OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Laurentio III]

In just landed on me a doubt.
The Linear Guild could create gates. Gates can be moved.
Why didn't they move them in places less accessible?
Couldn't, didn't think about, or they just wanted to split the party?

[OvisCaedo]

I'm pretty sure they explicitly said that the gates CAN'T be moved. They're just built on top of holes in spacetime.

Though Redcloak and Xykon's supreme level epic ritual seeks to change that

[Kish]

If you mean the Order of the Scribble, they could only create Gates over the rifts, where they were; they didn't have the power to choose to have the five rifts be right next to each other in Azure City, even if they'd been getting along perfectly.

[Laurentio III]

I'm pretty sure they explicitly said that the gates CAN'T be moved. They're just built on top of holes in spacetime.

Though Redcloak and Xykon's supreme level epic ritual seeks to change that

So, essentially the question is: why didn't they wrote a similar ritual? "Didn't thought about" seems possible. I was just wondering if there was some other reason.

Now that I think, "Not willing to upset the killing abomination" could be a safe bet.

[OvisCaedo]

Looking at the exact dialogue, I guess Hinjo said moving the gate would RISK opening it. But Xykon and Redcloak's plan to weaponize it would instead rely explicitly on it breaking open to kill everything around the new destination.

[HalfTangible]

The Giant has a post somewhere that outlines the overall idea behind The Plan iirc

Basically, TDO sends the rift to one of the planes, the snarl breaks out and devours the plane. It's a one shot dealio, like a nuke.

[Kish]

So, essentially the question is: why didn't they wrote a similar ritual? "Didn't thought about" seems possible. I was just wondering if there was some other reason.

Now that I think, "Not willing to upset the killing abomination" could be a safe bet.

Looking at the exact dialogue, I guess Hinjo said moving the gate would RISK opening it. But Xykon and Redcloak's plan to weaponize it would instead rely explicitly on it breaking open to kill everything around the new destination.

Yes, this. They didn't write a similar ritual because the Dark One's ritual is probably the worst idea since the original gods decided there was nothing to lose by simply yanking threads back and forth whenever they disagreed.

[Wintermoot]

Part of the issue is different definitions for things like "rift" and "gate" and so on, used by different people for different objects.

There are several "rifts". Literally tears in the fabric of reality connecting the Prime Material Plane to the non-dimensional space the Snarl is trapped in. "The Prison", I'll call that non-dimensional space.

The "gates" are actual things built by the Order of the Scribble on TOP of the rifts to seal them and keep them from growing larger.

Redcloaks ritual has been stated as moving "the gates", but that doesn't make sense to me. Moving "the rifts" makes sense.

So the way I came to think of it is that the ritual interacts with the magical power of the "gates" and basically changes them from being doors to being tunnels, redirecting anything coming out of "the rifts" to emerge somewhere else other than the Prime Material Plane.

So the ritual, in my head canon, interacts with "the gates" by changing them from a door into as sort of tunnel, redirecting anything emerging from "the rift" to some other location.

[Peelee]

So, essentially the question is: why didn't they wrote a similar ritual? "Didn't thought about" seems possible. I was just wondering if there was some other reason.

Now that I think, "Not willing to upset the killing abomination" could be a safe bet.

The original ritual was conceived of by a god (who wasn't even a caster in life and as such must have been able to do so due to godly power). As such, i would imagine formulating such a ritual is probably quite difficult, even if they could think of it.

Also, even if they thought of it and could have created their own ritual...

The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

Hopefully, that clears the issue up.

[gbaji]

That Y is not a “because.” You have formulated it this way to reassert (not prove) your thesis.

I formulated it that way to illustrate that your inital logic of "Do X because of Y' fails for any case where X="Kill Xykon" and Y="anything other than 'fulfill the blood oath'".

The "Y" has to be something that the Order is "trying to achieve" (ie: the quest).

Destroy Xykon because he is trying to get to the last Gate.

If you are going to use logical substitution of words for X and Y, you must be precise with your word use.

Is Y "Xykon trying to get to the last gate". No. It's not. The quest isn't "prevent Xykon from getting to the last gate". It's "prevent the world from being destroyed" (and a bonus quest: "seal the rifts so the world never needs to be destroyed").

Does Xykon arriving at the final gate destroy the world? No. It does not. Again. Be precise with the language here. Xykon merely arriving at the final gate only risks the goal Y (prevent the world from being destroyed) if he decides to destroy the gate in a fit of boredom. That's not his stated objective.

We could just as easily substitute your argument of "Destroy Xykon because he's trying to get to the last gate" with "Destroy Xykon because he's trying to eat a ham sandwich". It is just as valid. It's not enough to just say "we have to stop him from doing <whatever>". You must also show that doing <whatever> is what actually causes the problem we are trying to solve/prevent.

And that's just not true here. Not anymore anyway.

Seal up the rifts forever because the Snarl threatens the world (as do the gods).

If the Snarl no longer threatened the world (maybe because the Snarl built a backup planet in its chaotic center?) sealing up the rifts would not be necessary. It is not a goal unto itself.

