Are Druids too complex... or just boring?

[Unoriginal]

Actually, I think that character bridges the gap between confident adventurer and useless commoner. She chose to roleplay this character with struggles (of the non-edgelord type, heaven forbid).

The roleplaying choices are not the issue here. The choices of the adaptation's writers are.

From interviews with the entire cast, apparently they were prepared to go in fighting tooth and nail to make sure it was done properly, and they didn't need to fight much. A lot of it was to their expectation and anything that wasn't, they were there every step of the way for correction.

Yeah, that's marketing. They weren't going to tell the CR viewers that the cartoon adaptation was not done properly.

If you want to be generous, you can say they were convinced that the changes that happened were necessary to make it work as an animated series.

Well don't hold back man, tell us how you really feel

That would get me permabanned from this forum.

Big magic should have a cost to it, the magic system in D&D is so badly flawed in that regard, powerful magic safely cast with no cost till you run out slots for it.

But that's the thing, they chose to portray the Bard's magic as the typical D&D no-cost-just-spend-your-slots style.

If they wanted to change the magic systems for increased stakes/tension/drama/weight of the action, why not, but changing the rules for Keyleth (and also Vex since they removed her spellcasting) and not for Scanlan is a problem.

[animorte]

If you want to be generous, you can say they were convinced that the changes that happened were necessary to make it work as an animated series.

That's fair. I do believe something of that nature was mentioned. Of course it needed changes, and the cast seemed happy with what was necessary within those limits.

[Witty Username]

[1] Although my personal opinion is that D&D wizards do depend on talent more than stated. But wizard-supremacists hate that argument =)

Its the only way that makes sense to me really.

I personally see it as wizard is a mix of natural talent and understanding/creativity. Talent doesn’t get one very far without experience, knowledge and motivation.

Sorcerer is the weird one to me as it comes off as natural talent plus stupidity, more in practice than necessity, there is nothing prohibiting a sorcerer from having high int and understanding magic, but usually it comes with costs that makes the character less effective.

[Jophiel]

This can’t be done in AL and even outside of AL if you go outside of RAW you’ll probably have some players saying that’s not RAW and b*tch nonstop like some fans are doing already about the movie.

Can still fluff it though, even in AL. In my years of AL playing/running experience, that would have been fine at every table I've played at or ran. I'm sure someone out there would be a dink about it but any large enough population is going to have some dinks in it.

Your newbie player wouldn't be able to turn into an owlbear (CR3) until 9th level anyway (ignoring the creature type) so letting them fluff a black/brown/polar bear actually gets them what they really wanted that much faster. Hopefully, by 9th level, they're invested in their character and the game for reasons beyond "Wanna be an owlbear".

[Psyren]

That would get me permabanned from this forum.

Over a cartoon? ...oooookay.

Can still fluff it though, even in AL. In my years of AL playing/running experience, that would have been fine at every table I've played at or ran. I'm sure someone out there would be a dink about it but any large enough population is going to have some dinks in it.

AL will be just as fine with the OneD&D Wild Shape too.

Your newbie player wouldn't be able to turn into an owlbear (CR3) until 9th level anyway (ignoring the creature type) so letting them fluff a brown bear actually gets them what they really wanted that much faster. Hopefully, by 9th level, they're invested in their character and the game for reasons beyond "Wanna be an owlbear".

And the OneD&D version can get it at level 1, under any DM.

[Jophiel]

AL will be just as fine with the OneD&D Wild Shape too

Sure, but the movie releases this month and the new ruleset won't be AL legal for a long time yet.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Yeah, that's marketing. They weren't going to tell the CR viewers that the cartoon adaptation was not done properly.

If you want to be generous, you can say they were convinced that the changes that happened were necessary to make it work as an animated series.

You could make that argument IF.. The Caster weren't also Executive Producers with massive amounts of control and the directing and such was not littered with fans and members and former guest players.

Keyleth doesn't get tired all the time, she has moments of being tired after her really big stuff and then KEEPS casting. The only time I can remember her being weak and doing the whole force herself up and push through to cast was blasting Briadwood with the Sun Tree. And that was exhaustion from spell casting, that was injury from said vampire batting her across the entire room into a wall.

