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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Assuming all of this is correct (i do not), you can then proceed to my second point - namely, that the Order was unable to convince people when they didnt have any restrictions on how to describe the problem, so why do you think they would suddenly be able to when they are limited to 25 words? And if the high priests were willing to Send to their underlings to help, they would have done it already when Roy was at the Godsmoot.
    Well, let's see... the easiest answer is that they weren't asked to send help. This also includes the bit where they explain you can't Send into the Godsmoot (or out, I think, else we have bigger questions on our hands), which is kind of the response I would have expected, and we could get into relaying things via third parties (since we know there's a whole usher system that existed, and getting some replacements would be smart and sensible, especially given the news has already spread, so nobody needs to trust your Sending alone). I did gloss over that, and the negotiations in hierarchies, because they're problems with the process, not the initial decision. Kudos to Resileaf for familiarity with the story, though, solid catch.

    So, basically, your second point just isn't so. That's supported by the fact that they did get help, in the area they asked for help on, and also for this specific plan. In the form of a token that, explicitly, according to the High Priest, proved that they had said High Priest's blessing on their mission.

    Which worked, and got them stocked up on potions, oils, and Minrah. Granted, they then tried to cut her loose, despite having laid out the reasons why they shouldn't a hundred-odd comics and a few hours before then, but that's a different issue.

    And now, knowing that someone did, in fact, throw their direct support behind the Order, in-comic, with an eye towards ensuring their followers assisted the Order in their task, which led to the Order getting assistance in said task, including increased numbers... I think we can say this point's fundamentally flawed.

    But if we want to beat it into the ground a bit, circle back to that first link and notice that Roy didn't even know where he was going before the High Priest stepped in, and even that wasn't the ultimate destination. That's not exactly actionable information you can send a squad to, and you can't afford to swing 'round and park the airship to muster up at that point.

    Now, you know what you can fit into 25 words that you couldn't before? Coordinates and a short description of targets. And, as has been insisted (but, I guess I need to add to be polite, assumed), we're working on a scale of weeks, not a "race the subcommittee" situation where the only person in a position to help is the one related to your destination. You can even send out the airship for transport if you want. You sent it away anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your conclusion, even if it worked (which, again, i doubt - you yourself noted that for someone unfamiliar, they needed a name, race, class, and visual depiction. They were able to draw Durkon after adventuring with him for two years. Roy saw the high priests for a few minutes and only even got one of their names, IIRC), requires the characters to act contrary to how they have akready been established to act, and assumes that a minimal amount of explanation that the world is at stake will convince hoards of people deapite that this world has an "apocalypse of the week". Among the NPCs, nobody knows about how serious it is and the ones who do don't care. At least, not enough to get involved or others involved.
    To break this down a bit:

    One, I concluded, pretty explicitly, that you do not need those things. You need enough to specify an individual target. I checked, and I did literally write the words "the name isn't a requirement" there, so I guess I ought to disambiguate more. As the comic laid out, giving all that information was before the cleric asked if they had anything that made Durkon distinct from every other dwarf. The conclusion I'm drawing here is that the information there isn't helpful, not that a drawing is required, or else he'd ask for that first, not as a last-ditch attempt (with Celia explicitly pointing out she "sucks at drawing faces", and having one piece of chalk and a wall to work with, rather than actual art supplies).

    Two, the "apocalypse of the week" scenario. Making our way back to the Godsmoot comic there, we can notice that one, plenty of authority figures do know how serious it is. High Priests across the board, and any dwarf in range of the whole Council fiasco and/or Roy carrying the High Priest's rune. The Eugene Greenhilt School of Zerg Rushes might meet with serious approval in the target demographic, if it was aimed at a certain lich... but we also know there's at least one adventurer worth their salt who's willing to pitch in for dwarfkind and could well survive the experience. And so far, I've only got Hylga down for people who know, but don't care. Even the High Priests on the Yes side don't seem too comfy there.

    Three, and out of order for a reason, "acting contrary to how they've been established to act" can apply to anything, and isn't a defense for asking why they don't act differently. If you want to say they made a conscious choice not to do this, then say that. We can get into the whole flip-flop on Roy's views regarding whether leading people into grave danger is justified when the alternative risks soul-devouring. There's a big space to discuss that, and it's not the same one as talking about how Sendings work. But, at the end of the day, it seems like we'll break down to "it wouldn't be a good story." And there's a much smaller space to discuss that. So, ultimately, I'd like to know what angle we're going with, before I bore you with too many comic links and rules ideas.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Lien holders? (Wait, no, Lien has a boyfriend already...)
    Except once...

    Well done!
    OK.
    More likely Trigak's niece.
    Trigak's partner, and they're pissed at what happened to him. We know he was in a committed relationship.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tanonx View Post
    Well, let's see... the easiest answer is that they weren't asked to send help.
    One would assume that "save the entire universe from nonexistence" would be the sort of thing you wouldn't need to specifically ask for help on, they would go ahead and volunteer if they wanted. Again, the ones who know don't care.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    1: Bounded infinities remain infinite. The infinity between 2 and 3 is exactly as large as the infinity from which it is taken.