Yeah. Which is why I have repeatedly stated the actual goal as "prevent the world from being destroyed". Whether that destruction comes at the hand of the snarl or the gods doesn't matter here, except when considering what may trigger that destruction.

Redcloak can’t do the ritual without Xykon.

Wrong. Redcloak can't do the ritual without a sufficiently high level arcane caster. It does not have to be Xykon. Xykon is there only because he's the only high enough spell caster Redcloak could find willing to go along with it. But we could presume that if Xykon were destroyed, but Redcloak survived, that eventually Redcloak (or even some future crimson mantle wearer if he's killed) will find another arcane caster to complete the ritual.

This is actually doubly problematic given that gobotopia exists now, seems to be stable, and may very well enable the goblins to actually start studying serious amounts of arcane magic. Doubly so if TDO commands it or something. They have resources, access to a trade network for materials, presumably a boatload of lore and spell books from all the magic shops hastily abandoned during the war, etc. Everything they need to start building an arcane magic infrastructure to support them and build towards this goal.

Xykon without Redcloak is a powerful threat, but not a "world is destroyed" threat. As long as the gates exist, and the crimson mantle exists, the ritual and "the plan" exist. That's the threat.

And we have long since known that the gods intend to destroy the world long before the pair of them even get a chance to cast their ritual spell. At this point it’s a distinction without much meaning.

Ok. Even if we assume this is true (this condition/action correlation has yet to be explicitly stated by any of the gods btw), that means that "starting the ritual" is the threat. That requires both Redcloak and any high level arcane caster (which just happens to be Xykon at the moment). Why focus on "destroying Xykon" as the "must do" act to stop this threat? He's only doing half the ritual, and he has no ability to perform the ritual without Redcloak. That is not true in the other direction though.

You're too caught up in the specific circumstances of the moment and not looking at the whole picture here.

Every scenario that actually "prevents the world from being destroyed" requires stopping Redcloak in some way (either killing him, or conviincing him to help seal the rifts). And in every one of those scenarios, Xykon being killed or not is utterly irrelevant to the result of"world is not destroyed". If you kill Redcloak, Xykon can't start, much less complete the ritual. Ever. World is saved. If you turn Redcloak, Xykon can't start or complete the ritual. Ever. World is saved.

Again. The same is not true in reverse. Take Xykon away but leave Redcloak still around and wanting to continue the plan, then all you've done is buy some time.

Here is a hypothetical: suppose Roy kills Xykon and destroys the phylactery. Redcloak would not be turned and had to be killed. Suddenly, Dorukan and Lirian pop out of Xykon’s soul gem, followed by the reappearance of the ghost of Soon, and they agree to re-seal the Gates, only better this time. The gods agree to do something blah blah blah to stop the Snarl. Would that be a satisfying ending?

No. Members of the original Scribblers are not going to pop up and save the day for the heroes. The Order of the Stick will solve the problem.

Or this: Redcloak turns, Xykon is killed, and Redcloak makes some spell to move the rifts to the astral fortress where no one can get at them again. Or Redcloak appeals to the Dark One to do that for us. Would that satisfy?

Huh? First off, that makes no sense at all. If Redcloak and/or TDO had the ability to move the rifts to the astral plane without Xykon, Xykon wouldn't even be in the story. That's literally his only use (he's a high level arcane caster, and they need that for the ritual). Also, that doesn't really solve the problem long term at all. Just moves it elsewhere (and arguably a much worse elsewhere).

In my view, either ending would be perfectly fine, even though it is not the heroes doing the heavy lifting of re-sealing the rifts. Because sealing the rifts is not personal. Roy has a personal and emotional attachment to the Xykon plot that he doesn’t have with the generic save-the-world plot. It’s bound up in Roy’s personality and his family and his sense of self-worth and his journey to the afterlife and his choice to be a fighter and his big green sword and his special lich-killing feat and his name. Roy’s journey would be complete even if someone else showed up and sealed the rifts, but not fully realized if someone else turned up to beat Xykon. The rifts are a loose end that has to be tied up, but not by Roy personally. We could see the plan in place to seal said rifts, and fade to black. We don’t even need to see it happen, if we are reasonably assured it would.

Roy is not the Order. Roy's personal family quest is not the Order's quest. Will Roy defeat Xykon? Absolutely. Does that resolve the Order's quest? Absolutely not.

