MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[dancrilis]

"Accurate" and "supported" are not the same thing.

I know.
You said that I made unsupported claims - this is possible I may not have supported everything I wrote (I think I actually did but maybe I didn't source something either because I didn't think it needed to be or when it was queried I missed it.)
You also seemed to imply that I was inaccurate about items I had stated - that was what I was asking you to support.

It is accurate to say, I suppose (not knowing the D&D rules well myself) that a Protean could theoretically take the Swallow Whole power from a Gibbering Orb and eat a sorcerer capable of casting 9th-level spells.

It is not supported anywhere in the strip that this ever happened with MitD, certainly not within the 24-hour time frame required for this to work.

It is also accurate to say that theoretically a homebrewed creature with any number of powers designated as Ex for the sole purpose of giving a Protean access to infinite powers exists in OOTS.

It is not supported anywhere that such a creature exists in OOTS, and it is not supported anywhere that Rich would do something like this, certainly not when he believes "it is possible to guess" what MitD is.

Notice also how to the extent your statements are accurate, they are only accurate about hypothetical possibilities under the D&D rules. They are not accurate about anything we have seen happen in the strip.

I lot of the basis for my statements have been replying to specific questions about what a Protean can do - not about what the creature in shadows could do if it was a protean.

Precure asked questions about whether a Protean can cast wish and whether a Protean can have high-level sorcerer casting - these questions where what I answered - they later indicated that they asked these questions to see if they could square a circle as to if the creature is a Protean would it be able to cast wish as they do not like the teleport option for the escape scene.

No.

Then I think you might just be wrong about what a protean is - a gibbering orb is a horrific creature but if you know you are facing one you can prepare (ray deflection will go a long way), same for a devastation beetle, thorciasid etc and many other creatures - they are all in the epic level handbook.
Protean are different as they are designed to be different and customised by the DM.
One which has had limited access to other creatures might take a wolf's trip ability, a nixies wild empathy ability a sea cats rend ability (and have an unused Hold Breath from the same source) and a howlers howl ability (and be able to trade in its Quills ability as it needs).
This is not a particularly impressive set of abilities to have for a protean and your level 29 players will likely have a fairly easy time.
However a protean which has met more creatures might be using a living vaults magic immunity, a tayella poison ability, a worm that walks engulf ability and immunities ability (and a host of lets say 20 others it can trade around as needed).
That second protean is a much harder fight (still probably not entirely unreasonable for the level the players are at subject to their knowledge, build etc).

This is what I mean my proteans being a mystery box - even after something is revealed to be a protean you still don't know that that specific protean can do or how it can do it.

If you don't understand what I mean now about proteans being a mystery box then I think we might just have a different usage of the term mystery box (at least in this context).

I will reiterate, though, that nothing in the strip except the Escape scene requires the Protean to use a power that is not part of its base set.

That is highly debatable - a protean can with its slam (assuming no critical etc) do 2d6+21 damage, this can be boosted with power attack and boosted further if a critical is scored - that damage is not really enough to justify the earthquake scene (even with a critical and maximum damage doubt any DM would let a player doing that damage to get an earthquake out of it).
In fact it isn't enough to break an iron door in one punch via damage, and a protean only has a 70% chance to break an iron door trying against its break DC.

As such I don't like strength rules wise for the earthquake scene (it is however a fine handwave for 'very strong creature' but that was already done with the tower scene), I would like to have a creature that can use the spell earthquake for this scene - but similiar to giving a protean wish it is difficult to actually do without bringing in things like gibbering orbs for gaining spells, which if the Giant does fine but I don't particularly like it.
I have been thinking about this for a while and if the 'large father who eats a lot' was a reference to an adopted father in a gibbering orb I would be comfortable enough with the answer a lot more.

But I think this has largely been somewhat of a digression - if you don't see how a protean is a mystery box in concept then I am not sure there is anything to discuss about it.

What I would really like is if the anti-Protean crowd would start pitching monsters they think are better fits. Because, again, the MitD cannot be nothing; it has to be something.

