OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

By doing nothing she was slowing them down. They were grinding away at the dungeons and getting nowhere, especially after MitD started Xing doors which had never been explored. Her plan was working, why risk messing that up?

Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.

[brian 333]

Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.

We do not know what else Serini had in store for powerful invaders. She only mentioned her friends as her 'If all else fails' backup plan.

She also says if she has time she could restock and reset individual dungeons, which could potentially keep powerful enemies busy forever before they get to the final dungeon. That comment, to my knowledge, has not been examined on this forum.

The theme here appears to be that because Serini did not have a hard stop her defense is not only guaranteed to fail, but it is stupid. Want to know what stupid was? Why didn't Xykon go to the nearest Good village, round everybody up, and make them go one-by-one to touch Dorukon's sigil? He could have defeated that gate in days.

Serini's delay tactics and concealing her presence combine to create a virtually infinite defense. No, it is not a hard stop. But a delay that could potentially work for years?

Until Durkon's arrival, Serini's defense was working. Perhaps what Redcloak is doing now would have been done eventually. We don't know.

Guess what else we don't know? What did Serini plan to do before she called on her last line of defense? Because everything we know about Serini leads us to think that she thinks like ogres onions in layers. To insist that Serini's fallback position was her only option ignores everything we know about her. To insist that because she hasn't spoken of any other option means she has none ignores that she said she had at least one option, and it ignores that we know that she has certainly not told us everything.

Serini's defense may be better than a hard stop because a hard stop can make the opponent consider methods of defeating it. Serini's defense could potentially delay opponents indefinitely, forcing them to run and rerun the dungeons and never get any closer to the end.

Now, if anything short of a perfect defense is stupid, consider:
Lirian's defense was defeated by a forest fire.
Dorukon's dungeon was defeated by making Dorukon mad.
Soon's gate was defeated by breaking one paladin.
Girard's gate was defeated by one spell.

So far, Serini was doing as well as any of the other defenders, and potentially could have continued for an unknown time into the future.

There are a lot of things I'd have done differently if it had been my campaign, but I'm not the author. And my story probably wouldn't have captured the attention of even the majority of posters on this forum. So, every time I consider what I'd do differently, I'm compelled to admit that I do not yet know what The Giant has in mind, but at every turn he has surprised, amuzed, and amazed me.

I think Serini has crafted a fantastic defense. Given time, she could act to keep it going for years to come. It isn't perfect, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to create the conditions required for Rich to tell his story. In which case, it could be a line of ducks crossing the road or a toll booth in the middle of the desert that requires someone to go back for a bag of dimes.

TLDR: Serini's defense is not perfect. (The rules of her universe may not allow that anyway because all dungeons are made to be defeated.) But it may be that Serini has plans to make her defense last indefinitely. We don't know, because we don't know everything Serini knows.

[Larsaan]

Because everything we know about Serini leads us to think that she thinks like ogres onions in layers.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to need some examples of what you mean by this, because so far she's been one of the most blunt and straightforward characters in this comic (her personal traumas notwithstanding). With the sole exception of getting Lien to drop her guard, she's yet to tell a lie when cursing and shouting would do.

As for all the other stuff... Serini has said she never expected the defenses to hold out forever, she's said her plan for dealing with real threats was to call in her old friends, and she's said she can't do anything about Xykon. I have no reason to disbelieve her.

[BloodSquirrel]

We do not know what else Serini had in store for powerful invaders. She only mentioned her friends as her 'If all else fails' backup plan.

"There's a bunch of stuff that we don't know/should assume to be true without evidence" has been expected to do an awful lot of work to justify Serini's decision making for a very long time now.

Could there be a super-rigorous final obstacle? Sure, there could be, but I don't see a reason to put it as a high probability. None of Serini's schemes so far have shown that depth of consideration. Her plan to break up her team and never speak again, then rely on them as her last line of defense? Not super well-thought out. Her plan to give the paladins and the Order an amnesia potion and then just sort of hope that all of them give up on their mission and never question the giant hole in their memories? Couldn't have possibly worked. Thinking that letting someone as volatile as Xykon get control over the gate was a good idea? Blindingly optimistic. Refusing to communicate and cooperate with the Order when we now know for a fact that they couldn't have possibly accidentally brought the fight to the gate? Not a great plan.

