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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3.5")

    Hello adventurer's

    This is a continuation of my previous post, and an answer to the comments made by many of you.
    Previous post "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3.5"
    I already want to say thanks for each reply on that post, that helped me to think about many things.


    Firstly, I will be sharing the ideas I had, secondly I will share some things I ask some help to "fix"

    The main objective is to make a dnd 3.5 but with a way more fluid combat, with less calculation and dice rolling;
    The secundary objectives are to make it a more newbie friendly system, and make creativity and opmization more compatible; and also make martial combatants to scale better, altho this would be a class features matter.

    I would LOVE to hear your toughts on this, specially in the "Rules" part

    ---------------------
    My main ideas

    Attributes:
    Instead of calculating attribute modifiers, the integral number is used (1 str = 1 point of damage and hit), with 0 being the base number.
    -10 means paralysis, and death in the case of constitution.
    (To roll an attribute, you would have -2, and roll a d6 add to it)
    Objective: Make it a bit easier to calculate, and more newbie friendly.

    Defense:
    Will remain the same

    Hit and damage
    The hit uses a d20 plus other modifiers.
    Damage will not use dice normally. Weapons and other attacks have a fixed amount of damage, plus other bonuses.
    BAB multi-attacks will be replaced by multipliers (this will be elaborated further)
    Objective: Make the combat way more fluid. The random factor of damage rolls is not that relevant, and we already have the random factor on the hit dice.

    Critical
    Critics do not need to be confirmed.

    Resistence tests
    The target have a resistence of 10, plus the attribute and resistence score of the class(es).
    The attacker uses a d20 plus modifiers to see if he overcome the resistence.
    (Should traps and poisons roll dice or already have a fixed challenge?)
    Objective: This will require one roll for area effects instead of one dice per target.


    Skills
    There will be two types of skills that will have points to be spent separately. Adventure skills and Productive skills.
    Each class gains a number of skills at 1st level and another number at subsequent levels, which will be fairer with all classes.
    Non-class skills cost twice as much.
    Adventure skills are the majoroty of dnd 3.5 skills, while the Production skills are the skills like craft and profession, and new other skills that I won't post now.
    Objective: Make characters more complex. The vast majoroty of the characters didn't had skill points to expend in secondary skills, which caould make roleplay and preparation way more interesting. In my view, this would impove significantly the quality of the game out of combat.
    Also, we all can agree that the amont of skills some classes received were just pathetic.


    Spells
    There will be no traditional spell slots.
    Casters will have "caster charges". Each spell costs X charge amount. The number of charges is based on the spellcasting attribute, caster level, and a base amount of the class itself.
    Spell circle will still exist for the purpose of known spells.
    Objective: Make viable for casters to use less powerful spells that are still useful in many situations. I personally hated how I had to not pick certain spells cause combat spells were much more worthy of the spell slots. Also, it will make it casters more costumisable. It would make possible for the player to decide if he is an "explosive" caster or a "consistent" caster (or a between). Lots of tought would be necessary on the cost of the spells.

    Combat
    The aim is to avoid multiple attacks as much as possible. The focus is on increasing individual attacks to make the game easier and faster.
    Action economy remains similar to 3.5, however certain actions can only consume half of the movement.

    BAB? NoÂ…
    Instead of base attack bonuses, each class would receive a X amount of points of perks similar to BAB. Those bonus can be traded by perks that costs 6 (maybe some 3 or 12). Certainly one of the perks will give a x2 multiplier to damage on non-spell attacks.
    Objective: This would be one of the solution for the damage that would be lost due the lack of multi-attacks in the desing I have in mind. Originally it would double the damage only, but I think other perks options can increase the creativity aspect without making the game harder.

    HP
    Classes have a fixed HP. At the first level, that Hp counts twice.
    Constitution is added at each level.
    The minimum life added per level is 1.
    Upon reaching 0, the character is incapacitated.
    The character dies when reaching -10 (- the character's level)
    Reason: I never saw any experienced group that didn't had a house rule on level up HP

    Weapons
    Some melee weapons will use dexterity naturally
    Ranged weapons use dexterity on damage. Ranged classes should be more viable naturally
    Some magic weapons only provide certain advantages when wielded by X-level adventurers. It is not a nerf, but rather a way to make some unique weapons more balanced and viable on the long run.

    Weight
    Medium load will inflict attribute penalty, and travel speed.
    Heavy load will cause more ability penalty, more travel speed penalty, and will cause combat speed penalty.