My personal headcannon (and total wild speculation)? TE reaches the gate and begins the ritual with the Order hot on their heels. Grand melee breaks out. Roy is fighting Xykon. Durkon is trying to talk Redcloak down while fighting. O'Chul is trying to talk down the MitD. Oona is making with the wisecrackies. Greyview is being Greyview. Somewhere in the midst of this, Xykon realizes (overhears?) Redcloaks plan, and implements his own double cross (perhaps siccing MitD on him, which requires O'Chul stopping him and or convincing him he's his own person whatever). Fight continues, Redcloak realizes that he can't complete the ritual now, so is more wiling to stand down now that Xykon is trying to kill him and helps the Order (to some degree anyway). Xykon decides to go "scorched earth" and attacks the gate, damaging it and making things more desperate. Roy finally defeates him, only for Xykon to mock him with "I'll be back. My philactery is hidden far away where you can't find me, behind a zillion defenses <insert muhahaha here>". He dies. Redcloak just kinda goes "Er... Actually I swapped the philactery, so let's make a deal here". But the Gate is damaged, and requires some magical shoring up or something. V steps up and... the IFCC interposes right at the critial moment. They proceed to villian splain about their plans, and how they need the gods to destroy world for <whatever the plan is> to work, blah, blah, blah. Gate starts building up to critical. Order is trying everything to stop it, and then... Krakaboom! OMG! Last gate is gone. Snarl starts reaching out. Gods start their "10 minutes to destroying the world countdown". In the midst of this, the snarl reaches out and engulfs the entire Order plus Redcloak. All is lost!

Time stops. Then starts again. They find themselves on a world. It must be the world within the rift that Blackwing saw. There's some kind of roiling muticolored surface all around them high above the atmosphere, but they're fine where they are. After a while, a divine looking being/thing/whatever shows up. It says it's an avatar/servant of the "prime deity" (or whatever). Turns out that in the billions of years this process has been going in, the snarl has become sentient, and over time, even benevolent. It's learned from the bits and snaches of the prime material plane it's absorbed over time and has decided to create something of its own, complete with sentient people, and everything else a healthy world would need. It's not really "evil", but merely pained by the constant interaction between its reality and the one on the "other side" that it can only dimly percieve. Every time it tries to reach out and explore that "outside", it falls apart and then disappears (gods destroying the world). It would love a long term solution to this. The Order explains about god colors, and whatnot, and the rifts. Turns out the rifts are just as annoyiing to the snarl and its reality as it is to the gods and their creation, so a plan is concocted. The snarl will use its four colors to seal off the "border" between its realm and the prime material plane outside, as long as they promise to do the same (so neither can ever intrude on the other again). This will require that the "worlds" on both side become permanent and not things the gods just destroy and rebuild every once in a while though, which, of course, is just fine for the Order. Redcloak agrees to use TDOs power to do this, and even suggests TDO may be convinced to be more open with the other deities in the future (but with some concessions, which now the gods will have to somewhat make since they are "stuck" with this world). Perhaps some process in this binding process will essentially prevent any additional snarl issues, since "the world" is now "locked in" or something. And since there is equal power and colors on each "side" things will be stable from now on. <details>

Deal is made. The snarl offers to open up a portal and let them out, cautioning them that once they leave, no one can ever return. The magic it's about to use can't be undone, and once matched on the other side, both worlds will be eternally separated from eachother. The Order prepares to leave, but then Belkar stops. He realizes that since this world doesn't actually have an astral plane (can't, right?), or outer planes (also can't, it's just made up of the same creative energy that makes up the prime material plane in the "real world") that concepts like alignment don't exist here. It's just a world, with no way to measure people this way. He sees this as an opportunity to "start over" and be judged by the person he now is instead of his entire life's history. There's nothing for him back home, and a whole new world here, so he stays, thereby fulfiling the Oracles prophesies about him. They say their goodbyes, and the Order returns.

Back in the real world, no time has passed. The Gods are still gearing up to destry the world. Durkon makes a desperate plea to them to stop, which comes in just in time. The gods decide to do as the snarl suggests and permanently bind this world using 4 colors, as long as they can get TDO on board (and at least in the short term Redcloak will help get things going, eh... details). Recloak also hands over the philactery which is destroyed (by Roy, using the Greenhilt sword of course). The IFCC, now that the world isn't actually being destroyed, has revealed their plan (whatever it is) and have failed, so they're due for some good old fasioned deity level thumping from their respective deities. Then we have some resolution stuff, showing the Order returning home. Eugene moving on. Blah blah blah whatever. Maybe the remaining members decide to start off to enact Elans "plan" to fight Targuin as their next quest. Maybe not. Doesn't matter. But they all resolve to make this world a better place, because it's the only world the have.

The End.

Now imagine the two above scenarios, but instead Xykon gets away. Roy’s journey with his father issues is unresolved. Still satisfying?

No. I've already stated that a "satisfying ending" will result in Xykon's destruction. But not because that's the actual goal of the Orders "quest" at this point, but because it's what Roy set out to do initially, and it would be a massive dangling string to leave it undone. Again though, it's not necessary to the "quest", but it will be done, because it's a story, and it would suck if Xykon gets away.

Luke’s journey would not be complete if someone else joined the Rebellion, became an Jedi, and blew up the Death Star. He would still be restless and unsatisfied and pining after his absent father. Indy’s journey would not be complete if someone else found the Grail as a way to make amends with his father. Indy would still bear a grudge over his father’s lifelong obsessions. Frodo’s journey would not be complete if someone else destroyed the Ring — which is exactly what did happen, which is one reason that it is satisfying that Frodo never recovered. Had Frodo just shrugged and tossed the One Ring into the Cracks of Doom, he wouldn’t have earned the melancholy ending he got.

