OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Close, Bobby. And thanks for the trivia which I never knew - given all the ways Hank used his energy arrows (to tie up a group standing close together, to shoot arrows into the ground that formed a dome to serve as a trampoline, etc), I sometimes wondered if they just made it up as they went along.

Also: Is it just me or did DM really shine in my favorite episode, The Dragon's Graveyard?

Spoiler: technically a spoiler for the episode, even if it was over 3 decades ago and the only people likely to care have already seen it (^_~)

Show

Watching again as a cynical adult, I mostly agree with the kids about taking care of Venger once and for all... but I still feel about 2 feet tall seeing/hearing his "Can I go?" before he leaves and doesn't return until the end

Well, let's be fair here, Venger was an epic level sorcerer and i think the kids wefe between levels 5-11, or something around there. The show should have lasted one episode where they get brutally murdered.

[arimareiji]

Well, let's be fair here, Venger was an epic level sorcerer and i think the kids wefe between levels 5-11, or something around there. The show should have lasted one episode where they get brutally murdered.

It's a shame I already used the "Eh, fair enough. Can't argue with that" GIF in this thread -- this would have been a good occasion.

Last thought, just curious 'cause it seems like people are generally one or t'other on this: Is Uni adorable but every now and again annoying, or does the sound "MEEEHH-EEEIIIHHHPPPT" send shivers up your spine and make you want to throw things?

[gbaji]

In case of emergency she'd have to run throug twon hundred dungeons most of which she'd have to climb/levitate up to?

Exactly. A couple of people have posted with idea tha Serini has a shortcut to the gate. I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it. Any such shortcut you put in will become the weakest link in the defenses. No one would run the guantlet. They'd just find backstage, find the shortcut, and get in that way. TE is somewhat unique in that they're exploring a bunch of dungeons without a rogue, so they can't find the swapovers. Any somewhat normal group of adventurers would find backstage quite quickly, just as the Order did. And having done that, would naturally spend their efforts fully exploring it looking for a way to the gate instead of going back to the dungeon grind.

Serini may know some tricks to get the dungeons to recognize "having been explored" faster maybe (she set up whatever magic is involved for that). But that's about as much as I would expect there to be in terms of shortcut. Heck. It could be as simple as just walk though all the swapovers. So you could just walk in, go 10 feet up, then turn around, then repeat X times. No one would normally do this unless they knew that it did something (how many times have your adventuring groups opened a door, walked in a short distance, then turned around and tried another door without exploring the area behing the first door fully?).

[The MunchKING]

The end to the circular dungeon is when the players have finally acquired so much loot through repetition of the circle that the loot occludes the passage and they all suffocate.

I mean that's just the Adventure Train from Adventure Time. You kept going until you died, had enough and got off, or got so much loot you couldn't move anymore and something kills you.

Well, let's be fair here, Venger was an epic level sorcerer and i think the kids wefe between levels 5-11, or something around there. The show should have lasted one episode where they get brutally murdered.

That was pretty much what happened in several of the episodes, IIRC. And then Tiamat, who had her own grudge against Venger would show up and scare him off before he could ACTUALLY kill the kids.

[InvisibleBison]

Any such shortcut you put in will become the weakest link in the defenses. No one would run the guantlet. They'd just find backstage, find the shortcut, and get in that way.

Unless the shortcut is something that only Serini can use.

[BloodSquirrel]

Unless the shortcut is something that only Serini can use.

If you can make the shortcut impassable to anyone except yourself, then you don't need the rest of the gate's defenses. Just stick your impassable door in front of it. The problem is that any such doorway, magical barrier, illusion, or whatever else have you won't stand up forever against an epic lich and a near-epic cleric who can work on it at their leisure.

[bunsen_h]

If you can make the shortcut impassable to anyone except yourself, then you don't need the rest of the gate's defenses. Just stick your impassable door in front of it. The problem is that any such doorway, magical barrier, illusion, or whatever else have you won't stand up forever against an epic lich and a near-epic cleric who can work on it at their leisure.

