Arceus Is An Overdeity!

[Bartmanhomer]

So anyway today I was looking at the recent VS Battle Wiki website to look up Arceus and Arceus's power level belongs to a Low 1-C (overdeity territory) Last time I check Arceus's power level was a 2-B or 2-A. But since the website update, a bit Arceus's power level is a Low 1-C. It has the same power level as D&D Overdeity Ao and's also a Low 1-C which makes perfect sense knowing how powerful Arceus is at that level.

[McNum]

Well, yeah, obviously. The games also sorta imply that we don't actually know the true form of Arceus, and the god-horse we all know is just a sliver of its power in a shape we can understand.

I think the games also imply that there's is only one Arceus. All other Pokémon exist in as many versions as games have been started where they feature in. But for all the multiverses of games being played, there is just the one Arceus.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, yeah, obviously. The games also sorta imply that we don't actually know the true form of Arceus, and the god-horse we all know is just a sliver of its power in a shape we can understand.

I think the games also imply that there's is only one Arceus. All other Pokémon exist in as many versions as games have been started where they feature in. But for all the multiverses of games being played, there is just the one Arceus.

You're right about that.

[TaiLiu]

I guess that makes sense. If the time and space Pokemon are gods, then I guess Arceus would be the god-god. Surprisingly vulnerable as a god-god, though. In the 12th movie they (or their avatar) get pretty close to dying. The Arceus Chronicles deify them much more.

I have mixed feelings about Arceus, though. Its status as the alpha really messes with Mew's possible origin story as the ancestor of all Pokemon. I might be a little biased.

Well, yeah, obviously. The games also sorta imply that we don't actually know the true form of Arceus, and the god-horse we all know is just a sliver of its power in a shape we can understand.

I think the games also imply that there's is only one Arceus. All other Pokémon exist in as many versions as games have been started where they feature in. But for all the multiverses of games being played, there is just the one Arceus.

I had no idea about either of those facts. Pretty neat.

[McNum]

I guess that makes sense. If the time and space Pokemon are gods, then I guess Arceus would be the god-god. Surprisingly vulnerable as a god-god, though. In the 12th movie they (or their avatar) get pretty close to dying. The Arceus Chronicles deify them much more.

I have mixed feelings about Arceus, though. Its status as the alpha really messes with Mew's possible origin story as the ancestor of all Pokemon. I might be a little biased.


I had no idea about either of those facts. Pretty neat.

Some of that was revealed in Pokémon Legends Arceus, and well, where else would it be revealed?

Spoiler: Pokémon Legends Arceus

Show

The game start off with you, the player (or your self-insert OC) meeting the true Arceus. Which is a vaguely horse-shaped golden glowing light. It then proceeds to steal your phone dump you in the past, and give you back your phone with infinite battery, a map app for the region, and the ability to receive texts from Arceus. "SEEK ALL POKÉMON!" it demands.

Anyway, plot happens, you meet the Sinnoh legends, catch one of each Pokémon in the game, and get the Azure Flute. You play it and a glowing staircase appears, leading up to Arceus' domain. Where Arceus awaits and basically goes "Thou has done well in seeking all Pokémon, now fight me!" And it doesn't mean in a Pokémon battle either, because that's a thing in Legends Arceus, you are a valid target for Pokémon attacks, too. And Arceus has some nasty attacks. I'm a fan of it using Judgment at a rhythm that will catch you if you spam dodge rolls. But that part where it cuts out the music, teleports away, and then smashes through reality, sending reality shards flying as it tries to tackle you is also neat.

Anyway, if you win, Arceus goes into exposition mode, hands you a Poké Ball with "some of my power" in it, and a Legend Plate, which is hax. (It makes Arceus able to change type mid-battle to whichever hits the opponent the hardest.)

Doing this also unlocks the ability to catch Arceus in Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. Which may or may not be the same god-horse shaped part of Arceus that you received in Legends.

[The Glyphstone]

Most franchises suffer from power creep. Pokemon suffers from lore creep.

[Buufreak]

I have mixed feelings about Arceus, though. Its status as the alpha really messes with Mew's possible origin story as the ancestor of all Pokemon. I might be a little biased.

I suppose you haven't seen the WWTBAM meme of "who is the first pokemon?" And the choices being bulbasaur, arceus, rhydon, and mew.

