OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[InvisibleBison]

From that, if Serini is chaotic good, you'd imagine she'd have, among other things, difficulty hiding information

Why would you imagine that?

[bunsen_h]

I feel like the real issue here is everyone ignoring the indigenous fauna at the West Pole.

Lucrezia's beautiful frogs?

[Kish]

It'd also make sense for the biggest gate to be at the North Pole,

Aside from the things other people have pointed out, the rift behind Dorukan's Gate was explicitly the largest.

Serini quite simply could have recovered, gotten more aid, and upgraded her defenses, but at the end of the day, she has no ability to do a real defense simply because of the size of the gate.

Serini did not believe in her ability to forcibly repel someone powerful enough to overwhelm Dorukan and Lirian, because Dorukan and Lirian were, in her words, "so much better than me." I would expect someone who somehow gets from "Chaotic Good->can't conceal information" to be all over this acknowledgement of the Internet's tier system.

[gbaji]

The Gates are not the quest.
The Snarl is not the quest.
Saving Stickworld is only a side quest.

Defeating Xykon is the quest, and the most narratively powerful location to do so would be in his stronghold.

I'm going to agree with other posters on this. Xykon hasn't been the actual quest for a long time. Defeating him is still important to Roy, but the actual quest is "prevent the gates from being destroyed and the snarl released and/or the world destroyed".

If I were writing this as an adventure scenario, Xykon would be in the "hook" portion of the write up. He's the reason the Order gets set on the adventure path in the first place (one member has a blood oath that requires that he hunt down and destroy Xykon). The hook leads the party to the actual adventure, which in this case is entirely about the rifts, gates, and the snarl (and a bunch of other complexities as well, and includes side quests like Hel's plot, and the threat from the gods, the IFCC, etc).

I'm also about 99.99999% positive that the Astral fortress will have no bearing on the story. It's where Xykon *thinks* his phylactery is. But it's not there. Redcloack swapped it. If the Order goes there at all it would only be *after* they have resolved the situation with the gates (let's assume that Xykon Gates away to his fortress instead of being defeated). Um... That's at best a denouement to the story. Maybe. And a very disjointed one at that. The final conflict will occur at the final gate. Elan will make sure of it.

I suspect that there is just some sort of Alarm spell at the end of each dungeon. Perhaps that's what that light in #1261 actually represents. It might go "on" once someone has reached this end area to signify it has been completed.

That's... actually not bad at all. It's something we've been shown in comic, and something that could be used as a trigger. So a light turns on whenever someone enters the final room of a dungeon (eh. Still have to figure out how to make it key on folks who entered through the swapover from the hallow and not just monsters wandering around, but in the thread where we were speculating on the layout of the tomb, pretty much every scenario did require some sort of method for tracking who entered a dungeon and from which direction). Let's assume that the light in each dungeon stays on for a specific amount of time (maybe tied to the respawn cycle, and perhaps even associated with whatever method "opens up" the dungeons to wherever the monsters come from). Then it's as simple as another trigger where if all the lights are on <something happens>.

Where that final dungeon opening appears and the nature of that opening (and how long it stays open), is still subject to opinion, but the methodology makes sense. I'd mark this down as a strong possibility.

--My going theory on accessing the final area is that backstage will allow entry to the final dungeon, but only once someone else opens it first. This prevents backstage from being a liability, while still not leaving the defenders stuck should someone find their way in. No amount of luck will help you find the FD, someone must clear the hollow.

The only problem with this is that there must be some means to open the final dungeon that can't be bypassed. Any physical opening could be spoted and examined (and almost certainly would given that most "normal" parties would find backstage and explore it at some point). Any special opening or teleportation device sitting around where someone could see it presents a potential hole in the security. A more likely option is that the swapovers now all take you to the final dungeon rather than the individual dungeons. The assumption being that you have "cleared them all", so now all the entrances take you to the next location.