There's just no reason at all to believe that Serini is playing a subtle long game here where her defenses are stronger than she has personally stated them to be to her own allies. I'm sure the final dungeon will be the toughest, but if she was so confident that whatever is in there can stop Xykon, why did she think the Order stood a chance at getting to the gate, and why does she talk and act as if she doesn't expect them to?

Dorukon's dungeon was defeated by making Dorukon mad.
Soon's gate was defeated by breaking one paladin.
Girard's gate was defeated by one spell.

Having to resort to this kind of hyperbole is never a sign that you've got a strong argument on your hands.

It's kind of astonishing how over-invested people are in propping up Serini as a secret genius. She's a highly flawed character in a webcomic full of highly flawed characters. She's from a team of highly flawed characters whose inability to overcome them seems to be a major thematic point, especially as it ties into their gates' defenses. Her flaws have been very deliberately chosen and used to tell a story that has been more interesting for how it has thrown additional obstacles int the Order's path.

It's okay for Serini to be someone who is very, very clever, but also kind of dumb.

[Ruck]

Considering what the two of them gave up during Start of Darkness, I find this extremely unlikely. Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy has been thoroughly discussed here, and as for Xykon, he might humiliate, maim, or even try to mind control Redcloak, but he's not going to kill him as long as he needs him for the Ritual.

The only piece of information that would realistically change that is that the Plan won't actually benefit him, but considering Redcloak has been keeping that secret since the very first time they met, I don't see why that would pop out here, of all places.

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently. And the fact that Redcloak switched out Xykon's phylactery with a fake. And the fact that Xykon knows Redcloak knows he was going behind his back to figure out what the ritual actually does. And the fact that Redcloak let slip he has magical means of tracking Xykon, which immediately raised Xykon's suspicions, even though he seemed to put them aside.

Those raise the possibilities that Xykon will be suspicious that Redcloak is hiding other things from him, like said phylactery. Or that Xykon may think Redcloak is plotting against him in response to going behind his back and choose some kind of preemptive action. Just for a couple of examples-- and each step down these roads further increases the mistrust and gives each of them more reason to be suspicious of the other and more reason to act. Not to mention the possibility of MitD figuring out a way to egg them on or further drive a wedge between them.

A lot has changed since Start of Darkness, especially in the time since the phylactery was initially lost.

[brian 333]

Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.

"There's a bunch of stuff that we don't know/should assume to be true without evidence" has been expected to do an awful lot of work to justify Serini's decision making for a very long time now.

Could there be a super-rigorous final obstacle? Sure, there could be, but I don't see a reason to put it as a high probability. None of Serini's schemes so far have shown that depth of consideration. Her plan to break up her team and never speak again, then rely on them as her last line of defense? Not super well-thought out. Her plan to give the paladins and the Order an amnesia potion and then just sort of hope that all of them give up on their mission and never question the giant hole in their memories? Couldn't have possibly worked. Thinking that letting someone as volatile as Xykon get control over the gate was a good idea? Blindingly optimistic. Refusing to communicate and cooperate with the Order when we now know for a fact that they couldn't have possibly accidentally brought the fight to the gate? Not a great plan.

There's just no reason at all to believe that Serini is playing a subtle long game here where her defenses are stronger than she has personally stated them to be to her own allies. I'm sure the final dungeon will be the toughest, but if she was so confident that whatever is in there can stop Xykon, why did she think the Order stood a chance at getting to the gate, and why does she talk and act as if she doesn't expect them to?



Having to resort to this kind of hyperbole is never a sign that you've got a strong argument on your hands.

