Druid & Paladin Survey Launch | Expert Class Survey Results

[Oramac]

Well, since I haven't seen it posted yet, I'll just leave this here for the people with 30 minutes to kill.

Druid & Paladin Survey Launch | Expert Class Survey Results

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, since I haven't seen it posted yet, I'll just leave this here for the people with 30 minutes to kill.

Druid & Paladin Survey Launch | Expert Class Survey Results

I'll get to it later today.
Thank you. Have been looking forward to providing feedback.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Thoughts so far.

About what I expected on the Druid. Haven't had a chance to really look at the Paladin Section (was on break so watched Druid then jumped to Experts)

Something I didn't really think about what the WHY of the level 11 Tiny, that being a Tiny creature with 16-20 Str and Dex with Xd8+Con HP and melee attacks that deal 1d8+Wis is a significant thing. So yeah. I understand. Level 11 is still way too high. Realistically I'd make a Stat block for "Scout" that gets size Tiny, has no real attack options and gains Climb Speed at 3, Fly at 5, etc. This is spitballing, not specifically thought out ideas.

Not surprised on the Ranger feedback.

Same with the Bard, the fact that the Lore College is well liked but overall dipped because of losing Magical Secrets. Lore bard is my favorite purely because it extends Magical Secrets so you could in theory have non bard spells level 3-9 instead of only 5-9 (Yeah I know you can pick all over the place). Heck, I'd prefer an even less combat focused Lore Bard, take away cutting words and such and add in like the Knowledge Cleric extra skills and expertises.

Rogue was amusing because it matches my thought to start.... Sneak attack has always been such a hot and cold for me. Because if I'm playing a specific combat character or assassin (not necessarily the subclass) then I love SA because it fits my character images. But a lot of the time I want Rogue because they're THE non magic skill expert and I would much rather have something else that way than SA. (I loved the UA option Rogue in 3.X that gave up Sneak Attack and got extra Feats like a Fighter instead, was a blast). But then it turns out it's just cause people want to SA more, not because enough of us would like options other than that. :)

[ZRN]

Haven't watched (yet), but apparently rogues got an overall 68% approval, clerics in the 70s, and rangers in the 80s. I think that would put rogues below their threshold for moving forward while rangers are in a really happy range for them.

I hope in evaluating these things they consider that generally a "nerf" will get a low rating and a "buff" will get a high rating, because people tend to compare to the status quo ante rather than to an ideal "balanced" version. In this case I think the feedback is probably right - they filed all the overpowered bits off the 2014 rogue but didn't add cool new stuff to let them keep up with e.g. the new ranger. But finding a way to fix overpowered moon druid nonsense (much less Wizard Issues) without getting a low rating in response to the "nerf" is going to be challenging.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Haven't watched (yet), but apparently rogues got an overall 68% approval, clerics in the 70s, and rangers in the 80s. I think that would put rogues below their threshold for moving forward while rangers are in a really happy range for them.

I hope in evaluating these things they consider that generally a "nerf" will get a low rating and a "buff" will get a high rating, because people tend to compare to the status quo ante rather than to an ideal "balanced" version. In this case I think the feedback is probably right - they filed all the overpowered bits off the 2014 rogue but didn't add cool new stuff to let them keep up with e.g. the new ranger. But finding a way to fix overpowered moon druid nonsense (much less Wizard Issues) without getting a low rating in response to the "nerf" is going to be challenging.

This is one reason why "design by focus group " doesn't work well. Especially when the focus group is only a bunch of anonymous surveys.

[Atranen]

Through about 10 minutes; JC calls out both the 'modified generic statblocks' and the 'designated shortlist' as possible options for the druid. Also mentions 'designing the druid for players who love the druid'.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Haven't watched (yet), but apparently rogues got an overall 68% approval, clerics in the 70s, and rangers in the 80s. I think that would put rogues below their threshold for moving forward while rangers are in a really happy range for them.

Minor note for anyone reading, the Bard is in the 70's, we haven't been shown the feedback on the new Cleric yet.

This is one reason why "design by focus group " doesn't work well. Especially when the focus group is only a bunch of anonymous surveys.

This is where you need to dive into the comments vs just taking the scores, which it seems they're doing.

They acknowledged the Rogue issue is that SA was suddenly only useable on their turn vs on Opportunity attacks or such. They also acknowledged the Lore Bard dip overall was purely the lack of the level 6 Magical Secrets. Now we need to see how they react to that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is one reason why "design by focus group " doesn't work well. Especially when the focus group is only a bunch of anonymous surveys.

I'd suggest watching the video, they do address the reasons given in the survey for these scores.