In fact, I can't really remember a big spell makes tired that was significant, but I also admit my memory is not perfect, could you provide an example?

[animorte]

You could make that argument IF.. The Caster weren't also Executive Producers with massive amounts of control and the directing and such was not littered with fans and members and former guest players.

I also considered going this route of discussion. The voice actor of Keyleth specifically being in a position of massive amounts of creative control and the voice actor for Grog actually owns Critical Role.

[False God]

Big magic should have a cost to it, the magic system in D&D is so badly flawed in that regard, powerful magic safely cast with no cost till you run out slots for it.

Well, it does. Slots are the cost. They're a rather awkward representation of your magical power. Once you use the slot, you've spent that power.

Points represent it better, the drain over time from casting. But D&D would probably be well served with a Fatigue mechanic wherein every spell or action wore you out over time. Though with an HP bar, an SP bar, and a FP bar, we're pretty close to playing Elder Scrolls at the table (not that I'm knocking it, those games are popular for a reason). But it would certainly lessen the D&D feel. Though I suppose there's a question of if its more important for the "D&D Feel*TM" to be one of good design, or tradition.

[Psyren]

Sure, but the movie releases this month and the new ruleset won't be AL legal for a long time yet.

I think newcomers will be understanding if told that new books are coming next year to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D&D.

[Pooky the Imp]

Well, it does. Slots are the cost.

A cost that has no use outside of the magic you're using it for is not a cost.

[KorvinStarmast]

He was a nature caster for the most part. Underground? Wall spells were really useful. Backup healer is always needed. If the rogue was surrounded, a predator would leap to the rescue. Sneaky? Squirrel at your service.

Why did my druid leave the woods? To help a party member walking through them who ran into trouble. Why did he stay with the party? He fell for the rogue. That story fits for any class.

He did not have to be Radagast or a Celt. He could have been a Iroquois shaman. Mine happened to be based off of Tommy Chong, loved tie-dye and his pipe.

I love this post and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Big magic should have a cost to it, the magic system in D&D is so badly flawed in that regard, powerful magic safely cast with no cost till you run out slots for it.

Not sure how to fold the exhaustion mechanic into it, but maybe that's a path forward in D&Done.

Well, it does. Slots are the cost.

The only cost I have seen in play is opportunity cost. Only ever seen one Evoker use overchannel, and that was in a one shot.

[False God]

The only cost I have seen in play is opportunity cost. Only ever seen one Evoker use overchannel, and that was in a one shot.

In a very basic, boiled down sense, opportunity is cost is the only cost in D&D at all. Taking this Feat uses up the feat slot. Choosing to attack or cast a spell prevents you from doing the other. But that's just how D&D works.

A cost that has no use outside of the magic you're using it for is not a cost.

But that's how all things D&D works. Everything only applies to its own little area. It's still a cost, once I've used up all my 6th Level Slots I can't cast any more 6th level spells. But all "costs" of D&D are isolated to the section of the game they're using. Magic costs apply to the magic area. Feats apply to the feat area. Levels apply to the level area. Skills apply to the skill area. The cost of doing A is not being able to do B.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying these are good costs or good game design, I'm just saying it is a cost, and thats how D&D works.

Everything beyond that is asking for the inclusion of something new that D&D has never done, or modification of something that exists in a way the game has never used before. And especially when asking for changes to spellcasting, we're talking about massive, intensive game-wide systemic changes.

[OvisCaedo]

Well hey, there's also Berserker Barbarian! That has a cost! Which uh... makes the subclass pretty universally disliked.

[Kane0]

Though with an HP bar, an SP bar, and a FP bar, we're pretty close to playing Elder Scrolls at the table (not that I'm knocking it, those games are popular for a reason). But it would certainly lessen the D&D feel.

You could merge the SP and FP resources.

[Pooky the Imp]

It's still a cost, once I've used up all my 6th Level Slots I can't cast any more 6th level spells. But all "costs" of D&D are isolated to the section of the game they're using. Magic costs apply to the magic area.

Let me give you an analogy. Imagine a theme park that's free to enter and gives you 10 tokens to spend on rides. Once you use your tokens, you can't go on any more rides until the next day, when they'll give you 10 more tokens. Also, the tokens are date-stamped and you can only use the ones for the current day (so you can't save them up).