Let's say that I'm responsible for protecting a gate. I want it to be easy for me (and possibly other "approved" people) to access the thing, at need. I want it to be possible for some other people, meeting certain criteria, to access it, without knowing in advance who they are; there are circumstances under which it may be necessary and appropriate. I want to block anyone else from accessing it.

[Teasenitryn]

For some reason you reminded me of an old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon... Dungeon Master tells them their quest is to free someone from "a prison without walls". After he's gone, Eric snarks about how non-helpful DM's usual gnomic pronouncements are: (paraphrased) "What's that supposed to mean? Maybe we're supposed to find it in the Dungeon Without Floors?"

The best bit about that comment over the quest is, for those that know of the intended series finale that never got animated, that was always their quest from the very beginning, with that episode it was just on a smaller scale.

Spoiler: again this is old and niche but still, eh

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The endgame was to reverse the spell that made Venger, who was DM’s son, the evil being he was

Anyone who liked the series but hasn’t found this, look up requiem, you will find a script and a youtube video where the script was read through. Edited to add: Having looked it up myself to make sure that is still accurate, there is also a fan project animation of it.

[arimareiji]

The best bit about that comment over the quest is, for those that know of the intended series finale that never got animated, that was always their quest from the very beginning, with that episode it was just on a smaller scale.

Spoiler: again this is old and niche but still, eh

Show

The endgame was to reverse the spell that made Venger, who was DM’s son, the evil being he was

Anyone who liked the series but hasn’t found this, look up requiem, you will find a script and a youtube video where the script was read through. Edited to add: Having looked it up myself to make sure that is still accurate, there is also a fan project animation of it.

Thank you, this was quite a trip down Nostalgia Trail. (^_^)

I can't speak to how much the script got revised before it was made into the fan project... but for anyone who's curious about the original first draft that Michael Reaves says he turned in*: I managed to dig up a Wayback Machine archive of the old D&D cartoon fansite I hung out on in the late 90s, and among the links thereon was the one at the very bottom of this post. Reaves talks a bit about the history, but if you'd rather just see the script, scroll to the bottom and find a good old-fashioned "Click here".
* - But with no indication that any of it was reviewed, and with several elements that look like they'd have never made it past editing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010722...&Dpreface.html

[Teasenitryn]

Thank you, this was quite a trip down Nostalgia Trail. (^_^)

I can't speak to how much the script got revised before it was made into the fan project... but for anyone who's curious about the original first draft that Michael Reaves says he turned in*: I managed to dig up a Wayback Machine archive of the old D&D cartoon fansite I hung out on in the late 90s, and among the links thereon was the one at the very bottom of this post. Reaves talks a bit about the history, but if you'd rather just see the script, scroll to the bottom and find a good old-fashioned "Click here".
* - But with no indication that any of it was reviewed, and with several elements that look like they'd have never made it past editing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010722...&Dpreface.html

Very welcome :) Dungeons and Dragons and Thundercats were my two favourites when I was young. I had a quick scan through (I’m at work but night shift life is quiet enough to do some internetting), it looks like the fan project hits most of what I remember of the script outside of the ending, the draft of the script was left deliberately open ended in case they got to do a following season and in the animation choices were made by the kids as to where they ended up.

[Larsaan]

I want it to be possible for some other people, meeting certain criteria, to access it

It just occurred to me that Serini has created a set-up where the person most suited to accessing the gate, is someone who can befriend all the monsters around it.

My god, Elan could solo this place.

[brian 333]

Exactly. A couple of people have posted with idea tha Serini has a shortcut to the gate. I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it. Any such shortcut you put in will become the weakest link in the defenses. No one would run the guantlet. They'd just find backstage, find the shortcut, and get in that way. TE is somewhat unique in that they're exploring a bunch of dungeons without a rogue, so they can't find the swapovers. Any somewhat normal group of adventurers would find backstage quite quickly, just as the Order did. And having done that, would naturally spend their efforts fully exploring it looking for a way to the gate instead of going back to the dungeon grind.

