OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[JT]

...
It isn't twice as big, it is ten times as big, it's infinitely bigger. Because the notion of an infinity "twice the size" of another infinity is nonsensical which is what I was talking about.

I assume you made a typo (or got auto-corrupted), and meant to say "It isn't twice as big, it ISN'T ten times as big, it's infinitely bigger."

(At least, I hope that's what you meant to type.)

Random aside: although I "knew" (i.e. "had been taught") that the set of rational numbers was countably infinite, I hadn't seen the demonstration of how to count them all until this thread started me looking. So something good came of it!

[ZhonLord]

At this point my theory is that the final battle between the Order and Team Evil, is going to be a reverse of how they first met at Dorukan's Gate.

Xykon and Redcloak fight their way through the final dungeon. They spend so many spell slots to get to the room holding Kraagor's Gate. And in the final room is a stage next to the Gate, upon which stands Roy and all his allies; humanoid, monster, spectre. And he just says: "Hey".

Roll initiative!

[Jacky720]

There is the issue that, while it would be suitably climactic to have the fight at the gate, Serini seems to have convinced the Order that it's a bad idea tactically. I feel like it'll happen, but by accident, not deliberately setting up camp back there (though that would be a fun call back).

[lio45]

Random aside: although I "knew" (i.e. "had been taught") that the set of rational numbers was countably infinite, I hadn't seen the demonstration of how to count them all until this thread started me looking. So something good came of it!

Haha! Same here! At first I was even a tiny bit skeptical (my high-level math being rusty these days) because compared to the Naturals/Integers, the Rationals can almost seem as uncountable as the Reals at first sight, but then I saw the diagonal square mapping idea and was, of course, immediately convinced :)

It's been a while since a discussion made it THAT easy to split this forum's userbase into two groups: the ones who are familiar with advanced math and the ones who aren't.

[brian 333]

Haha! Same here! At first I was even a tiny bit skeptical (my high-level math being rusty these days) because compared to the Naturals/Integers, the Rationals can almost seem as uncountable as the Reals at first sight, but then I saw the diagonal square mapping idea and was, of course, immediately convinced :)

It's been a while since a discussion made it THAT easy to split this forum's userbase into two groups: the ones who are familiar with advanced math and the ones who aren't.

There are infinite ways to divide the users of this forum into two groups. I, for example, am in the group that is horrible at guessing what comes next.

But this time I will earn back all the quatloos I borrowed and lost on other guesses!

Okay, so, I speculate that The Order will pounce, and Serini will appear to be going along with them, only she will have reset the last swapover to drop everyone into the Astral Plane where they can duke it out without risking the final gate being caught in the crossfire.

Further, it will be shown that her plan all along has been to divert TE away from the gate without their ever having been aware of her presence by using the Swapovers this way.

The final dungeon crawl will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, to which he retreats when The Order overwhelms him.

[gbaji]

I remember waaaaaaaay back when the first sight of the tomb was shown, thinking "that doesn't make much sense". I would have created a series of dungeons that had to be travelled thorugh in serial, not parallel (so the exit door of one leads to the entrance of the other). Always felt that this made more sense and would make it much much harder (have to fight through to the "end"). Especially if the dungeons "respawn" over time, since you can't just walk out and rest up. It's just a more classic dungeon design methodology.

Figured that Serini just did something else instead, but now it appears that she did actually somehow set it up that way. Just not sure how that works magically. Eh. She's a rogue. "sneaky" comes along with the territory.

[Breccia]

They spend so many spell slots to get to the room holding Kraagor's Gate.

First of all, I love this image.

Second of all, Xykon seems to be the type to rush through what he thinks is the finish line low on fuel, while Redcloak might suspect there's more waiting and urge tactical retreat.

If Redcloak convinces Xykon, the Order gets the final Gate.

If Xykon ignores Redcloak, it could be the final straw for Redcloak to back out and renegotiate with Durkon.

[pearl jam]

The idea that [1:3] has "twice as many" real numbers as [1:2] is incorrect, because infinite numbers in general do not work that way.

