At least, I assume that you mean this one with k^h.

Nope. I mean voiceless velar plosive with aspiration, but yes, /x/ is very acceptable in my book as well!

First, it matches the voted on criteria to Fit the Big Scenes. If you want to challenge all the criteria and start over I suggest waiting for the next thread because it will probably be messy.

I checked the criteria as listed by the section in question.
–I saw no benchmarks for defenses, but measly DR 10 and an AC probably slightly superior to Roy's is clearly inadequate;
–it's a very poor explanation for the cricus scene, what with being a standard, easy to ID Demon that is neither nauseatingly gross, nor beautiful;
–it's STR barely qualifies it if Huge size is allowed for, and the benchmark for that is based on the tower having a 1" thick masonry wall;
–which means it has absolutely no reasonable explanation for the earthquake;
–not to mention thet being a FULLY ADULT Glabrezu, let alone a juvenile specimen, would make the Monster the literal single weakest member of Team Evil (barring Jirix, if you count him) ever from the get-go; and
–anything capable of giving not Xykon, but Redcloak or Oona XP should be able to mess him up real bad, if not snap him in half.

REMOVE THE GLABREZU!!

[Tubercular Ox]

Belkar, is one of those what you cooked stew for?

All the ways to solve a problem, and Rich picks the one that gives the solution to Redcloak.

"Sorry about the smell" is a thing it says when the big game hunters capture him, but by the time of the Circus scene the problem is gone and never comes up again.

O-Chul, is the spell that teleported you away from Xykon on that highly specific list?

A Call of Cthulhu spell is the best explanation for the Escape Scene. A Hunting Horror has premium access to Call of Cthulhu spells because it is printed in the same book.

Call of Cthulhu spells are built off of template spells printed in the book. A Call of Cthulhu spell cannot have the same name as its template spell, and must differ from its template spell in one or two small ways.

Call of Cthulhu spells must have an aura of mystery and strangeness, and are never easy, mechanical, mundane, or safe.

The template spell is Word of Recall. It is renamed to Escape, it picks a sanctuary for you at the time the spell is cast, and it excludes the caster. Otherwise it is the same.

The audience finds it mysterious and strange because teleport effects do not work that way in D&D, and its use as part of the climax of DStP is not easy, mechanical, mundane, or safe. Rich underlines this when the Monster in the Dark fails to activate it later.

Escape is like Word of Recall, only the spell picks the sanctuary and it doesn't include the caster. This is enough for it to have an aura of mystery and strangeness.

Jasdoif already quoted the light damage/hatred part, of course.

The damage is only a problem if you decide it has to be a problem, because Rich will draw damage however he likes.

Overwriting the hatred of light is less of a problem than overwriting a monster's undying hatred of all nonshapechanging beings, because a Hunting Horror is still presented as a creature that can't understand the humanoids around it, but is strangely prone to following orders anyways, which matches.

[Keltest]

CoC spellcasting rules don't seem to allow for the MITD to not know what the spell was or how he did it. Its not something you can do by accident, you need to have the knowledge of it.

Also, "its a homebrew spell" runs into the same issue as the potted plant template stack.

[Kish]

CoC spellcasting rules don't seem to allow for the MITD to not know what the spell was or how he did it. Its not something you can do by accident, you need to have the knowledge of it.

Also, "its a homebrew spell" runs into the same issue as the potted plant template stack.

Indeed. Where is the "not something Rich made up" line drawn? Just how many changes can he make and still say "it's this published monster"? I'm fine with things on the level of a paladin with evasion; I will be very surprised if the reveal of what he is includes a pause to bathetically highlight that he's had a joke air freshener attached to him since shortly after meeting Redcloak (and the circus workers who fed and were regularly far closer than 200 feet to him just didn't show any sign of...okay you know what I take this back, that doesn't work either), but not fine at all with one of the big clues to the creature's identity--the Escape scene--being something the creature wouldn't normally have which Rich made up and added to him.

I checked the criteria as listed by the section in question.
–I saw no benchmarks for defenses, but measly DR 10 and an AC probably slightly superior to Roy's is clearly inadequate;
–it's a very poor explanation for the cricus scene, what with being a standard, easy to ID Demon that is neither nauseatingly gross, nor beautiful;
–it's STR barely qualifies it if Huge size is allowed for, and the benchmark for that is based on the tower having a 1" thick masonry wall;
–which means it has absolutely no reasonable explanation for the earthquake;
–not to mention thet being a FULLY ADULT Glabrezu, let alone a juvenile specimen, would make the Monster the literal single weakest member of Team Evil (barring Jirix, if you count him) ever from the get-go; and
–anything capable of giving not Xykon, but Redcloak or Oona XP should be able to mess him up real bad, if not snap him in half.