Serini may know some tricks to get the dungeons to recognize "having been explored" faster maybe (she set up whatever magic is involved for that). But that's about as much as I would expect there to be in terms of shortcut. Heck. It could be as simple as just walk though all the swapovers. So you could just walk in, go 10 feet up, then turn around, then repeat X times. No one would normally do this unless they knew that it did something (how many times have your adventuring groups opened a door, walked in a short distance, then turned around and tried another door without exploring the area behing the first door fully?).

Serini doesn't need any tricks or bypasses. She has already run the gauntlet on the day she set up every swapover and, (if they exist) every endpoint checker. She can go to the final dungeon any time she likes.

There is no indication of a timer. If there is and I missed it, please show me so I can reread that part and revise my opinions.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, twenty quatloos that the Giant actually didn't think of how Serini would get in if she had to.

[Resileaf]

As I've said before

Why would Serini want to make it easy for her to reach the Gate? This isn't Serini's gate, this is Kraagor's gate. It's fully in character that she would make it impossible for her to reach it in honor of her fallen comrade.

[HalfTangible]

As I've said before

Why would Serini want to make it easy for her to reach the Gate? This isn't Serini's gate, this is Kraagor's gate. It's fully in character that she would make it impossible for her to reach it in honor of her fallen comrade.

Because Serini knows full well that if someone gets to the gate, she's going to have to follow them in and beat them there before they can do anything about it.

Also since the monsters here are all friends of hers to one extent or another, it would be easier even if she didn't do the rogue thing and install a backdoor.

The tomb is already in Kraagor's honor, she doesn't need to handicap her ability to defend it just for more honor. She's not a paladin.

[Resileaf]

Because Serini knows full well that if someone gets to the gate, she's going to have to follow them in and beat them there before they can do anything about it.

Also since the monsters here are all friends of hers to one extent or another, it would be easier even if she didn't do the rogue thing and install a backdoor.

The tomb is already in Kraagor's honor, she doesn't need to handicap her ability to defend it just for more honor. She's not a paladin.

Would she follow them? She was content with leaving the gate unsupervised after building it and only returned after Xykon almost killed her. Even now, her original plan was just to let Xykon deal with the defenses and do nothing but prevent the Order and the paladins from risking the Gate's safety.

And I wouldn't say all the monsters are her friends. The scrappy ones being assigned to a dungeon seem to imply a certain amount of unwillingness for being in that area.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm interpreting "tweeby shoe doubler" as an extra folksy "goodie two-shoes".

For the non Americans "goodie two-shoes" is sarcastic praise for someone (usual said by, and to a child) for always wearing shoes.

On the dungeon

I'm curious about the exact mechanism. I can't really think anything the would prevent someone from "cutting the knot", while enforcing the conditions, apart from "Magic thing never mentioned before or again".

Though, I suppose that thought goes in the "dungeons don't make sense" bucket.

On Math
I would implore people who have taken discreet math to stick to the word "cardinality" in mixed company; not "size" and not "type". It was extremely frustrating reading pages of what amounts to an argument about word choice without barely discussing word choice.

For those that are in the size of [0,1] ≠ [0,2] camp: In the 19th century some people made the subjective and controversial decision to use the word "size" to mean cardinality. Yes, the cardinality of [0,1] = the cardinality of [0,2]. No, you don't need to care about the cardinality, it's irrelevant for all physical objects, theoretical physical objects, and video game physics objects. Either just admit that mathematicians are talking about there own (consistent) gibberish with the "sizes" of infinite sets, or use the word "density", as in "the density of the integers is twice that of the even integers."

Repeating "Imagination" does not an argument make.

I have a counter argument.

