OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Note that I used the phrase "decisive action". Also note that Team Evil solving the game is happening now and she did say she'd really rather continue her nap, so there's that.



No. That's context-dependent.



And in this context? I don't see the contradiction. With due respect, Sir, this might not be a Happy Flower problem.

EDIT: Also, I could find the strip where she says she can't do anything about Xykon, but not the one where she says she can't fight him, but she can do stuff regardless. Care to help me put?

Imean we're just not going to agree on this. I would never use efficient to mean what you extrapolate it to mean in this context and i would never read it as such.

Also, the incredibly person who doesn't tell the Order he rplans is incredibly unhelpful and isnt telling the Order her plans? Say it ain't so!

My point is that nobody said she was helping Xykon because she knew extra doors were being marked.

And my point is we didnt know that was relevant to being an absolute stopgap to the plan they were running and as such she was not helping them, and people without this knowledge claimed she was helping them.

This whole "making absolute affirnative declarations while having imperfect knowledge of what's going on" thing is turning into a running theme for me here, it seems.

[Metastachydium]

Imean we're just not going to agree on this. I would never use efficient to mean what you extrapolate it to mean in this context and i would never read it as such.

No, seriously, I need to know: what am I extrapolating from the use of the qualifier in question?

Also, the incredibly person who doesn't tell the Order he rplans is incredibly unhelpful and isnt telling the Order her plans? Say it ain't so!

?

[Laurentio III]

Just want to say that if OoTS was a tabletop D&D adventure module, most D&D players' team I know would have done every single door anyway, because XP are more valuable than anything, and for the off-chance of a magic treasure. I can hear them saying "Oh, here is the portal, but there are still a couple door left, lets backtrack!".

And we don't even want to consider a computer RPG. In that case, "100% completation" is ethically necessary. Even in a speed run.

[Jasdoif]

It kind of opens with "as in efficient", though, and the overlap is significant enough to warrant using the term synonym regardless. (Also, virtuoso appears with a 'limited relevance' background under the heading of "synonyms and similar words").

If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.

[Ruck]

The linked definition of "effective" is "producing or capable of producing a desired result."

And if you follow through and read on "efficient," it "suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning."

That's the difference.

[Peelee]

No, seriously, I need to know: what am I extrapolating from the use of the qualifier in question?

Redcloak thinks the plan is not efficient. He wants it more structured and ordered instead of being random. This fits with his Lawful/careful/nerdy personality. He objects to it being random.

Redcloak does not think the plan is not effective. At no point does he think it will not work because if the order they are doing it in, picking random doors and marking them. The order has no effect on the efficacy as far as he is concerned, and if it does, he does not voice this opinion.

I'm very surprised I have to delineate this, really.

[Metastachydium]

If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.

I'm not sure I follow.

The linked definition of "effective" is "producing or capable of producing a desired result."

And if you follow through and read on "efficient," it "suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning."

That's the difference.

In particular context, yes. Sticking with the dictionary, on the other hand, we get 'producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect' versus 'productive of desired effects' (with an added especially clause, to the effect of your restriction regarding loss/waste).

Redcloak thinks the plan is not efficient. He wants it more structured and ordered instead of being random. This fits with his Lawful/careful/nerdy personality. He objects to it being random.

Redcloak does not think the plan is not effective. At no point does he think it will not work because if the order they are doing it in, picking random doors and marking them. The order has no effect on the efficacy as far as he is concerned, and if it does, he does not voice this opinion.

Redcloak is annoyed that they are not proceeding in a methodical, "scientific" way, which would make it more reliable and easier to oversee. It's not just something triggering his OCPD or whatever. Later he explicitly clarifies it is just a dumb mess that lets details slide, besides hampering speed.

I'm very surprised I have to delineate this, really.

No comment, dude. Just… No comment.

[Precure]

Just want to say that if OoTS was a tabletop D&D adventure module, most D&D players' team I know would have done every single door anyway, because XP are more valuable than anything, and for the off-chance of a magic treasure. I can hear them saying "Oh, here is the portal, but there are still a couple door left, lets backtrack!".

And we don't even want to consider a computer RPG. In that case, "100% completation" is ethically necessary. Even in a speed run.

From what we've seen so far, most adventuring parties on OotS would do the same.

[Metastachydium]

From what we've seen so far, most adventuring parties on OotS would do the same.

And then try to grab the Gate (it's a big magical crystal; it's sure worth a lot!) and walk off with it, probably.

[Psyren]

And my point is we didnt know that was relevant to being an absolute stopgap to the plan they were running and as such she was not helping them, and people without this knowledge claimed she was helping them.

