OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

I find it amazing how reliant the above argument is upon what Serini said when we know that at the very least Serini is withholding information.

Well yes, because it is one of the very few pieces of really solid information we have about the effectiveness of her dungeon. It doesn't matter what else she might be withholding, unless she was lying when she said that her dungeon would only slow down a serious threat, then that is good information we can rely on.

Yes, Serini's design is intended to slow down a serious threat. Yes Serini's fallback plan was to assemble her old team.

There is no room between those things for something else to happen?

Yes, I already said I don't think she gave up. I just don't think she holds out much hope that her dungeon will stop Xykon.

What if Xykon's spell works and MitD eats Redcloak?

What if Xykon realizes the ritual won't work the way he wants it to and he kills Redcloak?

What if the Quinton annoys Xykon, Xykon attacks him, and the Quinton kills Xykon?

Yes, it's not impossible that something will happen. Who knows, maybe monster hollow is on top of a volcano, which might erupt and kill Xykon. I agree that delay is marginally better than simply allowing him the gate, just in case something happens. Just like the delay at Dorukan's date meant that the Order showed up.

[halfeye]

Its just as easy as editing a post.

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.

[Ruck]

Delay is a very useful tactic, especially when defending. It makes people do stupid things they otherwise would not have done, and it gives time for unexpected circumstances to arise.

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value.

[Precure]

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation, so I had to write "accidental double posting" anytime I had to delete a post.

[Peelee]

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.

Clicking a box and clicking delete, as opposed to clicking a text field, typing, and then clicking submit.

You're right, its not quite identical. Its also usually easier.

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation

That's news to me.

[halfeye]

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation, so I had to write "accidental double posting" anytime I had to delete a post.

It can be seen as rude to delete a post someone has replied to, but IMHO that shouldn't apply to a simple accidental double posting.

[brian 333]

I learned something today. I shall have to forget something else to make room in my RAM.

[gbaji]

For example, some posters speculated that there was a means of determining which characters had gotten to the end of each dungeon. Having no evidence of that I hypothesized a mechanic where such would not be necessary. Evidence was then shown in comic that such a means did exist, and my speculation was proven wrong.

Yup. IIRC, there was initially the "some kind of magic marks" theory, and you proposed the idea that the lights at the end of each dungoen was some form of trigger instead. Either was reasonably plausible. I actually do think the "magic marks" bit does open up some additional problems, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they will only do so if they are relevant to the story Rich is telling. Which means.... Maybe?

Yes, I already said I don't think she gave up. I just don't think she holds out much hope that her dungeon will stop Xykon.

Sure. But I think several posters are of the opinion that the dungeon doesn't necessarily have to stop Xykon. Just delaying TE has value, since it opens the possbility that "something else" could happen. Even if it's a sliim hope, it's better than no hope at all.

And I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and declare that this is exactly what did happen. Maybe not in a form that Serini would like (the Order showing up). But that's still "something".

I learned something today. I shall have to forget something else to make room in my RAM.

Feels like that's how it works sometimes, doesn't it?

[Liquor Box]

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value.

Not sure, if this is directed at me. But to be clear I am not saying delay is pointless. It keeps the door open for the slim chance that some circumstance may intervene. I just think the value is low compared to something that has a chance of actually destroying him.

Sure. But I think several posters are of the opinion that the dungeon doesn't necessarily have to stop Xykon. Just delaying TE has value, since it opens the possbility that "something else" could happen. Even if it's a sliim hope, it's better than no hope at all.

And I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and declare that this is exactly what did happen. Maybe not in a form that Serini would like (the Order showing up). But that's still "something".[/QUOTE]

Agree with both of those. Although the something that did happen was undermined somewhat by Serini trying to prevent it. It's also what happened at Dorukan's.

[KorvinStarmast]

Whatever we call the fiends in this connection, since their deal can be described as a fixed-term lease with an occupancy date yet to be determined, we can confidently award Vaarsuvius the title of Lessor of Two Evils (and formerly of three).

*golf clap*

Point of order, she lamented the encroaching end of existence (i read it as all of existence, not just hers) when Team Evil and the paladins were there and the Order was imminent - literally every group that destroyed all the other Gates. I hardly think such lamentation is out of hand, considering (and, i should note, she wasn't lamenting the world being ruled by an insane lich, she was lamenting the end of existence).

Yep. Which fits hand in glove with her preference to exist, with Xykon as king of the world, rather than not existing - which she expressed to the Paladins.

I think i can agree with all of that.

Is that allowed?

I interpret it as, "Serini still hopes for something other than the end of the world."

Her view on this can be summarized as: existing, and having a {censored} rule the world is better than not existing.

Serini is smart enough to realize that there is no such thing as a defense that will hold out forever against a serious enough threat. Certainly none of the other Scribblers had such a defense. Agreeing with that premise is like agreeing that water is usually wet.

Not to mention Murphy's Laws of Combat, which suggest to never interrupt the enemy when they are making a mistake. (Might also be a SunTzuism).

