Sneaking Imp Chain Familiar vs the World: an analysis (data collected)

[Unoriginal]

The claim that the Chain Warlock's Imp Familiar is a superlative scout is a common one, but I have never seen a data analysis to back it up.

Therefore, I shall endeavor to provide one.

Methodology:

As the claim is usually that the Imp's flying sneaking capacities gives them the edge in scouting (with their sapience, opposable thumbs and regular Familiar perks being good secondary points), I will compare said capacities (the Imp having +5 to Dex (Stealth) checks and at-will invisibility, which lets them attempt to hide everywhere unless the creatures have some manner to counter it) to the perception capacities (Passive Perception + anything that would help or hinder them to detect the Imp) of all creatures from CR 0 to CR 10 in the MM, Volo's and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foe, and see what percentage of chance the Imp has to sneak around the given creature.

Creatures which possess a sense that could locate the flying, invisible Imp beside hearing will indicated by an *. This has no impact on the situation being analysed here (Dex (Stealth) check vs passive Perception), but could be relevant on the question of if the situation is happening or not.

Creatures which possess a sense that can outright ignore the invisibility (and such negate the "hide anywhere" perk of invisibility), but only in a specific area will be indicated by an O.

This analysis is not and does not intend to be an analysis of the total of the Imp's effectiveness as a scout.

The Data:

Spoiler: All Data Collected

Show

Creature's name: Chance of success of the Imp Familiar in %

Aarakocra: 55%

Abjurer: 75%

Aboleth: 30%

Abominable Yeti: 55%

Abyssal Wretch: 85%

Acolyte: 70%

Adult Kruthik: 50% *

Adult Oblex: 60% O

Air Elemental: 80%

Air Elemental Myrmidon: 80%

Alhoon: 45% O

Allip: 55%

Allosaurus: 55%

Animated Armor: 100% O

Ankheg: 75%

Ankylosaurus: 75%

Annis Hag: 55%

Ape: 65%

Apprentice Wizard: 80%

Archer: 55%

Armanite: 75%

Assassin: 65%

Aurochs: 75%

Autumn Eladrin: 65%

Awakened Shrub: 80%

Awakened Tree: 80%

Axe Beak: 80%

Azer: 75%

Babau: 55%

Baboon: 75%

Badger: 50% *

Banderhobb: 70%

Bandit: 80%

Bandit Captain: 80%

Banshee: 80% but knows the general direction of the Imp if the Imp is within 5 miles

Barbed Devil: 40%

Bard: 55%

Barghest: 30% *

Barlgura: 50% O

Basilisk: 85%

Bat: 75% O

Bearded Devil: 80%

Beholder Zombie: 85%

Berbalang: 70%

Berserker: 80%

Bheur Hag: 60%

Black Abishai: 50%

Black Bear: 40% *

Black Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Black Guard Drake: 70%

Blackguard: 70%

Black Pudding: 90% O

Blink Dog: 65% *

Blood Hawk: 60%

Blue Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Blue Guard Drake: 70%

Blue Slaad: 75%

Boar: 85%

Bodak: 60% (or 80% in sunlight)

