Stats for the Stats God! The Deities of OOTS

[Metastachydium]

I'd personally bet on Davlin being Lawful Good, but, yeah, Lawful Neutral, I can see an argument for. It is, at the very least, a dumb move if not an Evil move to honor your oath at this point.

[Sighs.] Lawful is still =/= dumb.

[woweedd]

[Sighs.] Lawful is still =/= dumb.

No, but choosing to follow your oath to the grave of LITERALLY EVERYONE is...Not Good.

[Peelee]

No, but choosing to follow your oath to the grave of LITERALLY EVERYONE is...Not Good.

I agree. But in Dvalin's case, it may not be a choice.

[Kish]

I agree. But in Dvalin's case, it may not be a choice.

I remember, in one of these discussion threads, speculating that Hel may be the terrible person she is in part or in whole because the Northern mortals know the goddess of death is a vicious sadist.

Thinking about it now, I think that is probably not the case, because she seemed at best pretty self-centered and obnoxious when Loki pushed her and Thor into the bet. But. Hypothetically. Suppose she was True Neutral or Lawful Neutral in some previous version. Or...Suppose that, in some future world, the Northern mortals believe that death is a kind and benevolent force and its deity definitionally gentle and loving, and Hel perforce becomes Lawful Good.

Either way, this Hel is evil.

And I would say that whatever alignment Dvalin was when he was a mortal, the version of Dvalin who was prepared to send all dwarves to Hel if the result of a Council vote said to is Lawful Neutral.

("What alignment are dwarves?" is also kind of a tricky one. 3.5ed D&D traditionally states that dwarves are Lawful Good, and then describes them as greedy, violent, xenophobic, reactionary racists. So yeah.)

[Metastachydium]

No, but choosing to follow your oath to the grave of LITERALLY EVERYONE is...Not Good.

I agree. But in Dvalin's case, it may not be a choice.

Again, we don't know that he does that. The context allows for many different readings of what Dvalin insisting on the vote means (I drew up scenarios where it would imply he's LG or NE (such is the nature of data deficiency!) myself), and the validity of each reading varies based on whether Dvalin knows/suspects the vote is going to be interfered with.

1. If he knows and still lets it happen, I would argue he is probably NOT Lawful at all: he swore an oath to consult the council of dwarven elders before making decisions of such a magnitude. Such an oath does NOT require Lawful!Dvalin to accept or even acknowledge the result if he has reason to suspect he actually consulted a bunch of vampire weirdos instead of the Council.

2. Now, if he believes the vote will not be tampered with, a NaiveGood!Dvalin has every reason to also believe that the elders won't ask for dishonourable death upon all dwarves, including themselves, so he is NOT following any oath to the grave of literally everyone, but rather has the cake and eats it. There is no contradiction.

[Tzardok]

The oath wasn't just to consult the council in matters that affect all clans, it's to obey the council's will in such matters.

[Metastachydium]

Well, yes, but that still doesn't miraculously make the Exarch and Sandy the council of dwarven elders, nor does it mean that Dvalin doesn't trust the council to do the Good Thing, so my points stand.

[dancrilis]

The oath wasn't just to consult the council in matters that affect all clans, it's to obey the council's will in such matters.

If Dvalin wanted he could likely fairly claim that those who cast a vote under the effects of domination magic were not expressing their will and so he may have discounted such in favour of merely those who voted without such interference when weighing what the will of the council was - we will likely never know.

[Peelee]

Again, we don't know that he does that.

That would indeed be why i have used non-commital wording every time i comment on it, yes.

[Tzardok]

Well, yes, but that still doesn't miraculously make the Exarch and Sandy the council of dwarven elders, nor does it mean that Dvalin doesn't trust the council to do the Good Thing, so my points stand.

Just wanted everything to be accurate. I'm Lawful that way.

[Metastachydium]

That would indeed be why i have used non-commital wording every time i comment on it, yes.

About that… See, I don't think there is a scenario where Dvalin is both Lawful and knows that his obeying the council's decision causes everyone to die. He's either
a. aware that the vote will be tampered with, in which case the Lawful thing is to ignore the result (if for no other reason, simply because the oath doesn't apply anymore); or
b. not aware of Hel's intended interference, in which case his abiding by the oath is not guaranteed and not even likely to get the world destroyed.

