MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Kish]

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30, whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.

Indeed. I would say: Redcloak didn't know about psionics, therefore no creature which is only able to do things he explicitly expected the creature in the darkness to do because of psionics is suitable.

...and the only thing he's ever indicated expecting the creature in the darkness to do, is "kill." And I am quite sure there is no powerful-with-or-without-psionics creature that absolutely needs psionics to do that.

[lio45]

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it.

Exactly, but of these three, only the Tower Scene might "need revisiting", depending on what MitD turns out to be; the other two scenes are pretty easily passed and it's a safe bet there won't be much (if any) controversy about them, whatever MitD turns out to be.

Personally, my bet is that none of these scenes will need any revisiting, because MitD will fit them all well (i.e. he'll have incredibly high STR).

[Throknor]

Exactly, but of these three, only the Tower Scene might "need revisiting", depending on what MitD turns out to be; the other two scenes are pretty easily passed and it's a safe bet there won't be much (if any) controversy about them, whatever MitD turns out to be.

Personally, my bet is that none of these scenes will need any revisiting, because MitD will fit them all well (i.e. he'll have incredibly high STR).

The only two in comic characters aware of the Tower Scene would have no reason to discuss it so it won't be revisited in comic is my point.

As to whether Rich might discuss it in the book all I can think is that without another book coming out he'll need to discuss something and the MITD is at least probably in the list. I feel that his comments about a denouement refers to the traditional definition of an in-story wrap up not tying up loose ends. He has often used his book commentaries to flesh out things that aren't explicit in-comic so I would personally find it more surprising if he said nothing.

Whether he will say enough about the MITD to satisfy everyone (or even anyone I suppose) is another metric altogether.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only two in comic characters aware of the Tower Scene would have no reason to discuss it so it won't be revisited in comic is my point.

I'm confused. There are three characters aware of the Tower scene. One is a celestial horse, one is dead, and the last is MitD. Are y'all talking about the Escape scene instead?

GW

[OvisCaedo]

Well, Redcloak and Xykon might be aware of the Tower scene, actually. Or at least saw the paladin and the horse come flying out of the wall. But they also didn't think anything of it other than "see I knew MitD would let them escape if we told him not to". So, presumably it just made perfect sense with what they knew of the creature's strength or abilities, and yeah I don't think they will ever mention it.

edit: Though only Redcloak seemed to be looking through a spyglass, so Xykon might not know the specifics of how Miko left the tower. Honestly, Redcloak might not either, he might have just seen them riding off after. But he was specifically watching for their escape, so he definitely might have seen the horse fly.

[b_jonas]

Oh, about the tower scene. In #200 last to #201 second panel, when Miko smites Roy, Roy says “It didn't exactly tickle, honey.” But in #374 second to third panel, when Miko attacks the MitD, the MitD says it tickles. Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, about the tower scene. In #200 last to #201 second panel, when Miko smites Roy, Roy says “It didn't exactly tickle, honey.” But in #374 second to third panel, when Miko attacks the MitD, the MitD says it tickles. Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

Yes? It's a common way of describing a weak attack that didn't hurt.

GW

[Kish]

It's almost like they were written by the same author or something.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure where else that even could go. A link between Roy and the creature in the darkness? Miko's katana having a Merciful enchantment? (Count the reasons that last one's not going to be the case.)

[b_jonas]

I don't know really, I just found the wording curious. Roy says “that's odd” and it's not clear what about. He went to fighter college and knows a few things about sword attacks, so maybe he expects for some reason that the attack can tickle. But mostly it's not that, it's just that we expect the Giant to be very careful when he writes the MitD's scenes, so any word, even “tickles” could be a clue that he dropped deliberately.

[Kish]

Roy says it's odd that someone just yelled SMITE EVIL while stabbing him because he knows he's not evil.

I wish to formally absent myself from any We that parses Rich's words at the "saying a katana attack does or does not tickle" level.

[Satohika]

O'Chul's comment about the monster indicates that he's something incredible, something one hardly believes that he's one of them, and and stay with Xykon. Is Protean a creature that hard to believe to see with Xykon? It might be from upper planes, which explains why O'Chul thought that the monster wouldn't believe him.

Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

Not unless you mean it as "writer's barely disguised fetish" sort of way, no. But I wouldn't expect Mr. Burlew to act like someone with that sort of preference.

[Kish]

O-Chul; O'Chul is his seldom-seen (but often referenced on the forum) Irish cousin.

