OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Sigako]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

[gatemansgc]

let's say there are 100 doors. I Know there are more, but for the sake of the explanation, it doesn't matter. Let's say there are 1 hundred

We know they have explored 27 of them already, at a rate of 7 minutes per door. Starting at end A and working toward end B.

1. If the gate was behind ONE specific door, say, door 50, then Serini's rough estimate would be "they will find the door in 161 more minutes." which could then be fed into a formula to figure out what door it's behind. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2. If the gate isn't there at all, then Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate beyond "some point beyond another 511 minutes. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2.5. The unspoken option. the gate is randomly shifted and could be located behind any random door. Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate and she says she can. So that removes that option.

3. Minimum number. the gate COULD be located behind any door. In this case Serini's estimate would have to be "within the next 7 minutes" because she doesn't know if they will find it or not. And, as V pointed out, they would statistically have already found it.

4. Maximum number. 511 minutes. That's the only remaining "rough estimate" that Serini could provide (after she herself removed the option that it WAS behind a specific singular door) so that's how V deduced it. The entrance to the final dungeon can only be revealed after all dungeons are explored.

thank you for mathing this i was confused!

[Windscion]

... is there any reason you can't just disable the trap to one of the doors and let Team Evil ransack the back room to their empty ribcage's content? Even if they fall back on Cleric options to find out about those traps, they're poorly equipped to re-arm one.

This would depend, to some extent, on the definition of "all." Possibly disabling a teleporter drops the count by one and you still end up opening the final dungeon. We don't know, because we don't know how much priority was placed upon being able to enter the FD via a back door.

[Ruck]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

The only way to get to the final dungeon, where the Gate is located, is to go through all the other dungeons.

[HalfTangible]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

There is no singular correct door. Instead, to reach the final dungeon (the area where the gate is located), you must enter all of the doors.

It's not clear yet whether you need to just reach the end of each door's mini dungeon, or kill everything inside within a certain period of time.

[Kamunami]

Not sure if someone's said this already, but I think the most reasonable theory is that you don't have to enter any dungeon proper, you just go in and trigger the swapover, then leave.

If they wanted to make the gates completely inaccessible, it'd be a lot easier than putting them behind some crazy test. They obviously want to be able to reach the gates if necessary, for some unforeseen emergency. But then, imagine if the only way to reach this one was to explore and clear out dozens and dozens of dungeons, it'd take way too long! Even made for a barbarian, it may as well BE inaccessible if the dungeons need clearing. There has to be a relatively fast way to get through ONLY if you know the answer, so I think stepping inside is the only necessary bit.

Of course, the final door probably does have some biggest and baddest encounter behind it before the gate.

[BriarHobbit]

We know. The heroes know and now V's tenants (the Demons Three) know.

[Tzardok]

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.

Hasn't been stated or alluded in comic? Oh sorry, I must've dreamt this whole conversation about how the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets his hands on the gate.

[The MunchKING]

I have to admit. I did not see that one coming. But it makes sense now that it has been revealed.

On the other hand I called it way back when, when I said that was exactly how I would have made the dungeon based on my understanding of Final Fantasy dungeons. You had to go to end of every dungeon and flip a hidden switch or something to unlock the real treasure room, in this case, the Gate.

I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.

Oh dang, you're going to want REFERENCES? Now I've got to look up all my old posts...

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e#post24439574

Me responding to Bacon Elemental when they suggested this scenario.

AH here’s an earlier one where I spell it out.


Originally Posted by Ruck

Interesting question. In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might. I wouldn't be surprised if it also included an element of deception (as Serini is a rogue), or something else that might make the gate less straightforward than it appears-- although I would reject the idea that the Gate is hidden somewhere that isn't behind fearsome monsters, just that there's more to it than that.
My idea on the subject was if you have enough money to build a mountain out of magic-unopbtainium with plot powers to keep all your monsters in, why would you put a switch or the gate at the end of ONE tunnel, where in theory someone could get lucky and go down that one first and find the switch?

I would put a switch at the end of EVERY tunnel, and they ALL have to be flipped (maybe into a specific pattern) to reveal the Gate. That also fits with the "Brute force is what Kraagor would have respected" philosophy, while because you HID the switches at the end of each and didn't write down that this was the gimmick, lets your Rogue chops do some work protecting the Gate too.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e#post23680723


Ooop, and here’s another one

My idea was if you're going to build a monument to strength and enurance and add a bit of rougish cunning, why hide the gate behind ONE tunnel, and make the possibility of guessing right a thing at all, when you can hide it behind EVERY tunnel?