I am not really in that crowd I think the protean does fit (I think I have covered how it can fit also - and with magic immunity I think I have covered the escape scene via teleportation better then the dimensional anchor does) - the fact that I don't like it as an answer doesn't mean it doesn't fit (even if some of its items might need some mental work to do).

As for something that covers the scenes better rule wise - possibly a Living Wall does (from Ravenloft Denivens of Darkness, if anyone cares to see what I mean), you would want it to be one of the ones that is said to potentially naturally occuring to avoid some of the issues narratively and you would want it to have not really absorbed many people other then the person it formed around who would in this case need to be some epic level caster.
It is however a horrible choice as it has all my issues with the protean brought up a fair few notches - namely any answer for why it does anything is 'epic level caster magic as a once a day spell like ability' this does pretty far ie, 'earthquake?, magic', 'escape?, magic', 'durability? magic', 'how does it move? magic' etc.

Narratively Living Wall is a terrible answer and where I would be fine with the Giant having a protean with unexplained powers a Living Wall I think might actually annoy me (would depend on the storytelling around if of course) a bit as it is effectively a complete cheat (if used in this manner above - they are a fine creature in general if they are not being abused).

[InvisibleBison]

This is what I mean my proteans being a mystery box - even after something is revealed to be a protean you still don't know that that specific protean can do or how it can do it.

This is not really correct. The idea that proteans can only assume the form/abilities of creatures they have encountered is not well-supported by the rules. The narrative summary implies that it is the case, but the actual rules text of the Alter Shape ability contains no such restriction. Thus, knowing that a creature is a protean only prevents you from knowing what it can do insomuch as you aren't familiar with all printed extraordinary abilities.

[Joerg]

I will reiterate, though, that nothing in the strip except the Escape scene requires the Protean to use a power that is not part of its base set.

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.

[Kish]

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.

The protean changes features randomly; if Rich, for any reason, didn't want to say "he copied Water Walk for that scene" he could easily say "he happened to have wings" or "he happened to be very light at the moment."

And "not liking" is not something anyone else needs to address. I don't like to explain the earthquake supernaturally, but I don't offer that to people looking for a supernatural explanation for it as if it's a reason they should stop.

[dancrilis]

This is not really correct. The idea that proteans can only assume the form/abilities of creatures they have encountered is not well-supported by the rules. The narrative summary implies that it is the case, but the actual rules text of the Alter Shape ability contains no such restriction. Thus, knowing that a creature is a protean only prevents you from knowing what it can do insomuch as you aren't familiar with all printed extraordinary abilities.

That is a fair criticism, I have a tendency to look at both narrative and rules and how they work together rather then seperating them out.

I don't think that it changes the discussion though, it the creature is a protean we the readers would still have the mystery on our hands (to the extent that we feel like solving it) of what actual powers were used to cover various scenes, and speaking on the protean more generally players would not know which sources the DM might have and use so the creature may still be a mystery in many cases after being told what it is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.

I still think the trackless thing is a feature of the umbrella, enchanted to keep MitD hidden, rather than MitD itself. We know that TE already goes for the "and kitchen sink" approach to item crafting & enchanting, and that Xykon spends 8 hours a day doing so in part to stave away boredom. MitD got an upgraded umbrella, so it's not that hard to believe the new one came with stealth options to address the tracks he used to leave behind.

GW

[Joerg]

The protean changes features randomly; if Rich, for any reason, didn't want to say "he copied Water Walk for that scene" he could easily say "he happened to have wings" or "he happened to be very light at the moment.

Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?

And "not liking" is not something anyone else needs to address. I don't like to explain the earthquake supernaturally, but I don't offer that to people looking for a supernatural explanation for it as if it's a reason they should stop.

Are you implying that I told people to stop explaining the earthquake by pure strength? I just mentioned my personal opinion, nothing more.

Really, the discussion climate in this thread is too aggressive for my taste. I think I'll go back to reading silently again.

[dancrilis]

Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?

Not as base, it has a speed of 50ft but without fly, climb, burrow, swim it means a land speed - and I don't think movement types normally are extraordinary but there are so many extraordinary abilities in various supplements and third party products that I would suspect you could get all of them if in some way if you wanted.

For instance a Gibbering Orb has flight as an ex ability so that could be copied.

[Kish]

Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?