[Prime32]

I think the current implications are

• Arceus's "main body" lies outside space and time and can't fully enter it.
• Instead it interacts with the world through its "thousand hands". Arceus the Pokémon is one of these Hands (and is shaped sort of like a hand if you squint).
• Hands weren't made to fight but to create things and/or observe the world (they may or may not be the "stork" behind Pokémon Eggs); thus they're incidentally very strong in battle, but not invincible. Arceus is good enough at manipulating events that it rarely needs its Hands to fight directly in the first place.
• Dialga and Palkia (the pillars of Time and Space) were originally Hands, but in order to handle their special duties they had to change into more specialised forms with the ability to think independently.
• As a side-effect of creating Time and Space their "backbone" the Distortion World also came into existence, containing a serpentine pseudo-Hand known as Giratina. As Giratina is not a direct extension of Arceus, it initially rebelled against it, but was forced to submit and take on a more Hand-like form while in the material world.

[animorte]

I think the games also imply that there's is only one Arceus. All other Pokémon exist in as many versions as games have been started where they feature in. But for all the multiverses of games being played, there is just the one Arceus.

I've never been particularly fond of this concept. I've always felt like legendaries are referred to as such for a reason. There's only one.

This is in the same logic that a 12-year-old can capture the God Pokemon. So, anyway...

Still love the fandom, even if I haven't cared for as many of the games in a decade.

[HolyDraconus]

I've never been particularly fond of this concept. I've always felt like legendaries are referred to as such for a reason. There's only one.

This is in the same logic that a 12-year-old can capture the God Pokemon. So, anyway...

Still love the fandom, even if I haven't cared for as many of the games in a decade.

They threw logic out the window when they stated that mewtwo is man made, and as such is only one, then later on showed that there is at least two of it.

[TaiLiu]

Some of that was revealed in Pokémon Legends Arceus, and well, where else would it be revealed?

Spoiler: Pokémon Legends Arceus

Show

The game start off with you, the player (or your self-insert OC) meeting the true Arceus. Which is a vaguely horse-shaped golden glowing light. It then proceeds to steal your phone dump you in the past, and give you back your phone with infinite battery, a map app for the region, and the ability to receive texts from Arceus. "SEEK ALL POKÉMON!" it demands.

Anyway, plot happens, you meet the Sinnoh legends, catch one of each Pokémon in the game, and get the Azure Flute. You play it and a glowing staircase appears, leading up to Arceus' domain. Where Arceus awaits and basically goes "Thou has done well in seeking all Pokémon, now fight me!" And it doesn't mean in a Pokémon battle either, because that's a thing in Legends Arceus, you are a valid target for Pokémon attacks, too. And Arceus has some nasty attacks. I'm a fan of it using Judgment at a rhythm that will catch you if you spam dodge rolls. But that part where it cuts out the music, teleports away, and then smashes through reality, sending reality shards flying as it tries to tackle you is also neat.

Anyway, if you win, Arceus goes into exposition mode, hands you a Poké Ball with "some of my power" in it, and a Legend Plate, which is hax. (It makes Arceus able to change type mid-battle to whichever hits the opponent the hardest.)

Doing this also unlocks the ability to catch Arceus in Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. Which may or may not be the same god-horse shaped part of Arceus that you received in Legends.

Appreciate this Arceus info! Haven't played PLA (yet), so I wasn't aware. Arceus looks more like some kinda goat than a horse to me, though I'm not sure why.

Most franchises suffer from power creep. Pokemon suffers from lore creep.

I think Pokemon has power creep, too. Moves feel like they've become more powerful. Legendary Pokemon abilities, too. But they're improved some previously shoddy Pokemon, so some of the changes are positive.

I suppose you haven't seen the WWTBAM meme of "who is the first pokemon?" And the choices being bulbasaur, arceus, rhydon, and mew.

I'm not sure I have, but I get it:

• Bulbasaur is the first Pokemon in the Pokedex;
• Arceus is the first Pokemon in existence;
• Rhyhorn is the first Pokemon ever designed;
• Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon.

But Arceus's and Mew's stories contradict each other, which suggests that at least one story is untrue. That's not the case for the other two.

I think the current implications are

• Arceus's "main body" lies outside space and time and can't fully enter it.
• Instead it interacts with the world through its "thousand hands". Arceus the Pokémon is one of these Hands (and is shaped sort of like a hand if you squint).
• Hands weren't made to fight but to create things and/or observe the world (they may or may not be the "stork" behind Pokémon Eggs); thus they're incidentally very strong in battle, but not invincible. Arceus is good enough at manipulating events that it rarely needs its Hands to fight directly in the first place.
• Dialga and Palkia (the pillars of Time and Space) were originally Hands, but in order to handle their special duties they had to change into more specialised forms with the ability to think independently.
• As a side-effect of creating Time and Space their "backbone" the Distortion World also came into existence, containing a serpentine pseudo-Hand known as Giratina. As Giratina is not a direct extension of Arceus, it initially rebelled against it, but was forced to submit and take on a more Hand-like form while in the material world.