Huh? In those cases, it would be someone else's story then. If Luke just stayed on the farm isntead, and someone else did all that stuff, then it would be the story of "Joe the Jedi" or whatever, and we wouldn't know of Luke except as some minor character who found some droids and then handed them off to his friend Joe to deal with, right? That's not about "complete stories". It's possible for individual characters in a story to have their own motivations and objectives, but not have those actually be core or even central to the "main plot". Han Solo needed to pay off his debts, right? Thats was a plot point in the series, and had some significant effects along the way, but it was at no point the "main objective". It was a side-plot that served as an additional obstacle to the heroes.

I mean, sure. We could choose to declare Han the main character, and all the stuff involving fighting with the Rebellion against the Empire is just his own personal set of obstacles to overcome along the "main plot" of getting out of debt and removing the death mark placed on him, right? But that would be silly. And it's just as silly to conclude that Roy's desire to destroy Xykon is also the "main plot", and that this whole business with the gates, and preventing the world from being destroyed is just a bunch of side stuff he has to deal with along the way. Right?

Roy's blood oath was the means to get the characters into the story. It was the "hook". It explains why the Order, and not some other random group of adventures, are the ones dealing with the gates and the snarl and everything else. That's it. Yes. Along the way, it will be resolved (just as Han's whole Jabba situation was in SW), but it is by no means the "main plot", and "destroying Xykon" isn't the "main objective. He's just one obstacle in the way of achieving that objective.

So the ritual, in my head canon, interacts with "the gates" by changing them from a door into as sort of tunnel, redirecting anything emerging from "the rift" to some other location.

That's kinda how I head cannon it as well. There's the actual rift, but that's a tear in dimensional space. It only has a "size" and "location" based on how we percieve it interacting with our own dimension. The seal is the spell that was cast that blocks that opening. The gate is basically a doorway with a lock that holds that in place. Then there's some sort of physical component that holds everything in one spot on this "side" I guess (and on which Durokon placed his glyphs on his gate, the gemstone for the Sappire guard, the quartz stuff in Girard's gate, etc). Breaking the physical "frame" destabilizes the gate within, causing it to unravel, which will ultimately destroy the seal and expose the rift to the world. The ritual basically redirects the opening to "somewhere else". Call that "the gate", since that's the actual doorway on our side. At which point it can be opened and the snarl released wherever it happens to be. It's unclear what exactly happens if this is done, but probably "really bad". It's also unclear if that would also move whatever the physical component thing is present or not (and I don't think we'll ever know because I doubt the story will get to this point). Ultimately, that's somewhat irrelevant since if the ritual completes, TDO can move the opening to wherever he wants. It's also unclear if the very act of moving it causes the whole thing to unravel and the rfit to connect to that locaion, or if it can be placed there, held as a threat, and opened or moved later.

In any case, it does seem clear that once actually opened on an outer plane, things will get very bad very quickly. The snarl would arguably be vastly more powerful and dangerous interacting there, since the outer planes are even less "real" than the prime material plane (just like the gods technically are less resistant to the snarl as well). So... very very bad. Again though, this is a condition to avoid "at all costs", so I don't think the ritual will ever be completed in the course of the story. So it's really irrelevant how these details actually work. Heck. If it comes to that, as much as they've promised Serini otherwise, if there is actually only a choice between "destroy the gate" and "let the ritual complete", I think "destroy the gate" would be the correct choice. It would suck, and set the universe back, but the gods could still create a new world later and try again. It's undetermined if releasing the snarl in an outer plane might cause damage to the universe that is unrepairable. So... bad.

[Jasdoif]

The Giant has a post somewhere that outlines the overall idea behind The Plan iirc

Basically, TDO sends the rift to one of the planes, the snarl breaks out and devours the plane. It's a one shot dealio, like a nuke.

You do recall correctly.

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

[KorvinStarmast]

My personal headcannon (and total wild speculation)? .

That was an interesting journey down speculation boulevard, and I enjoyed reading it. I particularly liked how you folded Belkar's disposition into it.
But I think you undersold the IFCC's role a bit.

[gbaji]

That was an interesting journey down speculation boulevard, and I enjoyed reading it. I particularly liked how you folded Belkar's disposition into it.
But I think you undersold the IFCC's role a bit.

Yeah. There just isn't enough info about the IFCC and their plan to put it in. But the broad outline can fit them being more involved in things than that. Just don't know how. I actually had Xykon deciding to destroy the gate out of a fit of "If I can't have it, no one else can", but he could just as easily not do that (cause really, why would he? He kinda needs the world to continue existing too). Said gate destruction could be the IFCC's doing (probable actually, given "world destroyed" seems to be about the only thing we know for sure they want), but again, I'm not sure on the details of "how". Or, of course, it could just be a random accident during the fight (Elan is there, afterall). Or there could be any of a number of other steps involved.

