OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Larsaan]

There is plenty of indication. Serini had to be surveilling the canyon or she wouldn't have known about the paladins or Order entering.

...

And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order

The Order had been loudly and regularly announcing their approach for some time, possibly also the paladins', so Serini was well aware of them. However, that only means she'd be keeping an eye out for new arrivals, not keeping an eye on Team Evil which is already on site (it would, in fact, draw time and energy away from doing so).

Granted, her knowledge about the other gates does imply that she has access to some kind of scrying effect, but there is no indication that she's got that kind of info over the canyon. There is, after all, a reason why they're currently relying on Blackwing for intel on Team Evil.

Also, you are explicitly wrong that this proves it would have nade Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, as, again, MitD's interference already hampered that. They wouldn't have found it either way.

If you are convinced it prived that this would made made Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, please, feel free to specify how

Answer me this please, what do you think would have happened when the last door had been marked? Do you think Redcloak and Xykon would have shrugged their shoulders and given up? We now know that the only things needed to find the Gate (or at least the final dungeon) is brute force and persistence, qualities that Team Evil has in spades. Even if Redcloak never caught the discrepancy between the marked doors and the time they'd spent there (which I think is already unlikely, hell, he's already considered the possibility of MITD messing up the markings), he's still got an analytical mindset, he'd keep trying new things with the dungeons. Sooner or later he'd have delved into every single one of them, the guy is immortal, it's a statistical inevitability.

And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order (and where they were, and had formulated a plan to remove them from the board), i have my doubts as to your analysis regarding this page.

And if you could make your next reply without any snide insults, I'd appreciate that too.

[Shining Wrath]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

The location of the Gate will not be revealed until someone has searched behind every door. In order to reach the goal you must pass through every door. It doesn't matter what order you open the doors, but you must open all of them.

It is not clear whether or not you have to do anything once you open a door, but I am assuming you have to explore the area behind the door.

---

Does it count if Team Evil opens a door and explores behind it, but doesn't notice the cross-over trick? It seems that it does.

[Fyraltari]

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony.

The protagonist had to find the leader of nightmare horses in an infinite ravine. The stallion would be in the last place searched.
But how to find last place in endless ravine?
He took a ball of threads, also literally infinite, and divided the ravine in two halves, ASSUMING he searched one of them. Then he divided the remaining half in two more halves and so on. In a finite and actually very small piece of this place, he cornered his enemy.
He didn't actually search through endless place, he cheated the system, by marking parts of it as searched.

So, remembering this story, I thought that just marking doors as finished is the same as actually visiting dungeons. Someone in this thread already said, that it might not be necessary to kill everyone inside. Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

We shall see.

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

[Edreyn]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.

Alternatively, the author might not have been a mathematician. Those are two skillsets with little overlap. And infinities are anything but intuitive, as Hilbert proved.

GW

[OvisCaedo]

I don't know anything about the story, but if the loophole of "claiming I searched this half because it's marked" works to start with, then you could reduce an infinite chasm to a finite one pretty easily. Go in the other direction for a bit, mark it, claim you searched the other side, and the "unsearched" portion would now be the finite middle chunk you're standing in. Which, obviously, you happened to not search while walking through.

Though the whole thing is a rather big logical stretch

[Fish]

How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?

It depends on why the NPCs are there. If they are the result of carefully cultivating allies and friendships through RP, then it’d be pretty badass. Sort of like the end of season 1 of The Mandalorian.

If the D&D game is a mindless dungeon crawl where the players are just XP consumption machines, I can see why they would be upset.

Naturally I’m not implying those are the only two options.

[Rinazina]

I theorize that they have not done all the dungeons. I think the refresh is fast enough that they would be able to do a subset over and over. They would do that instead of having to go to the furthest one away from their camp, because there would be no need. They are only doing it for the food. Why go out of the way?

I mean, why the should not open all of them and just check what's there? they are not depleting the monsters, but assuming Oona or the Shaman or other historically active member of the tribe did not checked all of them, it is an assumption that bugbears are just super lazy or no curious at all..

• bugbears should have checked all doors in so many years,
• ... hence, checking all door is not enough
• killing all monster is? (...then the team evil is not going to win with the Quinton blocking them)
• or is to reach the end of each dungeon? (...and ok, maybe the bugbears did check all the doors but avoided the most problematic)
• or there is a refresh period?

