Tome Pact in Actual Play

[Psyren]

I can see how one would end up with this GMing style. If magic weapons are rare, and the PCs are not special fate-chosen heroes, they have no realistic reason to be "lucky" and find exactly the magic item they need. And in this mindset, the player was "wrong" to chose PAM that early before looting a magic Halbred/Glaive and should have taken a feat adapted to whatever they find. Of more precisely, taking PAM that early is not "wrong" but is a gamble, and if you loose a gamble you can't complain about the consequences.

But on the other hand, if such a GM does not clearly announce it early in the campaign, they are completely oblivious to the expectation of the average players. This is not how the average player is expecting the campaign to go, so obviously they will complain about "loosing the gamble" because in their mind they were not gambling anything.

And it probably deadlocked because the GM did not consider himself "giving" magical items to the player, they were randomly and/or logically determining what the universe look like, expecting the players to adapt. And they perceived the player's complaint about not looting the weapon they want in the same way as one might complain about rolling a 1 on a d20. Bad luck is part of the game.

Bad luck is part of the game, but so is coming into the game with a particular character concept in mind (PHB 11.) If I tell the DM I want to play an archer, build my character around archery, and because they never gave me a magic bow I'm forced to use a magic dagger or club instead because they keep putting nonmagical resistant or immune enemies in front of me, I'm going to feel immensely shortchanged.

[stoutstien]

You can slowly feed off rituals form the party so they can free up spells known/prepared over time. Sure it cost a little time and money but for a single invocation that's a lot of flexibility.

[strangebloke]

I just struggle understand why you would never have access to scrolls or rituals?

like,

• they're common with rolled loot.
• if the DM is tailoring loot, they'll give you scrolls
• if the DM is doing a naturalistic/integrated setting, any spellcaster can make and sell scrolls so it seems like something you could buy or find??
• party members like clerics have lots of spells they can only cast as rituals if they prepare them - and they might not want to prepare them. So you can have them make scrolls and copy them into your book so that they don't have to prepare Purify Food and Drink or whatever.

You might not get every ritual but the situation where you get zero mileage out of this ability seems really rare. Either your DM has a really specific idea about how their setting works and shouldn't have allowed you to take BoAS in the first place, or you're frankly not even trying.

[Unoriginal]

Personally, if a player comes up with a character concept using a specific kind of weapon, I'm much more likely to tell them "sure, you can search for magic versions" rather than change the adventure to have them conveniently find the weapon they need/want.

As in, sure, you can meet an enemy warlock with a Rod of the Pact Keeper, but if you absolutely want/need one, you're better off specifically tracking info about where to find one, then either trade with the owner or wrestle it off them.

[Psyren]

Personally, if a player comes up with a character concept using a specific kind of weapon, I'm much more likely to tell them "sure, you can search for magic versions" rather than change the adventure to have them conveniently find the weapon they need/want.

As in, sure, you can meet an enemy warlock with a Rod of the Pact Keeper, but if you absolutely want/need one, you're better off specifically tracking info about where to find one, then either trade with the owner or wrestle it off them.

Sure but just to note, there's a big difference between RotPK and a generically magic polearm/bow though. Not only is the former highly specific compared to the latter, even if the Warlock never gets the former they're still primarily doing force damage and thus don't really have to worry about resistance or immunity. But the martial who is either stuck with a mundane weapon, or who gets a magical one they didn't build around, is a lot worse off.

[Tanarii]

they're common with rolled loot.

Spell scrolls are fairly common as rolled loot.

There's no guidance for which spells are in the loot other than spell level. So if e.g. DM randomly rolls among all spells of that level, you're pretty unlikely to find rituals. Getting a Wizard spell is fairly likely with that method though, since there are more of them than any other. But if the DM rolls for full casting classes then spell, odds of even that go down.

[strangebloke]

Spell scrolls are fairly common as rolled loot.

There's no guidance for which spells are in the loot other than spell level. So if e.g. DM randomly rolls among all spells of that level, you're pretty unlikely to find rituals. Getting a Wizard spell is fairly likely with that method though, since there are more of them than any other. But if the DM rolls for full casting classes then spell, odds of even that go down.