Well I was, but actually looking at the SRD link, better: the protean has at-will Dimension Door and Ethereal Jaunt, as well as a random chance of having the mass of a flea at any given moment. "He didn't leave tracks here" is one thing that would never require the protean to adopt any specific trait from another creature.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I cannot prove that this was asked by Ox, but it certainly applies to some of his arguments:

8.) Do you like Denouements? I know that’s an abrupt question and obvious lead in to something else, but some people I’m arguing with are saying one of your longest running subplots isn’t having its ending foreshadowed and isn’t going to have a denouement after the climax.

I appreciate the fact that you did not actually ask me about the exact subplot in question, because obviously I wouldn’t answer that due to spoilers.

In general, yes, I think denouements are an important part of storytelling and I expect OOTS to have an extensive “wrap-up” of various plot threads after the resolution of the last actual conflict (at least those that are not resolved before or during the conflict itself). On the other hand, I know for a fact that a number of situations that I’ve seen readers deem as questions that need to be answered are definitely not going to be answered, because they’re not actually important and I’m fine with letting the details be filled in by the readers’ imaginations. So I guess the real question here is, is the subplot you’re concerned about necessarily one that I think is important enough to deserve a denouement?

(link)

As predicted by everyone except Ox, Rich does not believe that every single thread must be answered. In fact, I really doubt we will ever get a blow-by-blow of how MitD fits the scenes, and I am most certainly convinced that whatever MitD turns out to be, a number of citizens of the hellscape known as "The Internet" will be unsatisfied and be convinced it does not in fact fit the scenes.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

If "one of your longest running subplots isn’t having its ending foreshadowed and isn’t going to have a denouement after the climax" is in fact supposed to refer to anything that's been said here, I continue to be boggled by the idea that anyone said that.

[georgie_leech]

I think the disagreement is more on whether any denouement will involve revisiting past scenes to explain how the MitD achieved whatever feat, or whether we'll be left to revisit said scenes with the benefit of hindsight ourselves if we really wanna delve into the mechanics of it.

Given how willing The Giant has been to let us fill in the gaps ourselves, personally I'm leaning towards the latter. I can't see, say, any sort of direct acknowledgement of the time he knocked Miko through a wall, beyond something like "wow, he's strong!" I mean, we'll probably get some sort of exposition on what it is, but not in a "so if you go back to Strip number whatever, he did the thing because..." kind of way.

[Throknor]

I think it's much more likely that there would be details in the last book's commentary than in the actual comic. The only character that has had to guess about MITD is O-Chul and I don't expect more than a "I knew it" from him. There's little reason for anyone else to even care all that much about his species - they'll be much more concerned with however he turns against Xykon and the immediate aftermath of that.

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it. V isn't going to want to talk about their ill-advised attack. Haley and Belkar aren't going to spontaneously remember the earthquake to discuss it; heck they might not even realize it was him

Hell, the more I ramble about it the less I can see anything being discussed other than maybe O-Chul's acknowledging if he was right and more than a single panel would probably slow the scene down.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it's much more likely that there would be details in the last book's commentary than in the actual comic. The only character that has had to guess about MITD is O-Chul and I don't expect more than a "I knew it" from him. There's little reason for anyone else to even care all that much about his species - they'll be much more concerned with however he turns against Xykon and the immediate aftermath of that.

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it. V isn't going to want to talk about their ill-advised attack. Haley and Belkar aren't going to spontaneously remember the earthquake to discuss it; heck they might not even realize it was him

Hell, the more I ramble about it the less I can see anything being discussed other than maybe O-Chul's acknowledging if he was right and more than a single panel would probably slow the scene down.

Precisely.

Also, it'd be bad writing, to be perfectly honest. MitD's reveal will be a major character development moment: MitD, as a character, will take his final step in his character arc. What powers his species has is completely irrelevant to that, and thus discussing it, or even bringing it up, would be doing it a disservice. There is also the reality that most readers could not care less about it. They already know that MitD can scare small children, punch horses through walls and teleport people. Whether the species (which I'm guessing most won't recognise, on the basis that most creatures that pop into the comic are not recognisable) can or cannot do the things MitD can do will be completely unknowable to the average reader. They'll assume Rich did his homework, because 99% of the time, he has, and just enjoy the reveal for what it is in the story, not because of the kind of pedantic minutia that is our bread and butter in the confines of this thread.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Also, it'd be bad writing, to be perfectly honest. MitD's reveal will be a major character development moment: MitD, as a character, will take his final step in his character arc. What powers his species has is completely irrelevant to that, and thus discussing it, or even bringing it up, would be doing it a disservice.