I guess this would be clarify in the next strip (edit: except if we don't have a super cutaway panel that start to bring us somewhere else), at this point, because the puzzle is solved anyway

[Ruck]

Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

Stating to whom or what?

[Resileaf]

It depends on why the NPCs are there. If they are the result of carefully cultivating allies and friendships through RP, then it’d be pretty badass. Sort of like the end of season 1 of The Mandalorian.

If the D&D game is a mindless dungeon crawl where the players are just XP consumption machines, I can see why they would be upset.

Naturally I’m not implying those are the only two options.

In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.

The Giant has already done a 'The Cavalry comes' moment when Durkon's family joined the fight against the vampires anyway. It was badass, it was narratively satisfying, it made sense because they were all mentionned in the past and were all in a nearby physical location. Here we're talking about random dudes with no characterization who will just appear from nowhere and gang up on Xykon like the adventurers who killed Yokyok. This ain't 8-bit theater, there's narrative catharsis in this story.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, why the should not open all of them and just check what's there? they are not depleting the monsters, but assuming Oona or the Shaman or other historically active member of the tribe did not checked all of them, it is an assumption that bugbears are just super lazy or no curious at all..

• bugbears should have checked all doors in so many years,
• ... hence, checking all door is not enough
• killing all monster is? (...then the team evil is not going to win with the Quinton blocking them)
• or is to reach the end of each dungeon? (...and ok, maybe the bugbears did check all the doors but avoided the most problematic)
• or there is a refresh period?

I guess this would be clarify in the next strip (edit: except if we don't have a super cutaway panel that start to bring us somewhere else), at this point, because the puzzle is solved anyway

Maybe it has to be the same person and no individual bugbear ever searched every door even if the tribe collectively did.

[Psyren]

How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?

I just want to note that it's not entirely impossible to have 100 NPCs show up and help the party save the day be a satisfying resolution. It all depends on context and setup.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B

With that said, I don't think that will be the case here, or at the very least that won't be the way Team Evil gets defeated; their rivalry with the Order is too personal and long-running for that. But there are other antagonists (the IFCC, the gods*, the Snarl itself) where the safety of the entire Stickworld is at stake, and therefore the involvement of the entire Stickworld can be part of the resolution without necessarily detracting from the core heroes' story.

*as a general group, not individuals

[Jasdoif]

In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.

I think the bigger concern is the almost certainty that they'll eliminate Redcloak, ruining Thor's plan to save the world. The Order doesn't have any control over them, very few if any will have any idea Thor has placed any importance on Redcloak at all, Durkon doesn't even have a plan to share at this point, Redcloak is a high level spellcaster capable of killing some of them if given the chance....The key to saving the world may well be crushed beneath metaphorical hooves if cavalry comes to solve the short-term threat.

[The MunchKING]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

It was mental/spiritual plane of existence thing. It was supposed to use weird dream logic because it was a dream realm.

[Thecommander236]

Well, I understand the concept, I have to wonder about the execution. How does the Dungeon determine that you finished one of the entrances? Can you just step in and step out? Or do you have to defeat everything in it? Team Evil is just stepping in, using Force Cage or whatever on all the enemies. Does that count as "Dungeon" complete or do they have to step over some invisible line or look at something in particular for it to count as completed?

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius was about to go over some ideas. But no one else in the comic cared.

[The MunchKING]

Well, I understand the concept, I have to wonder about the execution. How does the Dungeon determine that you finished one of the entrances? Can you just step in and step out? Or do you have to defeat everything in it? Team Evil is just stepping in, using Force Cage or whatever on all the enemies. Does that count as "Dungeon" complete or do they have to step over some invisible line or look at something in particular for it to count as completed?

I was assuming some kind of switch in the very back.

[Kish]

Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.

I think "I assume Serini's very serious effort to protect the Gate follows the same rules as a dreamworld which is itself inside a world based on puns" will not lead you anywhere fruitful.

[bunsen_h]

And then try to grab the Gate (it's a big magical crystal; it's sure worth a lot!) and walk off with it, probably.

A scintillating, many fauceted scarlet emerald?