Boggle: 65%

Bone Devil: 70%

Bone Naga: 70%

Brass Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Brontosaurus: 80%

Bronze Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Bronze Scout: 50%

Brown Bear: 40% *

Bugbear: 80%

Bugbear Chief: 75%

Bulette: 50%

Bulezau: 85%

Bullywug: 80%

Cambion: 60%

Camel: 85%

Canoloth: 35% O

Carrion Crawler: 65%

Cat: 40% *

Catoblepas: 45% *

Cave Bear: 40% *

Cave Fisher: 70%

Centaur: 65%

Chain Devil: 75%

Champion: 50%

Chasme: 55% O

Chimera: 40%

Chitine: 80% O

Choker: 75%

Choldrith: 70%

Conjurer: 75%

Corpse Flower: 70%

Chuul: 60%

Clay Golem: 85%

Cloaker: 75%

Cloud Giant: 20% *

Cockatrice: 75%

Commoner: 80%

Constrictor Snake: 80% O

Copper Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Couatl: 55% O

Cow: 80%

Crab: 85% O

Cranium Rat: 80%

Crawling Claw: 80% O

Crocodile: 80%

Cult Fanatic: 75%

Cultist: 80%

Cyclops: 90%

Darkling: 55% O

Darkling Elder: 50% O

Darkmantle: 80% O

Death Dog: 30%

Death Kiss: 55%

Deathlock: 75%

Deathlock Mastermind: 60%

Deathlock Wight: 60%

Death Slaad: 40% O

Deep Gnome (Svirfneblin): 70%

Deep Rothé: 80%

Deep Scion: 75%

Deer: 70%

Deinonychus: 65%

Derro: 95%

Derro Savant: 95%

Deva: 35%

Dhergoloth: 80% O

Dimetrodon: 70%

Dire Wolf: 40% *

Displacer Beast: 75%

Diviner: 75%

Dolphin: 65%

Doppelganger: 75%

Draegloth: 65%

Draft Horse: 80%

Dretch: 85%

Drider: 55%

Drow: 70%

Drow Elite Warrior: 60%

Drow House Captain: 50%

Drow Mage: 60%

Drow Priestess of Lolth: 50%

Druid: 60%

Dryad: 60%

Duergar: 80%

Duergar Hammerer: 95%

Duergar Kavalrachni: 80%

Duergar Mind Master: 70% O

Duergar Screamer: 95%

Duergar Soulblade: 80%

Duergar Stone Guard: 80%

Duergar Warlord: 75%

Duergar Xarrorn: 80%

Duodrone: 80% O

Dust Mephit: 70%

Dybbuk: 60%

Eagle: 60%

Earth Elemental: 80%

Earth Elemental Myrmidon: 80%

Elder Oblex: 55% O

Elephant: 80%

Elk: 80%

Enchanter: 75%

Ettercap: 65% O

Ettin: 35%

Evoker: 75%

Faerie Dragon: 65%

Female Steede:r 60%

Fire Elemental: 80%

Fire Elemental Myrmidon: 80%

Fire Giant: 50%

Fire Snake: 80%

Firenewt Warlock of Imix: 80%

Firenewt Warrior: 80%

Flail Snail: 80%

Flameskull: 70%

Flesh Golem: 80%

Flind: 55%

Flumph: 70%

Flying Snake: 75% O

Flying Sword: 95% O

Fomorian: 40%

Frog: 75%

Froghemoth: 35%

Frost Giant: 65%

Frost Salamander: 60%

Galeb Duhr: 75%

Gargoyle: 80%

Gas Spore: 100% O

Gauth: 55%

Gazer: 60%

Gelatinous Cube: 90% O

Ghast: 80%

Ghost: 75%

Ghoul: 80%

Giant Ape: 60%

Giant Badger: 50%

Giant Bat: 50%

Giant Boar: 90%

Giant Centipede: 90% O

Giant Constrictor Snake: 70% O

Giant Crab: 85% O

Giant Crocodile: 80%

Giant Eagle: 60%

Giant Elk: 60%

Giant Fire Beetle: 90% O

Giant Frog: 70%

Giant Goat: 75%

Giant Hyena: 65%

Giant Lizard: 80%

Giant Octopus: 60%

Giant Owl: 30%

Giant Poisonous Snake: 70% O

Giant Rat: 55% *

Giant Scorpion: 85% O

Giant Sea Horse: 75%

Giant Shark: 65% O

Giant Spider: 80% O

Giant Strider: 75%

Giant Toad: 80%

Giant Vulture: 40%

Giant Wasp: 80%

Giant Weasel: 40%

Giant Wolf Spider: 65% O

Gibbering Mouther: 80%

Giff: 75%

Girallon: 40% *

Githyanki Gish: 50%

Githyanki Knight: 70%

Githyanki Warrior: 75%

Githzerai Enlightened: 40%

Githzerai Monk: 60%

Githzerai Zerth: 50%

Glabrezu: 65% O

Gladiator: 75%

Gloom Weaver: 75%

Gnoll: 80%

Gnoll Fang of Yeenoghu: 80%

Gnoll Flesh Gnawer: 80%

Gnoll Hunter: 65%

Gnoll Pack Lord: 80%

