OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[lio45]

It's not only strictly a raising of the stakes, some stuff fundamentally changes along the way as well. Xykon isn't the only problem anymore, and defeating him at this point doesn't suffice to satisfy the need for a decent ending.

I'll slightly modify Kish's example to make it an even better one IMO: imagine that in the next strip, Redcloak and Xykon have a major disagreement, and Redcloak prevails, eliminating Xykon Tsukiko-style (RC can be quite badass when he wants...) and continuing The Plan by himself (figuring after he secures the control of the Gate, he'll work on finding someone to cast the arcane half of the ritual).

So... there you have it: unarguably, 1) Xykon's gone and 2) The heroes aren't done.

[Peelee]

It's not only strictly a raising of the stakes, some stuff fundamentally changes along the way as well. Xykon isn't the only problem anymore, and defeating him at this point doesn't suffice to satisfy the need for a decent ending.

I'll slightly modify Kish's example to make it an even better one IMO: imagine that in the next strip, Redcloak and Xykon have a major disagreement, and Redcloak prevails, eliminating Xykon Tsukiko-style (RC can be quite badass when he wants...) and continuing The Plan by himself (figuring after he secures the control of the Gate, he'll work on finding someone to cast the arcane half of the ritual).

So... there you have it: unarguably, 1) Xykon's gone and 2) The heroes aren't done.

We can also modify this by having the ghost od Fruit Pie the Sorcerer come back, slay all the gods, turn Xykon and Redcloak into action figures, and plan to use the last Gate and the snark within to create an entirely new fruit-swirl concoction, the likes of which the world has never seen before, with such flavor as to dissolve all who bask in its fruity goodness, thus being an existential threat to reality itself.

Imean, if we're going to present hypotheticals that go against what the author has said and aren't going to happen, and all.

[Fish]

So... there you have it: unarguably, 1) Xykon's gone and 2) The heroes aren't done.

But you could end it there, you see. Redcloak can go spiraling off into the darkness in his TIE fighter after his Plan has (temporarily) blown up. The gods could come down and say “Thank you, heroes, for saving the day. Let us rebuild the Gates so when Redcloak returns with a new sorcerer, he will not find it so easy.”

Still, given that this is Roy’s personal journey to get respect from his father and to deliver on the plot points of the starmetal sword and the oath and so on, it wouldn’t be a very satisfying story if Redcloak killed Xykon, or if Xykon was destroyed by O-Chul or the Snarl or the MiTD, while Roy was making coffee at home in his +2 Pajamas of Fire Protection. Xykon breaks a hip and falls down some stairs into a Gate to the netherworld; cue curtain call. Good story, you figure?

The bad guy lives to fight another day. That doesn’t tell you anything about whether the overall story must necessarily continue, or if it must not have actually been the “real” plot. Stories have many smaller plots that get built up and knocked down in mini-climaxes until the main story reaches its peak.

It could be an Act II plot change. These happen as well. One way is by reversal: Superman (1978) stops the bomb from destroying Hackensack NJ, but fails to stop the bomb in California. Now instead of his plot being done, his goals shift to stopping the damage caused by the missile. Or it could take the form of amplification: in The Lord of the Rings, the battle at Helm’s Deep was a battle to survive the orcs; but an even bigger battle looms at Minas Tirith. Or it could be development: in Star Wars the goal was to deliver the plans to the Princess; they did that, and now they have to use the plans.

It could go either way. Plots do that. It is not irrevocably one thing or the other. Just because one can imagine a new thing for the heroes to do, or a way to extend the story, doesn’t mean the goalposts have moved. It’s a new goal. What was the plot of The Avengers movie, then? Loki was defeated (but he comes back in later movies). So it wasn’t actually about defeating Loki?

[Peelee]

What was the plot of The Avengers movie, then?

Thats a good question, actually. It was so forgettable that i cant even answer this question.

[Laurentio III]

"[something something absolutely offensive to Redcloak and to common sense]"
"Oh, damn. I don't even know anymore why I stick with such a childish fool!"
"Because only I can cast the arcane part of the ritual... loser."
"Actually, I could."
"What? Since when!?"
"I read it when Tsukiko showed it to me. It's pretty simple when you get the syllables right."
"..."
"This must be my birthday, because I just received a gift."

[littlebum2002]

I think that's an oversimplification at best.

"Deal with" is vague, but: Let's say that, in the next strip, Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona were all destroyed by some means.

No, wait, actually.

Let's say that, over the next five strips, Rich wrote the most exciting climactic battle anyone on this forum could imagine. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona are all destroyed by the Order in that battle, with help from Serini and the paladins.

Nothing else that's been established gets resolved. Whether the Dark One can be convinced to help seal the rifts, whether another new quiddity will come into existence without requiring the existing gods to compromise with anyone, any doubts Redcloak might have had before Roy's sword separated his head from his body, how long the current world will exist before the Snarl tears down the sole remaining Gate, how long the gods will risk finding out the answer to the previous question before they scrap the current world...it's not related to Xykon and only very peripherally related to a larger "the villains," unless "the villains" is actually meant to center the Snarl, which would mean this goes directly against what Rich said.

And yet I feel confident in saying there is not the slightest chance Rich would actually end the comic there.

Yes, that's what the dénouement is for, to wrap up all the dangling plot threads after the main conflict has been resolved.

In Avengers Endgame, Thanos is killed and the Snap is reversed 22 minutes before the end of the movie. Does that mean trying to kill Thanos and reverse the snap wasn't the primary conflict, since things happened in the movie after that moment?

Are you saying that the central conflict of a work is the thing resolved on the very last page, or in the very last minute of a movie?

[gbaji]

What you describe is not a change in goal ("kill xykon and his minions") but a change in stakes (from "keep the countryside safe and fulfill Roy's blood oath" to "keep the world from being destroyed at best and unmade at worst").

