OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[brian 333]

In case of emergency she'd have to run throug twon hundred dungeons most of which she'd have to climb/levitate up to?

Unless she has already gone through all the dungeons, such as on the day she made them, and can get to the final one any time she likes. So far as I know, there is no timer.

[Wintermoot]

People keep asking this question.

This is a self-aware stick figure parady universe (see Durkon/Thor conversation). The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'

She can't avoid that anymore than, in the real world, I get to choose if I want to obey the laws of gravity or thermodynamics.

[The MunchKING]

In case of emergency she'd have to run throug twon hundred dungeons most of which she'd have to climb/levitate up to?

If she's friends with the monsters, rather than them being nonsentient, then she might not need to go down them herself or they at least wouldn't impede her.

[Psyren]

I doubt it'd be the first time a chain of threads was spun off from the discussion thread.

Well sure - but at least then it would have to go over to Mad Science and Grumpy Technology, and thus be easily ignored by people who are in the comic thread to talk about the, you know, comic.

Do Serini has a British accent?

I picture her sounding like an old-timey woman - say, like an older Olive Oyl from Popeye, or maybe Madam Mim from The Sword In the Stone.

Bit of a tangent, what would happen if the team saved some of Belkar's true stew to give to MitD? The massive difference in flavor, texture and quality from the impromptu vulture stew he previously had. Think that would be enough to make him switch sides, considering how big a deal everyone makes about our murderous halfling's cooking skills?

Given MitD's, uh... discerning palate... I don't think it would notice the quality difference.

(On top of which, it doesn't appear to be quite as food-motivated as it was back then.)

Having said all that, it's practically switched sides already.

[HalfTangible]

People keep asking this question.

This is a self-aware stick figure parady universe (see Durkon/Thor conversation). The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'

She can't avoid that anymore than, in the real world, I get to choose if I want to obey the laws of gravity or thermodynamics.

That, and in this dungeon's case, the endpoint would be the gate, which has to be somewhere

[Windscion]

... some of the others which actually had a plan of succession.

Soon's Gate: create a society around guarding a gate without actually revealing that was the purpose to any but the highest leadership.
Girard's Gate: have a family community, close-knit and dedicated to secrecy, in permanent hiding and seclusion.
Dorukan's Gate: Um... become something akin to a Lich? No apparent plan of succession, otherwise.
Lirian's Gate: melt into the forest, make "Nature" so hazardous that the area becomes a huge "here be dragons" area. Technically, nature would be the succession here.

Dorukan's successor was anyone of pure heart. Sure, there are loads of ways around that restriction, but the other gate guardians had their own flaws.

[bunsen_h]

This is a self-aware stick figure parady universe (see Durkon/Thor conversation). The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'

Where does that come from? From the bugbears' point of view, the setup was an unending supply of food and magic items. A given door's dungeon respawned, if given enough time. They had no idea that there was a bonus level if someone completed all of the existing ones, and it would have been irrelevant to them even if they'd known, since there was no way any of them could have done it.

[Lumix19]

That isn't being a rigid thinker. It's basic common sense for anyone who has trouble finding shoes that fit well.

Sure, it's good sense to us.

Perhaps to Serini, who seems fairly Chaotic, it's less so.

Particularly since halflings seem to have such an aversion to footwear.

[Keltest]

Sure, it's good sense to us.

Perhaps to Serini, who seems fairly Chaotic, it's less so.

Particularly since halflings seem to have such an aversion to footwear.

Maybe "shoe-doubler" is just a halfling slur for a human? Theyre people twice as tall (more or less) who wear shoes.

[Wintermoot]

Where does that come from?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html. panel 7.

From the bugbears' point of view, the setup was an unending supply of food and magic items. A given door's dungeon respawned, if given enough time. They had no idea that there was a bonus level if someone completed all of the existing ones, and it would have been irrelevant to them even if they'd known, since there was no way any of them could have done it.

So? The bugbears are NPCs in this self-aware stick figure fantasy universe and they know it. Everyone in this universe understands the difference between NPCs and PCs. And, no, if you don't understand that I'm not going to send you a link because it would be a link to pretty much the entire series so far.

NPCs, from all the way back to the little village they went to after Dorokun's dungeon, through the guards in Cliffport, to the theives in the thieves' guild to the gnomes in tinkertown all understand their place in the universe. The bugbears in bugbear village are no different.

Again, no one* complained about Dorokun's dungeon having the gate at the end. No one* complained about Girard's dungeon having the gate at the end. (granted, the dungeon, in that case, was offline anyway). Why the complaints about the fact that Serini's has the gate at the end. That's where it belongs, in the immutable laws that govern this iteration of reality.


