OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Rinazina]

I wonder which is the refresh period for a speed run.. Because at this point Oona and other bugbears should have already explored all the doors.

[Kancsar]

New comic is up.

Bravo!!! Love this solution of valley as gauntlet and very glad to see V find the solution.

High level Wizards tend to screw up games because of their powerful spells AND their high intelligence making enemy plans transparent and therefore substantially easier to beat (one reason, I think, the villains are a high wisdom Cleric and a high charisma Sorcerer).

[Ruck]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

["Reddie and Bones"?]

Teddy Redbones?

[Doug Lampert]

I would add that, presumably, the only reason the Gate area has an access point is because Serini wants to be able to access it; and she probably doesn't want to be killing all her monsters in that situation.

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.

[Peelee]

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

[Resileaf]

It might very well be that Serini never intended to have a bypass. This is Kraagor's gate after all, not Serini's gate. Why would Kraagor want a shortcut?

[Shale]

Even more ironically the MitD would only have had to do it once - which wouldn’t have been caught out by Wrongeye.

Okay, this is hilarious. He was so close to the perfect plan!

[Ruck]

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Wow, I had just forgotten that people were seriously saying that.

[Malfarian]

New comic is up.

Brilliant as always.

Thank you.
--MAL

[Jasdoif]

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.

Certainly possible....though now I'm wondering how difficult she (in her youth) thought it would be to physically go to each chamber, versus the risk of divination magic revealing the existence of a bypass.

[Duncun]

I wonder which is the refresh period for a speed run.. Because at this point Oona and other bugbears should have already explored all the doors.

I theorize that they have not done all the dungeons. I think the refresh is fast enough that they would be able to do a subset over and over. They would do that instead of having to go to the furthest one away from their camp, because there would be no need. They are only doing it for the food. Why go out of the way?

[Izandai]

THERE'S that 18 (or more) intelligence! V's really been shining this arc. You love to see it.

[Psyren]

They didn't come across Lirian's gate at all, Psyren.

Right, which is why they didn't blow it up, like I said

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Since we're here again...

The fact that all you have to do to reach the FD is clear every dungeon, means that our concerns about the people attacking the dungeons getting stronger by doing so were right. Redcloak is beating the Gauntlet with a single 9th-level spell. Had he arrived there not being able to cast any, he definitely would after a couple of attempts.

(And that's putting aside that we don't even know what the boss monster in the FD is - but given that the lesser dungeons even contain epic magic items, they're likely making whatever it is easier to face.)

[Peelee]

Since we're here again...

The fact that all you have to do to reach the FD is clear every dungeon, means that our concerns about the people attacking the dungeons getting stronger by doing so were right. Redcloak is beating the Gauntlet with a single 9th-level spell.

Im a bit confused here, as I never said they wouldn't get stronger? I said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD. Hell, for all we know she may have painted a door or two herself had MitD not done that, which would fit well with her non-confrontational stance. And Redcloak alrrady arrived with 9th level spells, so unless you want to claim she should have sought him out before, say, the seige of Azure City, im not sure how thats in any way relevant.

And hey, we're still not at the end of the story, maybe she has some other tricks up her sleeve. Because she doesn't seem to be opposed to hindering them, she is opposed to confrontation with them. From anyone. Which does not equate to "helping them".

[Psyren]

Im a bit confused here, as I never said they wouldn't get stronger? I said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD. Hell, for all we know she may have painted a door or two herself had MitD not done that, which would fit well with her non-confrontational stance. And Redcloak alrrady arrived with 9th level spells, so unless you want to claim she should have sought him out before, say, the seige of Azure City, im not sure how thats in any way relevant.

And hey, we're still not at the end of the story, maybe she has some other tricks up her sleeve. Because she doesn't seem to be opposed to hindering them, she is opposed to confrontation with them. From anyone. Which does not equate to "helping them".

My criticism of Serini back then is the effort it took the Order to actually knock some sense into her and get her to realize she needs to help them to stand a chance. I stand by that criticism.

As for Redcloak already having 9ths - sure, but if even Xykon was getting XP from those dungeons, Redcloak definitely was, which makes paying for powerhouse spells like Gate even easier.

[Precure]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

[Peelee]

My criticism of Serini back then is the effort it took the Order to actually knock some sense into her and get her to realize she needs to help them to stand a chance. I stand by that criticism.

Ok? I didnt say anything about your criticism, so it's a bit odd that you're arguing against me because you stand by your criticism.

As for Redcloak already having 9ths - sure, but if even Xykon was getting XP from those dungeons, Redcloak definitely was, which makes paying for powerhouse spells like Gate even easier.

From a mechanical standpoint, sure. From a story standpoint? Doesnt natter at all. Redcloak would have enough XP to cast that spell regardless. Or the XP requirement would be removed entirely. The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

[Metastachydium]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

[Red eyes, take shelter.] THERE IS NO STATUE!

II said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD.