But I do happen to like the idea of the last gate actually being destroyed at some point, then the Order getting sucked into the world in the rifts, finding out that "all is not what we thought it was", and then coming up with a resolution from there. IMO, that ties all of the threads together, brings the world in the rift into it, gives us more info on the nature of the snarl, provides a more satisfying/permanent "world saved" outcome than just the current "redcloak uses a 9th level spell slot to close the current rifts" solution does, and provides an alternative "ending" for Belkar as well.

A side possiblity is that Belkar "sacrifices" himself to the snarl to cover everyone else's escape and he alone makes the deal with the snarl to seal things from that side as well. Fits better into the "OMG! It killed Belkar!" angle, but the absence of folks on the "outside" knowing this is happening makes this problematic. But I could totally see another trippy "belkar speaks with the snarl in callback to his delerium conversation with Shojo" bit pulling this off pretty well, but perhaps with him actually being "undone" (cause maybe matter from one world just can't pass to the other), but the snarl agreeing to "remake" him in his new/better self image on his own world. Who knows. Lots of different possiblities here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Lots of different possiblities here.

Yep. Rich has left himself lots of room to work. Nice technique.

[lio45]

Let's flip this, then, since all the 'nuh-uh' posts have Xykon dying first, and proceed with, 'Then what?'

What if Redcloak is turned, the rifts are all sealed, and goblins have recognition from all three pantheons as equal stakeholders in the world social order.

Would the story be resolved, even if Xykon is not destroyed?

I'll echo what others said: Yes. The story would be resolved.

If Redcloak joins the heroes with TDO's fourth quiddity color, and they all seal the gates, while banishing Xykon out-of-sight/out-of-mind to the Western Continent where the readers assume he'll get to play local dictator and have his fun as a Tarquin 2.0 while the world is saved and stable, and the last few panels of the story are a pissed-off Eugene ranting alone out loud about how it'll take forever until Julia is high level enough to even have a credible shot at defeating the ruler of Xykonaria, it's a perfectly acceptable and decently satisfying story.

[brian 333]

I'll echo what others said: Yes. The story would be resolved.

If Redcloak joins the heroes with TDO's fourth quiddity color, and they all seal the gates, while banishing Xykon out-of-sight/out-of-mind to the Western Continent where the readers assume he'll get to play local dictator and have his fun as a Tarquin 2.0 while the world is saved and stable, and the last few panels of the story are a pissed-off Eugene ranting alone out loud about how it'll take forever until Julia is high level enough to even have a credible shot at defeating the ruler of Xykonaria, it's a perfectly acceptable and decently satisfying story.

I disagree, but you know that and you know why.

Here is a problem: so long as Xykon is undead, Roy's quest is not over. Once Xykon is dead, convincing Redcloak he has better, and longer lasting, leverage is easy.

Consider: TDO wants a nuke. It's a one-shot, and using it makes him a target for every surviving god. But adding his quiddity to the seal? Now he has given every god who wants the world to last a vested interest in keeping him alive. This is leverage that can be reused indefinitely. It is better than The Plan.

But, so long as Xylon is alive, Redcloak won't even consider abandoning The Plan.

However, without Xykon the immediate danger to the gate is over. Redcloak may want to get another arcanist and go through with the ritual, but that's years in the future. The four destroyed gates can be rebuilt in the meantime, and rebuilt with the means to prevent teleportation. This can be added to Kraggor's gate as well. Now TDO has no nuke and no leverage, and if the Azure City goblins do not cooperate, he has no city. In other words, once Xykon has been destroyed, Redcloak has two choices: cooperate or fail.

Once Xykon is dead, the rest of the problems solve themselves.

All of these obstacles that some posters confuse with the plot can be resolved like the final scene of 'The Other Woman.'

"Xykon discovered that he was right all along. The Big Fire Below sucks just as much as he thought it would. At least he has Lee, Nero, and Cedrick for company."
"Roy's genassi son Eric is developing some shocking abilities. His best friend has kindly offered a pair of gloves which help most of the time."
"Elan and Haley are having the adventure of their lives while enjoying the world's longest engagement."
"The High Priest of Thor resolved the outrage of his fellow priests by explaining that co-parenting with a priest of Loki is a battle that will be waged for a lifetime."
"Kudzu and Mr.Scruffy are inseparable."
"Vaarsuvius stops by Belkar's monument to place flowers from time to time, but spends a lot of time and energy as teacher and principal of an elementary school for aspiring mages. The Ethics of Magic is a required class."
"Redcloak and the Temple's Vestal Virgin both changed their names. Mr. and Mrs. Richard Wright are expecting twins any day now."

[gbaji]

Here is a problem: so long as Xykon is undead, Roy's quest is not over. Once Xykon is dead, convincing Redcloak he has better, and longer lasting, leverage is easy.

Consider: TDO wants a nuke. It's a one-shot, and using it makes him a target for every surviving god. But adding his quiddity to the seal? Now he has given every god who wants the world to last a vested interest in keeping him alive. This is leverage that can be reused indefinitely. It is better than The Plan.