I don't think that's necessarily true. The reveal could result from his powers as he uses them to help the good guys, e.g. producing another earthquake and accidentally dropping the umbrella amidst all the shaking; advancing both character and plot at the same time.

[Keltest]

I don't think that's necessarily true. The reveal could result from his powers as he uses them to help the good guys, e.g. producing another earthquake and accidentally dropping the umbrella amidst all the shaking; advancing both character and plot at the same time.

I don't think thats really what GW meant. Certainly stopping the action to get an exposition on what the MITD's species can do would bewildly disruptive for something that is, frankly, not the point.

Although if it does turn out to be a Protean, it might be necessary for that kind of exposition just because its powers are so inconsistent minute by minute that it would need explaining to the audience why he literally can't duplicate the Escape scene, for example. YMMV on whether that's a real con or not.

[Jasdoif]

Certainly stopping the action to get an exposition on what the MITD's species can do would bewildly disruptive for something that is, frankly, not the point.

Conversely, getting an explanation on what MitD's species can do during the action would be highly synergistic...and having the reveal occur as part of that same action would be even less disruptive than the (apparently common) baseline of a break in the action for MitD to reveal himself.

There's a lot of ways this could go down, many of them unknown because we don't have the full context for the reveal yet, and it can be surprisingly easy to subconsciously make assumptions. The Giant's had a lot of time to workshop how he wants the pacing to go, after all, and I'm fairly sure most of us are here because we have faith in the Giant's ability to tell us his story in an interesting way.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Conversely, getting an explanation on what MitD's species can do during the action would be highly synergistic...and having the reveal occur as part of that same action would be even less disruptive than the (apparently common) baseline of a break in the action for MitD to reveal himself.

Ok, but we already have had an explanation of what MitD can do (I suppose, more accurately we have had an exposition): his appearance can scare small children, he's strong enough to punch horses through walls when hitting lightly, and teleport friend in extremis. I'm not sure any of those powers need to be justified, especially not this long after the fact. Just as we see that Roy is strong enough to hold a rope in one hand what took two regular people to barely do with both hands, or anytime V does magic, the comic is now well-established and the story just shows what nonsense each character can do by showing it, not by stopping to explain that Roy has 25 STR and what that means for his carrying capacity versus regular STR 10 NPCs.

Will MitD continue to use powers, maybe new, maybe same of the old ones mid and post-reveal? I would imagine so, yes, But that's not the same as getting an explanation of how those powers work or what they do. Rich barely bothers with that for the MCs, and I doubt he'll bother for a secondary character whose powerset is well established by now. MitD can punch really hard, because we have seen him punch really hard, not because his species sheet says so. And if the only explanation needed is "MitD can do this because we've already seen him do this", then there really is no need for anything other that more show, not tell.

GW

[b_jonas]

Roy's strength isn't really the best example because the comic partly explains it: he got a belt of giant strength as a gift from a desert dwelling human family in #687 2nd to 3rd because Roy saved their son from the buggers. Belkar's combat efficiency with his thrown daggers against low-level monsters seems less explained to me.

Anyway, Rich won't need to explain anything about the MitD because once he reveals the answer it will turn out to be obviously a good candidate. The answer will be so accessible that we'll not understand how we hadn't found it during all the search. It will turn out that Rich has used a SEP field to hide the answer so that whenever anyone would considers that answer, they quickly ignore it for no clear reason. Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

[Ruck]

Anyway, Rich won't need to explain anything about the MitD because once he reveals the answer it will turn out to be obviously a good candidate. The answer will be so accessible that we'll not understand how we hadn't found it during all the search. It will turn out that Rich has used a SEP field to hide the answer so that whenever anyone would considers that answer, they quickly ignore it for no clear reason. Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

What makes you so sure we haven't?