Fair enough - I think my position was more "she's not doing enough to oppose Team Evil" (which she could have done by helping rather than opposing the Order) than it was "she's helping Team Evil." I was still (very) annoyed with her at the time, but I didn't think she was malevolent - just nowhere near as competent a guardian as she thought herself to be.

But I will point out that the stopgap wasn't absolute either. The Order's presence merely accelerated the conclusion Redcloak would have arrived at anyway, that extra doors were being marked and they needed to speed up.

[Blatt]

I speculate some sort of quasi sentient portal at the far end of a random dungeon. When adventurers approach it teleports to a random other unsearched dungeon. It only stays still if there is nowhere to move to. Possibly S would have 99 henchmen enter dungeons and then when only one remained she would enter the 100th knowing the portal would be at the far end of it.

[Peelee]

Fair enough - I think my position was more "she's not doing enough to oppose Team Evil" (which she could have done by helping rather than opposing the Order) than it was "she's helping Team Evil." I was still (very) annoyed with her at the time, but I didn't think she was malevolent - just nowhere near as competent a guardian as she thought herself to be.

Oh, i completely agree. Granted, she does have reasons for that, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

But I will point out that the stopgap wasn't absolute either. The Order's presence merely accelerated the conclusion Redcloak would have arrived at anyway, that extra doors were being marked and they needed to speed up.

Also agreed! My sole issue, and what really annoyed me, was people claiming that she was helping Team Evil, which we now see is not the case. She wasn't actively hindering them (and its possible she may have secretly marked a door or done something else passive had MitD not already been throwing wrenches in gears), but she also wasnt helping them. She was just trying to avoid direct conflict, especially among the only people who she knows have actively destroyed or attempted to desteoy the Gates. Which isnt entirely unreasonable, even if it is annoying.

[Jasdoif]

If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.

I'm not sure I follow.

Instead of a source saying they're synonyms; it's a source saying they're "synonyms or similar words", followed by claiming the "similar words" part doesn't apply. It's the kind of thing that's often done when ambiguity is favorable to a claim, which of course is when clarity is unfavorable; such as if no more definitive source exists because the claim has no factual support.

This of course isn't automatically the case, and I see you're using dictionary pages now so if it ever did apply it doesn't now....


Honestly, I was hoping for things to lead to an interesting account of at least one of the following:

• Shared history between "efficient" and "effective"
• The "especially with little waste" meaning of "efficient" arising as a ubiquitous connotation, to the point that it's practically the definition in certain fields(?)
• "Orderly and efficient" being used as a phrase so frequently that the words get blurred, as when Redcloak said "efficient" when he clearly(?) meant "orderly" and Peelee was still able to extract "orderly" from it

...which is more likely to happen with stronger methodology (and less likely to happen if a side is chosen, though I probably spoiled my view that with the last bullet point there).

[Finagle]

Roh Ruh. Clock's a ticking.

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

[Tzardok]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

[HalfTangible]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

This, plus once Team Evil reaches the gate, fighting them off of it becomes much more problematic. One stray fireball, one nat 1 on an attack roll, one summoning in the wrong position...

[Aquillion]

Dorukan had a self destruct on his, Soon had his in an (conceptually) easy to access place (and seemed isolated from the rest of his group), Girard had his with a whole family who likely knew where it was.

It's worth pointing out that Soon's gate was where it was for very specific reasons. Yes, wanting to be able to destroy it was probably part of it, but also, he wanted it to be heavily protected by mundane defenses and social institutions, without giving away its existence or location. If he put it somewhere else and tried to throw a bunch of defenses on it, everyone in the city (even ones who don't know about the gate) would realize there was something important there.

The only way he could get everything he wanted was by placing it somewhere that would make it logical to heavily-defend, eg. the throne room. This even meant he could an anti-scrying ward over it without running into the problem of "well, it's obviously where the anti-scrying ward is", and have a bunch of specialized magical defenses whose presence wasn't a red flag that something important was there (because obviously the throne room would have a huge pile of magical defenses.)

Basically, it meant he could have most of Azure City as a defenses around it while still keeping its location a secret.

(And not incidentally, while he was alive, it allowed him to personally defend the gate - something that would be important to a Paladin, as well as being tactically wise given how strong and experienced he was - while still running the city and establishing an order of Paladins for future protection. And he even had a solution for what happens when he dies!)

[Peelee]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

A.) Not how Sending works.
2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

[brian 333]

Serini doesn't need a secret entrance to her gate because she's already been through all of the doors. Any door leads her to the final one.

For all who guessed, "All the doors," you are now on my list of people I'm jealous of. I want to say I also thought so, but I can't remember posting anything like that.