Yes, the stakes are now the world, but the goal of the campaign since comic #13 has been "kill Xykon." Ultimately the quest is still "Kill Xykon", because not only is his goal the Gates, but Durkon and Minrah just went and proved that Redcloak is not going to discuss fixing the rifts so long as "work with Xykon" is still his winning hand. We also know that the gods will just destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate, so yes, the goal is still "Kill Xykon".

Yes, during the Godsmoot and Durkula arc (probably has a name by now but I don't know it) we took a detour to buy the group more time, but the point is that even with that done the goal is still kill Xykon. Roy has repeatedly pointed out in this comic that any plan to keep the Gates safe starts with kill Xykon. Any plan that involves leaving the Lich alive is suspect at best simply because of how much of a threat he poses ie indiscriminate murder.

I think there's some confusion here. Maybe it's just semantics. Maybe it's more. When I say "goal" or "quest", I'm speaking about "achieving a desired outcome". That's very different from the antagonist, or obstacles, that need to be ovecome to achieve that goal. It's quite possible that I completely disagree with The Giant on story structure, or maybe just definitions of objects contained within a story, or perhaps it's folks getting really caught up on the word "antagonist" and conflating that with "quest/goal", or The Giant was just hiding his future plot twists, or maybe it's something else entirely.

The "goal" was to help Euegene continue on to his afterlife. Killing Xykon is not the goal. It's a means to that goal. Heck. Initially Xykon wasn't really the antagonist (other than merely "existing" I suppose).

When they learned about the gates and the snarl, the goal became "prevent TE from controlling the gates". That lumped Redcloak in with the list of antagonists/obstacles, but killing/defeating Redcloak and Xykon is not an end to itself. It's a means to an end. When they learned about the gods potentially destroying the world, it became "prevent the world from being destroyed". When they further learned about "The Plan", it also became "prevent TDO from controlling the gate". But all of those are ultimately about "make the world safe". That's admittedly a bit of a sliding scale thing, and we can get more and more vague as we move from specific courses of action to "ultimate goals". But what we define as "the quest" is somewhere in between. It's the specific thing we're trying to achieve.

And even Roy has acknowledged here that killing Xykon is secondary to "protecting the gates", and "saving the world", and a list of other "bad things that need to be prevented".

I may take my car into the shop because it's not working. My objective isn't "repair the car". My objective is "be able to drive a car where I want/need". The current method to do that is to take my car to the shop and get it repaired. I could alternatively purchase a new car. Or I could decide that I don't need a car to get places, and use uber and/or the bus. The "goal" is to be able to travel places, not actually "repair the car". Repairing the car is just a method to achieve that goal. Similarly, "killing Xykon" is not the actual objective. It's a means to that objective. A pretty darn firm means, don't get me wrong, but just a means. And I'm 99.9% certain that the comic strip wont end without his destruction, but still...

If Rich were to be so crass as to drop all of the ongoing threads for the sake of pushing that ending represented by your own oversimplification, then … well, yes. He could end it there. The threat to the world has been neutralized. Roy’s final speech bubble could say, “Now the gods won’t destroy my world! And PS, dad: up yours!”

It wouldn’t be satisfying because that’s not the quality of writing we have come to expect from the Giant, but everything after the destruction of Xykon is epilogue. Any tale that spins out after the climax can adhere to the theme (surpassing one’s parents, teamwork, redeeming the mistakes of the past, or whatever) but the mainspring driving the plot tension is gone. Things can still happen. That alone doesn’t mean the “plot” as such goes on.

If the ritual is completed, and TDO gains control of the gate, and then Xykon is destroyed, is the "quest" completed?
If Xykon is destroyed, but Redcloak is still around, looking for a replacement spell caster to complete the ritual, is the "quest" completed?
If Xykon is destroyed, but the last gate is destroyed during the fight, is the "quest" completed?

Clearly "destruction of Xykon" is not the actual trigger event for "we've succeeded in our quest". The only thing killing Xykon actually accomplishes is that Euegene gets to move on. That's it. And it puts a crimp on TDOs plan. The quest has changed since the start. It's now morphed into "protect the world from the snarl, and (ideally) find a way so that the gods don't have to keep destroying the world over and over". The story wont be "over" until that condition has been met. And Xykon's destruction or lack of destruction has very little to do with that (well, except that he's kinda in the way).

Often in storytelling the climax happens very close to the end, to reduce the period of anticlimax. Luke blows up the Death Star, resolving four plot arcs at once (Luke’s desire to follow in his father’s footsteps, Han’s selfishness, Leia’s struggle to deliver the plans to the Rebellion, and Tarkin’s desire to destroy said Rebellion). Stuff continues to happen — R2 gets repaired, medals are given out — but that doesn’t mean the story was about the medals.

Sure. But let's recall that the "objective" in the first SW film wasn't actually "destroy the death star". It was "rescue the princess". Which later turned into "prevent the princess and all her rebel friends from being wiped out". Which yeah, necessitated "destroying the death star". It's also not a great analogy since the death star was the exact thing that was threatening them, and the exact thing they obtained the plans for, and the exact thing the princess was captured over, and they needed to deal with to save the say.

Xykon is more like Darth Vader in this story. A major obstacle/antagonist, but killing him was not required. Redcloak and "the plan" is the death star in this story, not Xykon.

Likewise, The Lord of the Rings was about the destruction of the Ring. The film version of the story ends shortly thereafter, winding up the various remaining threads. The final scenes hew closely to the theme (“there and back again,” the sacrifices of war), but they are not themselves the “plot.”