Delay is a very useful tactic, especially when defending. It makes people do stupid things they otherwise would not have done, and it gives time for unexpected circumstances to arise.

Clausewitz noted that both defense and negotiation/parley are ways to use time to your advantage.

Epiphany! Serini has The Scribble bound by oath and can call upon them as Oathspirits like Eugene! She is waiting for Xykon's soul gem to break so she can get the band back together for one more benefit concert!

Neat idea, but this comic / story is about OotStick, not OotScribble. Plus, Soon has already faded off into the afterlife since Miko broke the gem. I don't think he's recallable.

Another negative point for Serini: her Dungeon isn't magically filled with monsters as we assumed before, and she had to find and bring more monsters to the dungeon to replace the ones Oona's folk hunted.

And for someone who is a monster advocate and friend, she's hiring monsters to come and be killed by Xykon/other intruders, and the bugbear tribe.

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value.

Aye, per my Clausewitzian point further up.

[Precure]

And for someone who is a monster advocate and friend, she's hiring monsters to come and be killed by Xykon/other intruders, and the bugbear tribe.

Oona: "Nice hunt we got, good meat to feed young."

Serini: "Dammit! Stop killing my friends/coworkers/Gate's defenders!" *cries*

[Doug Lampert]

Not to mention Murphy's Laws of Combat, which suggest to never interrupt the enemy when they are making a mistake. (Might also be a SunTzuism).

It's actually usually credited to Napoleon IME, although I find one source on the web that credits Sun Tzu, but doesn't list a chapter and I don't have a copy handy to check.

[pearl jam]

They could easily have both expressed the same idea without one being the influence of the other as well, of course.

[Wintermoot]

They could easily have both expressed the same idea without one being the influence of the other as well, of course.

"Or neither of them might have said anything of the sort, and its just the kind of thing that frequently gets misattributed to them."

-- George Washington Carver

[bertrc]

I am still surprised that Rich did not lampshade "Why didn't you make this a gauntlet and a shell game?! a la: You need to traverse all dungeons, getting those magic tattoos, plus you need to know there is this back door through the traps and reach my hidden, sealed-by-magic-rock, lair where you get the final tattoo."

Roy could have yelled this, after Sirini would reply "Well, uh . . . Obviously I would have . . ."; taken a beat (panel); then closed with: "Shut up!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

[Peelee]

I am still surprised that Rich did not lampshade "Why didn't you make this a gauntlet and a shell game?! a la: You need to traverse all dungeons, getting those magic tattoos, plus you need to know there is this back door through the traps and reach my hidden, sealed-by-magic-rock, lair where you get the final tattoo."

Roy could have yelled this, after Sirini would reply "Well, uh . . . Obviously I would have . . ."; taken a beat (panel); then closed with: "Shut up!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

Well, I would guess because its not a shell game at all, from what we know of it.

[bertrc]

Well, I would guess because its not a shell game at all, from what we know of it.

Well, yeah. That's why I am surprised. For some reason Sirini seems to have simply made this a guantlet and not a shell game, yet nobody in OotS et al has critiqued that oversight.

All of us see the obvious choice in making this dungeon both a gauntlet and a shell game. But Srini only made it a gauntlet. Once you beat your way through all the entrances, you are in the final dungeon. (Unless she is lying about all that)

Given the amount of time she must have had creating this, it is surprising that she never thought: "Gee, wouldn't it be great and effective if, after hitting every single dungeon, the mouth-breathers find a big fat nothin'. They won't even know they also have to find my hidden back door maintenance tunnels and get the final MacGuffin crystal to open the portal."

Roy is certainly smart enough to see such an option immediately. He could then have critiqued it (the lampshade) where the handwave is that Srini just didn't think of it (delivered as a joke and homage to the earlier strip)

Ah well, maybe Sirini is still lying and there is a larger shell game going on.

[Emberlily]

the fact that characters we know to be insightful and clever have seen the information we have and none of them have gone "hey wait a minute this is stupid you should do this thing that sounds obvious to some readers instead" is probably a sign that that isn't actually an obviously better solution within the story. maybe the resource demands of setting up both contingencies is well known enough that ppl don't immediately criticize the plan for not being impossibly expensively perfect, or maybe there's an understanding that simplicity helps prevent magically divining solutions, or maybe it's something as simple as serini doing a clearly obvious character-motivation-based action is important enough narratively that muddying it by having characters nitpick a 50-year-old decision in hindsight for the sake of nitpicking it would only lessen the story (and this is a story that runs on in-universe 'if it makes a better story that can be enough reason for something to happen')

(also as an aside I kno some ppl have a strong interest in taking serini down a peg all the time but like, I don't see any compelling reason to make her pull an early-story belkar just bc it'd be a callback to another halfling's behavior)

[Kish]

I think the answer is that she made a gauntlet and not a shell game because the gate guards she set up were to honor Kraagor's belief in the power of physical might, not Girard's belief in the power of deception.