The rides technically have a cost (because you're paying in tokens). However, you get the tokens back each day and there is nothing else you can use them for, so for all practical purposes, the rides are completely free.

It's the same story with D&D magic. Yes, casting spells uses spell slots. But you get your spell slots for free each day and there's nothing else you can do with them but cast spells.

Thus, for all practical purposes, spells in D&D have no real-world cost.

[False God]

You could merge the SP and FP resources.

You could, but you shouldn't...

Because the point is to increase MAD by introducing multiple resource systems that players need to moderate their usage of. FP keys off say, Con and SP keys off Int. With some very base points based on class and level. WotC and others keep talking about "well how do you limit nova-ing or high-level spells?

This is how you do it, because like the saves of old, each class will be good in one area, and bad in another. You use that "bad area" to act as a buffer to keep a class from only ever having to worry about it's "good area".

Multiple Resource Management is key to balancing games. Single Resource Dependency is what allows games to rapidly become unbalanced.

Because functionally, HP should be discarded as a resource you need to manage because it's not a resource you can actively use. If you could actively use your HP to say, cast Blood Magic, or continue attacking after your Fatigue bar has run out, then great (and I think these are things that should be included, in part because Rule of Three), but currently adding an SP bar is pretty doable (spell points variant) but it's the FP bar that requires the real work, because since both magic-users and mundanes would use FP, you'd need to reasonably balance their usage and amount of FP.

Let me give you an analogy. Imagine a theme park that's free to enter and gives you 10 tokens to spend on rides. Once you use your tokens, you can't go on any more rides until the next day, when they'll give you 10 more tokens. Also, the tokens are date-stamped and you can only use the ones for the current day (so you can't save them up).

The rides technically have a cost (because you're paying in tokens). However, you get the tokens back each day and there is nothing else you can use them for, so for all practical purposes, the rides are completely free.

It's the same story with D&D magic. Yes, casting spells uses spell slots. But you get your spell slots for free each day and there's nothing else you can do with them but cast spells.

Thus, for all practical purposes, spells in D&D have no real-world cost.

Yes...but that's the next day. You can't talk about costs in the now while referencing returns in the future. That's like saying "This dress didn't cost me anything at all, because I get paid again next week!"

It sounds like you're asking for permanent costs.

[Pooky the Imp]

Yes...but that's the next day. You can't talk about costs in the now while referencing returns in the future. That's like saying "This dress didn't cost me anything at all, because I get paid again next week!"

That isn't the same thing at all. Again, please re-read my analogy.

Money spent on a dress could be spent on any number of other things instead. Meanwhile, the theme park tokens in my analogy have no purpose or value beyond that theme park, and you get them for free every day.

It sounds like you're asking for permanent costs.

Not permanent, just something that has ramifications beyond "not being able to cast more spells of that level until you get more for free tomorrow".

e.g. paying a hit point cost would make you more vulnerable in combat. Paying in ability scores would affect your ability to fight with mundane abilities and succeed in skill checks and saving throws. Paying with levels of exhaustion would also weaken you and could easily kill you.

I give these just as examples (not suggestions). But the point is that for magic's cost to be meaningful, it has to be something that either affects you in ways beyond your ability to cast more spells that day, or else has to have some sort of scarcity value (i.e. not something that replenishes automatically, every day, at no cost).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I also considered going this route of discussion. The voice actor of Keyleth specifically being in a position of massive amounts of creative control and the voice actor for Grog actually owns Critical Role.

Not quite owned, but yeah. Each of Vox Machina's Voice actors plus Mercer have ownership stakes in the company.

Grog's is the CEO.
Brimscythe/Sylas Briarwood's is the CCO
Keyleth's is the Creative Director

Additionally the Voice Director and thus the person behind how the voices should come across and coaching the voice actors is also the voice of Zahra in the series, etc etc etc.

[Bohandas]

The problem I see with Druid theming is not that it's weak or unpopular, but that it's...misdirected. As you say, the literal inspirations (i.e. fictional characters that are called "druids", like Allanon) tend to be better represented by the Wizard or other Classes. Where Druid should lean, IMO, is in what it actually does and who, in fiction and history, the Class actually represents; the witch and witch-doctor, the shaman and spirit-talker, the fae-charmed shapeshifter and the beast-friend.

and also hippies, don't forget hippies

[Kane0]

You could, but you shouldn't...