That's pretty neat. I wasn't aware of these implications before.

[animorte]

Arceus is the first Pokemon in existence;

Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon.

But Arceus's and Mew's stories contradict each other, which suggests that at least one story is untrue. That's not the case for the other two.

If Arceus exists "outside of space and time" then those two things can still reasonably be true, yes?

[TaiLiu]

If Arceus exists "outside of space and time" then those two things can still reasonably be true, yes?

Well:

1. Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon.
2. Arceus is a Pokemon.
3. Therefore, Mew is the ancestor of Arceus.

1. Arceus is the creator of all Pokemon (except itself).
2. Therefore, Arceus created Mew.

This leads to: Mew existed prior to Arceus, and Arceus existed prior to Mew. But if Arceus was outside of space and time then Mew couldn't exist prior to Arceus, which contradicts the story that Mew is the ancestor of Arceus.

[animorte]

This leads to: Mew existed prior to Arceus, and Arceus existed prior to Mew. But if Arceus was outside of space and time then Mew couldn't exist prior to Arceus, which contradicts the story that Mew is the ancestor of Arceus.

Sounds much too similar to the grandfather paradox, far beyond our comprehension!

[The Glyphstone]

If Mew creates Arceus, who once created exists outside of space and time, Arceus could be created by Mew and still retroactively exist before its own creation because casuality only functions within linear time. This allows it to create Mew, who then will later create it. It's not a paradox, it's a stable time loop.

[MCerberus]

There's a lot of tied up timelines in Pokemon universe's creation myth.

For Mew to be present with the intent on the pokemon world that means the Lake Trio must have already existed and been in place and thus the land and sea to be formed meaning mew would have had to create them, but I guess completely by accident? So it's really easier to think of Arceus as Ao: an unfathomable jerk that exists outside of causality occasionally amused by people trying to comprehend it.

Except this version sends children through wormholes hoping that their digestive system won't miss purified water. So pretty much we're going full Discworld on the upper Pantheon of the Pokeverse. The god characters that are bound to the planet though, those are generally just plain full of murderous rage. Easy to comprehend. And then there are the inter-dimensional realty destroying things, which I'm not sure are even in this timeline so we'll ignore for now.

[Ramza00]

Sounds much too similar to the grandfather paradox, far beyond our comprehension!

Takes the grandfather axe to the grandfather paradoxes

[Buufreak]

There's a lot of tied up timelines in Pokemon universe's creation myth.

For Mew to be present with the intent on the pokemon world that means the Lake Trio must have already existed and been in place and thus the land and sea to be formed meaning mew would have had to create them, but I guess completely by accident? So it's really easier to think of Arceus as Ao: an unfathomable jerk that exists outside of causality occasionally amused by people trying to comprehend it.

Except this version sends children through wormholes hoping that their digestive system won't miss purified water. So pretty much we're going full Discworld on the upper Pantheon of the Pokeverse. The god characters that are bound to the planet though, those are generally just plain full of murderous rage. Easy to comprehend. And then there are the inter-dimensional realty destroying things, which I'm not sure are even in this timeline so we'll ignore for now.

Create is being used alot here. Mew is just the common ancestor of all other pokemon (your arguments on the definition of all may vary). Mew didn't create anything. It just existed, did what things that exist do, and eventually other life came along.

[137beth]

Could either Arceus or Mew tell us whether catching Pokemon in Pokeballs is
a)Mind-control (and if so, why isn't the protagonist a villain)
b)A game abstraction where you actually talk with them off-screen and convince them to let you train them
c)Something else?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel like the lore of the games ever made much sense.

[Prime32]

Could either Arceus or Mew tell us whether catching Pokemon in Pokeballs is
a)Mind-control (and if so, why isn't the protagonist a villain)
b)A game abstraction where you actually talk with them off-screen and convince them to let you train them
c)Something else?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel like the lore of the games ever made much sense.

It's an unspoken custom, like how making eye contact with another Trainer means you're challenging them to a duel.
Most Pokémon love a decent fight, and will challenge a Trainer to see if they make a good partner. Even if they were attacking for some other reason, getting caught will still calm them down a bit out of respect for the Trainer's strength.
Poké Balls don't control Pokémon - there's even a mechanic where high-level Pokémon refuse to follow your orders unless you've proven yourself by winning Gym badges.