It's kind of astonishing how over-invested people are in propping up Serini as a secret genius. She's a highly flawed character in a webcomic full of highly flawed characters. She's from a team of highly flawed characters whose inability to overcome them seems to be a major thematic point, especially as it ties into their gates' defenses. Her flaws have been very deliberately chosen and used to tell a story that has been more interesting for how it has thrown additional obstacles int the Order's path.

It's okay for Serini to be someone who is very, very clever, but also kind of dumb.

I do not disagree. I don't have enough information to make that call.

But Serini has been playing the long game all along.

1) TE, and everyone else, thought all they had to do was find the right door. Nobody considered they had to open them all.

2) Serini didn't want The Order interfering with her plan because she thought conflict over the gate was more dangerous to the gate than TE.

3) The Order of the Stick is not her ally, and has never been. She has zero reason to trust them, zero reason to believe they can defeat Xykon, and every reason to believe that they are more dangerous to The Gate than Xykon. Or is it your position that the people who purposely destroyed three out of four gates are credible witnesses when they say they won't do it this time?

That she does not trust them is obvious. What leap of logic does it require to believe her when she tells them she is not going to reveal to them her defense plans?

4) But if we are only going on what she said: she said she could restock and reset dungeons. Given time, she could make TE run the gauntlet until they can complete it faster than she can restock... Oh, wait...

5) She correctly identified the presence of The Order as a threat to her gate. Because Durkon announced himself, Redcloak got the false impression that 'The Gods' are trying to stop him, and now is employing a strategy he otherwise was not using, which may result in his finding the final dungeon before Serini can restock and reset.

6) She has never seemed all that worried about TE until this latest strip. She was far more worried about The Order. Was she on TE's side? Has she simply given up and accepted the inevitable? (One would have to ignore everything she has said to hold those opinions.) Or, one could conjecture that she determined that her defense was working to keep TE away from her gate, and there was no reason to panic.

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

[BloodSquirrel]

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

We have been getting new information on a regular basis, to little effect.

How Serini could possibly be playing "the long game" when all of her choices have lead her to where she is now, a position she most certainly does not want to be in, is beyond explaining at this point. It's just a strange article of faith that is requiring more and more counterfactuals to be created with every strip to justify it.

[Precure]

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently.

I don't think he suspect the ritual, yet, he seems to planned to replace Redcloak with Tsukiko, which is why he gave the ritual to her for research.

[Kish]

He gave her the arcane half: the half he can cast himself. Presumably he wasn't planning to replace himself with Tsukiko.

[Precure]

Did Xykon even know that it's not the full ritual? Because he surely didn't tell Tsukiko.

[Kish]

Well, I mean. Even if Redcloak didn't tell him "this is your half of the ritual," presumably he knew he could cast all of it, unless he handed it off to Tsukiko without ever looking at it himself. And whatever causes the creature in the darkness to be able to recognize it as half a ritual at a glance...Xykon has to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana to be able to cast epic spells.

[Larsaan]

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently. And the fact that Redcloak switched out Xykon's phylactery with a fake. And the fact that Xykon knows Redcloak knows he was going behind his back to figure out what the ritual actually does. And the fact that Redcloak let slip he has magical means of tracking Xykon, which immediately raised Xykon's suspicions, even though he seemed to put them aside.

Those raise the possibilities that Xykon will be suspicious that Redcloak is hiding other things from him, like said phylactery. Or that Xykon may think Redcloak is plotting against him in response to going behind his back and choose some kind of preemptive action. Just for a couple of examples-- and each step down these roads further increases the mistrust and gives each of them more reason to be suspicious of the other and more reason to act. Not to mention the possibility of MitD figuring out a way to egg them on or further drive a wedge between them.

A lot has changed since Start of Darkness, especially in the time since the phylactery was initially lost.

Tensions are certainly high within Team Evil right now, this is true. However, they are not higher than when

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Xykon tried to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak, or when Right-Eye tried to kill Xykon.

The former incident established that Xykon will not kill Redcloak until the Plan is completed, because then he'll have turned himself into a lich for nothing. The latter incident established that Redcloak will do, and put up with, virtually anything so long as he gets to use Xykon to complete the Plan. Throughout all of the comic's events, these facts have not changed.