Why would you ever roll class first?

But yeah like 1/10 low level spells are rituals and you don't care about class, so your odds of getting a few rituals randomly aren't bad. Sure its only like 2% on any given loot roll but ritual scrolls have good odds of showing up.

Like, this is a single invocation. Even if all you get is find familiar and detect magic the invocations done its worth, and if you're able to get 3-4 more rituals on the invocation its frankly top notch.

[Tanarii]

Okay, I'll do the actual numbers if finding at least one ritual spell on a scroll before level 5, assuming 10% of spells are rituals. Maybe you're right. Typing this part before doing the numbers. (I actually think it's a bit more than that for level 1 spells btw)

per treasure roll on 0-4 table, of which you get 7 before level 5:
24% Table A, 1d6 rolls, 24% chance of 1-2 scroll.
15% Table B, 1d4 rolls, 10% chance of 3-4 scroll.
10% Table C, 1d4 rolls, 12% chance of 4-5 scroll.
10% chance it's a ritual spell.

(1-(1-.24*.1)^3.5)*.24+(1-(1-.10*.1)^2.5)*.15+(1-(1-.12*.1)^2.5)*.10 = 2.6% of finding at least one scroll with a ritual on it.
1-(1-(.026))^7 = 16.8% of finding at least one spell scroll with a ritual before level 5. Roughly.

Edit: fixed math which gave about double odds of my first stab at it.

[Willie the Duck]

I've played Pact of Tome warlocks (notably the Celestial and Undead ones, both with moderately armored) to relatively positive results. Both them and Pact of Chain warlocks I liken to Lore Bards -- they have some really useful abilities, but you struggle with what to do* during a combat round where you don't want to expend a spell (and warlocks in general really suffer for that long stretch before you get 3 levelled spells per SR).
*Actually you know what to do -- eldritch blast for the umpteen millionth time, it's just that it is boring and only moderately helpful.

IMO, rituals are near useless. Like the definition of a ribbon ability. One, there isn't enough of them. Two, several of them fall into "narrative" spaces (I'm gonna risk cast floating disk so I don't have to carry stuff, etc), and don't actually affect the outcome of anything. ... oh, cantrips are also bad lol.

Wizards have the largest number of ritual spells and the lion's share of the best ones.

I think warlocks in general work best for people who can find uses for "narrative" spells. If you get a class-build option, and perk up at the ability to cast disguise self at will or read all writing, that's the kind of person for whom a warlock really flourishes. Tomelocks are just that in their specific ability as well (Chainlocks as well, it's just that more people know what to do with an invisible attacking familiar). And yes, wizards have most of the best (and the most of) ritual spells and cantrips individually aren't always great, but the tomelock has the advantage of synergizing them in a way that you would need lots of feats or massive multiclassing to accomplish. The simplest being that they can pull off shillelagh-booming blade/GFB, using their preferred stat, without needing a feat (or primal savagery if you want to only spend one cantrip slot). While not competitive with bladelocks, much less fighters, it is solid enough to make them second-tier combatants if you can get their AC up (see moderately armored, above). Beyond that, you can get guidance along with all the arcane cantrips people generally consider valuable for social or dungeon-crawling purposes (minor illusion, shape water, mold earth, mage hand, prestidigitation). With the number you get, you can have a melee and ranged combat cantrip and still have space left over for a lot of utility. Among ritual spells, yes obviously detect magic/identify/find familiar/leodmund's hut get the most digital ink spilled; but there's plenty of use in having comprehend languages, speak with animals, augury, phantom steed, water breathing, and Rary's telepathic bond (especially having all of them in one class). Part of that is situational based on party composition -- now the party doesn't need a full-levelled cleric, druid, and wizard around all the time to get coverage in these things. Another part of it is situational in what the DM throws at you. Comprehend languages can save a party from going down the wrong passageway in a dungeon -- if there are warnings written in languages the party otherwise doesn't know. Speak with Animals can give the party incredible recon information about the enemy lair-- if the DM rules that yes there would be an animal about who has been flitting back and forth and has seen what goes on inside.