Tarquin and his gang? They'll obviously come back in some way or another after that cliffhanger, but I doubt anyone in the party would think of calling them.

I seem to recall that, per the Giant, part of the point of that ending was -- precisely -- that Tarquin got an ignominious ending. Rather than getting an ending that Tarquin would consider appropriate for a major character.

A gauntlet is also a term for a punishment where the offender would run between lines of people armed with sticks that beat him for his offenses.

The gantlet can also be a kind of ritual test of courage and stamina, used to prove worthiness to join a group. One who walks through it, slowly and steadily, enduring the pain, gets to join the tribe. One who tries to rush, or flinches or tries to evade the blows, fails (and gets treated even more harshly than someone who reacts stoically).

Alternatively, the author might not have been a mathematician. Those are two skillsets with little overlap. And infinities are anything but intuitive, as Hilbert proved.

Well, Piers Anthony knew enough game theory to nick the "Prisoners' Dilemma" and write it into one of those books, as a thing invented by one of the characters, while not giving any credit for it in his Foreword or Afterword. I think that that was kind of the final straw for me when it came to reading those books, not that there weren't lots of other problems that irritated me.

[Kamunami]

I was assuming some kind of switch in the very back.

I feel like that would make the puzzle more obvious. Each one is meant to look like a decoy.

[The MunchKING]

well, I meant a well-hidden secret one.

[Cazero]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

I think the idea is to mark as searched the infinite area behind you, take three steps, mark as searched the infinite area before you, then turn back and search the three steps you've taken.
Wich is still stupid. Declaring an area as searched makes no sense.

[Resileaf]

I just want to note that it's not entirely impossible to have 100 NPCs show up and help the party save the day be a satisfying resolution. It all depends on context and setup.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B

Already addressed in my previous post.

In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.

The Giant has already done a 'The Cavalry comes' moment when Durkon's family joined the fight against the vampires anyway. It was badass, it was narratively satisfying, it made sense because they were all mentionned in the past and were all in a nearby physical location. Here we're talking about random dudes with no characterization who will just appear from nowhere and gang up on Xykon like the adventurers who killed Yokyok. This ain't 8-bit theater, there's narrative catharsis in this story.

[Aquillion]

Although, if the only reason the gate is accessible is to ensure that Serini has access to it, I wonder why she didn't include at least one of the required doors "backstage", so nobody can access the gate without solving that part as well.

[Sienar]

In all this discussion about how Serini is able to force Team Evil to grind every dungeon to get to the gate, no one has asked the most significant question.

What the heck is a "shoe doubler" and how is that insulting?

In all seriousness, most of her insults I kind of understand and can appreciate the smack but shoe doubler?

[Tzardok]

Propably got something to do with how halflings don't wear shoes in this setting. And doubler, well, halflings are half as tall as humans, so a human is double the size of a halfling. So it's something like "shoe-wearing giant oaf'.

[Imbalance]

Google doesn't know what "tweeby" means.

...neither do I...

[Psyren]

Already addressed in my previous post.

I know that, but my point is we have options to do this besides "random dudes with no characterization" too. Of course the least satisfying way of executing this wouldn't be satisfying, that just means you shouldn't do it that way.

Although, if the only reason the gate is accessible is to ensure that Serini has access to it, I wonder why she didn't include at least one of the required doors "backstage", so nobody can access the gate without solving that part as well.

We don't know that "Backstage" isn't connected to the Final Dungeon. (Indeed, the fact that the swap-overs work both ways is foreshadowing that it might be.)

[JonahFalcon]

Google doesn't know what "tweeby" means.

...neither do I...

It's an extremely derogatory word for halfling foot fungus. Because, you know, halflings don't normally get it, being barefoot.

[KorvinStarmast]

We know. The heroes know and now V's tenants (the Demons Three) know.

Wrong word there. A tenant lives in a place owned by a landlord. The fiends do not live in V's place, V (for a short period) exists in theirs. I will suggest that "V's landlords, the Demons Three" fits better there.

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony.

You lost me at Piers Anthony. After The Color of Magic, I knew better than to go for a second helping.
Later correction: The Source of Magic

Vaarsuvius was about to go over some ideas. But no one else in the comic cared.

Thank you, and well said.