So sure, Xykon might find out about Redcloak's phylactery switcheroo, and if he does he'll probably punish him. He might chop off more body parts, he might massacre the bugbears, he might make RC wear a diaper, he might turn Gobbotopia into a smoking crater... and Redcloak will put up with all of it. But they're not going to kill each other. The only thing that could change that is the reveal that the Ritual doesn't do what Xykon thinks it will, and he doesn't have any spare spellcasters on hand to do that research for him.

Any wedge the MitD could drive between them is a microscopic splinter compared to how much these two hate each other already.

[Liquor Box]

I do not disagree. I don't have enough information to make that call.

But Serini has been playing the long game all along.

1) TE, and everyone else, thought all they had to do was find the right door. Nobody considered they had to open them all.

2) Serini didn't want The Order interfering with her plan because she thought conflict over the gate was more dangerous to the gate than TE.

3) The Order of the Stick is not her ally, and has never been. She has zero reason to trust them, zero reason to believe they can defeat Xykon, and every reason to believe that they are more dangerous to The Gate than Xykon. Or is it your position that the people who purposely destroyed three out of four gates are credible witnesses when they say they won't do it this time?

That she does not trust them is obvious. What leap of logic does it require to believe her when she tells them she is not going to reveal to them her defense plans?

4) But if we are only going on what she said: she said she could restock and reset dungeons. Given time, she could make TE run the gauntlet until they can complete it faster than she can restock... Oh, wait...

5) She correctly identified the presence of The Order as a threat to her gate. Because Durkon announced himself, Redcloak got the false impression that 'The Gods' are trying to stop him, and now is employing a strategy he otherwise was not using, which may result in his finding the final dungeon before Serini can restock and reset.

6) She has never seemed all that worried about TE until this latest strip. She was far more worried about The Order. Was she on TE's side? Has she simply given up and accepted the inevitable? (One would have to ignore everything she has said to hold those opinions.) Or, one could conjecture that she determined that her defense was working to keep TE away from her gate, and there was no reason to panic.

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever" and "I thought... the real threats would be slowed down [until I could ask my friends to rescue me]". If you trust what she has said as well, you will stop asserting that Serini had everything under control before the Order showed up, because that directly contradicts what she actually said.

[halfeye]

The former incident established that Xykon will not kill Redcloak until the Plan is completed, because then he'll have turned himself into a lich for nothing.

He turned himself into a lich to get out of a trap he was stuck in, he had no other means of escape, if he hadn't turned himself into a lich he'd have been stuck there to this day, the choice had nothing to do with the plan.

[danielxcutter]

He did it in pursuit of the Plan. That’s close enough.

[Peelee]

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever".

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”


Anyway. All this talk about how long hers will hold out, when I feel fairly safe in saying they'll last til the end of the world.

[Precure]

Well, I mean. Even if Redcloak didn't tell him "this is your half of the ritual," presumably he knew he could cast all of it, unless he handed it off to Tsukiko without ever looking at it himself. And whatever causes the creature in the darkness to be able to recognize it as half a ritual at a glance...Xykon has to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana to be able to cast epic spells.

Well, as Tsukiko said, he was not educated enough to understand it, as he wasn't even aware that it will teleport the gate.

[brian 333]

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever" and "I thought... the real threats would be slowed down [until I could ask my friends to rescue me]". If you trust what she has said as well, you will stop asserting that Serini had everything under control before the Order showed up, because that directly contradicts what she actually said.

Since I never asserted that was not the case, I do not see how this in any way refutes my position.

What you appear to be saying is that Serini has nothing else. In the first panel of 1278, Haley asks, "Wait, wouldn't someone be able to tackle the dungeons really slowly and eventually beat them all anyway?"
Serini answers, "If I can't replace 'em fast enough? Maybe. But I'd still consider that a win."

So, it appears she did, in fact, have at least one fallback position before calling for help. As long as the opponent goes slow enough to give her time to restock and rearm the dungeons, she can keep them looking forever.