    B: Help from the world at large would be beneficial if there were large numbers of minions that had to be overcome for the heroes of the story to get to the object of their quest. Absent such a need, having the rest of the world show up to solve their problem would lead to a story similar to The Last Crusade, as told by Amy on Big Bang Theory.

    Tertius: Half of the gods are ready for a do-over. Anything they order, encourage, or allow their minions to do would be countered by the followers of the 'save it' faction, and vice-versa. The rest of the world cannot help.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    1: Bounded infinities remain infinite. The infinity between 2 and 3 is exactly as large as the infinity from which it is taken.
    You mean the infinity between 2 and 3 is as large as the infinity of the natural number set? Because if so, no, the first one is greater. Not all infinite sets are equal.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You mean the infinity between 2 and 3 is as large as the infinity of the natural number set? Because if so, no, the first one is greater. Not all infinite sets are equal.
    It depends on if you count the rational or the real numbers between 2 and 3. There are as many rational numbers between 2 and 3 as there are natural numbers, but the number of real numbers between 2 and 3 is an order (is that the right term in English?) higher.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Why are we talking at length about a Xanth novel, now? Even at the remove of "Xanth and OotS are both humorous works," Rich's sense of humor is very different from Piers Anthony's.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Half of the gods are ready for a do-over.
    A point which Serini has not, I think, internalized.
    I am pretty sure that Roy told her, but since she is so dismissive of these young folk, I am not sure she gave that aspect of the problem the attention it deserves.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Why are we talking at length about a Xanth novel, now? Even at the remove of "Xanth and OotS are both humorous works," Rich's sense of humor is very different from Piers Anthony's.
    Well, OotS is better than Star Wars but threads to tend to drift towards it every now and then.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You mean the infinity between 2 and 3 is as large as the infinity of the natural number set? Because if so, no, the first one is greater. Not all infinite sets are equal.
    Logically this appears to be true.

    It is not.

    Infinity is not logical to minds that have trouble counting past 20. But the entire infinity of numbers, (a bounded infinity because it excludes everything except numbers,) can be divided exactly the same number of times as the infinity between 2 and 3.

    Infinity = infinity
    Last edited by brian 333; 2023-03-11 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Logically this appears to be true.

    It is not.

    Infinity is not logical to minds that have trouble counting past 20. But the entire infinity of numbers, (a bounded infinity because it excludes everything except numbers,) can be divided exactly the same number of times as the infinity between 2 and 3.

    Infinity = infinity
    No math degree, i take it?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    In any case, the number of doors is finite.
    What I asked about, what must be done to consider dungeon as visited?
    Also, how the spell even analyzes visitors? Does it have some kind of mind or at least a database?
    Will this "database" accept that the dungeon is finished, if the visitor himself believes it is finished?

    If Xykon thinks that he actually visited doors marked by MitD, is it enough that the spell will also mark them as done?

    If I remember correctly, it was never explained what turns dungeon into "finished" state.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Logically this appears to be true.

    It is not.

    Infinity is not logical to minds that have trouble counting past 20. But the entire infinity of numbers, (a bounded infinity because it excludes everything except numbers,) can be divided exactly the same number of times as the infinity between 2 and 3.

    Infinity = infinity
    There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, and there are also an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 3.

    That second infinity encompasses the first and also has extra - they are not the same size.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Logically this appears to be true.

    It is not.

    Infinity is not logical to minds that have trouble counting past 20. But the entire infinity of numbers, (a bounded infinity because it excludes everything except numbers,) can be divided exactly the same number of times as the infinity between 2 and 3.

    Infinity = infinity
    There are infinite natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...) but there's also an infinite series of real numbers in between each of those natural numbers. The infinite real numbers include all of the infinite natural numbers, because natural numbers are also real numbers. So the infinite number of real numbers is larger than the infinite number of natural numbers.

    Not all infinities are equal.
    Last edited by HalfTangible; 2023-03-11 at 10:49 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    In any case, the number of doors is finite.
    What I asked about, what must be done to consider dungeon as visited?
    Vaarsuvius started to address that; no one else in the Order was interested so it didn't get finished.
    If Xykon thinks that he actually visited doors marked by MitD, is it enough that the spell will also mark them as done?
    This remains a bit of speculation that makes no sense at all, with or without the reference to another book series that makes a point of not making sense. No one suggested that "one must believe they explored every single dungeon."

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Yes, good or bad, OotS world isn't Planescape, where belief is above all.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    My man V cracked the code without any tips.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    Not all infinities are equal.
    I find that the concept isn't that hard to grasp. I am, however, prepared to have my mind blown by being told that comparing infinities has practical relevance.

    More importantly though, is Sunny's doot dee dooooo supposed to imitate some very particular sound effect?
    I predict that Belkar will not die evil.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by enq View Post

    More importantly though, is Sunny's doot dee dooooo supposed to imitate some very particular sound effect?
    IMO it's Sunny's version of "dramatic musical cues" - making them was a running gag for Elan, that first appeared here:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2023-03-11 at 12:27 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Yes, but I associate Elan's cue with a "famous" real-world musical sequence, so I was wondering if there might be one for Sunny's too. Perhaps from some TV trivia show.
    I predict that Belkar will not die evil.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, and there are also an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 3.