Proteans are epic monsters, and all epic monsters are extremely rare. If the creature is a protean--

--or, indeed, almost any other proposed creature--

--O-Chul's comment points to him being unlikely to find anywhere, not specifically unlikely to find with Xykon. If he was a celestial creature, then I would expect--well, Redcloak to have responded to him at first meeting with hostility and probable fear, for one thing, and both Xykon and Redcloak to be much more eager to go to "he's acting against us!" as an explanation both for things that is the correct explanation for, and things it is not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

O'Chul's comment about the monster indicates that he's something incredible, something one hardly believes that he's one of them, and and stay with Xykon. Is Protean a creature that hard to believe to see with Xykon? It might be from upper planes, which explains why O'Chul thought that Hinjo wouldn't believe him.

There are many ways in which that line could be taken. From the basic "he's too powerful to be beholden to anyone" to "it is such a weird concept I can't even believe it exists" to "it is a creature from a different setting" to anything else, really. O-Chuls' "MitD wouldn't believe me when I tell him what he is" is one of those too-vague-to-be-useful asides that will probably be easily recontextualised once we have the answer, and until then it is just too plastic to reasonably deduce from.

GW

[b_jonas]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.

Yes, I said as much here.

GW

[Throknor]

I'm confused. There are three characters aware of the Tower scene. One is a celestial horse, one is dead, and the last is MitD. Are y'all talking about the Escape scene instead?

GW

Well, Redcloak and Xykon might be aware of the Tower scene, actually. Or at least saw the paladin and the horse come flying out of the wall. But they also didn't think anything of it other than "see I knew MitD would let them escape if we told him not to". So, presumably it just made perfect sense with what they knew of the creature's strength or abilities, and yeah I don't think they will ever mention it.

edit: Though only Redcloak seemed to be looking through a spyglass, so Xykon might not know the specifics of how Miko left the tower. Honestly, Redcloak might not either, he might have just seen them riding off after. But he was specifically watching for their escape, so he definitely might have seen the horse fly.

Exactly. Team Evil knows they got knocked through the wall and landed far enough away that Redcloak needed a spyglass to see where they landed. If they were ever going to have a reaction to the fact that the MITD could hit them that far through a wall it would have been right then but they clearly weren't at all surprised that he could do that. What I was trying to point out: no one will be discussing that scene in comic just because the MITD is revealed.

I think I was making a point about doubting there would be any on-screen loose-end-tying-up discussion about the "big scenes", specifically with an example of one of the scenes that it wouldn't even occur to anyone to discuss. (Other than a possible "I was right" from O-Chul, of course.)

[Crusher]

A note on Section 3c (copyrighted ideas): it lists the Heffalump (from Winnie the Pooh). The Heffalump first appeared in story 5 "in which Piglet meets a Heffalump" of the collection Winnie-the-Pooh by A. A. Milne, originally published in Britain in 1926.

In the UK, the copyright term is author's death plus 70 years, and A. A. Milne died in 1956, so Winnie-the-Pooh and the Heffalump will be out of copyright in the UK at the end of 2026. But the Giant is in the US, where the copyright term for works published abroad before 1978 is date of publication plus 95 years, so the Heffalump has been out of copyright in the US since the end of 2022.

As we learned from the 2023 introduction of "Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey" which I'm pretty sure Milne's estate would *not* have approved if they had the authority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3E74j_xFtg

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

I do think your "option a)" is correct, but I *strongly* disagree with this point. We have seen at least one candidate (the Glabrezu and to a lesser degree the Slaad) languishing in the huge list of proposed candidates before one of the big "I propose X" posts came along championing them sufficiently well to get them onto the FBS list. Looking at monsters from different angles and in different contexts can *absolutely* make them retroactively look like a much better fit.

[Crusher]

Protean with sorcerer levels enough to cast Wish, if it's possible rule-wise. If it can't be a sorcerer, then no.

I know of no restrictions against Protean having class levels, so I'll put you down for a "Protean with sorcerer levels"

What about a Wingless Wonder?

Putting you down for a Wingless Wonder as your guess.

[hroþila]

I do think your "option a)" is correct, but I *strongly* disagree with this point. We have seen at least one candidate (the Glabrezu and to a lesser degree the Slaad) languishing in the huge list of proposed candidates before one of the big "I propose X" posts came along championing them sufficiently well to get them onto the FBS list. Looking at monsters from different angles and in different contexts can *absolutely* make them retroactively look like a much better fit.