[strangebloke]

Okay, I'll do the actual numbers if finding at least one ritual spell on a scroll before level 5, assuming 10% of spells are rituals. Maybe you're right. Typing this part before doing the numbers. (I actually think it's a bit more than that for level 1 spells btw)

per treasure roll on 0-4 table, of which you get 7 before level 5:
24% Table A, 1d6 rolls, 24% chance of 1-2 scroll.
15% Table B, 1d4 rolls, 10% chance of 3-4 scroll.
10% Table C, 1d4 rolls, 12% chance of 4-5 scroll.
10% chance it's a ritual spell.

(1-(1-.24*.1)^3.5)*.24+(1-(1-.10*.1)^2.5)*.15+(1-(1-.12*.1)^2.5)*.10 = 2.6% of finding at least one scroll with a ritual on it.
1-(1-(.026))^7 = 16.8% of finding at least one spell scroll with a ritual before level 5. Roughly.

Edit: fixed math which gave about double odds of my first stab at it.

Math checks out. lower than I would've thought but still not impossible. To repeat this for levels 5-10...

18 rolls
15% Table A, 1d6 rolls, 24% chance of 1-2 scroll.
18% Table B, 1d4 rolls, 10% chance of 3-4 scroll.
10% Table C, 1d4 rolls, 12% chance of 4-5 scroll.
10% chance it's a ritual spell.

(1-(1-.24*.1)^3.5)*.15+(1-(1-.10*.1)^2.5)*.18+(1-(1-.12*.1)^2.5)*.10 = 2.0%
1-(1-(.026))^18 = 37.8% of finding one from levels 5-10, or 50/50 when combined with earlier levels.

Overall doesn't seem that my notion of generally getting a few rituals via rolling is really true, though you are going to end up with a lot of GP in a rolling-for-loot scenario and consumables like scrolls are for sale if anything is.

I'd generally still regard a "you can get no scrolls ever" campaign as being a bit unusual - not wrong but definitely something that would come up in session zero.

[Dork_Forge]

Math checks out. lower than I would've thought but still not impossible. To repeat this for levels 5-10...

18 rolls
15% Table A, 1d6 rolls, 24% chance of 1-2 scroll.
18% Table B, 1d4 rolls, 10% chance of 3-4 scroll.
10% Table C, 1d4 rolls, 12% chance of 4-5 scroll.
10% chance it's a ritual spell.

(1-(1-.24*.1)^3.5)*.15+(1-(1-.10*.1)^2.5)*.18+(1-(1-.12*.1)^2.5)*.10 = 2.0%
1-(1-(.026))^18 = 37.8% of finding one from levels 5-10, or 50/50 when combined with earlier levels.

Overall doesn't seem that my notion of generally getting a few rituals via rolling is really true, though you are going to end up with a lot of GP in a rolling-for-loot scenario and consumables like scrolls are for sale if anything is.

I'd generally still regard a "you can get no scrolls ever" campaign as being a bit unusual - not wrong but definitely something that would come up in session zero.

Does the math factor in the chance that the scrolls are redundant, since Book of Ancient Secrets gives two freebies, or would that not be statistically significant?

I don't think a no scroll campaign would really be that weird, it can be a pretty niche consumable item, I think it could be accidentally omitted really easily. Though, if I was planning on taking something like BoAS or Ritual Caster, I'd probably double check with the DM or if there are party members that can stack my book.

[animorte]

Does the math factor in the chance that the scrolls are redundant, since Book of Ancient Secrets gives two freebies, or would that not be statistically significant?

At this point, I honestly think it's already worth it, despite what this thread implies. Getting a couple others above 1st-level is just cherries on top.

[Tanarii]

I'd generally still regard a "you can get no scrolls ever" campaign as being a bit unusual - not wrong but definitely something that would come up in session zero.

I'm a fan of the XTGe downtime rules for finding magic items. Although it does make it a bit easy to find a specific magic item. But certainly it hugely increases the availability of consumable magic items for those who have the money and time, without feeling like a straight magic mart. Instead it feels like a codified method of the very traditional D&D way of finding magic items: spending time in a city working contacts, gilding the palms of rare item brokers and possibly shadier types, and coming up with some information that can lead to a deal of some kind.

