Stats for the Stats God! The Deities of OOTS

[dancrilis]

Nope. Im not terribly creative. But you give me, for example, a cleric who wants to sacrifice hundreds to thousands per day in an ongoing holocaust specifically to honor his god, and I'm gonna go ahead and say that's an Evil god. And if you tell me that god is Neutral, well, I'm not going to think very much of your idea of Neutral. Easy as that.

Fair enough - I think you might be treating Neutral as more good aligned then evil aligned where neutral could be considered to be equally aligned with both (or unaligned with either).

In relation to neutral Vaarsuvius commited deliberate genocide and accidental mass murder - and never changed alignment (that we know of), Gannji and Enor were fine working with a the Empire of Blood as long as it profited them.

After Nergal's followers die they break down in his plane and forget themselves - whether then died comfortable in their beds or in a chamber doesn't matter to much in the long term, he has likely seen a lot of death in his time not to be overly phased by one priests plans.

I'm assuming (like Metastachydium did) that like with clerics a paladin may usually only be one step removed from the deity's alignment. Lawful Neutral is one step removed from Lawful Good. If we don't follow that assumption, we can't make any guesses about Marduk's alignment.

Sure we can - Marduk has paladins therefore he is likely not evil as otherwise they would not be able to associate with him.

What we don't know if he could be neutral of chaotic.

So an alignment of 'Not Evil' seems fair to me.

Regarding the Nergal's alignment argument: I can buy a cleric being mistaken to such a large extent about their god's intentions. Heretical believes and knight templars are a thing. I find it more difficult to believe for the god's actual high priest to be divergent without actual misdirection on the part of the god. Either way, that Rich described Nergal's will as "unholy" is to me a pretty clear indicator of his alignment.

This is high-priest-to-deity. Sure, an Evil person may assume others think the way he does. But a high goddamn priest, who has served his deity for centuries?

I don't recall it even been said or hinted at that Malack is Nergal's High Priest (not that I think it would matter overly even if he was).

[Peelee]

I don't recall it even been said or hinted at that Malack is Nergal's High Priest

Other than when Malack said he was, you mean?

That aside, i think we'll just disagree. For the record, if there was a Good analogue to a perpetual holocaust dedicated to a god, then I think a Neutral deity would similarly be a poor fit for a cleric doing such in their name.

[dancrilis]

Other than when Malack said he was, you mean?

Yip, I had forgotten about that, having reread it I read that more as him being the high priest of the empress, rather then the guy who would get called to the godsmoot.

In potential support of this I think based on timing (and not-Durkon knowing about it) that the Godsmoot may have been called prior to his destruction - and the destuction of the fourth gate - and so he would have been on his way there rather then indulging Tarquin if he was the High Priest.

That aside, i think we'll just disagree. For the record, if there was a Good analogue to a perpetual holocaust dedicated to a god, then I think a Neutral deity would similarly be a poor fit for a cleric doing such in their name.

Fair enough - I was thinking of trying to create such a scenario best I could come up before I got bored was a good cleric of a neutral deity setting up an automatic adoption system embedded into law where good people would automatically adopt the children of deceased dwarven mothers so that the children are not dragged to Hel with them if they die at the same time (and dishonourably), thereby saving an untold amount of innocent souls from eternal torment - but I don't really like it (and don't think the metaphysics work that well for it either).

[Tzardok]

I would call Hel Lawful Evil, specifically. Her methodology of having plans within plans as well as backup contingencies is an extremely Orderly behavior, and she expressly taught her clerics to do the same - as evidenced by Durkula's own statements.

I personally don't think so. We have ample evidence of Chaotic beings being able to do longterm, multilayered planing (many official adventures are based on the intricate schemes of demon lords, for example, and Lord Shojo is a pretty effective Chaotic Good schemer), and most sources on yugoloths (most of them from 2e, because 3.x doesn't give a hoot about them) make them out as the most consumate and tricky schemers of all fiends. It would be something different if she were to, I dunno, keep her plans in numbered and organized folders with checklists or something like that.

I feel like she's Neutral Evil, but I lack the ability to put this feeling into words or substantiate it in any way, so I didn't include it.

[hamishspence]

Manual of the Planes's version was NE - that might be it.

I think in some editions, Niflheim (Hel's divine domain according to MotP) is sited in Hades on the Great Wheel, too.

[Tzardok]

Those are correct and they may have influenced me.

[hroþila]

Yip, I had forgotten about that, having reread it I read that more as him being the high priest of the empress, rather then the guy who would get called to the godsmoot.

In potential support of this I think based on timing (and not-Durkon knowing about it) that the Godsmoot may have been called prior to his destruction - and the destuction of the fourth gate - and so he would have been on his way there rather then indulging Tarquin if he was the High Priest.

I'm agnostic on whether Malack was the high priest of Nergal's whole church rather than just the high priest of the Empire of Blood (at any rate, he was a high-ranking priest, so I don't think it matters much in this context). That said, the Godsmoot was called with just three days' notice, i.e. when Girard's Gate was destroyed. Durkon knew about it because Hel told him before it was called. It wouldn't have taken divine or superhuman foresight to know that a new Godsmoot was likely because Girard's Gate was being fought over when Durkon died (I would imagine that, at a previous Godsmoot, the gods had agreed that another Godsmoot would automatically be called the moment only one gate was standing).