Oh, and that's not true at all. That "objective certainty" hangs on the assumption that Redcloak wouldn't have ever figured out that errors were made (deliberately or otherwise) which, given that he never trusted the lottery method to be effective and told Oona later that the surprising thing would have been nobody screwing up on their team (or screwing it up for them from without), is a huge stretch.

[dancrilis]

The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

Then you are letting the roleplayers win.

Perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if to you want to be on the side of telling stories in fantasy settings or on the side of arguing about rules for fantasy settings.

[Peelee]

Oh, and that's not true at all. That "objective certainty" hangs on the assumption that Redcloak wouldn't have ever figured out that errors were made (deliberately or otherwise) which, given that he never trusted the lottery method to be effective and told Oona later that the surprising thing would have been nobody screwing up on their team (or screwing it up for them from without), is a huge stretch.

And the story is over so we know for a fact she would take no action whatsoever, yes.

ETA:Also disregarding that your first linked comic does not say what you claim it says. "effective" and "efficient" are not synonyms.

[Metastachydium]

And the story is over so we know for a fact she would take no action whatsoever, yes.

Well, we do know that
1. she would have refrained from taking any kind of decisive action, because she told us she would (for perfectly good reasons); and
2. were it not for V, she would have just left Team Evil run away with the initiative while she naps,
so we are on the same page so far as the exact validity of theories predicated on events in possible futures that will never be realised are concerned, but what we do have makes me think "Serini would refrain from acting" is certainly not a bet less safe than "Redcloak wouldn't have ever noticed".

ETA:Also disregarding that your first linked comic does not say what you claim it says. "effective" and "efficient" are not synonyms.

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong. One of those.

[Peelee]

Well, we do know that
1. she would have refrained from taking any kind of decisive action, because she told us she would (for perfectly good reasons); and
2. were it not for V, she would have just left Team Evil run away with the initiative while she naps,
so we are on the same page so far as the exact validity of theories predicated on events in possible futures that will never be realised are concerned, but what we do have makes me think "Serini would refrain from acting" is certainly not a bet less safe than "Redcloak wouldn't have ever noticed".

She told us she would have refrained from taking any confrontational action. Every time the Order oressed her, it was for direct confrontation, which we know she wants to avoid as much as possible.

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong. One of those.

Fine, "interchangeable". Better? Redcloak wanted a more orderly method, and didn't say anything the way you characterized it

[Metastachydium]

She told us she would have refrained from taking any confrontational action. Every time the Order oressed her, it was for direct confrontation, which we know she wants to avoid as much as possible.

Note that I used the phrase "decisive action". Also note that Team Evil solving the game is happening now and she did say she'd really rather continue her nap, so there's that.

Fine, "interchangeable". Better?

No. That's context-dependent.

Redcloak wanted a more orderly method, and didn't say anything the way you characterized it

And in this context? I don't see the contradiction. With due respect, Sir, this might not be a Happy Flower problem.

EDIT: Also, I could find the strip where she says she can't do anything about Xykon, but not the one where she says she can't fight him, but she can do stuff regardless. Care to help me put?

[Yendor]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

Part of me wants to see the damn statue addressed in-comic, just so Serini can express her undoubtedly colourful opinion of the idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong. One of those.

Efficiency and effectiveness are not the same measure, particularly from the point of view of aircraft performance (to use but one example). With that said, with efficiency improving one usually accrues the benefit of cost effectiveness, but that's only part of the picture.

[Syncrogti]

I love Sunny, she is so cute in her mannerisms.

[fuschiawarrior]

Good comic.

Serini dialogue in panel 4 implies Team Evil will find the entrance but not necessarily will be able to enter the final dungeon. That would explain why, besides her world-view, she doesn't seem worried about what TE is doing, she knows that there are more safety measures to the Gate.

[Jasdoif]

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong. One of those.

I don't think virtuoso is a synonym for effective, so I'm going to guess that the linked thesaurus groups words by similar meaning, rather than being restricted to synonyms.

[Psyren]

Ok? I didnt say anything about your criticism, so it's a bit odd that you're arguing against me because you stand by your criticism.

My point is that nobody said she was helping Xykon because she knew extra doors were being marked.

From a mechanical standpoint, sure. From a story standpoint? Doesnt natter at all. Redcloak would have enough XP to cast that spell regardless. Or the XP requirement would be removed entirely. The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

And from a story standpoint all those other gates needed to be destroyed too to forge the Order into who they needed to be to ultimately win, so her judgement of/unwillingness to assist them was still misplaced.

[Metastachydium]

Efficiency and effectiveness are not the same measure, particularly from the point of view of aircraft performance

Oh no! So Redcloak's vision with the goblin dirigibles… Will it– [gasp!] will it never come to be?

I don't think virtuoso is a synonym for effective, so I'm going to guess that the linked thesaurus groups words by similar meaning, rather than being restricted to synonyms.

It kind of opens with "as in efficient", though, and the overlap is significant enough to warrant using the term synonym regardless. (Also, virtuoso appears with a 'limited relevance' background under the heading of "synonyms and similar words").