I don't think analyzing a scenario (i.e. "Dvalin is aware that he is killing everyone, but does so anyway because of the oath") that I deem to be based on false premises can meaningfully further the discussion at hand.

Just wanted everything to be accurate. I'm Lawful that way.

Now, that I have respect for!

[Peelee]

About that… See, I don't think there is a scenario where Dvalin is both Lawful and knows that his obeying the council's decision causes everyone to die. He's either
a. aware that the vote will be tampered with, in which case the Lawful thing is to ignore the result (if for no other reason, simply because the oath doesn't apply anymore); or
b. not aware of Hel's intended interference, in which case his abiding by the oath is not guaranteed and not even likely to get the world destroyed.

I don't think analyzing a scenario (i.e. "Dvalin is aware that he is killing everyone, but does so anyway because of the oath") that I deem to be based on false premises can meaningfully further the discussion at hand.

OK, again, it may be that Dvalin literally can't not abide by the council's vote. Let's say he knows full well it's being tampered with. Doesn't matter. If he must abide by the vote, then he must abide by the vote. Alignment is irrelevant to this if it's the case. What he wants to do would be irrelevant to what he is able to do. For an example, see Loki wanting to tell Hel about the Dark One but being literally unable to.

Gods don't work on "have absolutely unfettered free will" just like mortals do. Gods can be constrained by what their people believe about them. Dvalin may be literally unable to not abide by the vote of the council. If this is the case, it doesn't matter what his alignment is. It doesn't matter if he knows its rigged. He would have to abide by the results regardless of anything because that's how this world works.

[Metastachydium]

OK, again, it may be that Dvalin literally can't not abide by the council's vote. Let's say he knows full well it's being tampered with. Doesn't matter. If he must abide by the vote, then he must abide by the vote. Alignment is irrelevant to this if it's the case. What he wants to do would be irrelevant to what he is able to do. For an example, see Loki wanting to tell Hel about the Dark One but being literally unable to.

Gods don't work on "have absolutely unfettered free will" just like mortals do. Gods can be constrained by what their people believe about them. Dvalin may be literally unable to not abide by the vote of the council. If this is the case, it doesn't matter what his alignment is. It doesn't matter if he knows its rigged. He would have to abide by the results regardless of anything because that's how this world works.

I know how Stickverse!gods work. And it is perfectly irrelevant for our purposes. Why? Let's take a look:

I must consult the dwarven Council of Clans before coming to any decision. (…) I swore an oath to obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans.

Emphases mine. Dvalin never swore to heed the advice of two vampire randos; if he knows that the result is not the will of the duly appointed dwarves, he has no obligation to acknowledge it, and that his followers believe that he is to obey the dwarven Council of Clans doesn't affect that in any way, because what he wouldn't obey in this scenario is not that.

[Jasdoif]

What he wants to do would be irrelevant to what he is able to do. For an example, see Loki wanting to tell Hel about the Dark One but being literally unable to.

Which doesn't change that Loki didn't tell Hel about the Dark One, nor obviate the consequences of him not telling Hel about the Dark One (most obviously, Hel not knowing what Loki knows about the Dark One).


To get back to the topic: if you're trying to say that actions shouldn't be factors of alignment in and of themselves, okay; but unless you're creating an alignment system with the specific intent of showing "actions speak louder than words" by contradiction, I don't think excluding the medium in which motivations interact is going to result in anything worthwhile. Similarly, if you're trying to say that the alignment system is ill-suited for minds that are more (overtly) susceptible to ambient external influences than ours are, okay; but that only exceeds side-note-level relevance if it's followed through to not applying alignment to them, and an argument with such a foundational target needs to be made directly.

[Peelee]

I know how Stickverse!gods work. And it is perfectly irrelevant for our purposes. Why? Let's take a look:



Emphases mine. Dvalin never swore to heed the advice of two vampire randos; if he knows that the result is not the will of the duly appointed dwarves, he has no obligation to acknowledge it, and that his followers believe that he is to obey the dwarven Council of Clans doesn't affect that in any way, because what he wouldn't obey in this scenario is not that.