[b_jonas]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click. I trust that Rich is a good writer, so whatever is the answer to his puzzle will be satisfying and seem clearly correct in hindsight, even if it's hard to find.

[hroþila]

Eh, that sounds a bit too faith-based to me. If it turns out it's a creature that was considered here at all, I'd say it's more likely that either:
a) It was acknowledged to be a decent fit overall (Some people will definitely quibble over any rules-bending)
or b) It was only considered in passing because it is a copyrighted creature.

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

[Ruck]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click.

Well, that's your opinion. I wouldn't be stating it as certain fact.

Personally, I'm increasingly confident we've figured it out. I think of everything we've found that one is by far the best fit.

I've always made allowances that there may be something better out there. But for even such a possible candidate to exist would require that somehow in the almost-15-year history of this thread and all the D&D knowledge and expertise I presume its many participants have brought to it, some significant source of highly powerful creatures was overlooked entirely. Doesn't seem very likely to me.

[b_jonas]

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal

That is definitely not what I suggest. The creature wasn't considered a poor fit. More like, most people didn't analyze the creature to get a conclusion on how good a fit it is. If someone suggested it, we mostly ignored the proposal because it didn't seem interesting. It may be in the big lists of suggested creature, but those lists are long and most entries aren't notable, so we usually don't notice it. There may be one or a few readers who did realize how good a fit it is, but readers propose all sorts of crazy creatures here, so we don't notice how special their proposal is. Or every reader might just be too lazy to write a detailed proposal, so there's nothing notable in the threads that we could even pay attention to.

[Kish]

I would venture a guess that most people believe what the creature is has been proposed. The big clashes here are not over "we don't know, how can we not know!" but over, "He's clearly this, and what do you mean by calling it unlikely due to something as irrelevant as (size/being burned by light/having no means of working magic when Rich's emphasis is CLEARLY on his power as a melee brute/being physically weak when Rich's emphasis is CLEARLY on his arcane might), how dare?"

For the past couple threads, "the candidates we discuss the most often" are all the protean because a couple people decided to try to knock the protean off the table. A relative of the Streisand effect perhaps. But the protean is still neither better nor worse as a fit than it was before that happened, nor have any of the other candidates changed because of it.

[dancrilis]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click.

That isn't really a convincing arguement for or against anything, things clicking are likely to require the reveal to see how satisfing the click actually is.

I trust that Rich is a good writer

This I think is a better answer against the protean.

Lets work on a couple of assumptions:
1. The Giant is not including misleading elements (either on purpose or by accident).
2. In SOD Redcloak indicates he knows what it is.

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

One could argue around this of course (Redcloak knew what it was but not what it could do, he never looked into the epic level handbook to find out, Rich wasn't thinking about the creature when he mentioned psionics in the comic etc) - so I don't expect this to convince anyone, but for me it is a serious con against any psionic creature (including the Protean).

Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed), it only has the following con against it:

Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.

Lets split these up:

Not surprising it can talk:
Elder Titans generally ignore everything (page 222 ELH) 'It is difficult to even get the attention of one of these beings', so while it is not surprising that it can talk it may be surprising that it does talk.

Can't explain the circus:
Elder Titans are explicitly morphic (page 222 ELH) 'each one has a unique, not necessarilly totally human, appearance' further in that entry (page 222 ELH) 'each has taken on many characteristics of the very environment in which it dwells allowing his body to alter over time'.
As such the idea that those in the circus were looking at something bizarre (perhaps particularly if the creature had added on elements of the circus), also the creature can alter self to look like what it wants or what is expected of it.

If we go through the list of criteria:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
- Many options - teleport without error is available, if we allow the creatures casting it would have either wish or miracle, if we allow its epic casting it could have a custom spell.
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
- Yes, strong and tough.
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
- Think I have covered this above.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
- Don't believe it is.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
- Yes.
6) Size/strength requirement
Colossal: 46 STR
- Nope - only 45 STR (however it retains its strenght when in smaller forms seemingly which would then work for the lower sizes).
- For the earthquake that could be casting earthquake or potentially the spell like ability soften earth and stone.
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
- Yes (high saves and spell resistance but not immune).