[Metastachydium]

Manual of the Planes's version was NE - that might be it.

I think in some editions, Niflheim (Hel's divine domain according to MotP) is sited in Hades on the Great Wheel, too.

Those are correct and they may have influenced me.

There's also a visual cue to this effect. The entry pool to where Hel's domain is shares a colour with that belonging to the "Nothing Matters" plane, which is generally understood to be the Stickverse equivalent of Hades.

[Tzardok]

Good find. It should of course be noted that living in a plane doesn't mean you share its alignment. In the canonical Great Wheel, Sutur and Thrym both dwell in Ysgard as neighbours of the Norse gods, and Hades himself was Lawful Neutral in 2e and still lived in the deepest parts of the plane that shares his name.

[Metastachydium]

Good find. It should of course be noted that living in a plane doesn't mean you share its alignment. In the canonical Great Wheel, Sutur and Thrym both dwell in Ysgard as neighbours of the Norse gods, and Hades himself was Lawful Neutral in 2e and still lived in the deepest parts of the plane that shares his name.

Granted, but it's there.

♣

An unrelated remark: Big Purple is depicted as wielding an axe in the main comic as well when Thor reminisces about their spat early on.

[Tzardok]

Link included. Thank you.

[ZhonLord]

I personally don't think so. We have ample evidence of Chaotic beings being able to do longterm, multilayered planing (many official adventures are based on the intricate schemes of demon lords, for example, and Lord Shojo is a pretty effective Chaotic Good schemer), and most sources on yugoloths (most of them from 2e, because 3.x doesn't give a hoot about them) make them out as the most consumate and tricky schemers of all fiends. It would be something different if she were to, I dunno, keep her plans in numbered and organized folders with checklists or something like that.

I feel like she's Neutral Evil, but I lack the ability to put this feeling into words or substantiate it in any way, so I didn't include it.

Fair enough I suppose.

[littlebum2002]

So here's the problem. You're reframing the issue. You may not even realize you're doing it, but you are. Sure, its reasonable to suggest an Evil lerson might think others think the same way they do. But that's generalizing both the evil people and the others. Its like me saying that in a room of 25 people, there's a 50/50 chance two people share the same birthday, which is significantly different than saying that if you are in a room eith 24 other people there is a 50/50 chance you you will share a birtbday with one of them. Going specific drastically changes things.

First off, Malack hides his vampirism, and directly obfuscates whether his god, and in fact he himself, are Evil to Durkon. But not only that, this isnt Evil-person-to-other-person we're talking about here. This is high-priest-to-deity. Sure, an Evil person may assume others think the way he does. But a high goddamn priest, who has served his deity for centuries? It's reasonable for him to be confused on the acceptance of industrialized mass-murder with that relationship?

No, man. Not gonna accept that.

You're making a good point, I forgot Malack was the High Priest. I do need to point out, however, that Redcloak is the High Priest of his deity and hasn't the slightest idea what his deity wants, other than that which was told to him when he donned the cloak. But yes I agree, the evidence is certainly pointing toward him being Evil.

[Peelee]

Redcloak is the High Priest of his deity and hasn't the slightest idea what his deity wants

This is the problem with needleds embellishment, it weakens your point far more than you would otherwise expect. Redcloak mnows exactly what his deity wants - word of author is thst the message via Jirix is exactly what Redcloak understood it to be. But that aside, even if he took that wrong, presumably Redcloak still has some idea that, say, enacting a mass culling of all goblins that arent purple in the hopes of purifying the goblinoid races would not be something TDO would really be in favor of, deapite TDO being a purple goblin deity. For example.

[Metastachydium]

Something that might not be indicative of much: in the course of the fight with the giants, V is assaulted by a dire bat summoned by Thrym's clergy. The bat does not display the usual cosmetic changes that set apart normal and Celestial/Fiendish animals. As far as I can see, this tells us one of two things: Thrym either has druids in his employ (not impossible, since reportedly, we find some of those even among the High Priests); or he grants the Animal domain and one of the clerics used SNA4 to summon two bats one of which we've never seen (possibly because it was sent off in another direction to scout or something).

[Tzardok]

Blackwing calls it an "Evil Demon Bat". Odds are pretty good that it's meant to be Fiendish.

[Metastachydium]

Blackwing calls it an "Evil Demon Bat". Odds are pretty good that it's meant to be Fiendish.

Yeah. V also adds it probably came from the pit of Tartarus. Damn. I liked my version better (and shouldn't rely on my memory when the strips are available).

Edit: Wait! Doesn't that mean we have a possible name drop for Thrym's home plane?

[Tzardok]

Not necessarily. Thrym's homeplane in canon Great Wheel is Ysgard (Valhalla). His clerics still can summon chaotic evil fiendish creatures from, well, Abyss, Tartarus etc.