Does the math factor in the chance that the scrolls are redundant, since Book of Ancient Secrets gives two freebies, or would that not be statistically significant?

The math isn't that accurate to begin with. 1st level rituals are quite a lot more than 10% of the 1st level PHB spells, so subtracting 2 (for the the redundancy) just makes the 10% closer to accurate.

I got too lazy to go work the actual percentage of each spell level and incorporate it (since it would have expanded the dependent clauses considerably), but I'd roughly hazard it could mean as much as 5-10% increase in chance of finding at least one scroll across the board after compounding. Especially since 1st level has the highest difference.

[Psyren]

At the risk of repeating myself, nothing in the rules actually say scrolls are the only possible way to learn rituals. You can have a "no-scroll campaign" without having a "no-ritual campaign."

Tomelocks in particular, most of them anyway, have a presumably knowledgeable entity looking over their shoulder with a vested interest in their continued power gain, even if that interest isn't immediately clear.

[Dork_Forge]

At this point, I honestly think it's already worth it, despite what this thread implies. Getting a couple others above 1st-level is just cherries on top.

I agree, I think I've already said it in this thread but I wouldn't take BoAS or Ritual Caster unless I was happy with only what they gave me, which is generally worth it, especially if it fleshes out what you wanted for your character.

The math isn't that accurate to begin with. 1st level rituals are quite a lot more than 10% of the 1st level PHB spells, so subtracting 2 (for the the redundancy) just makes the 10% closer to accurate.

I got too lazy to go work the actual percentage of each spell level and incorporate it (since it would have expanded the dependent clauses considerably), but I'd roughly hazard it could mean as much as 5-10% increase in chance of finding at least one scroll across the board after compounding. Especially since 1st level has the highest difference.

Oh, I didn't realise you were just counting PHB for some reason, a quick check and I think that:

- Of PHB only 1st level spells, 18.75% are rituals

- Of all 1st level spells, that goes down to 16.05%

Fun fact, going from PHB only to all sources only added a single ritual spell: Ceremony from XgtE.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

At the risk of repeating myself, nothing in the rules actually say scrolls are the only possible way to learn rituals. You can have a "no-scroll campaign" without having a "no-ritual campaign."

Tomelocks in particular, most of them anyway, have a presumably knowledgeable entity looking over their shoulder with a vested interest in their continued power gain, even if that interest isn't immediately clear.

Don't disagree with your intent or point, but one thing to correct.

There is no Lore or RAW requirement for the Patron to care about the Warlock at all. It's been clarified that you've already done whatever it is you have to do for your side of the deal to get the keys to your Warlock Powers.

The whole idea that the Patron is still paying attention or cares or continuing your education is a very cool angle but not assumed in the game.

[Psyren]

Don't disagree with your intent or point, but one thing to correct.

There is no Lore or RAW requirement for the Patron to care about the Warlock at all. It's been clarified that you've already done whatever it is you have to do for your side of the deal to get the keys to your Warlock Powers.

The whole idea that the Patron is still paying attention or cares or continuing your education is a very cool angle but not assumed in the game.

I don't deny that possibility - but it's reasonable to assume there's a greater chance they empowered you for a reason than that they didn't. In any event, it's only one avenue of introducing rituals to a scroll-free game, albeit a convenient/omnipresent one.

[strangebloke]

At the risk of repeating myself, nothing in the rules actually say scrolls are the only possible way to learn rituals. You can have a "no-scroll campaign" without having a "no-ritual campaign."

Tomelocks in particular, most of them anyway, have a presumably knowledgeable entity looking over their shoulder with a vested interest in their continued power gain, even if that interest isn't immediately clear.

you should at a minimum be able to copy out of a spellbook.

But yeah my general attitude is that 2 rituals are well worth the invocation by themselves, and the fact that it grows from there just makes it way better than it has any right to be.

[Cheesegear]

But yeah my general attitude is that 2 rituals are well worth the invocation by themselves

Strong agree.

