Sneaking Imp Chain Familiar vs the World: an analysis (data collected)

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm actually lost at what the contention is with the black bear lol, which tells me we may have gotten into the weeds OR my batteries are running low.

One thing I think a clever player can do is, if the imp is somehow found out, just have the imp pretend he's there for the person that found him. Like... play along and just act cool "I am here to offer you something beyond this miserable existence you have settled for that you call "a life"". Do they have good Deception?

[Psyren]

Imps are proficient in Deception with a total bonus of +4.

[diplomancer]

Understood.

Would you agree that despite it not being possible to analyse the total of the Imp's effectiveness, it is worthwhile to analyse their effectiveness in the situations where it can be (with the acknowledgement that the situations where you cannot analyse it are outside of the analysis's perview)?

With several caveats, yes, I would agree so. At the very least, I believe it should be clearly stated that the analysis is not and does not intend to be an analysis of the total of the Imp's effectiveness as a scout.

You are correct, Keen Smell cannot be used to ignore the "hide anywhere" part of invisibility.

As said above, "ignore" is too vague a wording for what I meant, and what I meant next to irrelevant anyway. In consequence, I acknowledge my mistake, and will correct it ASAP.

I honestly can't say, from your assumptions, what you could mean by it. As you've said, "next to irrelevant", but I would think it's completely irrelevant. :D

[Unoriginal]

At the very least, I believe it should be clearly stated that the analysis is not and does not intend to be an analysis of the total of the Imp's effectiveness as a scout.

Fair point, I've edited my methodology statement to include this explicitly.

[diplomancer]

I've seen DMs call for Performance to play a role, wasn't pushing a specific narrative. I'd argue stealth is if you throw on a guard cloak and walk through the halls not interacting. The moment someone passes Perception and calls you out it shifts to Deception.



Questionable depending on circumstances, but I think we agree. If I'm looking right at you, no amount of casually slipping away will work. But if I'm talking to you and Dr and Diplo and three others, you're in my view but it'd be possible for you to slip away without me consciously noting it.

I'm reminded of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpm6UWyU5IM

And, of course, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XslcgQJMZaY

Then, as a separate point, Keen Smell is obviously not affected if, say, an invisible creature who makes no perceptible sound had to pass in proximity of the Black Bear without attempting to hide, meaning that invisibility is not going to stop a Black Bear's perception, aka that the Bear ignores invisibility in questions related to perception.

Oh, I've just realized this! You, in fact, agree that a creature that makes no perceptible sound and is invisible can be undetected without attempting to hide! Maybe the question is then what would make that possible, i.e, if it requires a game feature that says so (always magical, as far as I know), or if this (not making a perceptible sound, and therefore no need to hide) is actually a thing that the DM may rule.

I also agree that this situation with a Keen Senses: smell creature is one where the Invisible, silent creature can be perceived, though I'm still not sure about the exact locating, and would definitely dispute precise identification. The bear would still be able to tell that something is off (and alert someone, who might take further measures to investigate).

[Schwann145]

We don't have a monopoly on common sense here. The developers have it too. They also know how real world physics works, and vision and sound, etc. And yet... they didn't marry the Invisible condition to the Adv/Disadv that you're insisting on. Which means that it's up to the DM. Which means that sometimes you might get it, and sometimes you might not.

I think you're reading into what's being said. I don't think I've implied favoritism by DMs, but rather by people that want the imp to be undetectable. A DM is free to rule however they want. A person on a forum is not free to tell everyone how things will go in a theoretical game.

The developers also designed the Stealth and Stealth Detection mechanics in such a way that sound, and sometimes scent, is a very important part, and then totally failed to build any mechanics around sound or scent at all.

The RAW, as it reads currently, works as you say: If you aren't specifically trying to hide, then you can, and will, be detected. If you're invisible, then that means you will be detected by either touch, smell, or sound. If you aren't touching anything, it will be smell or sound. Since there are zero mechanics in the game to (naturally) mask scent or sound, then one of those will always be the reason you're detected.
If you're on the opposite end of a 100 yard field from an ant, and the ant isn't trying to hide, you know exactly where it is because you can either smell it, hear it. You're too far away to touch it and you probably can't see it because the field itself (grass, etc) will provide cover, but since it's not trying to Hide, the DM could easily say that it isn't receiving any cover and you could see it too.

Obviously things will result in the DM making the call. The player, arguing on their own behalf, is not the same thing as "telling them DM they have to do it one way or another," despite how often your side of the discussion insists that's what we're saying.
It's not what we're saying. Period.