[Cazero]

Because Serini knows full well that if someone gets to the gate, she's going to have to follow them in and beat them there before they can do anything about it.

Her original plan was to let the gate guard itself and get back to adventuring elsewhere. It's surprising the backstage even exists.

Also since the monsters here are all friends of hers to one extent or another, it would be easier even if she didn't do the rogue thing and install a backdoor.

The backstage monsters are her friends. If the rest were, she could have organised a zerg rush from all doors on Xykon and permanently solved the problem weeks ago.

[HalfTangible]

Her original plan was to let the gate guard itself and get back to adventuring elsewhere. It's surprising the backstage even exists.

The backstage monsters are her friends. If the rest were, she could have organised a zerg rush from all doors on Xykon and permanently solved the problem weeks ago.

"Anything too scrappy gets assigned to a dungeon"

[bunsen_h]

I'm curious about the exact mechanism. I can't really think anything the would prevent someone from "cutting the knot", while enforcing the conditions, apart from "Magic thing never mentioned before or again".

The spell description for Magic Mouth is pretty specific about what it can't distinguish. One could make a case that it -- or some enhanced version of it -- could trigger in the presence of "someone who has investigated all of the dungeons in this valley". And one can do a variety of interesting things with a Magic Mouth. One option would be a hyperdimensional path leading from the throat of the statue, accessible only when its mouth was open. But this is all speculative; I'm sure we'll have a better understanding when the time comes.

Her original plan was to let the gate guard itself and get back to adventuring elsewhere. It's surprising the backstage even exists.

If the incremental cost of the "backstage" area is small compared with the cost of the rest of the setup, there's no good reason why she wouldn't have allowed for some unexpected situations that might require her involvement. At the time the setup was constructed, she didn't have the traumatic fear of Xykon which is part of why she's refusing to take action now.

[gbaji]

Serini doesn't need any tricks or bypasses. She has already run the gauntlet on the day she set up every swapover and, (if they exist) every endpoint checker. She can go to the final dungeon any time she likes.

There is no indication of a timer. If there is and I missed it, please show me so I can reread that part and revise my opinions.

We don't know that there is a timer. We also don't know exactly what form "access to the final dungeon" actually takes, either.

If "access" is a physical opening/passage that only appears/opens after someone has meet the conditions (explored all the dungeons), then there must be a timer, or it would remain open for everyone after that point. And, if Serini has already triggered this while setting things up, then it would already be open (presumably not the case). So either "no access for everyone" or "must be a timer". Both of which negate the argument that serini can just bypass the dungeon exploration requirement now.

Even if it's not a physical opening, but some sort of transportation that activates only when someone meets the conditions, then it has to follow those same rules. If this transport works for everyone once anyone has completed the conditions, then there is no actual defense. All one needs is to find the location of whatever transports people to the dungeon and walk though if anyone at any point in the past has meet the conditions. So again, if Serini has meet the conditions already, then anyone walking up to the portal, touching the doodad, or whatever, will be transported to the final dungeon. Again, or there must be a timer, in which case this transportation no longer works. The alternative is that Serini has already nullified the entire point of building the dungeons in the first place (which I doubt).

The only case I can see where access to the dungeon would not require some sort of timer, is if access is only granted to those who have met the conditions, and no one else. So, some sort of teleporter that only triggers on "people who have explored every dungeon". So once you've done this, you can step through and enter the final dungeon. Serini, since she has previously explored all the dungeons (presumably before they were stocked), can walk though. Team Evil, once they finish their explorations, can walk through. The Order, on the other hand, can't walk though. The portal, transport spell, whatever, will simply not activate for them and not allow them access.

But wait! You say... What if it transports everyone who is with someone who's meet the conditions, right? So maybe as long as anyone steps up to the correct swapover, or patch of ground, or whatever, anyone standing with them, or who walks through then they do, or whatever, can go with them. That makes sense, right? Except, it doesn't. Whatever method you come up with were "Serini can bring people with her becuase she's meet the conditions" creates a massive security flaw. Now, all I have to do to get through to the gate is capture one halfling and force her to open the door for me. That's a lot easier than defeating 100 dungeons full of monsters powerful enough to grant exp to an epic level lich.