Gnoll Witherling: 95%

Goat: 80%

Goblin: 85%

Goblin Boss: 85%

Gold Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Gorgon: 60%

Gray Ooze: 90% O

Gray Slaad: 45% O

Green Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Green Guard Drake: 70%

Green Hag: 60%

Green Slaad: 70% O

Grell: 60% O

Grick: 70%

Grick Alpha: 70%

Griffon: 55%

Grimlock: 40% O

Guard: 70%

Guardian Naga: 60%

Grung: 70%

Grung Elite Warrior: 70%

Grung Wildling: 60%

Hadrosaurus: 70%

Half-Ogre: 85%

Half-Red Dragon Veteran: 70% O

Harpy: 80%

Hawk: 60%

Hell Hound: 30%

Helmed Horror: 60% O

Hezrou: 75%

Hill Giant: 70%

Hippogriff: 55%

Hobgoblin: 80%

Hobgoblin Captain: 80%

Hobgoblin Devastator: 75%

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 70%

Hobgoblin Warlord: 80%

Homunculus: 80%

Hook Horror: 40% O

Howler: 55%

Hunter Shark: 70% O

Hydra: 50%

Hydroloth: 60% O

Hyena: 65%

Ice Mephit: 70%

Illusionist: 80%

Imp: 75%

In/Succubus: 55%

Intellect Devourer: 70 O (within 300ft)

Invisible Stalker: 40%

Iron Cobra: 80%

Jackal: 40%

Jackalwere: 45%

Kenku: 70%

Killer Whale: 65% O

Knight: 80%

Kobold: 90%

Kobold Dragonshield: 75%

Kobold Inventor: 80%

Kobold Scale Sorcerer: 85%

Korred: 55%

Kuo-toa: 60% O (+pinpoint moving invisible creatures within 30ft)

Kuo-toa Archpriest: 35%% O (+pinpoint moving invisible creatures within 30ft)

Kuo-toa Monitor: 45% O (+pinpoint moving invisible creatures within 30ft)

Kuo-toa Whip: 45% O (+pinpoint moving invisible creatures within 30ft)

Kraken Priest: 55%

Kruthik Hive Lord: 45% *

Lamia: 70%

Lemure: 80%

Leucrotta: 40% *

Lion: 40%

Lizard: 85%

Lizard King/Queen: 60%

Lizardfolk: 65%

Lizardfolk Shaman: 60%

Mage: 75%

Magma Mephit: 80%

Magmin: 80%

Male Steeder: 60%

Mammoth: 80%

Manes: 85%

Manticore: 75%

Martial Arts Adept: 65%

Master Thief: 65%

Mastiff: 40% *

Maurezhi: 75%

Maw Demon: 85%

Meazel: 65%

Medusa: 60%

Meenlock: 60%

Merregon: 75%

Merrenoloth: 60% O

Merfolk: 70%

Merrow: 80%

Mezzoloth: 65% O

Mimic: 75%

Mind Flayer: 50%

Mindwitness: 40%

Minotaur: 45%

Minotaur Skeleton: 75%

Monodrone: 80%

Mouth of Grolantor: 75%

Mud Mephit: 80%

Mule: 80%

Mummy: 80%

Myconid Adult: 75% (100% in sunlight)

Myconid Sovereign: 70% (95% in sunlight)

Myconid Sprout: 80% (100% in sunlight)

Necromancer: 75%

Needle Blight: 85% O

Neogi: 65%

Neogi Hatchling: 80%

Neogi Master: 65%

Night Hag: 50%

Nightmare: 75%

Nilbog: 85%

Noble: 70%

Nothic: 70% O (or 45% within the area)

Nupperibo: 75% O

Nycaloth: 60% O

Oaken Bolter: 80%

Ochre Jelly: 90% O

Oblex Spawn: 70% (95% if damaged by fire in the same turn) O

Octopus: 70%

Ogre: 90%

Ogre Battering Ram: 90%

Ogre Bolt Launcher: 90%

Ogre Chain Brute: 90%

Ogre Howdah: 90%

Ogre Zombie: 90%

Oni: 60%

Orc: 80%

Orc Blade of Ilneval: 65%

Orc Claw of Luthic: 70%

Orc Eye of Gruumsh: 75%

Orc Hand of Yurtrus: 70%

Orc Nurtured One of Yurtrus: 80%

Orc Red Fang of Shargaas: 70%

Orc War Chief: 80%

Orog: 80%

Orthon: 30% O

Otyugh: 75%

Owl: 40%

Owlbear: 40%

Ox: 80%

Panther: 35% *

Pegasus: 50%

Pentadrone: 60% O

Peryton: 30%

Phase Spider: 80%

Piercer: 90% O

Pixie: 60%

Plesiosaurus: 65%

Poisonous Snake: 80% O

Polar Bear: 40% *

Poltergeist: 80%

Pony: 80%

Priest: 65%

Pseudodragon: 40% O

Pteranodon: 75%

Quadrone: 70% O

Quaggoth: 75%

Quaggoth Spore Servant: 90% O

Quaggoth Thonot: 75% (maybe typo on the statblock?)