REMOVE THE GLABREZU!!

As I said, I will not be calling for a vote on this subject again for my own part. But I will give advice, based on your specific expressed concerns.

Instead of just yelling REMOVE THE GLABREZU, I would suggest waiting for the next thread and then immediately posting something along the lines of:

I propose that the FBS criteria be modified to include:
Minimum Strength of # to fit tower scene
Explicit minimum defenses of n or m to fit tower scene (Miko's attacks) and corpse retrieval scene (Belkar's attacks)
Minimum explicit power level (Challenge Rating?) of X

[Tubercular Ox]

CoC spellcasting rules don't seem to allow for the MITD to not know what the spell was or how he did it. Its not something you can do by accident, you need to have the knowledge of it.

Compared to manifesting an Umbral Blot's Planar Travel (Ex) without realizing it, then steering a Teleport Without Error without knowing the destination? And shouting, "Escape!" so loudly that you convince yourself it's a part of the effect.

I'm not saying either is silly, I'm saying they're comparable.

Also, "its a homebrew spell" runs into the same issue as the potted plant template stack.

He's following the rules exactly, including the hard parts like setting a mood and creating mystery. But, yeah, there's room to agree to disagree here.

EDIT: Also, are you guys still using the dodge that Teleport Without Error can mimic Teleport's ability to fail to a random location? Because that's homebrew as well.

[Keltest]

Compared to manifesting an Umbral Blot's Planar Travel (Ex) without realizing it, then steering a Teleport Without Error without knowing the destination? And shouting, "Escape!" so loudly that you convince yourself it's a part of the effect.

I'm not saying either is silly, I'm saying they're comparable.

I'm not satisfied with that as an explanation either, but from my understanding accidentally casting a spell in CoC is literally impossible, whereas a monster subconsciously using a power it technically possesses without really realizing it is merely improbable.

He's following the rules exactly, including the hard parts like setting a mood and creating mystery. But, yeah, there's room to agree to disagree here.

The template stack also follows the rules exactly. That wasnt really the criticism there.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm not satisfied with that as an explanation either, but from my understanding accidentally casting a spell in CoC is literally impossible, whereas a monster subconsciously using a power it technically possesses without really realizing it is merely improbable.

I disagree, but all my analogies are to the Umbral Blot, so if you don't like that either we can agree to disagree.

The template stack also follows the rules exactly. That wasnt really the criticism there.

Okay, so, agree to disagree again, but I'm super curious: Is the Potted Plant a base monster with stats? Which one?

And I'm going to vote for MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable.

[Keltest]

Okay, so, agree to disagree again, but I'm super curious: Is the Potted Plant a base monster with stats? Which one?

And I'm going to vote for MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable.

The "potted plant" can be any monster at all, using a literal plant is just a joke. The point is that the template stack makes the base monster irrelevant because everything important comes from the templates. It's a "good" solution in as much as it lets us actually match the MITD, something no monster has been able to do yet, but because we have no way of identifying what templates are or are not in use, it's not really any different than just making up a monster whole cloth, and especially unhelpful for trying to logically deduce things.

Hence the problem with a homebrew spell. Yeah, it might not violate the letter of the rules, but if you go that route then everything the MITD does can be explained as just a really weird homebrew spell.

[Peelee]

it should be abundantly clear that this is a Latinized form

How vulgar.

REMOVE THE GLABREZU!!

Ceterum censeo Glabrizinem esse delendam?

[Metastachydium]

But I will give advice, based on your specific expressed concerns.

Appreciated,

Instead of just yelling REMOVE THE GLABREZU,

even as I feel like this is a Colossal+ misrepresentation of the arguments I have presented.

I would suggest waiting for the next thread and then immediately posting something along the lines of:

I propose that the FBS criteria be modified to include:
Minimum Strength of # to fit tower scene
Explicit minimum defenses of n or m to fit tower scene (Miko's attacks) and corpse retrieval scene (Belkar's attacks)
Minimum explicit power level (Challenge Rating?) of X

I probably will, adding, on top of what I have already pointed out, that
–as far as CR/the challenge it presents is concerned, it is to be noted that Xykon believes he can effortlessly defeat Redcloak, a full caster; and the Tower/Tea Party scene attest that he can effortlessly deal with a CR/ECL 12+ opponent and two CR/ECL 10+ at once.

That said, the notion that the current criteria would not warrant the exclusion of the Glabrezu baffles me:

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)

This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):

(…)

2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)

If the Glabrezu has a plausible explanation for the Tower with its CR-appropriate (at most) attack routine and subpar defenses, this criterion is meaningless and should not be included.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)

If the Galbrezu has a plausible explanation for the Circus reactions, despite being easily identifiable to a learned caster, mechanically speaking, this criterion is meaningless.