It sounds like you're trying to say the equivalent of "no officer, i wasn't driving, I was travelling, this is not a commercial vehicle." Doesn't matter if there are vampires around. Doesn't matter if Dvalin knows it. If he is bound by the dwarf's beliefs that he must obey the will of the council, then he must obey the will of the council. If he's bound by that, then it really is that simple.

[Metastachydium]

It sounds like you're trying to say the equivalent of "no officer, i wasn't driving, I was travelling." Doesn't matter if there are vampires around. Doesn't matter if Dvalin knows it. If he is bound by the dwarf's beliefs that he must obey the will of the council, then he must obey the will of the council. If he's bound by that, then it really is that simple.

He must obey the will of the Council. The Exarch and Sandy are not the Council. And your analogy doesn't work. What you have is the officer watching the owner of the car duct-taped all unconscious into the driver's seat and an obvious carjacker with their hands on the wheel. Or a contract where a signatory party agrees to pay for Product X on delivery and the other shows up with a box of mouldy carrots demanding to be paid.

[dancrilis]

Doesn't matter if there are vampires around. Doesn't matter if Dvalin knows it. If he is bound by the dwarf's beliefs that he must obey the will of the council, then he must obey the will of the council. If he's bound by that, then it really is that simple.

I think the point that is being made against this (unless I am reading wrong) is that if a person who is CE becomes a deity and they are worshipped as a LG deity then if they are bound by their worshippers to be only Lawful and Good then their alignment would be LG as a deity, regardless of potential personal desires (if they are even allowed those).
As such the arguement is that if Dvalin is so tightly bound then he would be LN as his essence is bound to follow Law regardless of morality.

I don't personally adhere to this - I just don't think we have enough on Dvalin (or how he would have acted in the event that the vampire plot had finished the council vote) to say anything really about his alignment other then he seems fairly lawful.

[Kish]

It sounds like you're trying to say the equivalent of "no officer, i wasn't driving, I was travelling, this is not a commercial vehicle."

Really? Because it sounds much more to me like, "No officer, I wasn't driving, the guy who was in the driver's seat was."

He didn't swear to obey any vote result that got passed to him regardless of whether it was the will of the council or the result of tampering: he swore to obey the will of the council.

That will, as expressed by the only council members who had a will of their own at the time, being, "No! Clan Cobalt votes No!" "Clan Stonebrow votes No, too!" "Oh gods, they're both right. Hold your votes! Nobody vote!" and "What have we done?"

[Peelee]

He must obey the will of the Council. The Exarch and Sandy are not the Council. And your analogy doesn't work. What you have is the officer watching the owner of the car duct-taped all unconscious into the driver's seat and an obvious carjacker with their hands on the wheel. Or a contract where a signatory party agrees to pay for Product X on delivery and the other shows up with a box of mouldy carrots demanding to be paid.

Yeah, and a citizen traveling in their car isnt in a commercial vehicle. Hel thinks it will work. All the non-dominated dwarves who are part of the council think it will work. You do not think it will work.

Yeah, im gonna go ahead and say hes probably bound to whatever the council votes on. Since everything in the comic points in that direction and nothing at all indicates otherwise.

Really? Because it sounds much more to me like, "No officer, I wasn't driving, the guy who was in the driver's seat was."

See above. Im not the one saying "well if ee look at the exact words being used and parse them in a very soecific way...".

Dude obeys the will of the council. The council is telling him their will. I aint the one trying to get all rules-lawyery on this.

[Metastachydium]

Really? Because it sounds much more to me like, "No officer, I wasn't driving, the guy who was in the driver's seat was."

He didn't swear to obey any vote result that got passed to him regardless of whether it was the will of the council or the result of tampering: he swore to obey the will of the council.

That will, as expressed by the only council members who had a will of their own at the time, being, "No! Clan Cobalt votes No!" "Clan Stonebrow votes No, too!" "Oh gods, they're both right. Hold your votes! Nobody vote!" and "What have we done?"

Precisely.

Yeah, and a citizen traveling in their car isnt in a commercial vehicle.

Sorry, still no. This is not a terminological issue. The Exarch and Sandy are not dwarven clan elders. It's as simple as that. If you walk into the chamber of a legislative body with a gun and press all the voting buttons in plain view of the cameras, the "result" of the "vote" will mean jack.

Hel thinks it will work. All the non-dominated dwarves who are part of the council think it will work. You do not think it will work.