    RULES
    Some rules will be split in 2 parts.
    Basic, complete.
    Basic: The core of the rule, and the simpliest interpretation you can have of it. This will give the DM the basic version of the rule to be implemented in the game. This will have an approach similar to 5e
    Complete: This will give all the details and exception the rule can have, giving the more passionated groups all the tools they may need.
    The exmple I bring here are the "conditions". Many conditions could have the very same effect without making the game worst, just simplier.
    Objective: Make the more welcoming for different kinds of groups. Both types would still be compatible, to avoid game issues. Altho, this would require some attention on season 0
    ___________________________________
    I need ideas for:

    XP
    XP chart (same of 3.5) or fixed XP (with maximum level to receive XP from certainchallenges)?
    There would not be a multclass penalty. This is just limiting.

    Progression
    BBA was not only responsible for multi-attacks, but also a bonus on hitting the attacks and manuevers.
    Is it a good idea to also give classes an bonus on certain actions as the level progress?
    Another idea: Is it too wild if the player get an attribute every 2 levels?

    Skills
    How we deal with the fact some classes just can't take inteligence? Should we make Skill points gain an static number for each class? Inteligence would have no meta-game advantages, like charisma, in that case
    Also, the graduation limit. Should it exists?

    [B]Advantage and inspiration[B/]
    Should it exist? I mean, advantage for certain mechanics only.


    Well, what are you opnions on all that? And what else need attention?

    And sorry for my typos!
    Last edited by Jonjonjon4; 2023-03-15 at 12:15 PM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    "Resistence tests
    The target have a resistence of 10, plus the attribute and resistence score of the class(es).
    The attacker uses a d20 plus modifiers to see if he overcome the resistence."

    Please elaborate. What's this about?

    About "BAB" giving bonuses to hit‚ well‚ it's your call. If you want to revamp the AC system for monster‚ then sure‚ you might not want to give a to-hit bonus. If you want to keep a lot of the 3.5 resource‚ then you absolutely need a way to increase your to-hit bonus.

    How will ability damage change to accomodate your new way of calculation? Will you keep the spells about the same? Are you giving more or less HP than the official average? "A single attack" is a respectable goal‚ but how do you change everything that gives more attacks? Haste‚ TWF‚ Flurry of blows... And especially natural attacks. Do you plan on changing all monster statblocks?
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-03-16 at 02:38 AM.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    "Resistence tests
    The target have a resistence of 10, plus the attribute and resistence score of the class(es).
    The attacker uses a d20 plus modifiers to see if he overcome the resistence."

    Please elaborate. What's this about?

    About "BAB" giving bonuses to hit‚ well‚ it's your call. If you want to revamp the AC system for monster‚ then sure‚ you might not want to give a to-hit bonus. If you want to keep a lot of the 3.5 resource‚ then you absolutely need a way to increase your to-hit bonus.

    How will ability damage change to accomodate your new way of calculation? Will you keep the spells about the same? Are you giving more or less HP than the official average? "A single attack" is a respectable goal‚ but how do you change everything that gives more attacks? Haste‚ TWF‚ Flurry of blows... And especially natural attacks. Do you plan on changing all monster statblocks?
    "Resistance tests"
    I may have used the wrong term. I meant to say saving throws (will, ref, fort).
    I just want to move the dice roll from the defender to the attacker. It reduce the number of dices rolled when it is an area effect.

    "BAB"
    The hit bonus is something I am still thinking how to compensate. But yes, this rework would requere a whole balancing on creatures.


    For the last question. I actually was thinking about a whole new system based on 3.5. A lot of things would have to change, and it would require a remake to every monster.
    For the HP, at moment, the average of the current class HP would make it.
    Certain mult attacks (for exemple, dragon wings and tails) would still exist, but mult attacks wouldn't be as prevalent as they are right now. Also, with static damage, it is way easier to make the whole attack.
    Hast and flurry of blows how be substituted by damage multiplication. Those multipiers would only apply to the first attack. The multipliers from BAB and haste would still require a full attack? Not sure about it.
    Last edited by Jonjonjon4; 2023-03-16 at 07:14 AM.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    I do like some of these suggestions, but I think the design comes from a different place than the rest of the game.