No. 6, the minimum STR requirement not accounting for the earthquake, is a separate issue that, I will concede that, can only be addressed by changing an existing criterion, the same way the CR/challenge level issue can only be properly addresse through adding a new one.

(REMOVE THE GLABREZU!!)

How vulgar.

Wrong period, Mr. Lee, Sir. This is (post-)18th century scientific, rather than vulgar Latin.

Ceterum censeo Glabriginem esse delendam?

I'd go with Glabrezu esse delendum; the species name seems indeclinable, and unlikely to be feminine. Glabrezum might be acceptable, if we consider this 4th declination, but I don't see a strong case for that.

[Kish]

I'm not satisfied with that as an explanation either, but from my understanding accidentally casting a spell in CoC is literally impossible, whereas a monster subconsciously using a power it technically possesses without really realizing it is merely improbable.

Beyond that, the protean specifically manifests Ex. abilities when it wants them. The puzzling thing would be the inability to send the hobgoblin blinking away later, not the ability to send O-Chul and that elf away. And that's just as much of a problem for the homebrew spell.

[Metastachydium]

and that elf

Hey! We're talking about history's worst mass murderer here! Where's the respect?!

[Keltest]

Beyond that, the protean specifically manifests Ex. abilities when it wants them. The puzzling thing would be the inability to send the hobgoblin blinking away later, not the ability to send O-Chul and that elf away. And that's just as much of a problem for the homebrew spell.

More even. The protean could, theoretically, not be aware which part an ability came from, or that it had said part in the first place, whereas an HH couldn't not remember it had a spell, by definition.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The template stack also follows the rules exactly. That wasnt really the criticism there.

Technically, it doesn't in that I never found a d20 srd template to increase the size of a creature (the "giant giant" close to start of the stack [read right-to-left] is Pathfinder's). But I only needed those two because I started with an tiny awakened plant; I believe you can increase the size of a monster by bumping up their HD anyway, so presumably one could get around it that way? Or just, you know, not start with a base creature that is tiny, but with a Small or larger. A potted ficus, say.

There is also a bit of a weird moment where I picked a specific high HD monster, the werewolf in transformed state, because it was the highest HD of the right type - humanoid, I think? - that someone objected to; but you can slot a different high-HD in its place. IIRC* the tauric & chimeric template add the HD of a second creature to the base, so it's there to bump the HD up so that the pseudonatural & phrenic templates provide their highest level abilities (phrenic's teleport is gated behind a relatively high HD). I just was tired at that point and didn't want to keep digging through the monster list looking for a different one.

But as you say, the exercise was to prove that sufficient templates can be stacked to the point the base creature becomes mostly irrelevant.

Grey Wolf

*It's been a while

[woweedd]

Yeah, ya know, I was willing to defend the Haunting Horror, but if, as Ox has somewhat admitted, it has a specific spell list, and nothing that accounts for the escape is on it...Yeah, that's not really fitting the big scenes.

[Peelee]

Wrong period, Mr. Lee, Sir. This is (post-)18th century scientific, rather than vulgar Latin.



I'd go with Glabrezu esse delendum; the species name seems indeclinable, and unlikely to be feminine. Glabrezum might be acceptable, if we consider this 4th declination, but I don't see a strong case for that.

Oh, I'm sorry, which one of us has two thumbs and won second place at the statewide Latin Day comprehension test in high school? Hoc homo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, ya know, I was willing to defend the Haunting Horror, but if, as Ox has somewhat admitted, it has a specific spell list, and nothing that accounts for the escape is on it...Yeah, that's not really fitting the big scenes.

Which is why the original suggestion depended on using a blend of powers from many systems. One of them - and I don't remember which one, it's been too long - had a dice roll based spell list. The spell list included Wish, and it really is on the back of that that the HH made the FBS, this being the early days when "strength above 30" and "ugly" and "wish, however unlikely" was plenty to get a creature into the list. I'd have to go back, but there's a good chance it might even be from before the consensus rules, when the list was just personal pick of the crop, yes, broadly based on the above, but with a heavy pinch of "huh, that's a weird/unique explanation for X" than the more regimented approach we adopted since.

I would suggest waiting for the next thread and then immediately posting something along the lines of:

I propose that the FBS criteria be modified to include:

You don't even need to wait until the start of the next thread; you can propose it now and if it gets the requisite two backers before the end of the thread, I'll just prepare to set up the voting at the start of the next one. But also, that's for actually modifying the FBS rules. If all you want is to move glabrezu to a different category, all you need to do is the same thing I did for the HH: say why you think it should be moved* (I believe is "weak defences"?) and ask for votes. Two positive votes (i.e. two more in favour than against) is sufficient, regardless of any other consideration.