Well. Technically, it was about defeating Saruon and making Middle Earth safe for the mortal races to thrive in so the more powerful beings could finally leave it to them. The destruction of the one ring was required to destroy Sauron and end the threat. Again though, not a great example, because there's just one "enemy" driving the whole thing. In OotS, Xykon is just one part of TE, and just one half of those required for the ritual that is the real threat here (and arguably the "lesser half", since the bearer of the crimson mantle is required, but any powerful enough arcane caster can do the other half). He's the half that they'll almost certainly have to actually destroy, wheras Redcloak may be able to be talked down, but that doesn't make killing Xykon the actual objective. It's a step along the way. A big step, and likely a necesary step. But killing him alone doesn't solve the problems they are actually dealing with.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade puts the finding of the Holy Maguffin farther from the end, because it gives time to play out its main theme: father and son. Indy rescues his dad, his dad rescues him back, they show each other respect, and curtain. It wouldn’t have mattered what it was they were trying to save as long as it motivated these things to happen.

Um... So finding the grail wasn't the objective, right? Even though they thought so initially. This is actually the best analogy, since it's a case where they start out thinking they're doing one thing, and along the way realize it was really about doing something else entirely. Roy has finally grasped this in this story as well. The real objective is to save the world. That's more important than his family's personal grudge against Xykon. Now, I do happen to believe that both will be resolved, but the actual objective here isn't just "kill Xykon" anymore. It hasn't been for a long time. It just took this long for Roy to admit it. Heck. Even back when they were in Azure city, Roy made the decision to help, not out of a desire to complete his father's quest, but because it was the right thing to do. But back then, he still believed that this was just a matter of Xykon making himself more powerful by gaining control of a gate. Now that he knows the real stakes, that calculation has completely changed.

Roy has literally been presented with a hypothetical where if Xykon continuing to exist were necessary to "save the world", "repair the gates", etc, would he do it. And his answer was "yes". That should really answer the question right there.

[Bacon Elemental]

In my opinion, the fact that Xykon's defeat is clearly a key part of victory for the Order doesn't change the fact that their quest is "Save world from Snarl" not "Kill lich" just because "Kill lich" is a necessary part of the plan.

[HalfTangible]

In my opinion, the fact that Xykon's defeat is clearly a key part of victory for the Order doesn't change the fact that their quest is "Save world from Snarl" not "Kill lich" just because "Kill lich" is a necessary part of the plan.

Except that the Snarl is only a problem because Xykon wants it and will kill anyone who gets in his way to get it.

[InvisibleBison]

Except that the Snarl is only a problem because Xykon wants it and will kill anyone who gets in his way to get it.

That's not completely accurate. The Snarl is an immediate problem because the gods will destroy the world rather than let Xykon get his hands on the last gate, but even after Xykon is defeated the Snarl will still be a threat eventually; even if the last gate isn't in any danger, the rifts that are no longer sealed by gates will eventually let the Snarl out and force the gods to destroy the world. The Order will want to do something to deal with that long-term threat, should the elimination of Team Evil occur in a way that doesn't fix it (ie, Redcloak helping the gods to make a 4-quiddity patch that will hold indefinitely).

[Fish]

When they learned about the gates and the snarl, the goal became "prevent TE from controlling the gates". That lumped Redcloak in with the list of antagonists/obstacles, but killing/defeating Redcloak and Xykon is not an end to itself. It's a means to an end.

This is where we get into the semantics of what the “real” objective is. As I stated earlier, I believe it takes the form, not of “do X,” but “do X because Y.”

Roy would not be trying to stop Xykon (at least not in this way) if Xykon were not threatening the world. Roy would not be trying to save the world (in this way) if Xykon weren’t threatening it. It is the combination of the villain and the villain’s motivation that makes the goal. Heroes in this type of story are, by some definition, antagonists. They are not driving the plot; they are reacting to it. You restate this here:

And even Roy has acknowledged here that killing Xykon is secondary to "protecting the gates", and "saving the world", and a list of other "bad things that need to be prevented".

Roy would save the world without destroying Xykon if that were an option. But since the world is threatened by Xykon, Xykon must be stopped. Since Xykon is very hard to convert, subdue or imprison, we readers assume “kill,” but it’s not a requirement. Stopping Xykon is the X to the world-destroying Y. It is the lock which must not be opened, by a key which must not be allowed to do so.

Sure. But let's recall that the "objective" in the first SW film wasn't actually "destroy the death star". It was "rescue the princess".

The real plot of Episode IV was for Luke to join the Rebellion and become a Jedi like his father — at least if we use your method and let the hero describe his goals for us. Destroying the Death Star saves the Rebellion. Luke reacts to the villains who are driving the story by acting in accordance with his goals.

Um... So finding the grail wasn't the objective, right?

Exactly. Indy says so himself:

“You’ve got the wrong Jones, Mr Donovan. Why don’t you try my father?”
“We already have. Your father is the one who’s missing.”

Indy never wanted the grail in and of itself, except as a tool to save his father or to impress the old man (except for one brief scene where he’s trying to grab it out of the chasm). The whole film is about Indy’s issues with his father. The exact nature of Henry Jones’ obsession could be anything, so long as it causes Indy to want to save him (twice) and impress him.

[Kish]

We can also modify this by having the ghost od Fruit Pie the Sorcerer come back, slay all the gods, turn Xykon and Redcloak into action figures, and plan to use the last Gate and the snark within to create an entirely new fruit-swirl concoction, the likes of which the world has never seen before, with such flavor as to dissolve all who bask in its fruity goodness, thus being an existential threat to reality itself.

Imean, if we're going to present hypotheticals that go against what the author has said and aren't going to happen, and all.

Indeed. It goes against what the author has said and isn't going to happen, because it was wholly inaccurate when brian 333 repeated "kill Xykon" a bunch and summarized his assertions with "But the story always was, and still is, Roy's quest to kill Xykon."

From an outside view, I'll say Xykon is the main villain (and have, many times). But if Roy's eyes had remained as fixed on him as brian's apparently are, that would say something very bad about Roy. He even said to Serini recently that he would, in theory, be up for helping Xykon if somehow that resulted in the best deal for the most people.