It is not a hard leap of faith to assume she can disable the final trap.
It is not a hard leap of faith to assume she can redirect the final destination. My favorite redirection would be to that plane Not-Thad got sent to.
It is not a hard leap of faith to assume that there are multiple layers between "The Hollow passively stops the bad guys," and, "Make a desperate call for backup from people who swore to defend the world, but who hate each other."

And finally, does Serini look worried to you?

My sister evacuated for a hurricane with her daughter, who is also her insurance agent. My sister was in a panic over the destruction she was seeing on the news. In order to calm her down I said, "Does she look worried?" The person who was primarily responsible for making sure my sister's damages were repaired or compensated said, "Nope. I got this."

If the person in charge panics, it's time to panic. At this time Serini doesn't appear worried. In fact, she appears to me to be doing her best to prevent The Order from interfering. I have to believe she knows her setup better than I do, and if she thinks The Order is more of a problem than TE, I have to assume she knows something I do not.

[Liquor Box]

Since I never asserted that was not the case, I do not see how this in any way refutes my position.

Great, so we agree that Serini's gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever? I just want to be crystal clear we agree on that, before addressing your other points.

[brian 333]

Great, so we agree that Serini's gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever? I just want to be crystal clear we agree on that, before addressing your other points.

That was the final default option, yes. And I have never said otherwise.

So, two questions:

In OotSverse, is there any conceivable method that could potentially hold out forever? If not, then are you not advocating the position that her defense was inferior to an impossible and unachievable perfect theoretical ideal?

Are you seriously dismissing the possibility, (one of which she articulated in the speech bubble prior to the one upon which you are fixated,) that there are potential resolutions which do not involve running for help?

[Liquor Box]

That was the final default option, yes. And I have never said otherwise.

So, two questions:

In OotSverse, is there any conceivable method that could potentially hold out forever? If not, then are you not advocating the position that her defense was inferior to an impossible and unachievable perfect theoretical ideal?

Are you seriously dismissing the possibility, (one of which she articulated in the speech bubble prior to the one upon which you are fixated,) that there are potential resolutions which do not involve running for help?

Question 1:
Yes, a defence that eliminates the attackers does indeed hold out forever against them.

Question 2:
Do you mean replacing monsters? Yes, that might be a possibility against someone who was going really slowly, which is what she says. But I was talking about Team Evil, who has been completing dungeons at quite a brisk pace (several a day) even before summoning that thing.

[Ruck]

Question 1:
Yes, a defence that eliminates the attackers does indeed hold out forever against them.

A series of hundreds (?) of dungeons filled with the mightiest monsters available seems like a pretty good plan in terms of eliminating the attackers, generally speaking.

Although if you have any ideas for a defense system that could do so with more certainty, I'd like to hear them.

[Liquor Box]

A series of hundreds (?) of dungeons filled with the mightiest monsters available seems like a pretty good plan in terms of eliminating the attackers, generally speaking.

Although if you have any ideas for a defense system that could do so with more certainty, I'd like to hear them.

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

[Larsaan]

He turned himself into a lich to get out of a trap he was stuck in, he had no other means of escape, if he hadn't turned himself into a lich he'd have been stuck there to this day, the choice had nothing to do with the plan.

As daniel pointed out, the reason he was in the trap to begin with was because of the Plan. The reason he

Spoiler: SoD

Show

tried to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak was because of the resulting taste loss, and what made him stand down was pointing out that if he killed Redcloak, he'd have done it to himself for nothing.

[brian 333]

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

Or, you know, delaying them until they kill each other.

If Xykon defeated two epic casters who were known to be among the most powerful in the world and Soon's army of ghost paladins, then none of the methods you cite would have worked.

#2 is a particularly dumb idea because of the way tiers of power work in D&D. Plus, they are the idiots responsible for destroying three out of four of the gates, and there is only one left.

Logically, if everything you can possibly do is going to fail, the correct answer is not to die trying. The advantage of delay is that it often allows time to find a solution you never knew existed.