I think your point is kinda undermined by the fact that the Glabrezu has already been on the list of forerunner candidates for 9 years (since MitD VIII), and the Slaad for at least 13 (it was listed as the top contender in MitD II).

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure the white/black slaad went straight to what was then called the forerunners category as soon as it was proposed, yes.

(Don't know about the glabrezu; I continue to hate the glabrezu for being too large and too weak.)

[dancrilis]

If he was a celestial creature, then I would expect--well, Redcloak to have responded to him at first meeting with hostility and probable fear

This is related to one of the reasons I am somewhat dubious about any creature from the epic level handbook - I would expect Redcloak to respond to it with a more caution to any of them.

Not a major issue but just something of an oddity in my view if the creature turns out to be an abomination or protean or the like.

[Kish]

Redcloak's immediate response to meeting the creature in the darkness was

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

to question why he let himself be kept in a cage by a circus when he could effortlessly kill them all. Then he set out to convince the creature to go along with being rescued/stolen from the circus because he believed his overwhelming power would be useful to him

.

[Crusher]

I think your point is kinda undermined by the fact that the Glabrezu has already been on the list of forerunner candidates for 9 years (since MitD VIII), and the Slaad for at least 13 (it was listed as the top contender in MitD II).

Glabrezu was on the overall list starting from MitD II (when it initially started), but not the top list (which existed at the time as the Forerunners. FBS came in V) until VIII, after this post https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=220 got people to vote it into the FBS list. So, yeah, that was a change from seeing in a different light.

Edit - Also, that post was shortly followed by a post by me in which I made perhaps my favorite comment ever on these threads. I still enjoy it, and will take the opportunity to re-post an excerpt in Spoilers so everyone else can ignore it.

Spoiler: Glabrezu in action

Show

It does back-handedly suggest the Glabrezus are perhaps the "B" team when it comes to cleverly manipulating and corrupting people.



Glabrezu: "And while I will grant your wish to become master of all things cold, you phrased your wish poorly and there will be an EVIL PRICE TO BE PAID!"

Wishing Person: "OH NO! WHAT HAVE I DONE?"

Balor: (nods approvingly)

Glabrezu: "You must eat Popsicles until you get a cold-headache to fuel your power! BWAHAHAHAHA!"

Wishing Person: "Um... yeah, ok."

Balor: (facepalm)

[Ruck]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.

Yes, I said as much here.

GW

Well, it's a little presumptuous to say the bolded, but also, there aren't a whole lot of "longest-running subplots," so having gotten that out of the way...

If the idea of "denouement" is "Rich writes new material explaining why MitD fits every scene that this thread deemed important," then no, I find it highly unlikely that's going to happen.

Because the MitD's species isn't a "subplot." The MitD's character journey to making his own decisions and ultimately to fighting for what's right is.

[b_jonas]

Well, it's a little presumptuous to say the bolded, but also, there aren't a whole lot of "longest-running subplots," so having gotten that out of the way...

Admittedly it could also refer to Tarqin and the three evil empires on the Western Continent.

[Omomuro]

Hello, all! I've some updates to give about one entry (and a related creature) on the Proposed Ideas list mainly to clarify why it should be excluded, although it does have some interesting ideas about it. I refer to the demon lord Ilsidahur, misspelled "Ilsidaur" on the list (that's clarification no.1)

One of the statements concerning Ilsidahur is that "Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)"; the fact of the matter is that between 1988 and 2006 there were no other versions of Ilsidahur if this writeup is to be believed, and the latter date is obviously too late for Rich to have used its stats.

This is how he looks in his debut appearance, Dungeon #10; you certainly don't see horned orangutans every day but I wouldn't reel in horror at this visage:



This is his 1988 statblock:





Out of everything in there, I think the teleportation and howl are of particular interest (with the 20ft darkness, polymorphing and permanent illusion as useful add-ons), but there is one trait amongst his subject people that may be worth noting, namely the simian Bar-Lgura (stats are accurate to the 2002 Book of Vile Darkness), which is cause fear as regards the circus scene - but I think that's a stretch too. The bar-lgura can also cast teleport without error, like their lord.

While the bar-lgura's puny CR 5 and STR 22 can't cut it, you can kind of see how some overlap between the bar-lgura and their lord Ilsidahur (who is stated to be unique) could stack up to meet MitD's traits, but this presupposes that Ilsidahur is a representative of the bar-lgura race and that they could somehow interbreed to make a demi-lordish demon, which is zooming way across the "fine line" of Rich's if we're going to assume this much.