[brian 333]

Let's flip this, then, since all the 'nuh-uh' posts have Xykon dying first, and proceed with, 'Then what?'

What if Redcloak is turned, the rifts are all sealed, and goblins have recognition from all three pantheons as equal stakeholders in the world social order.

Would the story be resolved, even if Xykon is not destroyed?

In my opinion, destroying Xykon makes all the rest trivially easy. Xykon being un-alive makes all the rest impossible.

The story is not, 'Save the world.' That is what is at stake if The Order fails to complete its quest to destroy Xykon.

[InvisibleBison]

Let's flip this, then, since all the 'nuh-uh' posts have Xykon dying first, and proceed with, 'Then what?'

What if Redcloak is turned, the rifts are all sealed, and goblins have recognition from all three pantheons as equal stakeholders in the world social order.

Would the story be resolved, even if Xykon is not destroyed?

Yes, it would. Xykon is, narratively speaking, just a larger-scale and less meta-aware Tarquin. Both of them appear to be central to the comic for the period of time where they're around, but in actuality aren't essential to what's really going on. Tarquin became irrelevant the moment the Order flew away and left him behind, and in this hypothetical you're describing Xykon becomes irrelevant once the Order resolves the Gate situation. Now it's true that in your hypothetical Xykon would still be out there causing problems, but in the actual comic Tarquin is also still out there causing problems, and it doesn't mean he matters or is preventing the story from being resolved by being undefeated.

[Kish]

I would point out that it doesn't matter. What brian caricatures as "all the nuh-uh posts" aren't opposing an assertion that destroying Xykon is one of the protagonists' important goals; they're opposing a repetitive "kill Xykon...kill Xykon...kill Xykon" assertion that it's the only relevant one, what the story is about, and everything else can be swept into "raising the stakes of killing Xykon."

I think there is zero chance that Xykon will not be destroyed near the end of the comic, but that's not because one can ignore everything that's been revealed about goblins and quiddities.

(I even think the Tarquin comparison is overly generous to Xykon; Rich has given multiple side characters extremely personal reasons to hate Xykon but never a member of the Order. Roy's biggest issue with Xykon that's at all personal, rather than the impersonality of "I am Lawful Good hero, he's sadistic ultra-Chaotic Evil epic lich who might be the most powerful villain in the entire world" is that Xykon doesn't remember his name.

Yes, I am aware that "you killed these two people I never met who were important to my father!" is also on Roy's radar; I'm saying it's less personal than the name thing.)

[HalfTangible]

That's not completely accurate. The Snarl is an immediate problem because the gods will destroy the world rather than let Xykon get his hands on the last gate, but even after Xykon is defeated the Snarl will still be a threat eventually; even if the last gate isn't in any danger, the rifts that are no longer sealed by gates will eventually let the Snarl out and force the gods to destroy the world. The Order will want to do something to deal with that long-term threat, should the elimination of Team Evil occur in a way that doesn't fix it (ie, Redcloak helping the gods to make a 4-quiddity patch that will hold indefinitely).

The Snarl will not be a threat because A) Redcloak is still alive and thus can cast the 9th level spell, and B) I remind you that the gates can all be rebuilt so long as at least one of them remains standing. The Order has a powerful arcane caster and a powerful divine caster. Even if they don't get Redcloak's help patching up the holes, they can patch up the rifts and get things settled for the time being.

The only reason the Snarl is a potential threat right now is that Xykon is gunning for it. That's it. Once he is dead, the rest does become trivially easy narratively.

[InvisibleBison]

The Snarl will not be a threat because A) Redcloak is still alive and thus can cast the 9th level spell, and B) I remind you that the gates can all be rebuilt so long as at least one of them remains standing. The Order has a powerful arcane caster and a powerful divine caster. Even if they don't get Redcloak's help patching up the holes, they can patch up the rifts and get things settled for the time being.

The only reason the Snarl is a potential threat right now is that Xykon is gunning for it. That's it. Once he is dead, the rest does become trivially easy narratively.

In regards to A), convincing Redcloak to abandon the Plan and do something else is the very definition of "not trivial". In regards to B), V and Durkon are high-level, but they're not epic-level, and the gates are created through epic magic. I think it's hugely unlikely that either of them will reach 17th level before the end of the story, let alone 21st, both because of the Giant's remarks about the story-breaking power of ninth-level spells and also because there's unlikely to be enough time or encounters for them to do so.

[HalfTangible]

In regards to A), convincing Redcloak to abandon the Plan and do something else is the very definition of "not trivial".

Redcloak is going for the Gate because he thinks he has the winning hand. If he loses that hand, and Durkon comes back to him with the same story/negotiation (preferably with V and/or Roy there to help explain things like quiddity), which he's definitely going to do, it's much easier.

I'm sorry, but the goal started with "kill Xykon" and that remains the most difficult part of this entire story.

In regards to B), V and Durkon are high-level, but they're not epic-level, and the gates are created through epic magic. I think it's hugely unlikely that either of them will reach 17th level before the end of the story, let alone 21st, both because of the Giant's remarks about the story-breaking power of ninth-level spells and also because there's unlikely to be enough time or encounters for them to do so.

1) All they really need to do is grind, which is narratively boring and wouldn't be covered.
2) They're about to gain a lot of EXP fighting Redcloak and Xykon.
3) Again, the only reason they are short on time is because Xykon is going for one of the Gates. If he's out of the way, they lose that time crunch.
4)

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Xykon has Lirian and Dorukan - the original crafters of the Gates - trapped in a Soul Gem... although in retrospect that might've been destroyed when he was thrown into Dorukan's gate. Maybe. Seems like a dangling plot thread at least.