This "works" because the swapovers already exist. If someone spots them and examines them, they can figure out that they transport you to the dungeons, or if disabled take you to backstage. The extra location can easily be "hidden" within the existing magic. Even if someone with sufficient spellcraft noodles out that there's another trigger on them, they'll still have to actually trigger it (which doesn't really buy them anything). And they're unlikely to do so, since a fairly bssic bit of examination and experimentation makes it seem as though you have "figured out what they do". Sure. You could put another swapover in backstage that goes nowhere at all unless the dungeons have all be explored. But again, that might simply invite folks to spend more time looking at that swapover. It would make that one thing stand out as "this is the entrance to the final dungeon", and if there are any flaws to be exploited, they may figure it out and bypass the defenses. They'll spend time looking at that one, and trying to activate it directly, which they would not spend on the others (cause they know what they do).

FWIW, my guess at how long the entrance remains open is several weeks. I'd guess that it times itself to when monsters respawn, which Oona says happens every few months. Since she's not marking calendars exactly, that's likely 10-14 weeks. Team Evil set up camp directly after Girard's gate blew up, and while the comic gives us a poor sense of time, it's probably a month or more to resolve the whole Durkula thing, and another week to travel to the north pole. That leaves at least 5 weeks, minus however much longer than my estimate it took for the Durkula arc, to hit the fastest respawn timer of 10 weeks. In short, once it's open, it's open.

In this specific case, yes. But if we do assume that the light in each dungeon starts some restocking process, and the "few months" estimate is accurate, then that window might be much more narrow under normal circumstances. Let's say there are 100 doors. Let's also say that our adventuring party clears out one dungeon per day, then rests. That means that the first dungeon will have been "empty" for 100 days before we clear the last. Which means that the "few months" time period has passed, and it may be restocked now, the light turns off, and we don't get to the final dungeon. Standard approach to dungeons like this would result in *never* finding the final dungeon. You'd have to clear dungeons faster than you might prefer in order to do this "normally".

Of course, in this case, they are speed rushing this using walls of force to avoid fighting the monsters, so... Not so good.

My best guess is that is was first initially built, then later "build up" with multidimensional stone. Like, maybe they laid the foundation/tunneled the caves first, then cam back and added some stone to the astral plane; between doing the plumbing and the insulation.

Remember that the original rift was on the surface. The gate around that rift therefore must be in the same location. So "built up" is somewhat accurate.

Assuming the swapovers are actually portalling the explorers to dungeons all over the world, (far easier to do than to create infinitely restocking dungeons in multidimensional space within Monster Hollow,) I speculate that she will sic them on Xykon while he is inside a dungeon, then break the swapover so it doesn't bring anyone back to Monster Hollow. Allowing them to blow up some dungeon on the other side of the world beats blowing up the gate and it's defenses.

It's kind of a tomato tomahtoe thing, but it makes more sense for the actual dungeons to be located in the hallow area itself (and also built within the multidimensional stone), but with each dungeon having a swapover "endpoint" that is located in/near some nest of powerful monsters somewhere else in the world. It's a heck of a lot easiter to build just a tunnel and a swapover in 100 remote locations, than to build 100 dungeons in those same locations (also presumably in very close proximity to high level monsters, cause that's the whole point).

It also allows whatever the trigger is to be located near enough to the hallow to ensure it works.

[Peelee]

I'm going to agree with other posters on this. Xykon hasn't been the actual quest for a long time. Defeating him is still important to Roy, but the actual quest is "prevent the gates from being destroyed and the snarl released and/or the world destroyed".

I know one person who would disagree with you.

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

That being said, i find it baffling how the Astral fortress would in any way be narratively satisfying. It has a sole purpose, to make Xykon think his phylactery is safe. It has already accomplished that. Boom, done, narrative purpose satisfied. No need to ever visit it. The heroes dont care about it. Most of the villains don't care about it. Only Xykon cares about, and even that isnrelated solely to the jewelry Redcloak has, so he will stop caring about it the second he finds out said jewelry is not in it. And if none of the characters care about it, why should we?

[Wintermoot]

I know one person who would disagree with you.
That being said, i find it baffling how the Astral fortress would in any way be narratively satisfying. It has a sole purpose, to make Xykon think his phylactery is safe. It has already accomplished that. Boom, done, narrative purpose satisfied. No need to ever visit it.

For me, as a viewer, I accept that the big final battle of this comic will be between the order and Xykon. However, my emotional climax as a reader will be when the "truth" about the snarl is revealed, because I firmly believe that there is an unknown secret that makes it different than what the gods think it is. That's the big reveal, the big secret, that I see as the final "big boom" endpoint on which the climax will teeter.