=================

On another note, re: Keen Senses...
The ability only does what it says it does, which is almost always advantage on the roll, and nothing else (as in, no special granted attempts to notice things that otherwise couldn't be noticed).

If you, a human, and a black bear are sitting next to each other, and an invisible creature under the effects of a Silence spell is standing 15ft in front of you both, and it attempts to hide, both you and the bear get to roll your Wis (Perception) checks vs it's Dex (Stealth). The bear, with it's Keen Smell, gets to roll with advantage.
If the bear rolls a 3 and a 7, and you roll a 14, then you can officially smell better than the black bear, despite not having Keen Smell.

[Unoriginal]

If you, a human, and a black bear are sitting next to each other, and an invisible creature under the effects of a Silence spell is standing 15ft in front of you both, and it attempts to hide

The creature is already hidden from me, though, as it is unseen and unheard.

[Schwann145]

The creature is already hidden from me, though, as it is unseen and unheard.

What is "Hidden?" It's not a condition, at least not in the SRD.
Invisible and silent creatures can still have a smell or leave tracks.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?

[Unoriginal]

What is "Hidden?" It's not a condition, at least not in the SRD.
Invisible and silent creatures can still have a smell or leave tracks.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?

As per the PHB:

"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden–both unseen and unheard–when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

[Schwann145]

As per the PHB:

"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden–both unseen and unheard–when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

So a rules stipulation about location known in relation to attacking... means what, exactly, for the prior scenario outllined?

[Willowhelm]

The creature is already hidden from me, though, as it is unseen and unheard.

What is "Hidden?" It's not a condition, at least not in the SRD.
Invisible and silent creatures can still have a smell or leave tracks.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?

As per the PHB:

"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden–both unseen and unheard–when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

So a rules stipulation about location known in relation to attacking... means what, exactly, for the prior scenario outllined?

It seems fairly clear that you wanted a definition of hidden and one has been provided. The fact that it is in a paragraph about how being hidden affects attacks doesn't stop it being a useful definition from the PHB.

[Schwann145]

It seems fairly clear that you wanted a definition of hidden and one has been provided. The fact that it is in a paragraph about how being hidden affects attacks doesn't stop it being a useful definition from the PHB.

Sure, and I didn't dispute that definition. But it has nothing to do with the post, so Unoriginal's reply doesn't really make any sense.

[Willowhelm]

Sure, and I didn't dispute that definition. But it has nothing to do with the post, so Unoriginal's reply doesn't really make any sense.

I believe the point was that you don't need to hide if you're already hidden. As that definition of hidden is from the PHB and merely states unseen and unheard (not un-smelt or un-detectable through other senses) then it seems relevant to the scenario you were describing.

It all seems to follow along quite clearly and each response is directly related to your post, quoted and all. Not really sure how it could make more sense than that.

NB. I don't endorse the arguments in either direction.

[Schwann145]

Hidden, as described in that one sentence about revealing yourself with an attack, reads to me as implying you've already compared Stealth rolls against Perception rolls and come out the victor.

Nothing about the text would or should lead one to believe that if you are simply unseen and unheard, you are now "hidden" and nothing can give you away aside from attacking something.

[Tanarii]

I believe the point was that you don't need to hide if you're already hidden. As that definition of hidden is from the PHB and merely states unseen and unheard (not un-smelt or un-detectable through other senses) then it seems relevant to the scenario you were describing.

Smell is a weird one. Because difference creatures have wildly different scent capabilities.

Keen senses Scent is a very poor rule. It should read "you can perceive and track creatures by smell using Perception", not give advantage. Because the range at which the typical humanoid can identify another creature they cannot see or hear by scent is probably less than touch. Ie you'd bump into them before smelling them and recognizing it as another creature being present.

Meanwhile a bear or wolf or mastiff might have a 30ft or more range for its checks ... which then also come with advantage compared to depending hearing or sight.

Gonna say it again, PF2e has fixed all this already. It divides senses into 3 levels or precision, which provide a certain maximum level of awareness/pin pointing. Mutants and Masterminds 3e also uses multiple levels of precision for senses. It's not a system that needs to be this dependent on DM rulings, or bad mechanics like Keen Senses, even in 5e.

[Dr.Samurai]

Gonna say it again, PF2e has fixed all this already. It divides senses into 3 levels or precision, which provide a certain maximum level of awareness/pin pointing. Mutants and Masterminds 3e also uses multiple levels of precision for senses. It's not a system that needs to be this dependent on DM rulings, or bad mechanics like Keen Senses, even in 5e.