Because the point is to increase MAD by introducing multiple resource systems that players need to moderate their usage of. FP keys off say, Con and SP keys off Int. With some very base points based on class and level. WotC and others keep talking about "well how do you limit nova-ing or high-level spells?

This is how you do it, because like the saves of old, each class will be good in one area, and bad in another. You use that "bad area" to act as a buffer to keep a class from only ever having to worry about it's "good area".

Multiple Resource Management is key to balancing games. Single Resource Dependency is what allows games to rapidly become unbalanced.

Few weeks back we posited an arrangement of:
Number of magicks known = INT
Amount of magical reserve = WIS
Strength of magicks (ie DC/Attack bonus) = CHA

And of course you also want Dex and Con for things like AC, initiative, HP and saves. Str might still be important for carrying stuff and some saves but the fighting types would have more emphasis on the physical stats than the mental ones (but still wanting them to know stuff, detect things, interact with people, make saves, etc).

Getting a health bar and resource bar (fatigue/stamina, magic, etc) could be as simple as not basing them both off Con (especially if you change around the six, but that's a major sacred cow), or hey if you're fiddling with going back to Fort/Ref/Will saves have each of those also create your resource bars used in different ways by different classes.

[Leon]

Well, it does. Slots are the cost. They're a rather awkward representation of your magical power. Once you use the slot, you've spent that power.

Slots are not a Cost, they are a counting metric nothing more. That Earth shattering High level spell you just cast N times, free and safely has no accountability.
A Cost is that spell has a price to pay that IS noticeable ~ be it a check to pass with a fail state, a cost in blood, energy or materials, the fact that if you miss it could go where you don't want it to.

[Schwann145]

In regards to cost... It's always important to remember that D&D is a roleplaying game.

The "cost" is your requirement to roleplay a thing properly.
For instance, channeling a lot of magic through your person is probably going to effect you, even if only for a moment. Taking a quick breather after a big spell (even if there's no mechanical hindrance built-in) is not only quite reasonable, it's also good roleplaying.

Keyleth is "tired" after doing some big spells, but never in a way that is detrimental to what she/the party is doing. She doesn't lose consciousness, or lose the ability to throw another spell immediately, or anything like that.
In other words, Keyleth is treated as a person who is going through things, rather than a wooden, emotionless, featureless, character sprite who is only ever effected by mechanics.

[False God]

Few weeks back we posited an arrangement of:
Number of magicks known = INT
Amount of magical reserve = WIS
Strength of magicks (ie DC/Attack bonus) = CHA

And of course you also want Dex and Con for things like AC, initiative, HP and saves. Str might still be important for carrying stuff and some saves but the fighting types would have more emphasis on the physical stats than the mental ones (but still wanting them to know stuff, detect things, interact with people, make saves, etc).

Getting a health bar and resource bar (fatigue/stamina, magic, etc) could be as simple as not basing them both off Con (especially if you change around the six, but that's a major sacred cow), or hey if you're fiddling with going back to Fort/Ref/Will saves have each of those also create your resource bars used in different ways by different classes.

In reverse order:
Yeah, keying "HP" and "Fatigue" off different stats has been a trick I've been trying to figure out, though keying two primary resources off a score that doesn't really contribute much to the game currently isn't terrible. I figured "each class adds a unique amount to each" is probably a solid solution, so Casters will get relatively little fatigue and high SP, while martials will get relatively little SP (Everyone gets the 3 bars, even if they don't use it as part of their class it can power stuff like magic items or scrolls) and a lot of Fatigue.

I think that probably, each score should relate to two sub-scores. Spitballing here....
Strength gives you physical damage and carrying capacity.
Dex gives you AC and targeting (all targeted attacks, including spells, would key off Dex for accuracy)
Con gives you HP and FP (even if these are tied together the value of other scores will mean you can't just pump Con alone)
Int gives you bonus skills and bonus spells
Wis gives you more spell points and better saves
Cha gives you spell potency (more damage, harder spell DCs)

At a minimum everyone will need to value 2 primary scores, put some value into one of two secondary scores, and can probably ignore the last 2 scores provided the party rounds everything out.