0 <= counting number < countable infinity (Aleph₀) < size of real number set (c or Aleph₁)

All countable infinities are the same size; they are all greater than any finite integer and all are smaller than the size of the set of real numbers. You cannot say that 2*Aleph₀ > Aleph₀. In fact,

Aleph₀ + Aleph₀ = Aleph₀ * Aleph₀ = sqrt(Aleph₀) = Aleph₀.

Aleph₀ - Aleph₀ doesn't exist
Aleph₀ / Aleph₀ doesn't exist.

The reason the rules work this way is logical, and has been explained already, but to summarize: if two sets can be mapped onto each other, they are the same size. Here onto means covering the entire set, nothing left out. A 1-to-1 mapping is NOT required to prove this, it's just simpler to use a mapping that covers both directions.

Using (a:b) to means all values x such that a < x < b and [a:b] to means all x such that a <= x <= b, we get

(0:1) maps onto [0:1] by multiplying x in (0:1) to x' = 1.5*x-0.25, covering (-0.25:1.25) which includes all the points in [0:1]
[0:1] maps onto (0,1) via the identity map.
In both cases "having stuff left over" doesn't matter. They are the same size.

I pray this sheds some light on the matter.

Actually, this explanation has been given several times previously in the thread, but some people are stuck on the fact that the arithmetical difference between 1 and 3 is twice the difference between 1 and 2 that it doesn't necessarily follow that the infinity between 1 and 3 is also twice the size of the infinity between 1 and 2 because it runs counter to our intuition based on dealing with generally very finite countable sets of numbers most of the time in life.

But, if at first we don't succeed, we can always try again. lol

EDIT:

So, while we can show that 1.5 is found in both the set of all numbers between 1 and 2 and all numbers between 1 and 3, 2.5 is only found in the latter set. This is true, but these are discrete values.

We can also say that all the numbers greater than 2 and less than or equal to 3 are only found in the latter set. This is true, we will never find our example 2.5 in the first set.

But, when we try to quantify how many numbers are between 1 and 2 and between 1 and 3 the discrete values are no longer of importance. Each number is simply an one entry in the list of numbers in that set and when if we compare the sets using that mapping formula we find that neither set will ever run out of numbers before the other set, so they are the same "size".

[Imbalance]

It's an extremely derogatory word for halfling foot fungus. Because, you know, halflings don't normally get it, being barefoot.

Got a source? I can accept the answer, just would like to know where it came from.

[brian 333]

Got a source? I can accept the answer, just would like to know where it came from.

Dr. Scholl's Guide To Healthy Feet. It discusses athletes' feet, nurses' feet, trench foot, and a myriad of other foot-related health issues, but documents not a single case of halfling foot fungus. Ipso facto, halflings have no foot health issues.

[Psyren]

How infinite is the set of forum posters arguing about infinite sets?

Thankfully the page limit is finite, so we'll never know

[RatElemental]

Thankfully the page limit is finite, so we'll never know

I doubt it'd be the first time a chain of threads was spun off from the discussion thread.

[bunsen_h]

Dr. Scholl's Guide To Healthy Feet. It discusses athletes' feet, nurses' feet, trench foot, and a myriad of other foot-related health issues, but documents not a single case of halfling foot fungus. Ipso facto, halflings have no foot health issues.

In our world, maybe. In the D&Dverse, there are a number of fungal diseases that will eat anyone.

I tried searching for "tweeby" without success, but "tweeb" is a slang term for someone who constantly uses technological devices (phone, tablet, etc.), especially if that person is annoying. It's a portmanteau of "tech" and "dweeb". Serini doesn't seem to be using "tweeby" in anything like that sense. If "tweeby shoe-doubler" is anything like "goody two-shoes", it ought to stand for something like "Lawful-Goody" or just "Lawful-ish".

[Onyavar]

Google doesn't know what "tweeby" means.

...neither do I...

I think "tweeby shoe-doubler" is a twist on "Goody Two-Shoes", with a soupçon of halflingish dislike of shoes in general.

In our world, maybe. In the D&Dverse, there are a number of fungal diseases that will eat anyone.

I tried searching for "tweeby" without success, but "tweeb" is a slang term for someone who constantly uses technological devices (phone, tablet, etc.), especially if that person is annoying. It's a portmanteau of "tech" and "dweeb". Serini doesn't seem to be using "tweeby" in anything like that sense. If "tweeby shoe-doubler" is anything like "goody two-shoes", it ought to stand for something like "Lawful-Goody" or just "Lawful-ish".