Anyway. my key takeaways from the video:
- Wildshape is, based on pre-survey data they've observed, about a 50/50 deal. They're currently very open to scrapping this new version entirely if it's proven to be unpopular, or taking feedback such as customization options attached to some more unique prebuilt stat blocks. With the way JC spoke, it seems likely that this is definitely not going to be the final version of Wild Shape, at the very least.
- Wildshape isn't supposed to "round down" at all, for example a level 1 Wild Shape is intended to last 30 minutes. This will be clarified.
- It's intentional that the wording "unarmed strike" was used for Moon Druid combat wild shaping because it allows them the "combat maneuver" aspects of the new Unarmed Strike rules
- Paladin Smite is intended to crit still and will be clarified in the future. They talked about potentially lowering the damage it deals when used for a ranged attack to prevent Paladins from overshadowing Fighters or Rangers as a ranged martial character.
- Sneak Attack is the only base Rogue feature that scored below acceptable percentages, and by a wide enough margin to skew the whole class below average.
- Fast Hands is the only Thief subclass skill that scored poorly, survey results suggest that players want some combat utility in the ability. JC says they're open to it but believes that clarity on what the fast hands can be used for (in reference to the current ability which is restricted in odd ways when using certain items) is the most important aspect.
- Ranger is almost universally praised as a drastic improvement - except for Hunter, which was noted to be received worse on account of Multiattack and a lack of decision making for features.
- People wanted more magical secrets.
- They are observing Epic Boons very carefully to determine the appropriate power level, saying that right now they're more or less copying the 2014 DMG versions and fully intend to put them under the full rigors of a public playtest. Keep telling them they're not very epic yet.

[BeholderEyeDr]

I'd suggest watching the video, they do address the reasons given in the survey for these scores.

Anyway. my key takeaways from the video...

This is spot on. The only thing I'd add (said earlier by PhoenixPhyre, but I think it's worth reiterating) is that there was frequent mention of diving into the written feedback, even on high scoring items. They're clearly not writing off 80+ satisfaction items as done and finished: they're reading feedback and iterating on everything.

[Kane0]

- it seems likely that this is definitely not going to be the final version of Wild Shape, at the very least.
- Paladin Smite is intended to crit still and will be clarified in the future. They talked about potentially lowering the damage it deals when used for a ranged attack to prevent Paladins from overshadowing Fighters or Rangers as a ranged martial character.
- Sneak Attack is the only base Rogue feature that scored below acceptable percentages, and by a wide enough margin to skew the whole class below average.
- Fast Hands is the only Thief subclass skill that scored poorly, survey results suggest that players want some combat utility in the ability.
- Ranger is almost universally praised as a drastic improvement - except for Hunter, which was noted to be received worse on account of Multiattack and a lack of decision making for features.

Good. 10char

[Zevox]

So, have they put out the Druid/Paladin survey then? If so, can anyone provide the link, for us non-D&D Beyond-using types?

On what we learned from the video, I have to say, happy to hear that ditching the current direction for Wild Shape entirely and keeping the 5E method is on the table. Druid isn't one of my absolute favorite classes, but is one I like, and that particular feature loses all of its appeal to me if they do go the generic stat block direction with it. If they drop that, they may raise my hopes that this play test could still end with enough changes to the things I'm not liking that the end result could be something I'd be interested in. That's a lot of maybes, but it's more positive than I've been feeling about "One D&D" for quite a while. Gotta take hope where you can, I suppose.

I hope they get similar feedback about Smite to what happened with Sneak Attack, as I don't think there's a single change to that that I liked (and I didn't even notice whatever part of the new wording made people think it couldn't crit anymore). And Paladin is one of my absolute favorite classes.

[animorte]

So, have they put out the Druid/Paladin survey then? If so, can anyone provide the link, for us non-D&D Beyond-using types?

I saw an official statement on the site saying that the survey will be up on the 20th.

[Zevox]

I saw an official statement on the site saying that the survey will be up on the 20th.

Ah, got it. Thank you.

[Psyren]

I think the most important takeaway from this video by far, is confirmation that they're not just waiting until the surveys launch to hear what people are saying - they're clearly monitoring online discourse in other ways, whether via forums like this, reddit, social media, youtubers etc. Crawford has accurately identified the two main "camps" on the wildshape issue (specific monsters vs custom-built statblocks), as well as correctly noting the common thread they both share, being that wildshape forms should confer texture via interesting animalistic abilities.

I also love the acknowledgement that as passionate as these debates get, they're never going to involve more than a tiny fraction of the responses they ultimately receive via the survey.

Obviously I am team custom statblocks, which could take the form of mutable templates like they do now - but if they end up going with a curated list of monsters in the PHB, I can live with that as long as they solve the scaling issue that the current PHB monster list causes.