I will go out on a limb and say that I suspect going through the swap over is enough. Go through all the swapovers, and when you turn around to exit you go to the final room. The stuff at the dungeon's end is bait.

[JonahFalcon]

"Goat-smacking fleece folders"?

Ok, Serini, before you explain the dungeon, explain your expletives.

Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

Belkar's adorable chef's hat makes up for it.

[RatElemental]

Called It.

I can't find the post where I did, and I spent a good hour looking through every post I've made in this subforum, but it was something about there being a lever or something in every dungeon you have to pull to reveal the real one.

[danielxcutter]

A.) Not how Sending works.
2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

I wonder why V’s master wouldn’t, or at least why V wouldn’t think it’d work. I think the IFCC’s alternative suggestion partly hinged on them coming to help.

[SlashDash]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual.

Or in the course of fighting whatever defenses are there, they might blow up the gate. You know, like they did with Lirian's gate? Accident or not, it's not a risk anyone wants to take - especially the gods.

In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

There are barely any high level clerics that can help them. Roy even points that out in the pyramid - Remember how much trouble they had to get through to resurrect Roy?

Who else can they go to?

Master Aarindarius is the only other high level character we've seen the party mention that might have a shot here if they thought he was capable of fighting the dragon.

Who else do we got? Julio? Hardly a threat to Xykon
Tarquin and his gang? They'll obviously come back in some way or another after that cliffhanger, but I doubt anyone in the party would think of calling them.


Besides, obviously this is the story about this particular party and suddenly teleporting lots of other high level casters to do their work for them would cheapen the story.

Serini doesn't need a secret entrance to her gate because she's already been through all of the doors. Any door leads her to the final one.

The story requires there to be another way, because that means if team evil makes it through all the doors, our heroes would be unable to chase them. And since we specifically get to see that team evil isn't killing the monsters, the party can't possibly rush through all the doors and survive what's in there.

The other option is that the heroes go to stop team evil before they finish all the doors. But that would put us too close to the end of the book as we are far from there.

[Finagle]

What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.

they might blow up the gate. You know, like they did with Lirian's gate?

Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.

A.) Not how Sending works.

What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.

Master Aarindarius is the only other high level character we've seen the party mention that might have a shot here if they thought he was capable of fighting the dragon.

Hell, call all the dragons. Look at how pissed they were that a quarter of all black dragons met the same fate.

[Alex Warlorn]

*plays Zelda's puzzle solved music*

[Kish]

Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.

I'm sure Rich cries himself to sleep every night knowing you don't like his storytelling.

What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.

What did Roy say to Wrecan about why he didn't explain that the world was in danger of being destroyed, again?

And you have the Order sending to...dozens, hundreds of spellcasters they don't know (somehow) and making an airtight 25-words-or-less case that those spellcasters need to drop everything and rush to the North Pole.

...you know, it shows amazing chutzpah for you to describe something else as "bad storytelling" in the same breath.

[hroþila]

It's a bit weird to suggest that Team Evil wouldn't blow up a gate twice because that'd be bad storytelling, considering that two gates have been intentionally blown up by the defenders so far. But also, no one is implying that's what's going to happen in the actual story? The discussion is not about out-of-universe storytelling, but about the in-universe rationale behind the idea that it would be bad if Team Evil reaches the gate.

(I would also like to add that there's no indication that Redcloak and Xykon would be in a trance during the ritual, or in any way defenseless)

[tanonx]

Well, that puts paid to the "it's really under the statue" nonsense at long last :D

By which we mean the entrance to the Final Dungeon is under the statue's base, which slides open when you walk back out of the last dungeon door. Naturally. Perfectly reasonable expectation.

Speaking of which... is there any reason you can't just disable the trap to one of the doors and let Team Evil ransack the back room to their empty ribcage's content? Even if they fall back on Cleric options to find out about those traps, they're poorly equipped to re-arm one.

Sure, they'll eventually magic their way into it. But that'll never not be true.

[Psychronia]

A gauntlet, huh? Clever and to the point.
I guess that means MitD did manage to stall Team Evil a little then. Or at least...they would have.

If I were Sereni, I'd mix in the shell game as well by having one of the required doors to the dungeon be hidden as well. Maybe keep it a distance away, or maybe just disguise it as something that doesn't seem like a door. Preferably both, but it depends on the mechanism behind the whole thing.

[Fish]

This is a good reveal, but I think we are missing an even better one.

The planar ally will only assist in clearing the dungeons behind the doors in this valley. We now have a strong possibility that the swap-over trick (or some other mechanism) is being used to reveal a different dungeon at a specific moment. That dungeon is behind a door, and said door may not be in this valley.