Yeah, im gonna go ahead and say hes probably bound to whatever the council votes on. Since everything in the comic points in that direction and nothing at all indicates otherwise.

You are forgetting a crucial detail: we don't know if Dvalin knows

Dude obeys the will of the council. The council is telling him their will. I aint the one trying to get all rules-lawyery on this.

Dude obeys the will of the council. A thir party tells him their (i.e. the third party's) will. If Dvalin, for whatever reason, doesn't realize the vote's been hijacked, he will obey it so far as we can tell. We have no idea if Dvalin realizes that much and how that (would) affect his decision making if he does. Sorry.

(Edit: Also, ignoring both the letter and the spirit of a law is not Lawful, so I fail to see what your theory can tell us about Dvalin's alignment.)

[Peelee]

You are forgetting a crucial detail: we don't know if Dvalin knows

I thought i has been very clear on this but apparently i have bem mistaken. Let me be perfectly clear.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF DVALIN KNOWS.

All that matters is that he is absolutely bound to do what the cpuncil tells him (which may or may not be the case, but i suspect is). If he is, then the council votes and he abides by the vote. Every character who knows how it works in comic acts like that is how it works. We actually see the process of it working like that. Your insistence that it does not, despite all the characters who know how it works acting otherwise. I do not know why you hold to such insistence, but it is clear i will not be able to dissuade you (granted, i should have come to this conclusion long ago when the comic itself failed to dissuade you).

[woweedd]

I thought i has been very clear on this but apparently i have bem mistaken. Let me be perfectly clear.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF DVALIN KNOWS.

All that matters is that he is absolutely bound to do what the cpuncil tells him (which may or may not be the case, but i suspect is). If he is, then the council votes and he abides by the vote. Every character who knows how it works in comic acts like that is how it works. We actually see the process of it working like that. Your insistence that it does not, despite all the characters who know how it works acting otherwise. I do not know why you hold to such insistence, but it is clear i will not be able to dissuade you (granted, i should have come to this conclusion long ago when the comic itself failed to dissuade you).

I mean, if he's forced to follow the will of the council, as he understands it, above all else...That would make him Lawful Neutral, right? Like, regardless of why he is, he still is. I imagine he would declare the dominated vote invalid if he knew about it, but he doesn't: As the comic notes, "The Gods can only see and hear each other". And it's not utterly implausible for the Council to vote the other way un-dominated: Dwarves are, by the nature of the very oath that led to this nature, a culture of pathological self-sacrifice: They may very well consider their entire race being dammed to Hel a fair price for saving the souls of every other sapient being on the planet. Overall, i'd bet on Davlin being Lawful Good, given that he does seem to be remembered as a good king by the Dwarves, if perhaps putting a bit too much emphasis on the Law bit (hey, a lot like Durkon used to be, wonder if that's part of the theme here...), but I could see an argument for Lawful Neutral. Choosing to uphold his oath under the circumstances is certainly a Lawful act and certainly not a Good one. Doesn't make him non-Good, mind, just more connected to the Lawful half (and also, perhaps, not the sharpest).

[Metastachydium]

I thought i has been very clear on this but apparently i have bem mistaken. Let me be perfectly clear.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF DVALIN KNOWS.

All that matters is that he is absolutely bound to do what the cpuncil tells him (which may or may not be the case, but i suspect is). If he is, then the council votes and he abides by the vote. Every character who knows how it works in comic acts like that is how it works. We actually see the process of it working like that. Your insistence that it does not, despite all the characters who know how it works acting otherwise.

Whether if Dvalin is aware of the intended fraud or not influences his final vote or not NEVER comes up explicitly NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIMES YOU REPEAT THAT IT IS SELF-EVIDENT TO YOU. What we are shown is perfectly consistent with the reading that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin being deceived. That Roy is absolutely convinced that the vote cannot result in the world getting undone until after the Exarch whom the gods do not hear stupidly reveals what Hel's plan is to Greg's mild displeasure points in the same way. The rest is your personal headcanon, and "it doesn't matter if Dvalin knows because it doesn't matter if Dvalin knows" is an obtuse circular reasoning anyhow.

I do not know why you hold to such insistence, but it is clear i will not be able to dissuade you (granted, i should have come to this conclusion long ago when the comic itself failed to dissuade you).