But, so long as Xylon is alive, Redcloak won't even consider abandoning The Plan.

That's not entirely accurate (well, "complete" really). As long as Redcloak believes that he can get a high level arcane caster to help him complete the ritual, then he wont consider abandoning the plan.

That arcane caster at the moment is Xykon. Either Xykon being destroyed *or* Xykon betraying Redcloak removes that condition equally. Xykon need not actually be destroyed for "the plan" to be just as much delayed and for Redcloak to consider abandoning the plan in favor of the "seal the rifts" plan instead.

However, without Xykon the immediate danger to the gate is over. Redcloak may want to get another arcanist and go through with the ritual, but that's years in the future. The four destroyed gates can be rebuilt in the meantime, and rebuilt with the means to prevent teleportation. This can be added to Kraggor's gate as well. Now TDO has no nuke and no leverage, and if the Azure City goblins do not cooperate, he has no city. In other words, once Xykon has been destroyed, Redcloak has two choices: cooperate or fail.

Sure. But let's flip it around. Redcloak dead (and the mantle destroyed or captured) also means the immediate danger to the gate is over too, right? But with none of the other lingering risks either. Other gates can similarily be rebuilt. TDO has no nuke and no leverage here either. TDO is under even more pressure to go along with the "seal the rifts with my quiddity" plan than in your scenario since he's lost his high priest and lost his mantle.

The plan can continue without Xykon. It can't continue if Redcloak is killed and the mantle lost. I'm not sure why folks have a hard time seeing this. Let me be clear. I don't actually think the story is going to go in this direction anyway. But if we're purely asking the question "which single TE member's death most decreases the risk of the world ending", the answer is clearly "Redcloak".

Once Xykon is dead, the rest of the problems solve themselves.

Nope. Only the blood oath is resolved with that. All the other problems still remain.

The absolute lynchpin to "resolving the threat to the gates/world" is Redcloak (well, the mantle actually). As long as he continues to pursue the plan, that threat exists and the "problem" has not been solved. Redcloak must either be killed or convinced to abandon the plan. If he's killed, then Xykon's status (undead or destroyed) is irrelevant (except with regards to the blood oath). If Redcloak is not killed, then "Xykon destroyed" is one way, but not the only way, to convince him to abandon the plan. At the end of the day, every path to resolving the threat of the gates involves Redcloak. Only one involves Xykon, and only in that his destruction may convince Redcloak to abandon the plan (but it might not!), which still leaves us right back to "it's all about Redcloak".

I get it. Xykon's the big bad. So he must be the most important target. But that's not really true. It's never really been true. And we've known that since Redcloak killed Tsukiko and we (the audience) learned what the ritual actually does.

[BloodSquirrel]

Sure. But let's flip it around. Redcloak dead (and the mantle destroyed or captured) also means the immediate danger to the gate is over too, right? But with none of the other lingering risks either. Other gates can similarily be rebuilt. TDO has no nuke and no leverage here either. TDO is under even more pressure to go along with the "seal the rifts with my quiddity" plan than in your scenario since he's lost his high priest and lost his mantle.

The plan can continue without Xykon. It can't continue if Redcloak is killed and the mantle lost. I'm not sure why folks have a hard time seeing this. Let me be clear. I don't actually think the story is going to go in this direction anyway. But if we're purely asking the question "which single TE member's death most decreases the risk of the world ending", the answer is clearly "Redcloak".

I get it. Xykon's the big bad. So he must be the most important target. But that's not really true. It's never really been true. And we've known that since Redcloak killed Tsukiko and we (the audience) learned what the ritual actually does.

I'd just like to add that, of the two, Redcloak is the one who has expressed more interest in out-and-out destroying the world as a second option to completing the ritual. If Xykon is destroyed and Redcloak (somewhat reasonably) decides that by the time he finds another high-level caster his opportunity will be lost (his ability to hold the gate against the forces against him without Xykon are questionable, and he may be forced to recognize the fact that the gods will destroy the world if he tries to take the gate again) he may just decide to blow up the world now because it's better to have a new world built with the Dark One's input that continue with the status quo. This belief is questionable on several levels, but Redcloak has explicitly expressed it.

Xykon is far more likely to shrug and move on with his unlife. He doesn't care about any of the greater reasons behind The Plan, and he's immortal and can find some other great evil scheme to spend his time with.

[brian 333]

That's not entirely accurate (well, "complete" really). As long as Redcloak believes that he can get a high level arcane caster to help him complete the ritual, then he wont consider abandoning the plan.

That arcane caster at the moment is Xykon. Either Xykon being destroyed *or* Xykon betraying Redcloak removes that condition equally. Xykon need not actually be destroyed for "the plan" to be just as much delayed and for Redcloak to consider abandoning the plan in favor of the "seal the rifts" plan instead.

This sets The Plan back by years, at least, because there are no other arcanists of epic level hanging out in Redcloak"s bag of holding. By the time Redcloak has one ready The Order could have already sealed the rifts and made the gates teleport-proof.