Quasit: 80%

Quetzalcoatlus: 70%

Quickling: 55%

Quipper: 90%

Rat: 55% *

Raven: 65%

Red Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Red Guard Drake: 70%

Red Slaad: 75%

Redcap: 65%

Reef Shark: 70% O

Revenant: 65%

Rhinoceros: 75%

Riding Horse: 80%

Roper: 50%

Rot Troll: 65%

Rothé: 80%

Rug of Smothering: 100% O

Rust Monster: 75%

Rutterkin: 75%

Saber-Toothed Tiger: 40%

Sahuagin: 55%

Sahuagin Baron: 45%

Sahuagin Priestess: 50%

Salamander: 80%

Satyr: 70%

Scarecrow: 80%

Scorpion: 85%

Scout: 30%

Sea Hag: 75%

Sea Horse: 80%

Sea Spawn: 80%

Shadow: 80% (100% in sunlight)

Shadow Dancer: 75%

Shadow Demon: 75%

Shadow Mastiff: 40% (or 65% in sunlight) *

Shambling Mound: 80%

Shield Guardian: 80% O

Shrieker: 100% O

Shoosuva: 70%

Silver Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

Skeleton: 85%

Skulk: 90%

Slaad Tadpole: 95%

Slithering Tracker: 70% O

Smoke Mephit: 70%

Spawn of Kyuss: 90%

Spectator: 50%

Specter: 80%

Spider: 80% O

Spined Devil: 70%

Spirit Naga: 70%

Spring Eladrin: 80%

Sprite: 65%

Spy: 50%

Star Spawn Grue: 80%

Star Spawn Hulk: 55%

Star Spawn Mangler: 75%

Steam Mephit: 80%

Stegosaurus: 80%

Stench Kow: 80%

Stirge: 85%

Stone Cursed: 85%

Stone Defender: 80%

Stone Giant: 60%

Stone Giant Dreamwalker: 65%

Stone Golem: 80%

Summer Eladrin: 85% (typo in the book? Should have passive Per at 11, not 9)

Swarm of Bats: 50% O

Swarm of Beetles: 90% O

Swarm of Centipedes: 90% O

Swarm of Cranium Rats: 80%

Swarm of Insects: 90% O

Swarm of Poisonous Snakes: 80% O

Swarm of Quippers: 90%

Swarm of Rats: 55%

Swarm of Ravens: 50%

Swarm of Rot Grubs: 100% O

Swarm of Spiders: 90% O

Swarm of Wasps: 90% O

Swashbuckler: 80%

Sword Wraith Commander: 60%

Sword Wraith Warrior: 85%

Tanarukk: 70%

The Lonely: 80%

The Lost: 90%

The Wretched: 90%

Thorny: 60%

Thri-kreen: 65%

Thug: 80%

Tiger: 40% *

Tlincalli: 60%

Tortle: 75%

Tortle Druid: 70%

Transmuter: 75%

Trapper: 75% O

Treant: 65%

Triceratops: 80%

Tridrone: 80% O

Troglodyte: 80%

Troll: 45% *

Twig Blight: 85% O

Tyrannosaurus Rex: 60%

Umber Hulk: 80%

Unicorn: 65%

Ulitharid: 40% O (2 miles)

Vampire Spawn: 65%

Vampiric Mist: 75% O (100% if in sunlight)