So, all in all: stop confusing the comic with your personal reading of the comic. That may help with understanding how people seeing the same things can reach different conclusions.

[Kish]

Meanwhile, my position is that Dvalin is probably bound to obey whatever gets passed to him as "this is the result of the Council's vote" by something...

But it's sure not by any reasonable reading of "I swore to follow the will of the Council." This isn't rules-lawyering unless suggesting that words mean things is rules-lawyering. Nor is it parsing, just reading.

I think the distinction would be entirely lost on Dvalin. I think most likely, what binds him to swallow the results of the vote that get passed to him without thought is that the concept "maybe procedure being followed leads to something that wasn't what you intended" makes his brain do a division by zero error...

...because he's Lawful Neutral.

[hroþila]

As the comic notes, "The Gods can only see and hear each other"

In bed At the Godsmoot. There's no particular reason why Dvalin shouldn't be aware of what's being done quite openly in Firmament, even if he can only hear his own priest during the Council of Clans itself as part of the Zot! spell (assuming it's exactly the same one used at the Godsmoot).

That element of the story never quite worked for me personally. I don't think it's particularly Lawful to stick to a vote you positively know to have been manipulated, not when you swore to obey the will of the council, and I personally think it's implausible for Dvalin not to realize that the will of some councilors has been annulled here. I dunno, like it's a bit too silly to hang such an important plot element on it. But this is extremely subjective, especially since silliness has always been such an integral part of this comic.

(I do think it's probably the case that Dvalin would accept the result of the vote even if he knew some councilors had been dominated, because he's probably supposed to be the kind of inflexible bureaucratic Lawful that sticks to procedure no matter what, much like the councilors who make a note to fully investigate the allegations that some of them are being dominated after the meeting despite how obvious and urgent the matter is. To me that does suggest Lawful Neutral rather than Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, because it's like... pure Lawfulness with little room for anything else)

[Peelee]

Whether if Dvalin is aware of the intended fraud or not influences his final vote or not NEVER comes up explicitly NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIMES YOU REPEAT THAT IT IS SELF-EVIDENT TO YOU. What we are shown is perfectly consistent with the reading that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin being deceived. That Roy is absolutely convinced that the vote cannot result in the world getting undone until after the Exarch whom the gods do not hear stupidly reveals what Hel's plan is to Greg's mild displeasure points in the same way. The rest is your personal headcanon, and "it doesn't matter if Dvalin knows because it doesn't matter if Dvalin knows" is an obtuse circular reasoning anyhow.



So, all in all: stop confusing the comic with your personal reading of the comic. That may help with understanding how people seeing the same things can reach different conclusions.

So here's the thing. Nobody ever says or implies that they plan to deceive Dvalin. This reading is "consistent" with the narrative only in that it is not ever discussed, and thus not ever dismissed. Conversely, we are directly told that Dvalin will do whatever the council tells him, and yet you wamt to die on the hill of a critical reading into the semantics of the exact verbiage used to claim a technicality. But this isn't a term of art. This is the author telling us "hey here's how this works so you can see the danger". Its a plain and simple way of communicating what is going to happen - ie that Dvalin will do what the council tells him to do. It doesn't matter that they're dominated by vampires. It doesn't matter that they're being told what to do. And, presumably, it doesn't matter if Dvalin even knows about it.

Imean, if you want to talk about personal headcanons and the webcomic, your entire argument had zero foundation beyond that nobody has said it isn't the case. Mine rests on "what if we just believe what Dvalin tells us and what Hel and the dwarven councilors fully believe to be the case?"

[Metastachydium]

So here's the thing. Nobody ever says or implies that they plan to deceive Dvalin.

Meh. Again, Greg does explicitly state that the plan being revealed ahead of time is not ideal and the Exarch pontificates at length about how they are using trickery and deceit.

This reading is "consistent" with the narrative only in that it is not ever discussed, and thus not ever dismissed. Conversely, we are directly told that Dvalin will do whatever the council tells him, and yet you wamt to die on the hill of a critical reading into the semantics of the exact verbiage used to claim a technicality. But this isn't a term of art. This is the author telling us "hey here's how this works so you can see the danger". Its a plain and simple way of communicating what is going to happen - ie that Dvalin will do what the council tells him to do. It doesn't matter that they're dominated by vampires. It doesn't matter that they're being told what to do. And, presumably, it doesn't matter if Dvalin even knows about it.