[Provengreil]

The only problem with this is that there must be some means to open the final dungeon that can't be bypassed. Any physical opening could be spoted and examined (and almost certainly would given that most "normal" parties would find backstage and explore it at some point). Any special opening or teleportation device sitting around where someone could see it presents a potential hole in the security. A more likely option is that the swapovers now all take you to the final dungeon rather than the individual dungeons. The assumption being that you have "cleared them all", so now all the entrances take you to the next location.

If you can prevent explorers from finding the final dungeon without running the gauntlet, you can use whatever technique you open the FD with twice, and the second one is for you. If the swapovers themselves are the answer, perhaps have one in the back that TPs you to an empty room until the FD is open.

If you're starting from the assumption that any entrance backstage will be cheesed but the main activation method somehow can't, then you're never going to buy into this.

In this specific case, yes. But if we do assume that the light in each dungeon starts some restocking process, and the "few months" estimate is accurate, then that window might be much more narrow under normal circumstances. Let's say there are 100 doors. Let's also say that our adventuring party clears out one dungeon per day, then rests. That means that the first dungeon will have been "empty" for 100 days before we clear the last. Which means that the "few months" time period has passed, and it may be restocked now, the light turns off, and we don't get to the final dungeon. Standard approach to dungeons like this would result in *never* finding the final dungeon. You'd have to clear dungeons faster than you might prefer in order to do this "normally".

Of course, in this case, they are speed rushing this using walls of force to avoid fighting the monsters, so... Not so good.

Team Evil was up to...what, 4 or 5 doors per night when MITD was tricking them into doing extras? They'd been doing enough per day, for long enough, that they'd outright forgotten how many they were doing per day at the start and had to try to remember. In other words, they were comfortable going for 2-3 per day at least. That's 100 doors in about 40 days, maybe 50 if they weren't rushing at all. Unless our example of 100 doors is seriously low, or Oona's few months estimate is seriously high, they'd have at least 2 weeks to challenge the FD.

Team evil is numbering doors now so it's possible The Giant will actually let us know how many doors there actually were by putting the last one on panel, but I doubt we'll ever hear an exact timer.

[KorvinStarmast]

"[something something absolutely offensive to Redcloak and to common sense]"
"Oh, damn. I don't even know anymore why I stick with such a childish fool!"
"Because only I can cast the arcane part of the ritual... loser."
"Actually, I could."
"What? Since when!?"
"I read it when Tsukiko showed it to me. It's pretty simple when you get the syllables right."
"..."
"This must be my birthday, because I just received a gift."

Best post in the thread.

Let's flip this, then, since all the 'nuh-uh' posts have Xykon dying first, and proceed with, 'Then what?'

What if Redcloak is turned, the rifts are all sealed, and goblins have recognition from all three pantheons as equal stakeholders in the world social order.

Would the story be resolved, even if Xykon is not destroyed?

In my opinion, destroying Xykon makes all the rest trivially easy. Xykon being un-alive makes all the rest impossible.

The story is not, 'Save the world.' That is what is at stake if The Order fails to complete its quest to destroy Xykon.

I find the lack of mention of the IFCC, throughout this latest diversion in this thread, disturbing.
That have had the heck foreshadowed out of them.
They represent a plot twist that comes on line in the vein of
"just when you thought you had the fastball figured out, here's a knuckle ball at 80 mph"

[HalfTangible]

I find the lack of mention of the IFCC, throughout this latest diversion in this thread, disturbing.
That have had the heck foreshadowed out of them.
They represent a plot twist that comes on line in the vein of
"just when you thought you had the fastball figured out, here's a knuckle ball at 80 mph"

As far as we know their goal is "destructive, unnecessary conflict". The order beats them by ending the conflict over the gates. Which brings us back to the discussion we're already having.

They're a complication, not a goal.

[InvisibleBison]

Redcloak is going for the Gate because he thinks he has the winning hand. If he loses that hand, and Durkon comes back to him with the same story/negotiation (preferably with V and/or Roy there to help explain things like quiddity), which he's definitely going to do, it's much easier.

If you think Redcloak's reaction to Xykon being destroyed would be "Oh well, I guess the plan I've spent my entire life pursuing, have been instructed to keep working on by my god, and

Spoiler: SoD

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murdered my brother in order to further

isn't going to work out, I suppose I'll try something else" and not "Time to go back to Gobbotopia and see how high level the browncloaks have gotten", we have fundamentally different understandings of his character.

I'm sorry, but the goal started with "kill Xykon" and that remains the most difficult part of this entire story.

Sure, killing Xykon was the original goal, and it's still the hardest obstacle the Order faces, but that doesn't mean it's the goal of the story. As the Order has learned more about what's going on and the stakes involved, their goals have changed. Killing Xykon used to be the ultimate goal of the Order (or at least Roy), but now it's just an instrumental goal, something they're trying to do in order to make it possible to accomplish their actual ultimate goal of neutralizing the threat of the rifts

1) All they really need to do is grind, which is narratively boring and wouldn't be covered.
2) They're about to gain a lot of EXP fighting Redcloak and Xykon.
3) Again, the only reason they are short on time is because Xykon is going for one of the Gates. If he's out of the way, they lose that time crunch.
4)

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Xykon has Lirian and Dorukan - the original crafters of the Gates - trapped in a Soul Gem... although in retrospect that might've been destroyed when he was thrown into Dorukan's gate. Maybe. Seems like a dangling plot thread at least.