If you're suggesting that 5E should implement something similar, I'll just go get the torches and pitchforks now, and my cardboard signs ready. Let's see, there's the "Simplicity > Complexity" sign, and the "This isn't a simulation!!" sign. Oh, and the "5E's popularity has a direct inverse relationship with 5E's rule complexity!" sign.

It's much better to play the game in this absolute quagmire than to, like... clarify stuff in the rules.

[Unoriginal]

Can we please not start any other 10-page-long off-topic dispute about how the game should or shouldn't do X thing, or about how Y other system does it better/worse?

We're better than this. All of us.

This thread has done what it was set to do. Personally, I learned things I wouldn't have had I not participated in this endeavor.

If you wish to discuss the topic more, go ahead, that's what a thread is for.

But it certainly isn't to re-start the decade-old jousting over re-hashed issues we should know better than squabble over.

[Tanarii]

Can we please not start any other 10-page-long off-topic dispute about how the game should or shouldn't do X thing, or about how Y other system does it better/worse?

It's directly relevant to not being detected (or pin pointed), both with and without use of stealth, both by creatures attempting it and those it is being attempted against.

That's on topic for how good an Imp is as a scout, especially compared a party member. It's even on topic for how good a sneaking Imp is vs the world.

[tokek]

Can we please not start any other 10-page-long off-topic dispute about how the game should or shouldn't do X thing, or about how Y other system does it better/worse?

We're better than this. All of us.

This thread has done what it was set to do. Personally, I learned things I wouldn't have had I not participated in this endeavor.

If you wish to discuss the topic more, go ahead, that's what a thread is for.

But it certainly isn't to re-start the decade-old jousting over re-hashed issues we should know better than squabble over.

I'm with you on this. The thread is of direct interest to me as a player right now and was interesting and informative for a while - but the last several pages have been 90% useless. When the signal to noise ratio drops that low I tune out.

I thought we might touch on the different invocations and how they define different roles for the imp familiar but I think this thread is pretty much beyond rescuing now.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeesh... one tiny joke post and it all goes to the Nine!

I too have found this thread very informative. There's a bajillion ways to play D&D, and these conversations help to explain why when I see certain comments being made online I'm like "Really?".

None wrong or bad, just different.

[Aimeryan]

What's the sound a spider (or a centipede, for that matter-check quasit) makes while moving along a wall, whether it's trying to conceal it or not? I've never heard them make any sound. Game doesn't say it. DM decides, as well as decides how close any particular creature has to be to the spider to even have a chance of hearing the sound it makes.

Don't know where this thread went after this; I'll probably get through it with a bit of time.

Anyway, yup. This is one of 5e's weakest areas, given almost zero guidance to DMs. There is a fair amount about vision (and even that is poorly done; looking at you opaque darkness). When vision is not applicable it is merely mentioned you can detect via other methods. Thats it. Thanks 5e.

You can put a few pieces together to help; a Wisdom (Perception) check is required to detect something. Alright, whats the DC? *the DC you are looking for cannot be found!*
Ok, so, guess thats up to the DM. Wait, why aren't we always rolling then? Well, you can automatically pass checks, no rolling required. The presumption is that sight checks would have such a low DC that they would be automatically passed - unless the creature is using a Stealth check which does tell you the DC.

So, what about hearing, or smell, or thermosensation, or electroreception, or any other potential sense? That DC is going to need the DM to set. It would theorectically take environmental *noise* (so sounds for hearing, scents for smelling, etc.) into account, and the noise level that would likely be presented by the target at that distance. The DC to hear a spider 20ft away while a fire is crackling merrily nearby? Probably like 30 or something. Cats are also next to silent even when not attempting to sneak. Now, if you have Keen Hearing, like an Owl, then maybe you'll hit that with a roll (if you even know to check) - still not getting it passively though.

Using Hide to roll for Dex (Stealth) lets you override the normal DC - it is not the only DC in play. Otherwise, you would know the exact position of the postman half-way around the world.

[diplomancer]

Don't know where this thread went after this; I'll probably get through it with a bit of time.

Anyway, yup. This is one of 5e's weakest areas, given almost zero guidance to DMs. There is a fair amount about vision (and even that is poorly done; looking at you opaque darkness). When vision is not applicable it is merely mentioned you can detect via other methods. Thats it. Thanks 5e.