Noipe. That is your personal reading that is entirely dependent on everyone else accepting that your premise is correct. The difference between the dwarven Council of Clans and two non-dwarven randos sent by a third party is not semantic, but rather factual. You are the one ready to die on the hill that Dvalin is somehow made so Lawful by his followers that he ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE LAW, ITS LETTER OR ITS SPIRIT.

Another quick analogy: this is an election fraud, so let's talk about election frauds. You fill out enough illegally acquired legitimate ballots yourself and destroy enough real ballots, and it would seem that your candidate won, because, say, 72% of all ballots that end up counted have your candidate's name on them. Do it on the counter of a police station in clear view of a camera, and you're busted. It's as simple as that.

Imean, if you want to talk about personal headcanons and the webcomic, your entire argument had zero foundation beyond that nobody has said it isn't the case. Mine rests on "what if we just believe what Dvalin tells us and what Hel and the dwarven councilors fully believe to be the case?"

What Dvalin tells us is not what you claim he tells us; what Hel and the dwarven councillors tell us only confirms that the risk is real and doesn't clearly indicate the why. You invented one possible reason and declared it the One True Canon Answer. It's not. It's plausible (you are the one insisting all possibilities other than your pet theory are invalid, mind you), but it's in your head. Sorry.

In bed At the Godsmoot. There's no particular reason why Dvalin shouldn't be aware of what's being done quite openly in Firmament, even if he can only hear his own priest during the Council of Clans itself as part of the Zot! spell (assuming it's exactly the same one used at the Godsmoot).

That's the point, really. There's no particular reason why he can't be aware, but there's no particular reason why he must be aware either. In fact, if we take a look at the only comparable vote, the full Moot, it is entirely plausible that the voting is "automated" and Dvalin only hears a bunch of Yes and No answers.

That element of the story never quite worked for me personally. I don't think it's particularly Lawful to stick to a vote you positively know to have been manipulated, not when you swore to obey the will of the council, and I personally think it's implausible for Dvalin not to realize that the will of some councilors has been annulled here. I dunno, like it's a bit too silly to hang such an important plot element on it. But this is extremely subjective, especially since silliness has always been such an integral part of this comic.

Yeah. I can relate. My main issue, though, was that the solution ended up quite inorganic: the whole thing was defused by using a loophole that we only learned about after the thing was over. It felt awkward.

More pertinently, yes, there is literally nothing Lawful about ignoring the law (in letter and spirit), so if Dvalin had to accept a result even if he knew it to be a product of brazen and clear fraud as Peelee believes he had to, that's not a terribly good argument for him being Lawful. Quite on the contrary, in fact.

[Tzardok]

I'd really like to see the stipulations of the Council of Clans right now. Who knows, maybe they have a section in there regarding councillors being mindcontrolled. Would surely give some clarity to this discussion.

[Kish]

That Roy is absolutely convinced that the vote cannot result in the world getting undone until after the Exarch whom the gods do not hear stupidly reveals what Hel's plan is to Greg's mild displeasure points in the same way.

I would also say that this is because "follow procedure even if it leads to your violating your oath" makes no sense to Roy. Because he's Lawful Good and Dvalin's...I've said it so many times by now. And it's one strip's final-panel punchline that Roy expects rational behavior from Lawful people, whereas Haley doesn't (and might have gone straight to "I'm sure he'll find some dumb reason to vote Yes.").

(Edited to add in response to Meta's latest post that Lawful means "ordered," not "obeys the law." "Is procedure being followed? Yes? I need know no more" is a quintessentially Lawful Neutral perspective.)

[Metastachydium]

I would also say that this is because "follow procedure even if it leads to your violating your oath" makes no sense to Roy. Because he's Lawful Good and Dvalin's...I've said it so many times by now. And it's one strip's final-panel punchline that Roy expects rational behavior from Lawful people, whereas Haley doesn't (and might have gone straight to "I'm sure he'll find some dumb reason to vote Yes.").

I hear you, but "I'm only really doing this because I swore an oath, so I'll go do it but violate that oath" still doesn't sound very Lawful to me.