GW

*Technically technically, you don't even need to give a reason. But it's likely going to get more votes if you have one than if you say, "Zodar should be in the FBS because he's dreamy, who's with me?"

[Kish]

Which is why the original suggestion depended on using a blend of powers from many systems. One of them - and I don't remember which one, it's been too long - had a dice roll based spell list. The spell list included Wish, and it really is on the back of that that the HH made the FBS, this being the early days when "strength above 30" and "ugly" and "wish, however unlikely" was plenty to get a creature into the list. I'd have to go back, but there's a good chance it might even be from before the consensus rules, when the list was just personal pick of the crop, yes, broadly based on the above, but with a heavy pinch of "huh, that's a weird/unique explanation for X" than the more regimented approach we adopted since.

Then I would venture that the Hunting Horror shouldn't be in the FBS because everyone agrees Rich didn't use a mashup Hunting Horror, whether one would finish that sentence with "because he's a d20 Call of Cthulhu Hunting Horror" or "because he's not a Hunting Horror."

I'm generally in favor of more explicitly codified rules, but consider this a preemptive vote in support of "the nonspecific but strong defenses the creature in the darkness has are definitely greater than a glabrezu's" if Meta calls for a vote on that.

[Tzardok]

That makes me happy, actually! Due to the word ending, it should be abundantly clear that this is a Latinized form, with a cosmetic y, but it really was an ü (/y/) once, and I love that sound!

The German mind defaults to ü when seeing an y and not knowing how it is supposed to be pronounced, and that goes double if the word seems to be of Greek origin.

I'd go with Glabrezu esse delendum; the species name seems indeclinable, and unlikely to be feminine. Glabrezum might be acceptable, if we consider this 4th declination, but I don't see a strong case for that.

One of the things I like about Latin is that theoretically everything can be declined. Glabrezum is what I would've gone with; Glabrezu seems to have the same ending as 'cornu' after all. The only thing we need to determine is if glabrezu is a masculinum or a neutrum.

Edit: I'm willing to give my vote to removing the glabrezu.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm generally in favor of more explicitly codified rules, but consider this a preemptive vote in support of "the nonspecific but strong defenses the creature in the darkness has are definitely greater than a glabrezu's" if Meta calls for a vote on that.

It has mirror image at-will, to the point where it's listed directly in the special qualities block (assuming this thing is anywhere near close to the official one, admittedly). I'd argue that the 1-in-5 chance of actually hitting one could translate into "breeze" as the sword just hit nothing but air around him. IIRC, you tend to prefer DR, but I don't generally trust Miko's assessments of, well, anything, too seriously.

ETA: just realised that page actually lists to a different glabrezu, and I've no idea why there are two of them, or which one is the one we're talking about. Both have the grant-wish-once-per-x thing which is the glabrezu calling card, so it really could be either. And this latter one does have DR.

ETA 2:

Then I would venture that the Hunting Horror shouldn't be in the FBS [...] "because he's not a Hunting Horror."

"MitD is not X" is not a reason to remove from the FBS list, given that definitionally, somewhere between N-1 and N entries in the FBS cannot possibly be MitD.

GW

[Kish]

Mirror Image duplicates the appearance of gear. If the creature in the darkness cast that, it would look like there were multiple shadowy figures carrying multiple parasols. Even if Rich handwaved "no, he looks like seven tiny little glabrezus clustered under one parasol," that explanation would also hinge on him automatically using one of his seven at-will spell-like abilities--what, every fourteen minutes? while another of his at-will spell-like abilities is what Rich described as power he doesn't know he had, and the other five he's never used (if he cast Chaos Hammer and hit Redcloak, or cast Unholy Blight and hit O-Chul, he'd hear about it). Finally, since Miko was tactically functional enough to beat up the entire Order, yes, I do think she knows the difference between "I hit and it tickled" and "I didn't hit." (Also, losing mirror images wouldn't tickle.) (Edited to add, also, as Keltest points out, Mirror Image only works at all on someone who can see the creature.)

...so yeah, no, I do not find that believable, I fear. REMOVE THE GLABREZU!!!

Edited: You cut out the core of what I said. Let me rephrase for more clarity then.

The Hunting Horror should not be in the FBS, because the version of the Hunting Horror that is in the FBS has never been proposed by anyone. One person is arguing passionately and at length for a d20 Call of Cthulhu Hunting Horror, which straightforwardly doesn't F the BS. No one proposed the mashup.

[Doug Lampert]

Just throwing something out here, is that a Hag Naga in the first panel of the most recent strip #1290? Can we rule those out now because it is unlikely the reveal of the MitD will show us something we have already seen in the comic before? I just bring this up because I think I remember some heated discussions about Hag Nagas a while ago.

3Power was/is the ha-naga advocate.