    Let's take a look at the BBA one:

    BAB? No…
    Instead of base attack bonuses, each class would receive a X amount of points of perks similar to BAB. Those bonus can be traded by perks that costs 6 (maybe some 3 or 12). Certainly one of the perks will give a x2 multiplier to damage on non-spell attacks.
    Objective: This would be one of the solution for the damage that would be lost due the lack of multi-attacks in the desing I have in mind. Originally it would double the damage only, but I think other perks options can increase the creativity aspect without making the game harder.
    1- The way you interact with the imaginary world in a DnD game is just rolling dice, so every time you say "I do this", "I pick that", etc etc, you roll a dice, they are your hand, and eyes, sĂł literally less rolling mean fewer interactions, what feels really different from a heavy rolling game.

    So, the feeling of being a tall guy that does one heavy blow vs the guy who turns into a blender, who is right? I think everyone should be happy doing whatever the system lets them do, and rolling lots of dice on a TWF character is fun, and the best way to make him feel he is doing the attacks is rolling the dice. Making them less math intense would be a suggestion more in tone ith the system design.

    ---

    2- And there are already options for the players, everyone could make the one heavy blow guy. There are monk features that double the damage of one attack, leap attack, power attack+combat brute. And most of these you could pair with pounce, but that is just going WAY OVERBOARD, the system can't keep up with leap attack + pounce.

    The system is always giving choices to players, and if they like, they take them. I don't think that forcing everyone to use this new BBA system would enhance the game feel of everyone, it would just make some players feel better and others not so much, if it was a class for new players and an option this would make much more sense by the design of the game, that is always about choice, and who you wanna be and what you wanna feel.

    So, wrapping up:

    1- Less rolling it's not objectively better.


    2- The system is always about choice and how it feels to play that concept, and sometimes, rolling 40d6 is what makes the player feels powerful, and other times he just wants to charge and roll 1d12+30.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    You're changing too much of the game basics, to a point where it would be a nightmare to take anything from any official 3.Xe materials and put them to use in your system.
    Even if you manage to somehow make it playable, it won't feel like D&D anymore.

    First of all, lose the idea to mess with the following:
    - ability scores
    - attack rolls & damage
    - skills (the one thing that 3e got right)

    Use the second link in my sig to get to a relatively compact solution for leveling characters and blocking official means of breaking the game. This will give you a solution to remove severe issues of character imbalance off the table. The characters in your game will of course not be of identical power (that never happens), but their power disparity will be a lot smaller compared to what official 3e allows and the players will be a lot more content with the things that their characters are able to take part of and contribute to out of the box.
    Of course it's up to you if and what you take from there.

    The first link in my sig leads to a far more comprehensive set of changes, which I don't expect you to try to cope with.
    Nevertheless, there are a few things in there that you might find useful (just use CTRL+F):
    - Crit Substitution
    - Hit Points
    - Spell-Points (you're looking for simplifications, so skip the proposal for Strain & Tolerance)
    - Attacks of Opportunity
    Overall, there's a lot in there that you can go over at your leisure and pillage to your heart's content.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2023-03-16 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Bathory View Post
    I do like some of these suggestions, but I think the design comes from a different place than the rest of the game.

    Let's take a look at the BBA one:



    1- The way you interact with the imaginary world in a DnD game is just rolling dice, so every time you say "I do this", "I pick that", etc etc, you roll a dice, they are your hand, and eyes, sĂł literally less rolling mean fewer interactions, what feels really different from a heavy rolling game.

    So, the feeling of being a tall guy that does one heavy blow vs the guy who turns into a blender, who is right? I think everyone should be happy doing whatever the system lets them do, and rolling lots of dice on a TWF character is fun, and the best way to make him feel he is doing the attacks is rolling the dice. Making them less math intense would be a suggestion more in tone ith the system design.
    Oh, I may not made it clear, but Multi-attacks wouldn't be as prevalent as they are in 3.5, but they would exist for sure. 2 TWF would still give the player 2 attacks. A dragon would still have wing and tail attacks, but there won't be mult-attacks based on BAB.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    You're changing too much of the game basics, to a point where it would be a nightmare to take anything from any official 3.Xe materials and put them to use in your system.
    Even if you manage to somehow make it playable, it won't feel like D&D anymore.

    First of all, lose the idea to mess with the following:
    - ability scores
    - attack rolls & damage
    - skills (the one thing that 3e got right)

    Use the second link in my sig to get to a relatively compact solution for leveling characters and blocking official means of breaking the game. This will give you a solution to remove severe issues of character imbalance off the table. The characters in your game will of course not be of identical power (that never happens), but their power disparity will be a lot smaller compared to what official 3e allows and the players will be a lot more content with the things that their characters are able to take part of and contribute to out of the box.
    Of course it's up to you if and what you take from there.