1) Maybe, assuming they're actually able to find high-enough level encounters. The evidence on that is somewhat mixed, but I do think it's mostly a question of how long it would take. If V and Durkon can gain the ability to make new gates five years from now, but the Snarl is going to break free in six months, grinding isn't going to work.
2) Not enough to gain four levels, even if it were possible to gain more than one level per adventure, which it isn't (although I'd be astonished if the Giant hasn't forgotten about and/or decided to ignore that rule).
3) No, there's also the threat of the Snarl bursting out of the rifts and rampaging across the world, which could happen at any moment.
4)

Spoiler: SoD

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Dorukan and Lirian's bodies have almost certainly been destroyed by now - if nothing else, we know they didn't make it out of Dorkuan's castle with Team Evil, so they presumably were destroyed when it exploded if they had managed to survive that long. In any event, the Order doesn't have their corpses, which means they'd need either wish or true resurrection to bring them back to life. And of course before they did that they'd need to obtain the soul gem, which may very well be stashed away in Xykon's astral fortress or some other hidey-hole, assuming it too wasn't destroyed when Dorukan's castle exploded. And even before that they'd need to know that the soul gem existed, which IIRC they do not know and have no reasonable chance of discovering, unless they happen to find it on Xykon's corpse. So while in theory resurrecting Dorukan and Lirian could be a way to build new gates without V and Durkon doing it themselves, in practice there's so many obstacles in the way that I strongly doubt it will be even attempted.

[brian 333]

This is where we get into the semantics of what the “real” objective is. As I stated earlier, I believe it takes the form, not of “do X,” but “do X because Y.”

Roy would not be trying to stop Xykon (at least not in this way) if Xykon were not threatening the world. Roy would not be trying to save the world (in this way) if Xykon weren’t threatening it. It is the combination of the villain and the villain’s motivation that makes the goal. Heroes in this type of story are, by some definition, antagonists. They are not driving the plot; they are reacting to it. You restate this here:


Roy would save the world without destroying Xykon if that were an option. But since the world is threatened by Xykon, Xykon must be stopped. Since Xykon is very hard to convert, subdue or imprison, we readers assume “kill,” but it’s not a requirement. Stopping Xykon is the X to the world-destroying Y. It is the lock which must not be opened, by a key which must not be allowed to do so.


The real plot of Episode IV was for Luke to join the Rebellion and become a Jedi like his father — at least if we use your method and let the hero describe his goals for us. Destroying the Death Star saves the Rebellion. Luke reacts to the villains who are driving the story by acting in accordance with his goals.


Exactly. Indy says so himself:

“You’ve got the wrong Jones, Mr Donovan. Why don’t you try my father?”
“We already have. Your father is the one who’s missing.”

Indy never wanted the grail in and of itself, except as a tool to save his father or to impress the old man (except for one brief scene where he’s trying to grab it out of the chasm). The whole film is about Indy’s issues with his father. The exact nature of Henry Jones’ obsession could be anything, so long as it causes Indy to want to save him (twice) and impress him.

I was going to post this, but you said it better. Thank you.

[Sir_Norbert]

As far as we know their goal is "destructive, unnecessary conflict". The order beats them by ending the conflict over the gates. Which brings us back to the discussion we're already having.

They're a complication, not a goal.

I would be extremely surprised if the IFCC have no further appearances except to bow out once the conflict over the gates is over. The author has set up a mystery about what their goals are and what their plans are, and has specifically teased us by making it clear that they have two remaining calls on V's soul. I won't go in for the cliche "Rich is too good a writer to X", which has been used to justify all manner of things, some reasonable and some ridiculous. I'll just state that I, personally, will be disappointed if this all comes to nothing.

[HalfTangible]

If you think Redcloak's reaction to Xykon being destroyed would be "Oh well, I guess the plan I've spent my entire life pursuing, have been instructed to keep working on by my god, and

Spoiler: SoD

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murdered my brother in order to further

isn't going to work out, I suppose I'll try something else" and not "Time to go back to Gobbotopia and see how high level the browncloaks have gotten", we have fundamentally different understandings of his character.

Do you think Redcloak is under the impression that recruiting a browncloak is going to work when he has the option to insist that the only reason this is working is because he forced the gods to the negotiating table?

Redcloak is far more interested in being right and making all of the sacrifices he's made worth it than he is in getting the Plan done with someone he trusts, or he wouldn't be working with Xykon

Sure, killing Xykon was the original goal, and it's still the hardest obstacle the Order faces, but that doesn't mean it's the goal of the story. As the Order has learned more about what's going on and the stakes involved, their goals have changed. Killing Xykon used to be the ultimate goal of the Order (or at least Roy), but now it's just an instrumental goal, something they're trying to do in order to make it possible to accomplish their actual ultimate goal of neutralizing the threat of the rifts

You say killing Xykon isn't the goal and then proceed to outline precisely why killing Xykon is the goal

1) Maybe, assuming they're actually able to find high-enough level encounters. The evidence on that is somewhat mixed, but I do think it's mostly a question of how long it would take. If V and Durkon can gain the ability to make new gates five years from now, but the Snarl is going to break free in six months, grinding isn't going to work.
2) Not enough to gain four levels, even if it were possible to gain more than one level per adventure, which it isn't (although I'd be astonished if the Giant hasn't forgotten about and/or decided to ignore that rule).
3) No, there's also the threat of the Snarl bursting out of the rifts and rampaging across the world, which could happen at any moment.
4)

Spoiler: SoD

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Dorukan and Lirian's bodies have almost certainly been destroyed by now - if nothing else, we know they didn't make it out of Dorkuan's castle with Team Evil, so they presumably were destroyed when it exploded if they had managed to survive that long. In any event, the Order doesn't have their corpses, which means they'd need either wish or true resurrection to bring them back to life. And of course before they did that they'd need to obtain the soul gem, which may very well be stashed away in Xykon's astral fortress or some other hidey-hole, assuming it too wasn't destroyed when Dorukan's castle exploded. And even before that they'd need to know that the soul gem existed, which IIRC they do not know and have no reasonable chance of discovering, unless they happen to find it on Xykon's corpse. So while in theory resurrecting Dorukan and Lirian could be a way to build new gates without V and Durkon doing it themselves, in practice there's so many obstacles in the way that I strongly doubt it will be even attempted.