And yes, the delay tactic was working. Theoretically, it can continue to work. The person responsible for the gate's defense seems far less worried than Roy. Or you.

Maybe there is a reason she's not worried. Maybe she knows something. Maybe she has a plan.

[Liquor Box]

Or, you know, delaying them until they kill each other.

We've been over this. They've been together for 30 years without killing each other. There have been various times in the past when tensions have been higher between them, the cracks wider. In terms of boredom they spent six months at Dorukan's gate, compared with two weeks here (where at least they have the distraction of fighting the dungeons). The chance of them spontaneously bursting into internal fight (without prompting from the Order or the paladins) in the few weeks (or even months if we are generous) that they are progressing through Serini's dungeons is like one in ten thousand.

If Xykon defeated two epic casters who were known to be among the most powerful in the world and Soon's army of ghost paladins, then none of the methods you cite would have worked.

#2 is a particularly dumb idea because of the way tiers of power work in D&D. Plus, they are the idiots responsible for destroying three out of four of the gates, and there is only one left.

Logically, if everything you can possibly do is going to fail, the correct answer is not to die trying. The advantage of delay is that it often allows time to find a solution you never knew existed.

Just because they didn't work, doesn't mean they were never going to. Soon's gate didn't work only because the Miko destroyed the gate. After fighting Dorukan, Xykon said it was a near run thing that could have gone either way. The order of the Scribble was Serini's own plan. As for the order, they've actually defeated him before.

So all were a chance. All were much much more likely to defeat Xykon than simply hoping that delaying him a few weeks might cause an internal fight within his part.

And yes, the delay tactic was working. Theoretically, it can continue to work. The person responsible for the gate's defense seems far less worried than Roy. Or you.

Maybe there is a reason she's not worried. Maybe she knows something. Maybe she has a plan.

The people responsible for the defence of the gate are worried (by that i mean the Order, as they have taken responsibility off Serini - her plan is no longer the plan).

As for Serini, I have no idea why you think she's not worried. She clearly is. She's been acting out for the last 100 or so strips. The very first comment we say her make was that existing was nice well it lasted. Since then she's literaly called her opponent unbeatable. I think it's pretty clear she is terrified, and that's why she's behaving so poorly.

[brian 333]

She made that comment after finding the paladins.

She says direct confrontation with Xykon is more dangerous to the gate than doing nothing. What does she know that you don't?

[Liquor Box]

She made that comment after finding the paladins.

She made that comment at a point where she had successfully captured the paladins, with a plan to turn them free with their memories wiped. So a point at which she didn't anticipate them interfering

She says direct confrontation with Xykon is more dangerous to the gate than doing nothing. What does she know that you don't?

When she said that, she didn't know that this was the last gate. So it's more what we, the audience, knew that she didn't.

Anyway, that is beside the point. I think she's acting very worried. You don't. It's a very minor point.

The main point is that she's told us that her gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever.

[Peelee]

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

A flammabale forest is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A castle that is almost entirely reliant on its aging resident wizard is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A city with a common army and a small cadre of paladins is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A ziggurat almost entirely protected by illusions is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

[Liquor Box]

A flammabale forest is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A castle that is almost entirely reliant on its aging resident wizard is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A city with a common army and a small cadre of paladins is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A ziggurat almost entirely protected by illusions is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

If by the second and third of those things you are referring to Dorukan and Soon's defences, then I think you are mistaken. They are both a real challenge for even a serious threat, and they were both a close call for Xykon

Lirian's glade, and Girard's pyramid maybe not so much. But I'd still say more likely to eliminate a serious threat like Xykon than Serini's gauntlet. At least they both had another epic combatant there to oppose the serious threat (instead of an epic character trying and failing to make sure noone else attacks the invaders).

There's a reason for that. All of the above were designed to eliminate serious threats (or in Lirian's case imprison). Serini's gauntlet wasn't - she was relying on calling the cavalry.

Don't take my word for it. Take Serini's.