Thank you all for still trying to make sense of Serini's swears.
So, I also came across "dweeb", meaning nerdy and bookish.

My actual first impression of "tweeby" was it being a rough equivalent of "twofold". I would think that Halflings consider themselves normal-sized, hence "tweeby" is a derogatory word for people who are twice a regular person's size but only half as witty as a brave halfling. (Sidenote: in German, being called "one-folded" (einfältig) means "simple-minded". By that logic, having more "folds" means increasing sophistication. But that's a whole other topic.)

Now, being called a "fleece-folder" is even worse. Who folds perfectly good fleeces?

[The MunchKING]

I tried searching for "tweeby" without success, but "tweeb" is a slang term for someone who constantly uses technological devices (phone, tablet, etc.), especially if that person is annoying. It's a portmanteau of "tech" and "dweeb". Serini doesn't seem to be using "tweeby" in anything like that sense.

The version of "tweeb" I had heard of was the Tweebs in Kim Possible. She used it as a portmanteau of "twin" and "dweebs" to refer to her younger twin brothers.

[arimareiji]

tweeby shoe-doubler
goat-smacking fleece folders


man, this lady is on fire

These are great but I can't believe no one pointed out "Shut your pointy-eared mouth!"... that conjures the most amusing mental image of a disembodied mouth with two pointy ears stuck to it. XD

[Precure]

Fleece is a reference to Jason and Argonauts, but I'm not sure what she implied by that line.

[Lumix19]

For some reason I thought 'shoe-doubler' referred to some sort of rigid thinker who bought two pairs of every shoe they like.

And thus never bought different types of shoes again.

[BloodSquirrel]

For some reason I thought 'shoe-doubler' referred to some sort of rigid thinker who bought two pairs of every shoe they like.

And thus never bought different types of shoes again.

That isn't being a rigid thinker. It's basic common sense for anyone who has trouble finding shoes that fit well.

[Fyraltari]

Fleece is a reference to Jason and Argonauts

Is it? The Golden Fleece isn't the only fleece.

[Wintermoot]

We may have to accept that we aren't MEANT to understand the insults. That they are meant to be sort of generically, funny sounding, psuedo-insults that popularly come out of old people in sitcom-like comedy situations and old cartoons and the like.

Although I think the correlation between "tweeby shoe-doubler" and 'goody two-shoes" is VERY strong and hats off to whomever thought of it.

[Satohika]

Do Serini has a British accent?

[bunsen_h]

These are great but I can't believe no one pointed out "Shut your pointy-eared mouth!"... that conjures the most amusing mental image of a disembodied mouth with two pointy ears stuck to it. XD

To be fair, I can see how someone might get that impression of V.

[ZhonLord]

Bit of a tangent, what would happen if the team saved some of Belkar's true stew to give to MitD? The massive difference in flavor, texture and quality from the impromptu vulture stew he previously had. Think that would be enough to make him switch sides, considering how big a deal everyone makes about our murderous halfling's cooking skills?

[Kish]

One hopes the Order does not do anything disastrous enough to make the creature switch sides back now; he's on their side as it is.

[arimareiji]

To be fair, I can see how someone might get that impression of V.

Well-played. (^_~)˚

Spoiler: if a picture is worth a thousand words, here this GIF may be worth more than a Tesla

Show

[El_Chupacabra]

I'm guessing that the final entrance is only revealed when every dungeon has been fully "explored" within a set period of time. What I'd also hope is that Serini had some sort of "reset" switch that could be pulled to negate that time, causing an enemy to waste time endlessly re-running the dungeon until A) they gave up or died B) the person pulling the reset switch was caught before pulling it.

Serini still is operating on a "Need to Know" basis so perhaps in the coming pages, they'll reveal that they have one that they can only get to by going into one of the earlier dungeons, and they'll get caught in the process. Captured or Final Battle?

However, if no, I wonder if that reveals that Serini truly did not expect to live long enough to actually need a switch, and did not intend to designate a successor? That would probably count as a flaw in her design, compared to at least some of the others which actually had a plan of succession.