Gain the Ritual Caster Feat.
In addition, you can cast from all class' spell lists, simultaneously.
In addition, you use Charisma as your casting ability, regardless of which spell list the spell comes from.

Is Ritual Caster worth it?
Is Ritual Caster worth it, if you remove it's two limitations?

In addition, force the DM to warp the game's loot around you.
...I don't think that should be part of Ritual Caster, and I don't think the Invocation should do that, either.

[strangebloke]

Strong agree.

Gain the Ritual Caster Feat.
In addition, you can cast from all class' spell lists, simultaneously.
In addition, you use Charisma as your casting ability, regardless of which spell list the spell comes from.

Is Ritual Caster worth it?
Is Ritual Caster worth it, if you remove it's two limitations?

In addition, force the DM to warp the game's loot around you.
...I don't think that should be part of Ritual Caster, and I don't think the Invocation should do that, either.

I thought I was pretty clear that if the DM was tailoring loot anyway you'd get scrolls, not that taking this feat means you have license to bully the DM.

Failing that scrolls are a pretty normal thing to buy, yeah? How hard is it to get a scroll of detect magic? Can't think it's that hard.

[SociopathFriend]

My thoughts are that regardless of how much you think you're not getting out of the tome itself- the Warlock class on its own is powerful enough that you won't notice it too much.

But that moment where you give the DM the finger and say, "Actually, my fellow party member doesn't drop to 0 hp"?

That's worth a lot to me.

[Kane0]

Yeah thats a good point, the Xan's and Tasha's Tome invocations slap

[Cheesegear]

Failing that scrolls are a pretty normal thing to buy, yeah? How hard is it to get a scroll of detect magic? Can't think it's that hard.

The rules for Scribing a Scroll are as follows:
- A character must know the spell.
- A character must be proficient in the Arcana skill.

1st-Level Scrolls cost a day and 25gp to make.
2nd-Level Scrolls cost 3 days and 250gp to make.
...After that it gets pretty spicy.

Up to 5th-Level Spellcasters should be...Findable...In any decent sized town. Maybe as a town's protector from the odd Goblin raid. Or the hedge wizard set up shop in that town, because no other Wizard was there and he'd be left alone...Point is, a retired adventurer looking to making a living might be commissioned for a Scroll or three. Come back after the weekend and I'll have the Level 2 Scroll you want. 300gp. Gotta make a profit.

Druids (Town Medicine Man) and Clerics (Priest) can change their spells every single day. Knowing a spell isn't the problem; The issue is that to get someone to write a Scroll for you they have to be proficient in Arcana.
...That takes a special Cleric. And a really, really, really specific kind of Druid... You might have to go on a journey if I decide that the town Cleric doesn't have Knowledge Domain for no reason.

Wizard Scrolls should be all over the place. What Wizard isn't proficient in Arcana? And what Wizard wanting to making some cash wont fork over a Scroll they can write in a day?

1d4 times on Table A for loot...Okay. Cross your fingers, team.
Can we just skip random loot and you give me Identify?
...No?

[diplomancer]

Strong agree.

Gain the Ritual Caster Feat.
In addition, you can cast from all class' spell lists, simultaneously.
In addition, you use Charisma as your casting ability, regardless of which spell list the spell comes from.

Is Ritual Caster worth it?
Is Ritual Caster worth it, if you remove it's two limitations?

In addition, force the DM to warp the game's loot around you.
...I don't think that should be part of Ritual Caster, and I don't think the Invocation should do that, either.

As far as I could find out, literally no Rituals care about your casting stat, so being able to use Cha for it is not a benefit at all. And if you're just getting two Rituals, the fact that they can come from more than one list isn't hot stuff either

Ritual Caster is an OK feat- if you're expected to get more than two Rituals over the course of the game. Otherwise it's pretty bad.

.

[Cheesegear]

Ritual Caster is an OK feat- if you're expected to get more than two Rituals over the course of the game.

Oooh. Well now it depends on the length of the campaign, doesn't it?

If you're going from Level 1 to 13 (and you don't die), how do you not have +3 Rituals by the end?
If you're playing a short, Level 5-7 dungeon crawl that takes four sessions. Then probably not.