Whether that is a good case for an elder titan or not is up to you individually - but it is only one example I am not going to go through all the options of the list and do the same but I think it isn't unreasonable that there is a fine fit for the creature in the list we have just that nobody has bothered to decide to make a big issue out of things (this of course ignores templates etc which are also viable).

[halfeye]

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

Personally, I think it's going to be a creature of myth, legend or story, that's been dismissed in these threads because someone, somewhere, homebrewed some stats for it, and those stats don't fit. However, The Giant is going to be using the actual mythological description which is much more powerful than the homebrew.

[InvisibleBison]

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30, whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.

I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed)

I don't think the elder titan is a particularly good fit. For one thing, as a colossal creature it's much too large, both to fit under the umbrella and to fit on the circus stage. You seem to suggest that it could use alter self to get around this, but alter self only lets you assume forms up to one size smaller than your normal form, and gargantuan is also much too large for MitD's observed size. The SRD website does give the elder titan a separate Change Shape ability that does let it assume forms of an appropriate size, but as far as I can tell that ability was made up by the creator of that website. It's not present in the ELH, nor is it added in the ELH errata or the 3.5 update pamphlet.

Also, if he's using any kind of shapechanging effect during the circus scene - which he would have to be, to fit on the stage - he wouldn't retain the elder titan's weird appearance which you use as an explanation for that scene.

Also, an elder titan would not need to gain 5 levels of cleric in order to be able to cast animate dead. Elder titans cast as either 29th level clerics or wizards, so gaining the ability to cast animate dead would at most require him to gain a level of wizard and at least require him to prepare new spells.

And on a closing note, I realize the "elder" in elder titan is referring to how they are an ancient race from the dawn of time and not that they are titans who happen to be very old, but the idea of a child elder titan seems pretty silly to me. Although the ELH does say that elder titans seek out one another for "companionship, weapons practice, or some other enjoyable activity" (emphasis mine), so perhaps new ones are born from time to time.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Personally, I think it's going to be a creature of myth, legend or story, that's been dismissed in these threads because someone, somewhere, homebrewed some stats for it, and those stats don't fit. However, The Giant is going to be using the actual mythological description which is much more powerful than the homebrew.

Generally speaking, I've seen mythological versions of creatures are less powerful than their stat-ified counterparts. Certainly not universal, of course, but a lot that has been discussed in this thread have followed that trend.

[dancrilis]

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30, whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.

A mind flayers psionics are of the (SP) variety rather then the (PS) variety (page 187 monster manual).

I don't think the elder titan is a particularly good fit. For one thing, as a colossal creature it's much too large, both to fit under the umbrella and to fit on the circus stage. You seem to suggest that it could use alter self to get around this, but alter self only lets you assume forms up to one size smaller than your normal form, and gargantuan is also much too large for MitD's observed size. The SRD website does give the elder titan a separate Change Shape ability that does let it assume forms of an appropriate size, but as far as I can tell that ability was made up by the creator of that website. It's not present in the ELH, nor is it added in the ELH errata or the 3.5 update pamphlet.

Also, if he's using any kind of shapechanging effect during the circus scene - which he would have to be, to fit on the stage - he wouldn't retain the elder titan's weird appearance which you use as an explanation for that scene.

Also, an elder titan would not need to gain 5 levels of cleric in order to be able to cast animate dead. Elder titans cast as either 29th level clerics or wizards, so gaining the ability to cast animate dead would at most require him to gain a level of wizard and at least require him to prepare new spells.

And on a closing note, I realize the "elder" in elder titan is referring to how they are an ancient race from the dawn of time and not that they are titans who happen to be very old, but the idea of a child elder titan seems pretty silly to me. Although the ELH does say that elder titans seek out one another for "companionship, weapons practice, or some other enjoyable activity" (emphasis mine), so perhaps new ones are born from time to time.

This is all fair enough - I am not particularly trying to say 'I suggest this' more that I think there are a number of creatures that are mentioned in the opening posts which might fit very well but which have limited information about them included - the idea that it is one of them is not unreasonable (as b_jonas indicated).