So, I think that the story will take us through the final dungeon and through the final gate itself, into the world within where the snarl lives. Only there will the final battle take place either after, or directly before the truth of the snarl is revealed.

So if the snarl was sidetracked and the story taken off to this silly astral fortress for the final battle... yeah... I for one would be disappointed. Obviously Brian333 and I have different emotional expectations for this story. I suspect mine will be closer to reality than his.

[gbaji]

Bah. Meant to include this in my quotes initially:

That's at most 200 at a time, considering there's about 100 doors, there may be far more monsters than that.

Worse, they might come while the Quinton is dealing with a party in front of them, or two parties from might arrive at once.
Even if it worked out perfectly, the Quinton would end up spending all it's time dealing with monsters behind it rather than making progress.

There seems to be some mechanism that prevents the monsters in the dungeons from travelling through the swapovers and out into the hallow. If there were not, they should all be out there roaming around all the time, right?

Unless we just assume that the monsters can't open doors. But the point is moot. Whatever method prevents monsters from wandering out into the hallow at any point that they want to anyway *also* prevents them from chasing Team Evil out into the hallow after they have explored each dungeon. This is not a realistic problem to be solved.

[Yendor]

The fortress is there because there needs to be a reason why Xykon doesn't just escape when he's defeated: because he doesn't think he needs to. If he thinks he can just regenerate where nobody can find him, he can let his body be destroyed. But that's not how it will work, which will lead to his downfall.

[Precure]

The antagonist is not the quest

[Kish]

Is there daylight between your "the quest" and Rich's "the MacGuffin chase"?
Singling out this line, just to make sure my question isn't unclear:

It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness.

[Bacon Elemental]

Devils advocate: so you acknowledge that there was no canyon in the crayon drawings, and that the multidimensional stone was built up, but you reject that it was built up enough to have thr rift by underneath the level that became "ground"? You have a very narrow snd restrictive interpretation of how rock is allowed to be raised up, it would seem.

This is a bizarre post interpretation combined with an uncalled-for insult that I'm not sure how to understand as anything other than a random shot across the bows. The post refers to everyone who says the Gate is clearly a zillion miles down buried in rockcrete, as anyone posting for reasons other than picking a fight for your own amusement would note.

[Larsaan]

The fortress is there because there needs to be a reason why Xykon doesn't just escape when he's defeated: because he doesn't think he needs to. If he thinks he can just regenerate where nobody can find him, he can let his body be destroyed. But that's not how it will work, which will lead to his downfall.

Or even more simply, the fortress is just there to show that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak with his phylactery anymore, further highlighting the cracks in Team Evil.

[HalfTangible]

The antagonist is not the quest

... Yeah, they kinda are. Most plots are about either stopping the antagonist or making them stop antagonizing you.

In this case, killing Xykon is the biggest part of this quest, because his goal endangers the entire world. The second being convincing Redcloak to use a 9th level slot on fixing the rift, which they can't do so long as Xykon remains both alive and active.

[Lumix19]

I mean, can we not all agree that most plotlines encompass all three vital elements?

1.) The "actors" (or PCs in this case) who participate in, observe, and enjoy the story,

2.) The "villains" (or GM NPCs) who naturally oppose the PCs, serving as obstacles and foils to engender conflict, and,

3.) A "prop" (or McGuffin) that serves as an important item, object, goal, or person which lacks the agency and volition of the PCs or NPCs. In most stories the McGuffin is such that both sides must have some incentive to pursue it and come into conflict over it.

If the "prop" that is the Gates/Snarl were to vanish from the story, you arguably wouldn't have a story. Roy would still have a strong motivation to pursue and destroy Xykon, but Xykon can barely remember who he is and would have no reason to be in this story at all except as yet another foe for Roy to defeat.

Likewise, if Xykon were to be struck down by the gods in the next comic, the story would have to either shift to a new antagonist (perhaps the IFCC or some other foe), or it would have to come to an end.

"Props" might occupy a less visible and important role if there are strong interpersonal reasons for conflict, and thus story, between protagonists and antagonists. But even in those cases props usually have some role to play simply because both PCs and NPCs often need something to exercise agency upon to demonstrate their status as characters.

NPCs or PCs who too frequently exercise their agency upon each other run the risk of diminishing each other's status by robbing each other of agency.