That's actually kind of a great point.
It doesn't depend so much on your DM; But the amount of time you'll be spending with your character.

Over time, you'll find Scrolls. If you can't find Scrolls you want, buy it.
(Almost any NPC Wizard you meet in any campaign, can Scribe a scroll for you if you pay them enough. Tell your DM. Getting non-Wizards to Scribe Scrolls is a little bit more tricky, RAW. But it can be done.)

[strangebloke]

The rules for Scribing a Scroll are as follows:
- A character must know the spell.
- A character must be proficient in the Arcana skill.

1st-Level Scrolls cost a day and 25gp to make.
2nd-Level Scrolls cost 3 days and 250gp to make.
...After that it gets pretty spicy.

Up to 5th-Level Spellcasters should be...Findable...In any decent sized town. Maybe as a town's protector from the odd Goblin raid. Or the hedge wizard set up shop in that town, because no other Wizard was there and he'd be left alone...Point is, a retired adventurer looking to making a living might be commissioned for a Scroll or three. Come back after the weekend and I'll have the Level 2 Scroll you want. 300gp. Gotta make a profit.

Druids (Town Medicine Man) and Clerics (Priest) can change their spells every single day. Knowing a spell isn't the problem; The issue is that to get someone to write a Scroll for you they have to be proficient in Arcana.
...That takes a special Cleric. And a really, really, really specific kind of Druid... You might have to go on a journey if I decide that the town Cleric doesn't have Knowledge Domain for no reason.

Wizard Scrolls should be all over the place. What Wizard isn't proficient in Arcana? And what Wizard wanting to making some cash wont fork over a Scroll they can write in a day?

1d4 times on Table A for loot...Okay. Cross your fingers, team.
Can we just skip random loot and you give me Identify?
...No?

Those are the XGTE rules for PCs, who knows how it works for NPCs. NPCs don't really have class spell lists after all.

Selling a scroll makes you a lot of money! There have to be loads of priests / scribes / cultists / wizard apprentices who are tasking with printing a few scrolls out every week. Learning the Arcana skill isn't super hard.

IDK I would assume that through level 3 spells the rituals are very plentiful in your average city. A level 1 scroll doesn't cost much more than a health potion after all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Let's see, at 10th almost 11th I have in my ritual book:
Find Familiar and Alarm (initial spells)
Skywrite, Water Breather, LTH (from a scroll), Detect Magic, Identify, and we just defeated a Diviner.. Woot, ended up with Rary's Telepathic Bond (ritual).

Duration: 1 hour
You forge a telepathic link among up to eight willing creatures of your choice within range, psychically linking each creature to all the others for the duration. Creatures with Intelligence scores of 2 or less aren’t affected by this spell. Until the spell ends, the targets can communicate telepathically through the bond whether or not they have a common language. The communication is possible over any distance, though it can’t extend to other planes of existence.

we are about to infiltrate the captial, even though there is a price on our heads. This will make it easier to disperse and then meet up in an agreed location but also alert one another to traps or trouble so that we can adjust the plan if need be ...

[SociopathFriend]

Yeah thats a good point, the Xan's and Tasha's Tome invocations slap

It is a rare ability that can be said to 100% prevent a party wipe and mean it.

[Pex]

Strong agree.

Gain the Ritual Caster Feat.
In addition, you can cast from all class' spell lists, simultaneously.
In addition, you use Charisma as your casting ability, regardless of which spell list the spell comes from.

Is Ritual Caster worth it?
Is Ritual Caster worth it, if you remove it's two limitations?

In addition, force the DM to warp the game's loot around you.
...I don't think that should be part of Ritual Caster, and I don't think the Invocation should do that, either.

Oh no! A DM providing treasure that PCs would actually like, use, and have fun with. The horror!

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Oh no! A DM providing treasure that PCs would actually like, use, and have fun with. The horror!

I mean isn't that expected? The guy with the Naginata should be able to eventually find or have made a magical naginata. The Wizard should be able to find scrolls, bracers of protection, etc. The Paladin should be able to find a magic shield...

Sure random items are great and lead to very interesting fun, but if certain items are part of the character there should be some expectation to get them.