The idea would be at the end of each tunnel is a hidden switch or something, and only if ALL of them are found and flipped would the Gate be revealed. That way you have to not just be lucky and stronger than the monsters in ONE section, but stronger than all the monsters in ALL the sections. Or powerful enough to level a magic-blocking super-mountain. Either or.

and best of all if you didn't KNOW about the switches you could try every door (Possibly multiple times if you didn't paint them like team evil) before you realize there's something you're not getting. And with monsters strong enough to level an already Epic Lich, pretty much anything less would have died long before.


EDIT it's basically the opposite of the Shell game, Haley mentioned, and thus demonstrates strength AND brains will be needed to beat it. That said it's probably expensive, which is why they ran out of money before the wizard got his water-room.
Last edited by The MunchKING; 2018-05-03 at 10:45 AM.

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

A gauntlet is also a term for a punishment where the offender would run between lines of people armed with sticks that beat him for his offenses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet

[Sigako]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

Found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profes...Gauntlet_match
Basically, here it's a trial by combat, where you have to defeat them all and be left standing (thank you for explanation, several kind people). Sounds appropriate for a barbarian, indeed.
Or at least cross each portal back and forth, as it is speculated.


Also, about respawning the monsters: if strip 1270 is any indication, there's no automatic respawn, it's just Serini bringing some fresh monsters from time to time while hidden behind invisibility.

[Lemarc]

How does Serini reach the gate if she needs to? That's the point of having a puzzle/trap instead of metaphorically sealing the macguffin in lead and burying it in concrete, right? Does she have to reach the end of every single dungeon in the valley in the event she needs to do a check-up or maintenance?

[Peelee]

What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Where did I mention Dungeons and Dragons? I said that's not how Sending works.

It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.

Which is not a terribly convincing argument.

It seems like you think i am arguing against your ideas. I am not. I am pointing out how the your ideas are directly contradicted by the comic.

Hell, call all the dragons.

Again, both not how Sending works and also likely wouldn't bother to help even if Sending could just contact random people.

[Bacon Elemental]

snip

Whoah, I'd long since forgotten about floating that idea. Must have been my barbarian brain kicking in.


Anyway, I do in fact think that "You must delve EVERY dungeon before Monster Hollow begins resetting to uncover the real entrance" is brilliant, and EXACTLY the kind of monument a rogue would build to a barbarian. As a plus side, even if there wasn't such a strong divination blackout on the Gate it would ensure that any "Find the gate" spell would just point you to the doors in Monster Hollow, since that IS the correct path to the gate.

[hroþila]

Aside from all the logistical/mechanical problems with the Sending spell, I'm not sure it'd be wise to openly advertise the existence of a doomsday device that some Evil guys are trying to use and that can be destroyed in order to destroy the world. Even if Xykon was defeated, that's just asking for a cornucopia of villains to pop up with their own Gate-related schemes down the line. There's a reason why the gods try to be careful with this information. And good luck convincing everybody including the dragons to help if you don't explain exactly why you need them in unequivocal terms.

Ultimately, there's a limited number of people they could realistically call on, and many of them are stuck at a Godsmoot.

[Precure]

All things put aside, V should contact Aarindarius at least.

[Bacon Elemental]

Possibly, but I think Rich has previously hinted that Aarindarius probbably isn't as awesome as V remembers them as? Your wise and powerful old teacher who you haven't seen since you were 5th level might not be as good at cleaning up your 16th level CR 22+ messes as you recall or something.

[Peelee]

This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

Also I'd like to address this. Or, rather, the author would like to address this fourteen yesrs ago.

As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise.

Sure, it's not a D&D comic, it's a just exactly like D&D in every way except when it is explicitly not. Sending has never been shish to be explicitly not, so even without all of Sending's restrictions being spelled out in several comics, we can still use the SRD to determine how it works until the comic specifically shows it not working that way.

Tl;dr - you might want to drop this rebuttal argument in the future. It's wrong.

[Larsaan]

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Would she? There's been no indication so far that she's been surveilling Team Evil at all. Also, this is assuming Redcloak doesn't immediately catch on the moment the last door gets marked and he starts counting them, or they simply call a do-over using a method that MITD can't fudge (like they're doing, oh, right now).

Frankly this page proves the opposite, that Serini's non-intervention stance on Xykon would have made him finding the Gate inevitable.

[The MunchKING]

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Where did I mention Dungeons and Dragons? I said that's not how Sending works.

I was going to say "Gate either", but looking back on the initial statement, it's vague enough on whether they wanted to Gate in all the wizards, or have the Wizards gate in a bunch of other allies.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, forgetting the Gate spell only works interplanar usually isn’t a big thing because usually you want to summon big stronk Outsiders anyways.