As for why didn't Serini bring anything herself to the Gate's protections, she did: the understanding that she couldn't build a defense that would hold off a truly powerful enemy by herself, that the Order of the Scribble would need to work together to protect the Gates, just as each of the other Gates fell with only one member of the Order protecting them. People keep looking at her class and expecting "deception" to be her thing, but again--that was Girard. She was the one who prevented the Order from actually murdering each other.

[Emberlily]

serini's survivor's guilt & feelings of inadequacy compared to the rest of the party are both well-established and compelling, and the way those combined together for the longest time with Kraagor makes it very dramatically appropriate and satisfying that she's sublimating all of what she, serini, should be expected to bring to the table to make a fitting memorial for her lost comrade.

and she is bringing in her expertise and skillset (in obvious ways like traps, and in less blunt ways like the strokes of the setup), but the core and essence is her image of Kraagor that she's wrapping herself around. I like it! and by having the various members of the order see the plan, with their own perspectives and skillsets, and not immediately go "hey this plan sucks actually" is I think a deliberate choice to try to tell the audience that we shouldn't try to second guess her and undermine compelling character decisions for 100% Rational Foolproof Planning sorta fanservice setups bc what look to some readers as glaringly obvious alternatives might not be so glaringly obvious after all

edit addition: also, my apologies bertrc, but I think I mistook u for someone who had been involved in the conversation earlier when discussions around "is there a reason to make something hard by straightforward rather than in any way tricky" were abundant, so if this comes across as excessively forceful of an argument I apologise for that

[OvisCaedo]

"why not add one MORE layer of security" is also a pretty endless rabbit hole to go down for things a person obviously could have done. You can always have added one more hoop to jump through ad infinitum.

The gauntlet is already a pretty herculean task for someone to overcome, and Serini correctly identified herself that if a powerful enough force showed up that was REALLY determined to get through, no amount of defenses would ever hold out forever. Trying to nitpick extra layers that could have been is kind of silly, and I don't think there'd be any point in anyone in-comic trying to call her out on it. If there was a fundamental massive hole in the defense, that might be worth pointing out.

[bertrc]

(also as an aside I kno some ppl have a strong interest in taking serini down a peg all the time but like, I don't see any compelling reason to make her pull an early-story belkar just bc it'd be a callback to another halfling's behavior)

:-D I love Serini!!! Nah, I didn't mention this to bring her down a peg. I just felt that not using the backdoor maintenance hallways as part of the challenge, thus adding a requirement of rogue to the requirement of brawn, abandons a massive force multiplier ("force" meaning "Increase of difficulty") It is a big enough bump that I don't think it risks the rabbit hole.

(Also, I think a repeat of Belkar's reaction to V pointing out an obvious aspect in his very well thought out plan would be funny, particularly coming from a fellow halfling)

[brian 333]

She could have put one of the tattoo traps on the moon, on an obscure pebble in the middle of nowhere with no indication that it even exists anywhere.

She could be living in an obscure town with all of the tattoos, but she destroyed one of the traps preventing anyone from getting the last one.

She could have built an elaborate complex in the North Pole, but the real gate is in the South Pole and only protected by a mile-thick glacier.

She could have done lots of things differently.

Would it have made a better story?

Did you enjoy that summer-long campaign where the DM thought it was cute that there was no chalice at the end of the quest for the Holy Chalice Of Life?

[Emberlily]

:-D I love Serini!!! Nah, I didn't mention this to bring her down a peg. I just felt that not using the backdoor maintenance hallways as part of the challenge, thus adding a requirement of rogue to the requirement of brawn, abandons a massive force multiplier ("force" meaning "Increase of difficulty") It is a big enough bump that I don't think it risks the rabbit hole.

(Also, I think a repeat of Belkar's reaction to V pointing out an obvious aspect in his very well thought out plan would be funny, particularly coming from a fellow halfling)

fair enough! I'll assume it's obvious why my first guess to someone drawing a comparison with early-strip belkar would be that it wasn't meant as flattering, though

(also I'm a permanent member of messed up grandmas in fiction defense squad)

[KorvinStarmast]

People keep looking at her class and expecting "deception" to be her thing, but again--that was Girard. She was the one who prevented the Order from actually murdering each other.

That last bit seems to get lost in the noise now that we have met Serini "on screen" as it were.

She could have

Spoiler: good summary

Show

put one of the tattoo traps on the moon, on an obscure pebble in the middle of nowhere with no indication that it even exists anywhere.

She could be living in an obscure town with all of the tattoos, but she destroyed one of the traps preventing anyone from getting the last one.

She could have built an elaborate complex in the North Pole, but the real gate is in the South Pole and only protected by a mile-thick glacier.

She could have done lots of things differently.

Would it have made a better story?

Did you enjoy that summer-long campaign where the DM thought it was cute that there was no chalice at the end of the quest for the Holy Chalice Of Life?

And a nice closer.