Don't like that as an explanation? Well, within the actual universe, the gate exists and can't be moved. So it has to be SOMEWHERE. Serini has dumped several metric tons of dimensional stone on top of it and built TWO LAYERS of defensive dungeon. One, a complex "shell-game/gauntlet" that forces the person to clear out 100+ individual dungeons to even REVEAL the door to the SECOND defensive dungeon. That's already more than double what any other scribblers did, and Serini had to contract it all out because she's not a spellcaster. And the result is something that's actually proven MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than the second level to fifth level spells joe wizard would need to dig the gate out if the dungeons weren't there.

Frankly, its absurd to suggest she hasn't knocked the socks off the other scribblers as far as defense goes IMO.

*don't @ me. I'm well aware that many people have complained because complaining is what people do best. Hyperbole is hyperbole.

[bunsen_h]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html. panel 7.

No, I mean the "The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'" part. Who says that dungeons necessarily have endpoints?

[pearl jam]

No, I mean the "The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'" part. Who says that dungeons necessarily have endpoints?

Are you suggesting that some dungeons might be infinite?

[Peelee]

Are you suggesting that some dungeons might be infinite?

Depends on how big.

[brian 333]

Wait, the infinite cannot be big...

Oh. Nevermind. I'll be over here playing with my Spaceballs Action Figures.

[El_Chupacabra]

Dorukan's successor was anyone of pure heart. Sure, there are loads of ways around that restriction, but the other gate guardians had their own flaws.

Ah... I don't fully recall that, but it has been a while. Ok, so that leaves probably one gate with no apparent succession plans. Not saying none were set up, since Serini could have something in mind after all of these years.

[brian 333]

Ah... I don't fully recall that, but it has been a while. Ok, so that leaves probably one gate with no apparent succession plans. Not saying none were set up, since Serini could have something in mind after all of these years.

What do you think Sunny is?

[Peelee]

What do you think Sunny is?

An Eye Tyrant.

[Kish]

Sunny doesn't seem terribly tyrannical.

[Wintermoot]

No, I mean the "The universe itself has certain conventions that can't NOT be followed. One of those is 'dungeons have endpoints'" part. Who says that dungeons necessarily have endpoints?

Ha ha okay.

Well, I guess it's an axiom I learned from playing D&D for thirty odd years and being through a lot of them. But, sure. I'll point you to every module ever printed. (including 'the world's largest dungeon' and 'undermountain') You point me to one example of "a dungeon without an end".

[ZhonLord]

Ha ha okay.

Well, I guess it's an axiom I learned from playing D&D for thirty odd years and being through a lot of them. But, sure. I'll point you to every module ever printed. (including 'the world's largest dungeon' and 'undermountain') You point me to one example of "a dungeon without an end".

There could be a dungeon that loops back on itself, so that nowhere in it truly qualifies as the "end". Like it drops you down a hole, and you land in a long circular hallway that takes you back around constantly. I played under a DM who loved to pull crap like that.

[Wintermoot]

There could be a dungeon that loops back on itself, so that nowhere in it truly qualifies as the "end". Like it drops you down a hole, and you land in a long circular hallway that takes you back around constantly. I played under a DM who loved to pull crap like that.

Yeah, and there's a reason why "that dungeon" doesn't get published. Because editors and publishers recognize it as an irritating gotchya garbage play that will get players to throw away the module and stop playing with the DM that runs it. Players like a challenge, but they like beatable objectives, not snide little 'haha, you lose no matter what you do" twists.

If you are ever a DM and you think "oh I have a great idea, hee hee", and it's like this? Don't. Just Don't. It's not *SO* original. It's not *SO* clever. It's not good DMing.

Even that dungeon has an end. it's "when the players realize they are going in circles" followed by "players stop playing"

In this comic, that would be "when redcloack and xykon realize that progress through the dungeons isn't getting them anywhere and blow their way to the gate instead"

Team Evil KNOW the gate it in the center of the mass of dimensional stone because that's where it IS. The two layers of dungeon are the BEST possible way to delay them and possibly defeat them because it engages them and keeps them going down what APPEARS to be the way to get there. Without the dungeons you are left with "oh it's under the stone. Okay, stone shape and earth elementals to the rescue. Oh what? dimensional stone isn't malleable by magic? Okay. I'll be back in a tic with some dominated Dwarven engineers and alchemical bombs"

Without the dungeons, they would already have the gate. Period.

[danielxcutter]

I... would hope there's an actual exit to that and it's not just a meaningless circle.

[Fish]

The end to the circular dungeon is when the players have finally acquired so much loot through repetition of the circle that the loot occludes the passage and they all suffocate.