[Edreyn]

I wonder, to find the real dungeon, do they have to actually visit all dungeons, or just marking them as finished can do the trick? If it is so, then MitD is actually helping Team Evil.

[Wintermoot]

You know, I am exceedingly and increasingly disappointed by the end of big budget super hero movies when you end up with an army of good guys vs an army of bad guys in a CGI swarm, a thousand processors crying out in tandem as they make them clash. I think Avengers Endgame was the last I wish to see of it because it was the last to do it "pretty well".

I don't want to see this comic end with "a hundred other powerful people show up to save the day". So I'm grateful that it isn't happening.

Regardless, the Author has done more that sufficient to explain why that isn't an option. Multiple times.

[Peelee]

Would she? There's been no indication so far that she's been surveilling Team Evil at all. Also, this is assuming Redcloak doesn't immediately catch on the moment the last door gets marked and he starts counting them, or they simply call a do-over using a method that MITD can't fudge (like they're doing, oh, right now).

Frankly this page proves the opposite, that Serini's non-intervention stance on Xykon would have made him finding the Gate inevitable.

There is plenty of indication. Serini had to be surveilling the canyon or she wouldn't have known about the paladins or Order entering.

Also, you are explicitly wrong that this proves it would have nade Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, as, again, MitD's interference already hampered that. They wouldn't have found it either way.

If you are convinced it prived that this would made made Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, please, feel free to specify how, since you just said it does with no backing - that which can be offered with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence. And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order (and where they were, and had formulated a plan to remove them from the board), i have my doubts as to your analysis regarding this page.

I wonder, to find the real dungeon, do they have to actually visit all dungeons, or just marking them as finished can do the trick? If it is so, then MitD is actually helping Team Evil.

Why would you wonder this? Has any indication that marking a door is necessary at all, much less imperative?

[Edreyn]

Why would you wonder this? Has any indication that marking a door is necessary at all, much less imperative?

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony.

The protagonist had to find the leader of nightmare horses in an infinite ravine. The stallion would be in the last place searched.
But how to find last place in endless ravine?
He took a ball of threads, also literally infinite, and divided the ravine in two halves, ASSUMING he searched one of them. Then he divided the remaining half in two more halves and so on. In a finite and actually very small piece of this place, he cornered his enemy.
He didn't actually search through endless place, he cheated the system, by marking parts of it as searched.

So, remembering this story, I thought that just marking doors as finished is the same as actually visiting dungeons. Someone in this thread already said, that it might not be necessary to kill everyone inside. Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

We shall see.

[Peelee]

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

I would contest "always". For example, in this story, this loophole would be quite bad and i would complain about bad writing if it happens.

Twists need good reasons to be good.

[JonahFalcon]

Let's get all the heroes to the dungeons!

Oh, the Mechane left. Never mind.

[whitehelm]

That leaves a hole: if the OotS goes through, what, the 13th door from the end and fights through the first room (they can definitely do that. Even if they're not as strong as Xykon+Redcloak+Oona, fighting half a dungeon when Team Evil was doing 5 per day is quite reasonable), then when Team Evil goes there, they skip it. No illusion here, and Pass Without Trace may be doable if they increase Belkar's Wisdom (alternatively, hope they don't ask Oona to scout in every dungeon).

This won't work, because Redcloak is using Detect Evil to identify which doors they've already entered. If a door has dead monsters but no Evil aura, he's going to know something's up and check it anyway.

[Ruck]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e#post23680723

Less straightforward than it appears (at a time when we didn't know about the swap-overs yet), still hidden behind lots of monsters... Yeah, I'll take at least partial credit for that.

[Laurentio III]

Now, question.
Serini said that there are only an handful of monsters in the backstage, that is where they are at the moment.
But, the dungeon is able to regenerate its monsters, and clearly a clean dungeon can't repopulate by itself. Monsters are often fast-grower and can have abundant cubs, but you still need to preserve some fertile couple.
Plus, such an high number of monsters, most of which are carnivorous, needs food. Plenty of food. And for economic reason, they can't just prey on themselves, and the occasional bugbear is just an appetizer.
So, somewhere that is NOT the backstage, there must exist a giganormous breeding farm, somehow automatized. The biggest Minecraft farm of mobs ever seen.

Is this a correct guess, or I'm missing something?
Is Redclock going to win the gauntlet just to being zerg rushed by all the Monster Manual epic digest?

[Resileaf]

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.



Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.



What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.



It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.



Hell, call all the dragons. Look at how pissed they were that a quarter of all black dragons met the same fate.

How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?