Based on this reasoning, it's possible for Serini to retain the ability to reach the gate. But it would be supremely unlikely for it to be set up such that she can bring others to the gate though. I get the storytelling reasons why people *want* for "Sereni can just take the Order to the gate" to be true. But from a "I'm trying to build this thing to keep people from getting to the gate", and doubly so a "I don't want people coming after me" pov? Makes zero sense.


My guess is that there is some sort of magical tag that is put on people when they "explore each dungeon" (with some variation as to exactly what is required to meet that criteria), and that only people who have all the tags can enter the final dungeon. That allows Serini to go to the gate to check on it, if she wants, but no one else.

If you're really looking for some way for the Order to get there without also having to "explore every dungeon", the we have to assume some sort of timed opening scenario (ie: opening appears for 1 hour after someone has completed the exploration of all the dungeons, then closes and resets the whole thing, allowing no-one access until someone repeats the conditions of "exploring all the dungeons" again). I'm not sure if (or why) Sereni would set things up this way, but it's the only possibility that "works" and allows people who haven't actually meet the conditions themselves to access the final dungeon, while still not completely nullifying the defenses entirely.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, and there's a reason why "that dungeon" doesn't get published. Because editors and publishers recognize it as an irritating gotchya garbage play that will get players to throw away the module and stop playing with the DM that runs it. Players like a challenge, but they like beatable objectives, not snide little 'haha, you lose no matter what you do" twists.

Like all of those arcade games that kept getting harder until you lose. They never got released ... wait, yes they did. (I see the point that you are making).

I mean that's just the Adventure Train from Adventure Time. You kept going until you died, had enough and got off, or got so much loot you couldn't move anymore and something kills you.

And when playing Pacman, you eventually died and had to get out another quarter ...

My god, Elan could solo this place.

Elan would be like the contents of a red solo cup.

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: rest of post collapsed to emphasize the sentence I'm replying to

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The spell description for Magic Mouth is pretty specific about what it can't distinguish. One could make a case that it -- or some enhanced version of it -- could trigger in the presence of "someone who has investigated all of the dungeons in this valley". And one can do a variety of interesting things with a Magic Mouth. One option would be a hyperdimensional path leading from the throat of the statue, accessible only when its mouth was open.

But this is all speculative; I'm sure we'll have a better understanding when the time comes.

Excellent point. Wondering about "intriguing mechanisms by which [making someone explore every dungeon] could be the case" mildly bothered me the two times I read the comic, but I eventually dismissed it as "not important enough to spend time worrying about".

I should've dismissed it for the better reason you point out, that "The Giant has almost definitely had one (at least) in mind for years, and we'll see it when it happens".

Afterthought: Two quatloos on "Whatever the mechanism is, it will be susceptible to the method Team Evil is using". (Maybe something like "The magic mouth is placed in front of a scrying device that can see the last room of every dungeon, and if it sees the same person/people enter all of them, it speaks a command word that triggers a similar-to-Contingency mechanism to reveal the Gate".) I don't think the Giant would have done that much story setup, only to cheap out and have the mechanism fail to activate for Team Evil because reasons.

After-afterthought: It would be funny (at least to me) if it is a magic mouth speaking a command word, as it would be a faint echo of O'Chul's bluff to Redcloak near the end of 545 (which in my headcanon would have been coincidentally true, if Girard's kin hadn't all been Familicided).