[gbaji]

The antagonist is not the quest

Darnit! You stole my response. Literally... verbatum. Sheesh!

... Yeah, they kinda are. Most plots are about either stopping the antagonist or making them stop antagonizing you.

In this case, killing Xykon is the biggest part of this quest, because his goal endangers the entire world. The second being convincing Redcloak to use a 9th level slot on fixing the rift, which they can't do so long as Xykon remains both alive and active.

Except it ceased to be that quite some time ago. The actual threat that the Order is most concerned about is Redcloak using the ritual to hand control to the Dark One to threaten the gods, and the almost certain destruction that will cause. Secondarily is the threat the the gods will respond by destroying the world to prevent this. Next is the threat that the gods will destroy the world if they (the Order) destroy the last gate (to stop threat number 1) and release the snarl. Finally.... waaaaaay down in the "list of things to worry about" is "Xykon gets control of the gate" or (even less of an issue) "Xykon continues to exist so Roy still has to fulfill his blood oath".

Xykon is literally the least significant problem facing the Order. Nothing he's planning on doing rises to the same level of "bad" as the stuff Redcloak is planning. Xykon has already stated that he has no intention of destroying the world. He does his best evil in it. He's only a threat due to the fact that he might get bored one day and destroy the gate (which would trigger some of the same "bad things" that are present automatically in the other scenarios).

The Order's quest started out as "Help Roy destroy Xykon", but has long since expanded into something else entirely. Yes, Xykon is still one of the major antagonists, but he's not actually the objective of the quest anymore. Heck. Xykon isn't even the one actively trying to do something the Order wants/needs to stop. He thinks the ritual will just give him and Redcloack control over the gate, while leaving it intact and in place, presumably so they can learn how to harness it, open it on command (and then close it again), direct the snarl, or whatever. He's wrong, but the point is his actual objectives don't include destroying the world.

We've known since this strip that Redcloak is the real antagonist to this story, and that Xykon is (in theory at least) just a very powerful tool being used by Redcloak to further his plan. I'm curious what the date on that link to the Giant's statement about Xykon is, and how much of that is nullified today and can be left as "the author isn't going to reveal his plot twists ahead of time".

[HalfTangible]

Except it ceased to be that quite some time ago. The actual threat that the Order is most concerned about is Redcloak using the ritual to hand control to the Dark One to threaten the gods, and the almost certain destruction that will cause. Secondarily is the threat the the gods will respond by destroying the world to prevent this. Next is the threat that the gods will destroy the world if they (the Order) destroy the last gate (to stop threat number 1) and release the snarl. Finally.... waaaaaay down in the "list of things to worry about" is "Xykon gets control of the gate" or (even less of an issue) "Xykon continues to exist so Roy still has to fulfill his blood oath".

Xykon is literally the least significant problem facing the Order. Nothing he's planning on doing rises to the same level of "bad" as the stuff Redcloak is planning. Xykon has already stated that he has no intention of destroying the world. He does his best evil in it. He's only a threat due to the fact that he might get bored one day and destroy the gate (which would trigger some of the same "bad things" that are present automatically in the other scenarios).

The Order's quest started out as "Help Roy destroy Xykon", but has long since expanded into something else entirely. Yes, Xykon is still one of the major antagonists, but he's not actually the objective of the quest anymore. Heck. Xykon isn't even the one actively trying to do something the Order wants/needs to stop. He thinks the ritual will just give him and Redcloack control over the gate, while leaving it intact and in place, presumably so they can learn how to harness it, open it on command (and then close it again), direct the snarl, or whatever. He's wrong, but the point is his actual objectives don't include destroying the world.

We've known since this strip that Redcloak is the real antagonist to this story, and that Xykon is (in theory at least) just a very powerful tool being used by Redcloak to further his plan. I'm curious what the date on that link to the Giant's statement about Xykon is, and how much of that is nullified today and can be left as "the author isn't going to reveal his plot twists ahead of time".

What you describe is not a change in goal ("kill xykon and his minions") but a change in stakes (from "keep the countryside safe and fulfill Roy's blood oath" to "keep the world from being destroyed at best and unmade at worst").