[OvisCaedo]

Well... I can imagine dungeons without an "end point" pretty easily, honestly. That doesn't mean it has to be infinite, just that there's not really a singular "final room" that's the goal of it. It could just be a bunch of connected rooms with some branching paths and multiple dead ends. Just a dungeon to explore and find various treasures scattered around.

Though in something like DnD, or most games (maybe not true roguelikes?), there usually is a specific goal and an end point to go with it. But in the case of the shell game gauntlet dungeons... Who knows? It seems like the point of them is that there ISN'T anything to find at the 'end', if there is a singular dead end. I could definitely imagine a bunch of these dungeons not having a singular dedicated end point. Unless, of course, they're all designed with that end point as the mechanism by which "did you go through every dungeon" is being checked.

[Wintermoot]

The end to the circular dungeon is when the players have finally acquired so much loot through repetition of the circle that the loot occludes the passage and they all suffocate.

the Katamari Damarcy solution to the problem of adventurers.

[bunsen_h]

There could be a dungeon that loops back on itself, so that nowhere in it truly qualifies as the "end". Like it drops you down a hole, and you land in a long circular hallway that takes you back around constantly. I played under a DM who loved to pull crap like that.

There are any number of SF/fantasy stories set in places that loop via higher dimensions. There's no reason that a D&D dungeon couldn't be in such a setting, where the goal isn't so much to go through every room and then exit, but to figure out how to escape.

An acquaintance of mine, a few decades ago, told me that he was planning to run a TTRPG set on a large-scale higher-dimensional hexaflexagon. Each time the characters crossed a border, it would "flex", though the characters had no way to perceive it -- the borders were all in regions with no distinguishing markings. If they crossed a border and then tried to cross back, they wouldn't end up in the same place.

[arimareiji]

Well... I can imagine dungeons without an "end point" pretty easily, honestly. That doesn't mean it has to be infinite, just that there's not really a singular "final room" that's the goal of it. It could just be a bunch of connected rooms with some branching paths and multiple dead ends. Just a dungeon to explore and find various treasures scattered around.

Though in something like DnD, or most games (maybe not true roguelikes?), there usually is a specific goal and an end point to go with it. But in the case of the shell game gauntlet dungeons... Who knows? It seems like the point of them is that there ISN'T anything to find at the 'end', if there is a singular dead end. I could definitely imagine a bunch of these dungeons not having a singular dedicated end point. Unless, of course, they're all designed with that end point as the mechanism by which "did you go through every dungeon" is being checked.

For some reason you reminded me of an old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon... Dungeon Master tells them their quest is to free someone from "a prison without walls". After he's gone, Eric snarks about how non-helpful DM's usual gnomic pronouncements are: (paraphrased) "What's that supposed to mean? Maybe we're supposed to find it in the Dungeon Without Floors?"

[Peelee]

For some reason you reminded me of an old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon... Dungeon Master tells them their quest is to free someone from "a prison without walls". After he's gone, Eric snarks about how non-helpful DM's usual gnomic pronouncements are: (paraphrased) "What's that supposed to mean? Maybe we're supposed to find it in the Dungeon Without Floors?"

Dungeon Master was the best.

Also, i loved how the DVD release had a handbook that included all the stats of the major characters, and also how they actually kept to the stats. IIRC Billy (or whoever the kid barbarian was) had a special ground pound attack 3x/day, and he never used it more than three times per episode. He would use it the full three times, but never a fourth. Shockingly good attention to detail for a niche 80s cartoon.

[lio45]

Actually, the most common "infinite dungeon" situation is almost certainly the one in which the DM knows with absolute certainty they don't need to bother fully defining the dungeon because some railroaded event will happen before the party ever gets to "the end" of the dungeon. (TPK, teleportation away, etc.)

[arimareiji]

Dungeon Master was the best.

Also, i loved how the DVD release had a handbook that included all the stats of the major characters, and also how they actually kept to the stats. IIRC Billy (or whoever the kid barbarian was) had a special ground pound attack 3x/day, and he never used it more than three times per episode. He would use it the full three times, but never a fourth. Shockingly good attention to detail for a niche 80s cartoon.

Close, Bobby. And thanks for the trivia which I never knew - given all the ways Hank used his energy arrows (to tie up a group standing close together, to shoot arrows into the ground that formed a dome to serve as a trampoline, etc), I sometimes wondered if they just made it up as they went along.

Also: Is it just me or did DM really shine in my favorite episode, The Dragon's Graveyard?

Spoiler: technically a spoiler for the episode, even if it was over 3 decades ago and the only people likely to care have already seen it (^_~)

Show

Watching again as a cynical adult, I mostly agree with the kids about taking care of Venger once and for all... but I still feel about 2 feet tall seeing/hearing his "Can I go?" before he leaves and doesn't return until the end