With Xykon dead, Redcloak's choices are either cooperate or lose. Period. Game over.

Sure. But let's flip it around. Redcloak dead (and the mantle destroyed or captured) also means the immediate danger to the gate is over too, right?

No, because Xykon has his Astral Fortress to which he can retreat and survive the end of the world. He still has a 'Give me the world or I destroy it' card to play. World domination is his game, and he does not need Redcloak for that. Redcloak needs Xykon, but for Xykon, Redcloak is an annoying convenience and nothing more.

But with none of the other lingering risks either. Other gates can similarily be rebuilt. TDO has no nuke and no leverage here either. TDO is under even more pressure to go along with the "seal the rifts with my quiddity" plan than in your scenario since he's lost his high priest and lost his mantle.

The plan can continue without Xykon. It can't continue if Redcloak is killed and the mantle lost. I'm not sure why folks have a hard time seeing this. Let me be clear. I don't actually think the story is going to go in this direction anyway. But if we're purely asking the question "which single TE member's death most decreases the risk of the world ending", the answer is clearly "Redcloak".

I'm having a hard time seeing this because I feel that too much emphasis is being put into Xykon's need for The Plan. He does not need it at all. Redcloak needs it, and so he needs an epic level arcanist like Xykon. These guys are not exactly popping out of the woodwork.

Xykon's plan is, 'Rule the world until that gets boring.' Actually, more accurately, 'Do whatever I want in the world with nobody telling me that I can't.'

He does not need The Plan to do this! He can simply hold the last gate hostage!

He does not need Redcloak at all. At this time Redcloak is convenient. But Xykon can extort The Gods without Redcloak.

Nope. Only the blood oath is resolved with that. All the other problems still remain.

The absolute lynchpin to "resolving the threat to the gates/world" is Redcloak (well, the mantle actually). As long as he continues to pursue the plan, that threat exists and the "problem" has not been solved. Redcloak must either be killed or convinced to abandon the plan. If he's killed, then Xykon's status (undead or destroyed) is irrelevant (except with regards to the blood oath). If Redcloak is not killed, then "Xykon destroyed" is one way, but not the only way, to convince him to abandon the plan. At the end of the day, every path to resolving the threat of the gates involves Redcloak. Only one involves Xykon, and only in that his destruction may convince Redcloak to abandon the plan (but it might not!), which still leaves us right back to "it's all about Redcloak".

I get it. Xykon's the big bad. So he must be the most important target. But that's not really true. It's never really been true. And we've known that since Redcloak killed Tsukiko and we (the audience) learned what the ritual actually does.

Here's the logical misstep:

Without Xykon, Redcloak has no leverage at all. The Plan has to start all over from scratch. By the time Redcloak gets another willing caster to epic level, the Good Guys will have had time to mitigate the dangers of The Plan. Now that the Good Guys know about The Plan, it is now or never. Failing to achieve The Plan now means there will never be a second chance.

Redcloak may as well die trying now, because this is literally his last chance.

With Xykon dead, Redcloak has only two choices: renegotiate or fail. There is no 'try again later' option because six weeks from Xykon's death The Order will be rebuilding the destroyed gates and setting new guards on them. These guards will render The Plan unworkable, because who wouldn't repair the gates and make them impervious to what threatened the first ones?

If, however, Redcloak renegotiates, he can get half the gods on his side, get everything he claims to want for the goblins, and create a situation where TDO becomes absolutely necessary to the survival of the world for as long as the world lasts. He replaces the one-shot nuclear suicide option with a situation granting TDO absolute veto power for the rest of this world's existence.

If he does not renegotiate after Xykon's destruction, he fails. The Plan is done. He has no leverage, and nothing to show for all the goblins brothers he has murdered along the way.

[Precure]

They don't need an epic caster, just someone in relatively higher levels.

[brian 333]

They don't need an epic caster, just someone in relatively higher levels.

Okay, but where is this Xykon-replacement? Has Redcloak been taking apps?

Megalomaniacal and bent on world domination at any cost? TDO Investments wants you!
*Que Xykon saying, "Evil is a growth industry."*

[Precure]

Okay, but where is this Xykon-replacement? Has Redcloak been taking apps?

Megalomaniacal and bent on world domination at any cost? TDO Investments wants you!
*Que Xykon saying, "Evil is a growth industry."*

He has the resources of a whole nation on command, he can simply hire someone.

[Ruck]

Xykon's plan is, 'Rule the world until that gets boring.' Actually, more accurately, 'Do whatever I want in the world with nobody telling me that I can't.'

He does not need The Plan to do this! He can simply hold the last gate hostage!

He does not need Redcloak at all. At this time Redcloak is convenient. But Xykon can extort The Gods without Redcloak.

How would that work? He can't move or manipulate the Gate. As best as I can tell, all he can do is threaten to destroy it, which would likely just lead to the gods unmaking the world as they've done so many times in the past.

[brian 333]

He has the resources of a whole nation on command, he can simply hire someone.