[Leon]

In regards to cost... It's always important to remember that D&D is a roleplaying game.

And?
There are many roleplaying games with magic systems that do have a fail state or a tangible cost to them and they are more interesting for that ~ its the gamble of do you use this Powerful ability despite the risk that it could pose, most of the time it does what its supposed to do and then it when it doesn't or it does much more than it was supposed that become memorable moments for the campaign.

[Schwann145]

And?
There are many roleplaying games with magic systems that do have a fail state or a tangible cost to them and they are more interesting for that ~ its the gamble of do you use this Powerful ability despite the risk that it could pose, most of the time it does what its supposed to do and then it when it doesn't or it does much more than it was supposed that become memorable moments for the campaign.

The original criticism was:

From what I heard, they made Keyleth-from-the-cartoon suffer from the old "Big Magic Makes Girl Tired" bovine manure, and removed or diminished a lot of her demonstrations of power.

Frankly, if the changes are a tenth as bad as what I've been told, that show is an insult to Keyleth and to all D&D Druids in general.

Roleplaying exhaustion, even when the mechanics don't require it, is as I said: quite reasonable, and good roleplaying.

(Also, fwiw, Keyleth was doing some *crazy big* magical stuff in the animation - if D&D Druids could be even close to what was shown for Keyleth, they'd be WAY more popular!)

[Hurrashane]

Few weeks back we posited an arrangement of:
Number of magicks known = INT
Amount of magical reserve = WIS
Strength of magicks (ie DC/Attack bonus) = CHA

And of course you also want Dex and Con for things like AC, initiative, HP and saves. Str might still be important for carrying stuff and some saves but the fighting types would have more emphasis on the physical stats than the mental ones (but still wanting them to know stuff, detect things, interact with people, make saves, etc).

Getting a health bar and resource bar (fatigue/stamina, magic, etc) could be as simple as not basing them both off Con (especially if you change around the six, but that's a major sacred cow), or hey if you're fiddling with going back to Fort/Ref/Will saves have each of those also create your resource bars used in different ways by different classes.

I'll take a hard pass on making the game more MAD. I kind of prefer my characters to be able to be mechanically different from eachother without it negatively impacting them where they need it.

Like, with the set up above playing a 8 Wis or cha wizard would absolutely tank your build. Gone are foolish Wizards or Wizards bad at social situations.

It's already hard to make Monks all that different from eachother attribute wise. All monks dump str/int/cha. It'd be nice to be able to play a big strong monk or a really foolish monk without tanking their AC and saves. Though this latter one could be solved by a unarmed barbarian or something.

[Kane0]

I'll take a hard pass on making the game more MAD. I kind of prefer my characters to be able to be mechanically different from eachother without it negatively impacting them where they need it.

Like, with the set up above playing a 8 Wis or cha wizard would absolutely tank your build. Gone are foolish Wizards or Wizards bad at social situations.

It's already hard to make Monks all that different from eachother attribute wise. All monks dump str/int/cha. It'd be nice to be able to play a big strong monk or a really foolish monk without tanking their AC and saves. Though this latter one could be solved by a unarmed barbarian or something.

It largely comes down to implementation, the idea being you could have multiple different evoker wizards that know a big variety of spells or can spam what they know more often or hit much harder with what they do know. Much like how EK fighters can dump INT and still have effective spells that dont rely on Spell DC (magic missile, shield), you have casters that drop one thing to focus on another rather than having the one stat governs spellcasting, and different casters would emphasise different stats based on build, spell list, etc.
It'd also basically be a nerf unless you get more stat points to spread around, but thats numbers that can be tweaked to suit

[Witty Username]

Big magic should have a cost to it, the magic system in D&D is so badly flawed in that regard, powerful magic safely cast with no cost till you run out slots for it.

Eh, I am more of the mind that abilities that are inherently risky or costly to use tend to be poor for gameplay.

If casting fireball costs an arm and a leg (literally in this case), then it amounts to no one playing mages because no one wants their character to either have no abilities, or be replaced by a new one every session.

It doesn't make magic more interesting, it just makes magic frustrating.

[Goobahfish]

I like druids. I think they're neat.

That is all.