Yes, the stakes are now the world, but the goal of the campaign since comic #13 has been "kill Xykon." Ultimately the quest is still "Kill Xykon", because not only is his goal the Gates, but Durkon and Minrah just went and proved that Redcloak is not going to discuss fixing the rifts so long as "work with Xykon" is still his winning hand. We also know that the gods will just destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate, so yes, the goal is still "Kill Xykon".

Yes, during the Godsmoot and Durkula arc (probably has a name by now but I don't know it) we took a detour to buy the group more time, but the point is that even with that done the goal is still kill Xykon. Roy has repeatedly pointed out in this comic that any plan to keep the Gates safe starts with kill Xykon. Any plan that involves leaving the Lich alive is suspect at best simply because of how much of a threat he poses ie indiscriminate murder.

[Fish]

The story has always been “help Roy defeat Xykon because _______.” What has changed over the course of the story are the stakes.

At first, it was “because Roy’s father made a vow, which meant he couldn't get into Celestia; and so Roy hired the others to help.”

But Roy found out he could get into Heaven without fulfilling the oath. That undercut those stakes.

Then it was “because Shojo told them about a threat.”

But Shojo died and Azure City went down the tubes and we started to see the Snarl for ourselves.

Then it was “because they found out the gods would destroy the world if they didn’t.”

It’s the same as the Luke Skywalker journey. He wanted to be like his father. His specific approach changed and his reasons slightly changed as the story went along, and the stakes got bigger, but it was a personal journey first.

As regards the astral fortress, the only reason it exists (in my opinion) is so Xykon knows when Redcloak betrays him. It wouldn’t matter where Xykon thought the phylactery was — in an expired case of tartar sauce in the walk-in cooler at a Long John Silver Dragon’s in Cliffport — as long as we knew that Xykon knew when it happened.

[Yendor]

Yes, the stakes are now the world, but the goal of the campaign since comic #13 has been "kill Xykon." Ultimately the quest is still "Kill Xykon", because not only is his goal the Gates, but Durkon and Minrah just went and proved that Redcloak is not going to discuss fixing the rifts so long as "work with Xykon" is still his winning hand. We also know that the gods will just destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate, so yes, the goal is still "Kill Xykon".

And if they somehow win Redcloak over, the goal is still "kill Xykon", because he's not going to just let Redcloak walk away. As long as Xykon exists, he's a threat.

[danielxcutter]

The story has always been “help Roy defeat Xykon because _______.” What has changed over the course of the story are the stakes.

At first, it was “because Roy’s father made a vow, which meant he couldn't get into Celestia; and so Roy hired the others to help.”

But Roy found out he could get into Heaven without fulfilling the oath. That undercut those stakes.

Then it was “because Shojo told them about a threat.”

But Shojo died and Azure City went down the tubes and we started to see the Snarl for ourselves.

Then it was “because they found out the gods would destroy the world if they didn’t.”

It’s the same as the Luke Skywalker journey. He wanted to be like his father. His specific approach changed and his reasons slightly changed as the story went along, and the stakes got bigger, but it was a personal journey first.

As regards the astral fortress, the only reason it exists (in my opinion) is so Xykon knows when Redcloak betrays him. It wouldn’t matter where Xykon thought the phylactery was — in an expired case of tartar sauce in the walk-in cooler at a Long John Silver Dragon’s in Cliffport — as long as we knew that Xykon knew when it happened.

Nitpick, the stakes did get to world-scale once Roy had Shojo and Eugene explain the situation to him; he decided to take on the duty despite how he hated the two of them being manipulative like this because of how important it was. It's the archetypal Good motivation really; the Deva said flat out that there's no real argument on that axis of his alignment.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't get all up in polearms about it.

OK, I won't.

As regards the astral fortress, the only reason it exists (in my opinion) is so Xykon knows when Redcloak betrays him. It wouldn’t matter where Xykon thought the phylactery was — in an expired case of tartar sauce in the walk-in cooler at a Long John Silver Dragon’s in Cliffport — as long as we knew that Xykon knew when it happened.

Please let me know when your first novel or novella is published. You are one of the few people on the internet that I've encountered who can make text sing to me.

[arimareiji]

The Adelie is also Antarctican, residing on the pack ice in winter, and the coastline in summer. Two other species nest at Antarctica - the chinstrap, and the gentoo penguin.