But villains like Team Rocket have been shown abusing Pokémon with whips, pain beams and mind-control machines.

EDIT: Also bear in mind that player characters are usually supposed to be extraordinary people with a knack for making friends - Trainers with a full party of 6 Pokémon are very rare (especially if they have multiple types).

[Buufreak]

But villains like Team Rocket have been shown abusing Pokémon with whips, pain beams and mind-control machines.

There is also the weirdness of shadow pokemon, where *mcguffin plot thing goes here* and you have to steal them from people who already stole them using a device specifically made for such a thing (because somehow pokeballs know if a pokemon is already caught and usually won't let it get caught again). THEN you need to befriend the shadow pokemon to the point that it stops being... that.

Coliseum and Gale of Darkness were weird.

[TaiLiu]

Sounds much too similar to the grandfather paradox, far beyond our comprehension!

In some sense, yes.

If Mew creates Arceus, who once created exists outside of space and time, Arceus could be created by Mew and still retroactively exist before its own creation because casuality only functions within linear time. This allows it to create Mew, who then will later create it. It's not a paradox, it's a stable time loop.

I'd politely disagree for a couple of reasons.

First: your argument contradicts itself. If causality "only functions within linear time," then surely Mew couldn't create Arceus who then creates Mew. Time loops aren't linear!

Second: Arceus couldn't have been created if it exists outside of space and time. At time t, Arceus doesn't exist. At time t+1, it does (i.e. it was created). Well, if that's so, then Arceus isn't outside of space and time. We know it exists within time because there was a time when it didn't exist, and then a time when it does. The only way Arceus could be outside of space and time is if it's eternal (i.e. it wasn't created).

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel like the lore of the games ever made much sense.

I don't really think the franchise began with much lore. It's slowly developed over the years.

EDIT: Also bear in mind that player characters are usually supposed to be extraordinary people with a knack for making friends - Trainers with a full party of 6 Pokémon are very rare (especially if they have multiple types).

That's a smart thought. For sure player characters are prodigies... but I never considered them social prodigies.

[Lord Raziere]

Let me clarify this:

Mew Pokedex Entries:

Because it can learn any move, some people began research to see if it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.

Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.

Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.

Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.

Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.

Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.

It's very intelligent and can use an incredible variety of moves. Many believe that all other Pokémon are descendants of this one.*

Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.

Arceus Pokedex Entries:

It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.

It is told in mythology that this Pokémon was born before the universe even existed.

It is said to have emerged from an egg in a place where there was nothing, then shaped the world.

According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world.

It is said to have emerged from an egg in a place where there was nothing, then shaped the world.

It is the heavenly fount from which pours the light that shines across Hisui. Its luminance guides and protects all Pokémon. Hisuian mythology states that Arceus is the creator of all things.

With both of these, we can find certain patterns to their entries:
repeatedly it is said that Mew is believed to the ancestor of all other pokemon
repeatedly it is said that Arceus is said in universe mythology to have created the universe.

neither of these are statements of objective fact. now its quite clear that Arceus is a deity from Legends Arceus, I'd believe they are even omnipotent and such, but humans aren't, so if the actual way that the world was made or how Mew was born wasn't known to humans and these stories just arose naturally from different cultures about these pokemon, it'd be pretty plausible. If Arceus came first and just created Mew with every DNA of every pokemon that will ever exist across all of time and space including himself.....well he is omnipotent and we can forgive a bunch of mere human scientists thinking otherwise. Similarly if Mew laid Arceus's egg who then created the universe and Mew being the potential of all pokemon within itself, somehow gave birth to a pokemon more powerful than themselves? thats fine, this is all strange high level elemental animal magic anyways. if neither of these things are true? oh well, but it'd be pretty dumb of the companies involved to confirm this sort of thing one way or another or to flip the table and say it was some third thing after decades of lore build up. personally I'm fine with Arceus and Mew's origins being completely paradoxical and incomprehensible to anyone who wants a simple straightforward answer given how powerful they are, as those two probably don't care, they're divine beings they don't have to make sense to some random silly human. let them mutually create each other or do all sorts of crazy shenanigans to both be the originator at the same time, sensible answers are the worst answers when it comes to this kind of out there nonsense.

[animorte]

Let me clarify this:

Mew Pokedex Entries:

Arceus Pokedex Entries:

With both of these, we can find certain patterns to their entries:
repeatedly it is said that Mew is believed to the ancestor of all other pokemon
repeatedly it is said that Arceus is said in universe mythology to have created the universe.

Thanks for pulling this up! The unknown facts make for a better immersive experience, as far as I'm concerned.