You can put a few pieces together to help; a Wisdom (Perception) check is required to detect something. Alright, whats the DC? *the DC you are looking for cannot be found!*
Ok, so, guess thats up to the DM. Wait, why aren't we always rolling then? Well, you can automatically pass checks, no rolling required. The presumption is that sight checks would have such a low DC that they would be automatically passed - unless the creature is using a Stealth check which does tell you the DC.

So, what about hearing, or smell, or thermosensation, or electroreception, or any other potential sense? That DC is going to need the DM to set. It would theorectically take environmental *noise* (so sounds for hearing, scents for smelling, etc.) into account, and the noise level that would likely be presented by the target at that distance. The DC to hear a spider 20ft away while a fire is crackling merrily nearby? Probably like 30 or something. Cats are also next to silent even when not attempting to sneak. Now, if you have Keen Hearing, like an Owl, then maybe you'll hit that with a roll (if you even know to check) - still not getting it passively though.

While I definitely agree with you that there is too little guidance for DMs, I don't think it's that big of a problem, as long as DMs don't think, either from a misreading of RAW or from previous editions ideas, that there IS a guidance for them, I.e, that creatures who don't use Stealth are automatically detected by sound at an arbitrary distance.

It's also not that big of a problem if DMs make rules that are:
1- Consistent
2- Clearly communicated to the players and
3- when in doubt, favoring the players. They're the heroes of the story.

Otherwise, you would know the exact position of the postman half-way around the world.

Hear, hear. Or, as I put it earlier in the thread, why scout at all if the position (and therefore at least size) of every creature that's not hiding is automatically known at any distance?

[Goobahfish]

This reminds me of superman where he can hear things on other planets... somehow...

If there is no limit to hearing range... and non-stealth => not hidden.

All PCs are superman?

[diplomancer]

This reminds me of superman where he can hear things on other planets... somehow...

If there is no limit to hearing range... and non-stealth => not hidden.

All PCs are superman?

If it was only PCs...

Everyone's Superman.

[Dr.Samurai]

All PCs are superman?

Yes, but there's an easy counter.

Just proclaim that you are a silent animal. Choose any animal you can turn into, and proclaim they are silent; you can find a compilation of animals that are not trying to hide, including humans and bears, etc, accidentally startling people. Link that video here, and say "See, x animal is perfectly silent when moving, even when they're not trying to sneak". Once you've made this ironclad argument, you've circumvented the Stealth mechanic. And since you don't have to roll, you can never be perceived. So Superman can hear everyone on the entire planet, except you!!! Because you're not hiding, BUT you told the DM that you're really quiet.

[Tanarii]

Keep in mind that if you're using an activity that captures you attention, you don't get to use passive perception. So you won't detect anything. Examples given are Tracking, Navigating, Foraging, and one other I can t recall right now. But a DM should rule it for any engrossing activity that crosses this very low bar for going beyond "distracted" (merely disadvantage).

So don't forget to account for that in your various arguments to each extreme.

[Aimeryan]

Yes, but there's an easy counter.

Just proclaim that you are a silent animal. Choose any animal you can turn into, and proclaim they are silent; you can find a compilation of animals that are not trying to hide, including humans and bears, etc, accidentally startling people. Link that video here, and say "See, x animal is perfectly silent when moving, even when they're not trying to sneak". Once you've made this ironclad argument, you've circumvented the Stealth mechanic. And since you don't have to roll, you can never be perceived. So Superman can hear everyone on the entire planet, except you!!! Because you're not hiding, BUT you told the DM that you're really quiet.

Humans moving on fine carpet near a blacksmith at work will very much be silent by virtue of being drowned out by environmental noise. Picking out a sound is very much contextual, but yeah, some creatures have it a lot easier - like cats. I live with two cats and we have carpet near everywhere; unless they are using the scratching post or some other particularly noisy thing I never hear them. They aren't trying to sneak, they are just naturally really quiet creatures. Now my partner, they are pretty easy to hear most of the time, but if the TV is on I have been startled even without them trying to sneak. Noise is contextual.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Noise is contextual.

And that, for me, is why "leave it up to the DM to sort through it all and make a judgement call" is the best option. Sight is fairly unambiguous and binary. At least for human like creatures. Sound, smell, etc? Way too context and detail sensitive to have a hard and fast rule. At most you get heuristics at the game level (things like "undetectable assassins and spies aren't so much fun for either side in a team game") that aren't 100% rules, just things to consider.