1) The monsters they've encountered here are high enough level to help an epic-level Lich gain EXP and while you might say that they're Serini's friends you don't need to kill things to gain EXP from them.
2) See 1.
3) See Loki at the godsmoot. When the final gate breaks they'll have about 10 minutes. Which heavily implies that they have until the Gate breaks to get this done.
4)

Spoiler

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V has Wish, see them trying to get Zzt'dri's houseruled Fly spell back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. All they need to do is hit that level.

This is also a very evident Chekov's gun, much like Xykon's suggestion to eat Redcloak and spit out the amulet he wears.

None of what you've outlined is all that big of an obstacle given all they really need to do is find the soul gem.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would be extremely surprised if the IFCC have no further appearances except to bow out once the conflict over the gates is over. The author has set up a mystery about what their goals are and what their plans are, and has specifically teased us by making it clear that they have two remaining calls on V's soul. I won't go in for the cliche "Rich is too good a writer to X", which has been used to justify all manner of things, some reasonable and some ridiculous. I'll just state that I, personally, will be disappointed if this all comes to nothing.

More or less how I see the set up with both the two further V kidnappings, and the "artifact" and "the vessel" and Sabine trifecta mentioned here.
I don't see Rich wasting good foreshadowing like that.

To put it a little differently, Rich is playing fair.
He's providing a set up with a bit of detail that hints toward something that surprises the party.
It has to surprise the reader a little bit to get that "aha, good one!" reaction when the reader, who has had the seed planted with "something's up, but I am not sure what" gets to enjoy the Big Reveal.

There's a little bit of irony involved in all that since Xykon's early, book 1 "Big Reveal" for MitD fizzled badly.

[gbaji]

That's not completely accurate. The Snarl is an immediate problem because the gods will destroy the world rather than let Xykon get his hands on the last gate, but even after Xykon is defeated the Snarl will still be a threat eventually; even if the last gate isn't in any danger, the rifts that are no longer sealed by gates will eventually let the Snarl out and force the gods to destroy the world. The Order will want to do something to deal with that long-term threat, should the elimination of Team Evil occur in a way that doesn't fix it (ie, Redcloak helping the gods to make a 4-quiddity patch that will hold indefinitely).

Exactly. The Order is now aware of a much bigger issue than just "powerful bad guys want to find something that makes them more powerful". The threat of the snarl does not disappear if they just kill Xykon. They must find a way to seal the rifts with a 4th color. That's their actual quest now. And sure, killing Xykon helps clear the way towards doing that, but that just makes Xykon an obstable, not an objective.

This is where we get into the semantics of what the “real” objective is. As I stated earlier, I believe it takes the form, not of “do X,” but “do X because Y.”

Sure. But in this case, X (killing Xykon) no longer actually achieves Y (sealing the rifts forever). We could make this argument when it was "kill Xykon to free my fathers soul". We could even still make it when it was "kill Xykon to prevent him from gaining access to a gate" (but now Redcloak was involved, so it was already a little more than just that). But that relationship no longer exists once the objective moves to "seal the rifts". Xykon is only one step in the process of doing that, and killng him is no guarantee that you succeed.

Roy would not be trying to stop Xykon (at least not in this way) if Xykon were not threatening the world. Roy would not be trying to save the world (in this way) if Xykon weren’t threatening it. It is the combination of the villain and the villain’s motivation that makes the goal. Heroes in this type of story are, by some definition, antagonists. They are not driving the plot; they are reacting to it. You restate this here:


Roy would save the world without destroying Xykon if that were an option. But since the world is threatened by Xykon, Xykon must be stopped. Since Xykon is very hard to convert, subdue or imprison, we readers assume “kill,” but it’s not a requirement. Stopping Xykon is the X to the world-destroying Y. It is the lock which must not be opened, by a key which must not be allowed to do so.

Except that, as I've pointed out several times now, it's not Xykon who is threatening the world. It's Redcloak and the ritual. Also, arguably, the Order, given their propensity for destroying gates. Xykon has never once expressed any desire to use the gates to just release the snarl and destroy the world (well, unless he gets really bored). It's also unclear if the gods will destroy the world just because TE (or especially just Xykon) gain control of a gate. It's only the "last gate is destroyed releasing the snarl" or "we vote at the godsmote to destroy right now" that are known "world is destroyed" conditions. Arguably, killing Redcloak and leaving Xykon alone also "saves the world".

Again: The world isn't actually being threatened by Xykon. It's only being threatened by Redcloak. There is absolutely nothing that Xykon can do to destroy the world without Redcloak being involved. And said destruction would occur because Redcloak knows the ritual doesn't do what Xykon thinks it does. Xykon is the unwitting dupe being used to fulfill Redcloaks plan (or TDOs plan really). Well, somewhat unwitting. I suspect that Xykon knows this already and is planning a double cross at some point, but again, if that's the case, then Xykon is still "not a threat to the world". He has absolutely no intention to perform a ritual that will hand over control of the gate to TDO, so it can be used to threaten the gods in the outer planes. That's not his plan. That's Redcloak's plan.

Take that plan away, and take Redcloak out of the equation, and nothing Xykon does can result in the world ending.

The Snarl will not be a threat because A) Redcloak is still alive and thus can cast the 9th level spell, and B) I remind you that the gates can all be rebuilt so long as at least one of them remains standing.

No. The snarl will still be a threat because:

A) Redcloak is still alive, and can go find another high level arcane caster to complete the ritual. If you haven't figured out a way to stop him, or better yet convince him to help seal the rifts, nothing you do with Xykon matters. That's why Redcloak is the key, and not Xykon.

B) Even if you defeat Redcloak as well as Xykon, the rifts have not been sealed, so eventually it'll get out and the world will end (probably have a few years at most).