In nature, the object is generally "eat and reproduce faster than you get eaten by other critters who want to reproduce". Being able to retreat to a place where you can stick out your tongue and say "Think you can survive trying to come and get me here? Yeah, I didn't think so." is quite an advantage.

Not by real-world chemistry. Calcium, in the form of compounds (i.e. Ca²⁺ ions), is already as oxidized as it can be. Phosphate isn't going to be oxidized by anything less than fluorine. Hit Xykon with a fluorine elemental and you might get somewhere; calcium fluoride is pretty stable. Or one of the alkali-metal elementals; I think that sodium metal will reduce calcium ions, and I'm certain that any of the other metals in that series (potassium, rubidium, cesium) will. As will francium, though if you've collected enough francium to make a visible chemical reaction, you have other problems to address.

In general, when it comes to harming people, I'd count chlorine as a poison rather than as an acid. For damage to objects, counting it as an acid is probably the closest.

Fwiw in a Wikipedia world, one chemistry major (biochem concentration) agrees with you. Not to mention your name sounds like it belongs in a chemistry lab. (^_~)b

I suspect the problem is how chemistry terms often get illegitimate-child-ized in the real world: the "chlorine" (Cl₂) used to disinfect is "hypochlorous acid" (HOCl, often generated by NaOCl + H₂O -> NaOH + HOCl), "salt" means "only sodium chloride" (NaCl), and for the love of FSM don't get me started on "salty". (^_~)

It also may be because hydrochloric acid does a number on bones, but that's due to the fact it's a really strong acid rather than the presence of chloride ions per se. Last and I'd guess least among the possibilities, calcium metal is high enough in the activity series to react strongly with water... so its reaction with strong acid (such as hydrochloric acid) is pretty vigorous. (Large chunks of calcium metal can even generate enough heat to ignite the hydrogen bubbles being produced by Ca + 2H⁺ -> Ca⁺⁺ + H₂.)

[danielxcutter]

Please let me know when your first novel or novella is published. You are one of the few people on the internet that I've encountered who can make text sing to me.

And now I'm jealous.

[Fish]

Nitpick, the stakes did get to world-scale once Roy had Shojo and Eugene explain the situation to him...

Yes. I would have to go back and review the Shojo story, but I think they were focused on what might happen if they released the Snarl. They only later learned that the gods would destroy the world themselves if Xykon even got close enough to try.

Please let me know when your first novel or novella is published. You are one of the few people on the internet that I've encountered who can make text sing to me.

Funnily enough, I've written a few that I'm trying to get published...

[danielxcutter]

Shojo did mention the gods destroying the world was a possibility back with the Scribblers during the trial, actually. Roy was only shocked at the Godsmoot because he only thought that'd be a concern when the last Gate got destroyed - he'd already been aware that it could happen, just not that soon.

[brian 333]

All of which is just raising the stakes on their quest to...

wait for it...

Kill Xykon.

Motivation is why the character does what he does.

Xykon killed Dad's mentor, so Dad made a blood oath and died before he could fulfill it.

Gotta kill Xykon.

Xykon is trying to capture a gate so he can rule the world.

Gotta kill Xykon.

The gates keep the whole world from unraveling.

Really gotta kill Xykon.

Redcloak can help repair the gates, but won't even try as long as Xykon is around.

Crap, now we have to kill Xykon without killing Redcloak!


None of these new developments have changed the goal. It was, since Elan's first exposition, a quest to kill Xykon. The developments have served to increase the scale of the problem and the cost of failure. It went from a personal problem, (delayed entry to the afterlife,) to a global scale problem, (the world being destroyed.) But the story always was, and still is, Roy's quest to kill Xykon.

[InvisibleBison]

All of which is just raising the stakes on their quest to...

wait for it...

Kill Xykon.

So what do you think Roy would do if Xykon was killed by someone else? I certainly don't think he would go home. Killing Xykon is a goal, but it's not the only goal. And it's not the most important goal, either. If through some contrived circumstance the Order was forced to choose between solving the gate situation and killing Xykon, I have no doubt they'd let Xykon live.

[Peelee]

All of which is just raising the stakes on their quest to...

wait for it...

Kill Xykon.

Motivation is why the character does what he does.

Xykon killed Dad's mentor, so Dad made a blood oath and died before he could fulfill it.

Gotta kill Xykon.