    The first link in my sig leads to a far more comprehensive set of changes, which I don't expect you to try to cope with.
    Nevertheless, there are a few things in there that you might find useful (just use CTRL+F):
    - Crit Substitution
    - Hit Points
    - Spell-Points (you're looking for simplifications, so skip the proposal for Strain & Tolerance)
    - Attacks of Opportunity
    Overall, there's a lot in there that you can go over at your leisure and pillage to your heart's content.
    Just to adress one thing. The only reason I am proposing a change on ability score is the fact I have witnessed many newbies having a hard time to deal with the ability scores and the mod per say. No other reason beside of that.

    But I am not trying to make a homebrew set of rules for 3.5, I am visioning a system inspired on 3.5. That's why I call it a rework, and not a homebrew. That would require to re-do everything, in basic terms: YES.

    But I got to say, I am loving what I am seeing in those links. I may come back later with considerations about those fixes. I am glad that it isn't just me who think about making 3.5 even better. The first link is a good read, so it may take some time.

    Now, about balancing, I would hate a game where casters and martial classes have the same power the whole time. This would limit both ends, but seen like we both agree that some work is needed to even this difference.
    I think it is both a issue of class features and rules.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    Oh, I may not made it clear, but Multi-attacks wouldn't be as prevalent as they are in 3.5, but they would exist for sure. 2 TWF would still give the player 2 attacks. A dragon would still have wing and tail attacks, but there won't be mult-attacks based on BAB.
    1. The main reason why players take martial classes - psychologically - is to make multiple attacks. Take that and you take away a lot of the hype behind them.
    2. I can't think of a more negligible factor for wasting game time than BAB-related multiple attacks. First address Attacks of Opportunity, it's far more significant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    Just to adress one thing. The only reason I am proposing a change on ability score is the fact I have witnessed many newbies having a hard time to deal with the ability scores and the mod per say. No other reason beside of that.
    Better just let them soak it in and adapt.
    The price you'll pay for messing with the ability scores mechanic just ain't worth it. I tried it and it blew up in my face.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    But I am not trying to make a homebrew set of rules for 3.5, I am visioning a system inspired on 3.5. That's why I call it a rework, and not a homebrew. That would require to re-do everything, in basic terms: YES.
    Notice that I surgically picked specific things for your needs. I didn't just throw stuff at your direction.
    Your solution takes things a lot farther from D&D (3e or otherwise) than my proposals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    But I got to say, I am loving what I am seeing in those links. I may come back later with considerations about those fixes. I am glad that it isn't just me who think about making 3.5 even better. The first link is a good read, so it may take some time.
    Take your time and take whatever you find useful.
    If you have any questions, I'll be happy to share my thoughts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    Now, about balancing, I would hate a game where casters and martial classes have the same power the whole time.
    That's definitely not the agenda.
    Different classes are meant to have different roles and different strengths and limitations. That's what makes building a party interesting. You can make an NBA team full of stars, but if the parts don't fit they won't do so great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjonjon4 View Post
    This would limit both ends, but seen like we both agree that some work is needed to even this difference.
    I think it is both a issue of class features and rules.
    Btw, the minimalistic fix is a result of years of experience and the combined insights and wisdom of the best homebrewers I've encountered on various homebrew boards.
    Of course it doesn't address time-consuming official mechanics - that's what the bolded bullet points I mentioned are for.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    There's a lot going on here and I'm not seeing a consistent vision. If you have a more detailed design document I'd be interested in looking it over. Until then I can't really make comments beyond the very general.

    I can say if you want fluid combat with less dice rolls and calculations you probably need to start with a groundup rewrite of the combat and spellcasting rules.
    But I can't really talk about what that rewrite should look like without knowing where you want to go.

    I can tell you that if you want martials to scale better you need to give them powers that are discrete and stand alone, guaranteed to function with no extra build resources, and prepackaged with answers to the common problems using them might incur.
    But I can't give specific examples without knowing the system goals.

    So yeah, TLDR show us your design doc!
    I am rel.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    Regarding fluid combat and game speedup in general, click here.
    The bottom most spoiler inside ("DM-ing Tips , Ideas & Thumb Rules") contains some useful ideas you might find to come in handy.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    If you haven't created a design document (see my post above) and are unsure on how to do it I can offer advice and resources for that too.
    I am rel.

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    Default Re: DnD 3.5 rework. Pt.2 (continuation/answer to "Problematic and slow mechanics of 3

    I have too much on my plate for the foreseeable future to address creation of a design document, but thanks anyway.

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