Soon's Gate: create a society around guarding a gate without actually revealing that was the purpose to any but the highest leadership.
Girard's Gate: have a family community, close-knit and dedicated to secrecy, in permanent hiding and seclusion.
Dorukan's Gate: Um... become something akin to a Lich? No apparent plan of succession, otherwise.
Lirian's Gate: melt into the forest, make "Nature" so hazardous that the area becomes a huge "here be dragons" area. Technically, nature would be the succession here.

Perhaps Serini has largely befriended and trained the monsters to accept some creatures like the Beh[REDACTED] Floating Magical Eyeball as leaders? Seems to be a stretch.

While no plan of succession is guaranteed, to me, that's two Gates with a concrete plan of succession, one with a plan that can work really well but is highly dependent on the region not becoming an attractive option for settlement (or Indiana Jones/Lara Croft types), and two with no apparent plan at all.

[gbaji]

I'm guessing that the final entrance is only revealed when every dungeon has been fully "explored" within a set period of time. What I'd also hope is that Serini had some sort of "reset" switch that could be pulled to negate that time, causing an enemy to waste time endlessly re-running the dungeon until A) they gave up or died B) the person pulling the reset switch was caught before pulling it.

I guess this actually raises an important question though: Why did Serini set up any way to get to the gate at all? I mean. She's surrounded the gate in teleportation, scrying, and ghost/ethereal proof stone. She's set up a situation where there's no physical or magical way to get to the actual location the gate is, and forces folks to run though all the dungeons instead (which they can't bypass because of the above reasons).

Um... Why have any trigger that opens the final dungeon at all? Just seal the chamber with the gate behind this stone, and then just *not* put a swapover or whatever that leads to it, and *not* create some home brewed magic that tracks people who explore every dungeon, and just, you know.. not make it possible to get there?

I mean, I get making people *think* they can get there by exploring the dungeons (otherwise, they'll just get out the excavation equipment). But if you're going through the trouble of the additional enchantments counting folks entering and exploring dungeons, why not just have a big announcement saying "Ding! You have now advanced to level <x+1>", and then reset/restock the dungeons, and have them just have to do the whole thing all over again. You know, endlessly. Thinking they're getting somewhere.

That's how a rogue would play a shell game and include a barbarian guantlet. Yeah. The whole "restock on demand" bit is a stretch, but still... Even if "they wont realize they need to just start digging until they've already managed to explore all the dungeons", would be a massive setback. Certainly better than just "Ok. I'll open the door for you now".

[brian 333]

I guess this actually raises an important question though: Why did Serini set up any way to get to the gate at all? I mean. She's surrounded the gate in teleportation, scrying, and ghost/ethereal proof stone. She's set up a situation where there's no physical or magical way to get to the actual location the gate is, and forces folks to run though all the dungeons instead (which they can't bypass because of the above reasons).

Um... Why have any trigger that opens the final dungeon at all? Just seal the chamber with the gate behind this stone, and then just *not* put a swapover or whatever that leads to it, and *not* create some home brewed magic that tracks people who explore every dungeon, and just, you know.. not make it possible to get there?

I mean, I get making people *think* they can get there by exploring the dungeons (otherwise, they'll just get out the excavation equipment). But if you're going through the trouble of the additional enchantments counting folks entering and exploring dungeons, why not just have a big announcement saying "Ding! You have now advanced to level <x+1>", and then reset/restock the dungeons, and have them just have to do the whole thing all over again. You know, endlessly. Thinking they're getting somewhere.

That's how a rogue would play a shell game and include a barbarian guantlet. Yeah. The whole "restock on demand" bit is a stretch, but still... Even if "they wont realize they need to just start digging until they've already managed to explore all the dungeons", would be a massive setback. Certainly better than just "Ok. I'll open the door for you now".

In case of emergency. I don't know what that emergency might be, but leaks and cracks that need repair come to mind. No way to get in means it can't be inspected for fatigue or stress fracturing.

[Fyraltari]

In case of emergency. I don't know what that emergency might be, but leaks and cracks that need repair come to mind. No way to get in means it can't be inspected for fatigue or stress fracturing.

In case of emergency she'd have to run throug twon hundred dungeons most of which she'd have to climb/levitate up to?