Xykon is trying to capture a gate so he can rule the world.

Gotta kill Xykon.

The gates keep the whole world from unraveling.

Really gotta kill Xykon.

Redcloak can help repair the gates, but won't even try as long as Xykon is around.

Crap, now we have to kill Xykon without killing Redcloak!


None of these new developments have changed the goal. It was, since Elan's first exposition, a quest to kill Xykon. The developments have served to increase the scale of the problem and the cost of failure. It went from a personal problem, (delayed entry to the afterlife,) to a global scale problem, (the world being destroyed.) But the story always was, and still is, Roy's quest to kill Xykon.

Exactly. We can even approach this from the other way. Lets say the heroes save the world from imminent destruction. They still need to deal with the villains. However, lets say the heroes dealt with the villains. They no longer need to save the world from imminent destruction, since the only reason that was on the table was because of the villains.

The villains are the quest. Saving the world is ancillary. Its a pretty damned big ancillary, but its still ancillary.

[Kish]

Exactly. We can even approach this from the other way. Lets say the heroes save the world from imminent destruction. They still need to deal with the villains. However, lets say the heroes dealt with the villains. They no longer need to save the world from imminent destruction, since the only reason that was on the table was because of the villains.

I think that's an oversimplification at best.

"Deal with" is vague, but: Let's say that, in the next strip, Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona were all destroyed by some means.

No, wait, actually.

Let's say that, over the next five strips, Rich wrote the most exciting climactic battle anyone on this forum could imagine. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona are all destroyed by the Order in that battle, with help from Serini and the paladins.

Nothing else that's been established gets resolved. Whether the Dark One can be convinced to help seal the rifts, whether another new quiddity will come into existence without requiring the existing gods to compromise with anyone, any doubts Redcloak might have had before Roy's sword separated his head from his body, how long the current world will exist before the Snarl tears down the sole remaining Gate, how long the gods will risk finding out the answer to the previous question before they scrap the current world...it's not related to Xykon and only very peripherally related to a larger "the villains," unless "the villains" is actually meant to center the Snarl, which would mean this goes directly against what Rich said.

And yet I feel confident in saying there is not the slightest chance Rich would actually end the comic there.

[Peelee]

I think that's an oversimplification at best.

It was intended to be as simplified as possible, yes. Also, i do not think Xykon being destroyed will be the last page of the comic.

[Fish]

I think that's an oversimplification at best.

…Let's say that, over the next five strips, Rich wrote the most exciting climactic battle anyone on this forum could imagine. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona are all destroyed by the Order in that battle, with help from Serini and the paladins.

…And yet I feel confident in saying there is not the slightest chance Rich would actually end the comic there.

If Rich were to be so crass as to drop all of the ongoing threads for the sake of pushing that ending represented by your own oversimplification, then … well, yes. He could end it there. The threat to the world has been neutralized. Roy’s final speech bubble could say, “Now the gods won’t destroy my world! And PS, dad: up yours!”

It wouldn’t be satisfying because that’s not the quality of writing we have come to expect from the Giant, but everything after the destruction of Xykon is epilogue. Any tale that spins out after the climax can adhere to the theme (surpassing one’s parents, teamwork, redeeming the mistakes of the past, or whatever) but the mainspring driving the plot tension is gone. Things can still happen. That alone doesn’t mean the “plot” as such goes on.

Often in storytelling the climax happens very close to the end, to reduce the period of anticlimax. Luke blows up the Death Star, resolving four plot arcs at once (Luke’s desire to follow in his father’s footsteps, Han’s selfishness, Leia’s struggle to deliver the plans to the Rebellion, and Tarkin’s desire to destroy said Rebellion). Stuff continues to happen — R2 gets repaired, medals are given out — but that doesn’t mean the story was about the medals.

Likewise, The Lord of the Rings was about the destruction of the Ring. The film version of the story ends shortly thereafter, winding up the various remaining threads. The final scenes hew closely to the theme (“there and back again,” the sacrifices of war), but they are not themselves the “plot.”

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade puts the finding of the Holy Maguffin farther from the end, because it gives time to play out its main theme: father and son. Indy rescues his dad, his dad rescues him back, they show each other respect, and curtain. It wouldn’t have mattered what it was they were trying to save as long as it motivated these things to happen.