[Precure]

If I understand it right, V gives us three possible scenarios:

1. None of the doors are opening into the gate.
Confirmed not true by Serini

2. All doors are opening into the gate.
Proven wrong by Xykon who already tried many

3. Very last door is opening into the gate.
Vaarsuvius' theory

But what about:

4. A random door is opening into the gate.

[Resileaf]

If I understand it right, V gives us three possible scenarios:

1. None of the doors are opening into the gate.
Confirmed not true by Serini

2. All doors are opening into the gate.
Proven wrong by Xykon who already tried many

3. Very last door is opening into the gate.
Vaarsuvius' theory

But what about:

4. A random door is opening into the gate.

Because Serini was capable of giving a rough estimate, number 4 is disqualified.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The spell description for Magic Mouth is pretty specific about what it can't distinguish. One could make a case that it -- or some enhanced version of it -- could trigger in the presence of "someone who has investigated all of the dungeons in this valley". And one can do a variety of interesting things with a Magic Mouth. One option would be a hyperdimensional path leading from the throat of the statue, accessible only when its mouth was open. But this is all speculative; I'm sure we'll have a better understanding when the time comes.

First of all, magic mouth is detectible, I would assume that Redcloak has looked and not found anything.

"only visual and audible triggers can be used", not abstractions like "dungeon cleared".

"The range limit of a trigger is 15 feet per caster level" which is a decent size, but not enough to cover the terminus of all of hundred-ish dungeons, even assuming they are next to each other.

"The mouth cannot utter verbal components, use command words, or activate magical effects." The effect is regular words, not creating a path, not the trigger to create a path, and not the trigger for another magic mouth.

More generally, I don't see the creation of such a mechanism as the problem, but the creation of such a mechanism that can't be forced or bypassed. For example, there could have been regular keys at the end of each dungeon, and a door that require all keys to open. But such a door could be lock picked or blasted through.

[Precure]

Because Serini was capable of giving a rough estimate, number 4 is disqualified.

Actually, 3 and 4 have the same amount of time as an answer, as only "had to be 100 percent correct" answer to 4 is saying the maximum time Xykon could spend, same as 3, because it's still possible that that random door is also the last door.

[Resileaf]

Actually, 3 and 4 have the same amount of time as an answer, as only "had to be 100 percent correct" answer to 4 is saying the maximum time Xykon could spend, same as 3, because it's still possible that that random door is also the last door.

If 4 was true, then Serini couldn't give an accurate timeline as she would have no idea when Xykon would arrive to it. But as she was clearly aware of how long they had until Xykon could find the final dungeon, this gave away that there was a method to finding said final dungeon.

[arimareiji]

First of all, magic mouth is detectible, I would assume that Redcloak has looked and not found anything.

Fair point, if the magic mouth is in an area where Redcloak is. It's hard to imagine Serini would place a surveillance monitor for all the dungeons where Redcloak could easily find it.

"The mouth cannot utter verbal components, use command words, or activate magical effects." The effect is regular words, not creating a path, not the trigger to create a path, and not the trigger for another magic mouth.

Your mileage may vary. If all it says is "all dungeons cleared" and that happens to also be the trigger for a high-level specialized Contingency that can affect anything other than the caster, I could see a DM going either way.

[Liquor Box]

If the incremental cost of the "backstage" area is small compared with the cost of the rest of the setup, there's no good reason why she wouldn't have allowed for some unexpected situations that might require her involvement. At the time the setup was constructed, she didn't have the traumatic fear of Xykon which is part of why she's refusing to take action now.

There is a reason (or at least a possible reason). Any backstage entry-point could be exploited by an enemy to bypass all the other defences.

I don't think there's anything Serini can do so that no enemy could exploit it.

Any magical criteria that one has to meet to pass it would depend on the caster who set it up being able to do so in a way that another caster can't undo or fool (and it's generally easier to find a single weakness in something than set it up without weaknesses).

Serini could rely on secrecy and hope that the assailant might not find her backstage area at all - and there's a chance that might work with Xykon because of his personality. But I don't think it would work for most other parties. The Order figured out her teleport trap quickly and found her back stage area quickly (Hayley also found the backstage area in Dorukon's and V did in Girard's).