In short, what I'm suggesting to amend to the Ilsidahur entry is:

1. Correct the spelling of his name
2. List teleportation, howl, darkness, polymorphing and maybe the illusion as positives
3. Clarify that no versions of him existed between 1988 and 2006 (Fiendish Codex I: Lords of the Abyss)
4. Maybe add that he does have a non-unique subject people, or have the Bar-lgura as a separate entry but rule it out on its miserable CR5/STR22.

[mashlagoo1982]

That isn't really a convincing arguement for or against anything, things clicking are likely to require the reveal to see how satisfing the click actually is.


This I think is a better answer against the protean.

Lets work on a couple of assumptions:
1. The Giant is not including misleading elements (either on purpose or by accident).
2. In SOD Redcloak indicates he knows what it is.

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

One could argue around this of course (Redcloak knew what it was but not what it could do, he never looked into the epic level handbook to find out, Rich wasn't thinking about the creature when he mentioned psionics in the comic etc) - so I don't expect this to convince anyone, but for me it is a serious con against any psionic creature (including the Protean).



I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed), it only has the following con against it:

Lets split these up:

Not surprising it can talk:
Elder Titans generally ignore everything (page 222 ELH) 'It is difficult to even get the attention of one of these beings', so while it is not surprising that it can talk it may be surprising that it does talk.

Can't explain the circus:
Elder Titans are explicitly morphic (page 222 ELH) 'each one has a unique, not necessarilly totally human, appearance' further in that entry (page 222 ELH) 'each has taken on many characteristics of the very environment in which it dwells allowing his body to alter over time'.
As such the idea that those in the circus were looking at something bizarre (perhaps particularly if the creature had added on elements of the circus), also the creature can alter self to look like what it wants or what is expected of it.

If we go through the list of criteria:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
- Many options - teleport without error is available, if we allow the creatures casting it would have either wish or miracle, if we allow its epic casting it could have a custom spell.
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
- Yes, strong and tough.
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
- Think I have covered this above.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
- Don't believe it is.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
- Yes.
6) Size/strength requirement
Colossal: 46 STR
- Nope - only 45 STR (however it retains its strenght when in smaller forms seemingly which would then work for the lower sizes).
- For the earthquake that could be casting earthquake or potentially the spell like ability soften earth and stone.
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
- Yes (high saves and spell resistance but not immune).


Whether that is a good case for an elder titan or not is up to you individually - but it is only one example I am not going to go through all the options of the list and do the same but I think it isn't unreasonable that there is a fine fit for the creature in the list we have just that nobody has bothered to decide to make a big issue out of things (this of course ignores templates etc which are also viable).

I was just looking at Elder Titan last week and wanted to revisit it as a possible candidate.

I understand that it was disqualified because it wouldn't be surprising it could speak.
But as others have stated, I noticed it can change its shape to any other giant or humanoid of small to huge sizes. I didn't know what the limitations of that ability were though.

Is this homebrew or legit RAW rules?

Does the titan retain its physical characteristics?

Are there any shapes it could change into that would not be expected to speak?

It would also give more meaning [though it would be unnecessary] to RC's claim of knowing what MitD is.
If MitD was in another shape, most people would probably not assume it to be something else.

[Kish]

My big objection to elder titan would be that elder titans are elder: described as eons older than titans.

If one considered it viable for Rich to say "if two elder titans had a baby, it would be a baby elder titan," then it would be a very good fit.

(This is the source I would suggest looking at for information on elder titans; the SRD is mostly limited to stats and dandwiki is an abomination.)

[InvisibleBison]

But as others have stated, I noticed it can change its shape to any other giant or humanoid of small to huge sizes. I didn't know what the limitations of that ability were though.

Is this homebrew or legit RAW rules?

It is homebrew, or perhaps an error by the people who made the d20srd website, if they thought the elder titan had the same shapechanging ability as a regular titan. The entry in the ELH doesn't have any such ability, and it's not added by the ELH errata or 3.5 update pamphlet.

[Keltest]

My big objection to elder titan would be that elder titans are elder: described as eons older than titans.

If one considered it viable for Rich to say "if two elder titans had a baby, it would be a baby elder titan," then it would be a very good fit.

(This is the source I would suggest looking at for information on elder titans; the SRD is mostly limited to stats and dandwiki is an abomination.)

There are plenty of works where you have races like elves and/or dwarves called "elder folk" or "elder races", so theres certainly precedent for a species as a whole being termed "elder" while individuals can be of any age.