C) Even if you do that *and* go around rebuilding the gates, the issue with the snarl is still a problem. New rifts will form, and the world will end (maybe have a few decades, maybe a century, but it will happen).


The only thing that stops this is stopping Redcloak *and* finding a way to seal the snarl in permanently. Currently, the only way we know to do that is to use the fourth color represented by TDO, which means we have to also convince Redcloak to help. Again. Redcloak is the key here, not Xykon.

The Order has a powerful arcane caster and a powerful divine caster. Even if they don't get Redcloak's help patching up the holes, they can patch up the rifts and get things settled for the time being.

For the time being. I'll grant you that it's possible that the story will end with this, but I doubt it.

The only reason the Snarl is a potential threat right now is that Xykon is gunning for it. That's it. Once he is dead, the rest does become trivially easy narratively.

That's simply not true. The only reason the snarl is a potential threat is because Redcloak has tricked Xykon into casting the arcane part of a ritual that will grant TDO the power to move the gate and threaten the outer planes (and the gods therein). Xykon "gunning for it" does nothing. Xykon "gaining control of it" does nothing. Only "Xykon and Redcloak completing the ritual" (or "someone destroys the last gate to stop the ritual") causes a doomsday scenario.

If the ritual actually did what Redcloak told Xykon it does, the world would not be in danger of destruction either. "Some people in the world" would, but not the actual whole world being destroyed. Xykon thinks that the gates merely hold a powerful force and can be used to control it. He has no plans beyond "make myself even more powerful than I already am" and "take over the world". Redcloak is the one embarking on a plan that will put the entire world on the brink of destruction, not Xykon. Again, I suspect that Xykon knows more about what the gates and the snarl really are and is playing dumb for some yet undisclosed reason, but still. It's not Xykon thrreatening to destroy the world or the gods. It's Redcloak (well, TDO actually).

[InvisibleBison]

Do you think Redcloak is under the impression that recruiting a browncloak is going to work when he has the option to insist that the only reason this is working is because he forced the gods to the negotiating table?

Redcloak is far more interested in being right and making all of the sacrifices he's made worth it than he is in getting the Plan done with someone he trusts, or he wouldn't be working with Xykon

I'm not at all sure what your point is here. Yes, Redcloak has convinced himself that the only way to make his sacrifices worthwhile is to bring the Plan to fruition. I don't see how you get from there to him being perfectly willing to abandon the plan in favor of something that doesn't get anything for the goblins and takes away any possibility of actually accomplishing the Plan should Xykon be destroyed.

You say killing Xykon isn't the goal and then proceed to outline precisely why killing Xykon is the goal

Um, no, I proceeded to outline why killing Xykon is not the goal but something the Order seeks to do in order to facilitate achieving their goal. I really don't understand how you could read what I wrote any other way. Are we operating under a different definition of "the goal" or something?

[Precure]

Is there daylight between your "the quest" and Rich's "the MacGuffin chase"?
Singling out this line, just to make sure my question isn't unclear:

One is Doylist while the other one is Watsonian, "in universe" and "out of universe" reasons for a plot progression.

[Fish]

Sure. But in this case, X (killing Xykon) no longer actually achieves Y (sealing the rifts forever).

That Y is not a “because.” You have formulated it this way to reassert (not prove) your thesis.

Destroy Xykon because he is trying to get to the last Gate.
Seal up the rifts forever because the Snarl threatens the world (as do the gods).

If the Snarl no longer threatened the world (maybe because the Snarl built a backup planet in its chaotic center?) sealing up the rifts would not be necessary. It is not a goal unto itself.

Except that, as I've pointed out several times now, it's not Xykon who is threatening the world. It's Redcloak and the ritual.

Redcloak can’t do the ritual without Xykon. And we have long since known that the gods intend to destroy the world long before the pair of them even get a chance to cast their ritual spell. At this point it’s a distinction without much meaning.

Here is a hypothetical: suppose Roy kills Xykon and destroys the phylactery. Redcloak would not be turned and had to be killed. Suddenly, Dorukan and Lirian pop out of Xykon’s soul gem, followed by the reappearance of the ghost of Soon, and they agree to re-seal the Gates, only better this time. The gods agree to do something blah blah blah to stop the Snarl. Would that be a satisfying ending?

Or this: Redcloak turns, Xykon is killed, and Redcloak makes some spell to move the rifts to the astral fortress where no one can get at them again. Or Redcloak appeals to the Dark One to do that for us. Would that satisfy?

In my view, either ending would be perfectly fine, even though it is not the heroes doing the heavy lifting of re-sealing the rifts. Because sealing the rifts is not personal. Roy has a personal and emotional attachment to the Xykon plot that he doesn’t have with the generic save-the-world plot. It’s bound up in Roy’s personality and his family and his sense of self-worth and his journey to the afterlife and his choice to be a fighter and his big green sword and his special lich-killing feat and his name. Roy’s journey would be complete even if someone else showed up and sealed the rifts, but not fully realized if someone else turned up to beat Xykon. The rifts are a loose end that has to be tied up, but not by Roy personally. We could see the plan in place to seal said rifts, and fade to black. We don’t even need to see it happen, if we are reasonably assured it would.

Now imagine the two above scenarios, but instead Xykon gets away. Roy’s journey with his father issues is unresolved. Still satisfying?

I think not.

Luke’s journey would not be complete if someone else joined the Rebellion, became an Jedi, and blew up the Death Star. He would still be restless and unsatisfied and pining after his absent father. Indy’s journey would not be complete if someone else found the Grail as a way to make amends with his father. Indy would still bear a grudge over his father’s lifelong obsessions. Frodo’s journey would not be complete if someone else destroyed the Ring — which is exactly what did happen, which is one reason that it is satisfying that Frodo never recovered. Had Frodo just shrugged and tossed the One Ring into the Cracks of Doom, he wouldn’t have earned the melancholy ending he got.