Okay, so, again, where is this hireling? Near epic level characters are few and far between, and usually difficult to recruit away from what they are already doing. This is why Redcloak recruited Xykon.

Spoiler

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Not because he was the best choice, but because he was the only choice. The reason Redcloak killed his brother was because there was no replacement for Xykon.

How would that work? He can't move or manipulate the Gate. As best as I can tell, all he can do is threaten to destroy it, which would likely just lead to the gods unmaking the world as they've done so many times in the past.

And Xykon is aware of all these times, which is why he thinks the current plan will work.

You and I know that The Plan won't work because the gods will pull the plug before the ritual can be completed. Xykon lacks this information, but wouldn't believe the Good gods would allow the world to be destroyed if Durkon told him that. He does not realize that they are one vote away from blowing it all up before he even finds the last gate.

[Fish]

A new sufficiently-high-level evil caster character isn’t going to fall out of the sky in the last act of a story in order to justify the “Redcloak was the main villain all along” paradigm. If there was any such plan to replace Xykon we would very likely already know who this guy is.

Nale? Dead. Zz’dtri? Dead. Tsukiko? Very dead. Samantha? Also dead. Tarquin’s caster buddies? Possible, but unlikely; we barely know them. Some form of possession for Vaarsuvius, forcing him to cooperate? Okay, that one I grant you: it could happen. Qarr? Doubtful, but can’t be ruled out.

As a D&D campaign: yes, the biggest XP reward is for stopping the Snarl, the main villain is Redcloak, and Xykon is a fungible resource; if sorcerer dies, slot in new evil arcane caster and proceed. But this is not a D&D campaign, as Rich has previously said. This is a story about Roy, who has personal motivations and a developed arc around his pursuit, not of just any old bog-standard sorcerer, but of Xykon specifically. Durkon has his arc that probably involves his wisdom and understanding re: convincing Redcloak, and tempering his devotion to Thor with an understanding of Thor’s culpability in the wrongs of the universe.

[Peelee]

Okay, so, again, where is this hireling? Near epic level characters are few and far between, and usually difficult to recruit away from what they are already doing. This is why Redcloak recruited Xykon.

Spoiler

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Not because he was the best choice, but because he was the only choice. The reason Redcloak killed his brother was because there was no replacement for Xykon.

And Xykon is aware of all these times, which is why he thinks the current plan will work.

You and I know that The Plan won't work because the gods will pull the plug before the ritual can be completed. Xykon lacks this information, but wouldn't believe the Good gods would allow the world to be destroyed if Durkon told him that. He does not realize that they are one vote away from blowing it all up before he even finds the last gate.

Like Ruck asked, how would Xykon's Gate-hostage attempt work?

[InvisibleBison]

Okay, so, again, where is this hireling? Near epic level characters are few and far between, and usually difficult to recruit away from what they are already doing. This is why Redcloak recruited Xykon.

I very much doubt the ritual requires a near-epic caster.

Spoiler

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Redcloak was at most 10th level during the assault on Lirian's Gate, since he wasn't able to cast heal, and yet thought he would be able to do the divine part of the ritual. I see no reason to think that the arcane caster would need to be any higher-level than the divine caster.

[Ruck]

I very much doubt the ritual requires a near-epic caster.

Spoiler

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Redcloak was at most 10th level during the assault on Lirian's Gate, since he wasn't able to cast heal, and yet thought he would be able to do the divine part of the ritual. I see no reason to think that the arcane caster would need to be any higher-level than the divine caster.

Redcloak has the Crimson Mantle, though.

We don't know how high-level the arcane caster needs to be for the ritual; I don't think Redcloak has ever gotten more specific than "high level." But high-level probably is not mid-level.

Like Ruck asked, how would Xykon's Gate-hostage attempt work?

Yeah, that didn't actually answer my question.

[Kish]

There is no way that either Xykon or Redcloak is going to be destroyed before very close indeed to the end of the comic.

(Which, even if Redcloak wasn't there, would still be leagues away from saying that comic is and has always been just about Roy Greenhilt's quest to kill Xykon, with everything else revealed doing nothing more than raise the stakes of that quest.)

[Jasdoif]

How would that work? He can't move or manipulate the Gate. As best as I can tell, all he can do is threaten to destroy it, which would likely just lead to the gods unmaking the world as they've done so many times in the past.

Interestingly enough, something of the sort came up in Another Gaming Comic's evil character campaign; the Lord of Hate sent the adventurers out to destroy all but one of the seals protecting the world from extraplanar invasion, with the stated intent of blackmailing the world with the threat of destroying the last seal...whether he was able to locate it or not. Though....

Spoiler: Another Gaming Comic

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...destroying the world was his plan all along: His base of operations hid the last seal, which he destroyed after all the others had been broken, knowing full well most adventurers like their world and wouldn't go along with him if they knew what his real goal was.

Though a stronger parallel could be made with Redcloak instead of Xykon. Redcloak sees an advantage in the world's end, whereas it'd just be a boredom breaker for Xykon.