    That second infinity encompasses the first and also has extra - they are not the same size.
    The interval 1...3 has numbers that are not in the interval 1...2. However, there are as many numbers in both of them.

    Why? Let's compare intervals 0...10 and 0...1 instead

    Take any number x in the interval 0...10 and divide it by 10. You get x/10 which is in 0...1 interval. Moreover, for any two different x values, also the x/10 is different. Hence, there are AT LEAST as many numbers in interval 0...1 as there are in 0...10, because every number in the latter has a "related" number in 0...1

    Thus, the intervals have as many numbers.

    The logic is a bit similar to why there are as many natural numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... as there are whole numbers ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3 ...
    You can list both as sequences
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... (natural numbers)
    0, 1, -1, 2, -2 ... (whole numbers)

    Now, for each whole number, you can pick a natural number which is in the same ordinal slot as the original.

    If you are interested in this, please check Infinite sets page or Cantor's diagonal argument page in wiki. Seems like I can't post links here.
    Last edited by Misna; 2023-03-11 at 12:50 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    One would assume that "save the entire universe from nonexistence" would be the sort of thing you wouldn't need to specifically ask for help on, they would go ahead and volunteer if they wanted. Again, the ones who know don't care.
    It seems a bit awkward that I went on to lay out why they didn't receive that specific kind of help, and did receive the type of help that was available and useful at the time, meaning all of this has already been addressed in detail.

    Should I assume your quote of me clipped off there because you stopped reading at that point? It's not a convention I'm familiar with, and even the quote specified sending help, not helping period, but at this point we're clearly not on the same page for some reason.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, and there are also an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 3.

    That second infinity encompasses the first and also has extra - they are not the same size.
    Yeah, like I said, it isn't intuitively logical.

    It really doesn't matter that a bounded infinity includes other bounded infinities. Infinity x2 is exactly the same size as infinity cubed. They may include different components, but all infinities are equally infinite.

    This is not the same as apples and oranges. If one has all the apples, and someone else has all the oranges, combining the two creates a greater whole. Combining two finite things does that.

    Infinities are imaginary. They do not have limits such as all the apples or all the grains of sand on Earth, or even all the atoms currently existing in the universe. So no matter how infinite one's imagination, one can always imagine doubling the quantity or halving the granularity, or +1 more imaginary unit.

    The quantity of any one infinity is the same as the quantity of any two infinities, or of every infinity combined. Infinity = infinity.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Infinity x2 is exactly the same size as infinity cubed. They may include different components, but all infinities are equally infinite.
    One can compare x^2 to x^3, for higher and higher x, both diverges to infinity, but if we compare by, e.g. division (x^2) / (x^3), despite x^2 diverges towards infinity, (x^2) / (x^3) diverges towards zero, because x^3 increases faster than x^2.
    Last edited by BaronOfHell; 2023-03-11 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    1: Bounded infinities remain infinite. The infinity between 2 and 3 is exactly as large as the infinity from which it is taken.
    The Stallion is not infinitely small, however, thus it can't be infinitely different places between 2 and 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by enq View Post
    More importantly though, is Sunny's doot dee dooooo supposed to imitate some very particular sound effect?
    I think it's supposed to be the ending sting of the Legend of Zelda treasure opening music.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Why are we talking at length about a Xanth novel, now? Even at the remove of "Xanth and OotS are both humorous works," Rich's sense of humor is very different from Piers Anthony's.
    If Rich's sense of humour was like Piers Anthony's is, I'd have stopped reading the comic within a few pages. If Anthony's was like Rich's is, I might possibly have read more of his books.

    Quote Originally Posted by enq View Post
    More importantly though, is Sunny's doot dee dooooo supposed to imitate some very particular sound effect?
    I take it to be like a trumpet — using musical scales, C c GGGGG; using do-re-me, DO-do-SOOOOOO. Or using musical intervals, the third note is up a fifth from the first two. TAN-ta-RAAAAA!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    This remains a bit of speculation that makes no sense at all, with or without the reference to another book series that makes a point of not making sense. No one suggested that "one must believe they explored every single dungeon."
    Yeah, I've been baffled by the idea that just declaring you cleared the dungeons, or marking the doors, or just believing in it enough, would make a difference. Why it would be set up like that, how it even could be set up like that, etc. Mostly, though, I've been thinking of Michael Scott's "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I think it's supposed to be the ending sting of the Legend of Zelda treasure opening music.
    But that's four notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    I take it to be like a trumpet — using musical scales, C c GGGGG; using do-re-me, DO-do-SOOOOOO. Or using musical intervals, the third note is up a fifth from the first two. TAN-ta-RAAAAA!
    I think that sounds more dramatic than celebratory. Also I seem to be forever associating it with something from the Worms game. Maybe launching a flying sheep?
    I predict that Belkar will not die evil.

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    biggrin Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    It's great to see Serini being frustrated like that!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misna View Post
    as there are whole numbers ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3 ...
    You mean integers...the set of whole numbers is just the natural numbers with 0 added, no negative numbers.

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