Besides that, is that something people want? Homeplanes of deities? If yes, I can add them where we know them.

[137beth]

So, maybe I'm missing something, and it's been a few years since I reread Book V, but when was Nergal called the high priest of Nergal? We know he's a cleric of Nergal, but is he the high priest?

[Peelee]

So, maybe I'm missing something, and it's been a few years since I reread Book V, but when was Nergal called the high priest of Nergal? We know he's a cleric of Nergal, but is he the high priest?

Well this is a little awkward...

I don't recall it even been said or hinted at that Malack is Nergal's High Priest

Other than when Malack said he was, you mean?

[JT]

Well this is a little awkward...

Malack responds to Elan's question about whether Malack is high priest for the Imperial Blood chick by saying that Nale (mistaken identity) of course knows that he, Malack, is both high priest and personal advisor to the Empress.

Nowhere did Elan/Nale ask or imply that he was asking about where in the church hierarchy Malack was. So the response by Malack should -- I believe -- be parsed as saying that he is "(high priest and personal spiritual advisor) to the Empress" and not as saying that he is "high priest (of Nerghal) and personal spiritual advisor to the Empress."

At the least, there is ambiguity, and the quote neither supports, nor refutes, the claim that Malack is the high priest of his church.

[Peelee]

Malack responds to Elan's question about whether Malack is high priest for the Imperial Blood chick by saying that Nale (mistaken identity) of course knows that he, Malack, is both high priest and personal advisor to the Empress.

Nowhere did Elan/Nale ask or imply that he was asking about where in the church hierarchy Malack was. So the response by Malack should -- I believe -- be parsed as saying that he is "(high priest and personal spiritual advisor) to the Empress" and not as saying that he is "high priest (of Nerghal) and personal spiritual advisor to the Empress."

At the least, there is ambiguity, and the quote neither supports, nor refutes, the claim that Malack is the high priest of his church.

All fair points. And yet, in the absense of anyone else laying claim to the title of Nergal's high priest, I'm gonna go ahead and assign that role to the one person who did claim to be high priest.

[hroþila]

Sure, it might well be that Malack was only the high priest of the Empire of Blood and not the high priest of the Church of Nergal. It is arguably the more parsimonious reading of the text. Similarly, the high priest of the Twelve Gods in Azure City was almost definitely the head of the Azurite church and not the sole representative of all the Twelve Gods at a godsmoot. Terminology doesn't need (and usually isn't) exclusive.

I just don't think it matters much in this context. Malack is still a high-level, high-ranking, ostensibly intelligent cleric of Nergal who I trust not to get his god so hilariously wrong on something as fundamental as this.

[ZhonLord]

Would King Dvalin be lawful good for caring about the dwarves despite being bound to obey their votes, or Lawful Neutral for holding to protocol and vote above even whether the decision is good for his subjects?

[Tzardok]

Difficult to say. One could even make an argument for "Lawful Evil, but loyal to dwarfkind". Unlikely, but possible.

Edit: For what it's worth, if I had to guess I'd choose Lawful Neutral.

[Kish]

Lawful Neutral.

If he was Lawful Good, it would have occurred to him that he doesn't actually need to get confirmation that his people don't want him to condemn them to horrific eternal slavery.

[Jasdoif]

If he was Lawful Good, it would have occurred to him that he doesn't actually need to get confirmation that his people don't want him to condemn them to horrific eternal slavery.

Or for an alternate take: he's decided that sparing them from horrific eternal slavery is not his obligation; relaying the result of a vote, regardless of the consequences, is. A glorified mouthpiece does not have a moral stance to call "good".

[Peelee]

Lawful Neutral.

If he was Lawful Good, it would have occurred to him that he doesn't actually need to get confirmation that his people don't want him to condemn them to horrific eternal slavery.

Unless the belief that deified him also forces him to always check with them no matter what. Loki cant not lie if he wants ro, unless it's to Thor. I doubt that the rules work differently for Dvalin.

[Jasdoif]

Unless the belief that deified him also forces him to always check with them no matter what. Loki cant not lie if he wants ro, unless it's to Thor. I doubt that the rules work differently for Dvalin.

I'm a little confused....Are you suggesting that Dvalin is lying, Loki-esque, when he says he doesn't want to condemn his people to Hel and/or that he's obligated to "obey the will of the council"? Or are you suggesting that Dvalin's alignment doesn't reflect Dvalin's alignment?

[Tzardok]

No, Peelee is suggesting that even a Lawful Good Dvalin may be incapable of not obeying his oath, just like Loki is incapable of being honest, as this aspect got hard-coded into their divine make-up.

I personally disagree with the notion that Dvalin obeying his oath must mean he's not Good. Keeping your word is a large part of what makes a Lawful person Lawful, and him choosing to honor it doesn't mean he's not Good (or too stupid to guess what his people want), just that he's more Lawful than Good. Similiar to how devils will twist their word, but never outright break a contract, a Lawful being's word is in sacrosanct, and him choosing to disregard his oath "just this once" "because it's important (read: inconvenient) right now" would mean he's failing to uphold his alignment.