Vargouille: 90%

Vegepygmy: 70%

Vegepygmy Chief: 65%

Velociraptor: 65%

Venom Troll: 45 *

Veteran: 70%

Vine Blight: 80% O

Violet Fungus: 100% O

Vrock: 75%

Vulture: 40% *

Warhorse: 75%

Warhorse Skeleton: 85%

War Priest: 65%

Warlock of the Archfey: 75%

Warlock of the Fiend: 75%

Warlock of the Great Old One: 75%

Water Elemental: 80%

Water Elemental Myrmidon: 80%

Water Weird: 80% O

Weasel: 40% *

Werebear: 20% *

Wereboar: 70%

Wererat: 45% *

Weretiger: 30% *

Werewolf: 35% *

White Abishai: 75%

White Dragon Wyrmling: 60% O

White Guard Drake: 70%

Wight: 65%

Will-o'-Wisp: 70%

Winged Kobold: 90%

Winter Eladrin: 65%

Winter Wolf: 30%

Wood Woad: 60%

Wolf: 40%

Worg: 35%

Wraith: 70%

Wyvern: 60%

Xorn: 50%

Xvart: 90%

Xvart Speaker: 90%

Xvart Warlock of Raxivort: 80%

Yeth Hound: 50%

Yeti: 40%

Yochlol: 70%

Young Black Dragon: 50% O

Young Blue Dragon: 35% O

Young Brass Dragon: 50% O

Young Bronze Dragon: 45% O

Young Copper Dragon: 45% O

Young Gold Dragon: 35% O

Young Green Dragon: 45% O

Young Kruthik: 55%

Young Red Dragon: 40% O

Young Remorhaz: 80%

Young Silver Dragon: 40% O

Young White Dragon: 50% O

Yuan-ti Abomination: 55%

Yuan-ti Broodguard: 70%

Yuan-ti Malison: 75%

Yuan-ti Mind Whisperer: 70%

Yuan-ti Nightmare Speaker: 75%

Yuan-ti Pit Master: 75%

Yuan-ti Pureblood: 65%

Zombie: 90%

[Kane0]

I'm not sure how you also mathematically represent the fact that it can also fly while retaining usable hands and 120' devil darkvision, but I think it's worth mentioning.

Total Fire immunity too, an Imp sitting invisible in a fireplace or campfire is a great eavesdropper.

[diplomancer]

It's also DM dependent. For instance, does being invisible give you advantage to hide? RAW on hiding or invisible says nothing, but RAW on advantage/disadvantage says "The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.", and losing what is the main sense as a way of detection for a lot of creatures would definitely count as one of those circumstances.

Others DM might go even further, and consider how silent a spider is when moving across a floor/wall, and just auto-rule that only creatures with special senses (either keen senses:smell or another applicable game sense) has even a chance at all of detecting the invisible spider happily moving along the wall.

I'd say either Advantage to hide or Disadvantage to detect would be almost universal. Auto-pass less so, even if just because people like rolling dice.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's also DM dependent. For instance, does being invisible give you advantage to hide? RAW on hiding or invisible says nothing, but RAW on advantage/disadvantage says "The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.", and losing what is the main sense as a way of detection for a lot of creatures would definitely count as one of those circumstances.

Others DM might go even further, and consider how silent a spider is when moving across a floor/wall, and just auto-rule that only creatures with special senses (either keen senses:smell or another applicable game sense) has even a chance at all of detecting the invisible spider happily moving along the wall.

I'd say either Advantage to hide or Disadvantage to detect would be almost universal. Auto-pass less so, even if just because people like rolling dice.

Yes, when you give a spell/effect more power than it says it does, it becomes more powerful.

It doesn't say it does, so it doesn't, by default. And I've never had a DM that gave advantage to hide or disadvantage to detect. Nor would I rule that way. And I would absolutely protest if a DM gave an auto-pass. Invisibility is already strong enough. It doesn't need extra power. Spells do exactly and only what they say they do.

Also, if you're a spider, you can't use your hands or fly. Which means you're giving up a lot of the utility of being an imp.

[Unoriginal]

Others DM might go even further, and consider how silent a spider is when moving across a floor/wall

Also, if you're a spider, you can't use your hands or fly. Which means you're giving up a lot of the utility of being an imp.

The Imp explicitly does not get any perk from turning into a spider, except the climb speed.

Nothing indicates the Imp's size changes, either, so we're talking about a noticeable spider.

Yes, when you give a spell/effect more power than it says it does, it becomes more powerful.

It doesn't say it does, so it doesn't, by default.

Indeed.

While DMs are of course free to do more than the default, it is not the default.

Total Fire immunity too, an Imp sitting invisible in a fireplace or campfire is a great eavesdropper.

An Imp sitting in a fire will likely be pretty noticeable, even if they're invisible.

Invisible spies don't want to stand in the middle of something that can reveal the outline of their bodies.

[PhoenixPhyre]

An Imp sitting in a fire will likely be pretty noticeable, even if they're invisible.

Invisible spies don't want to stand in the middle of something that can reveal the outline of their bodies.

Yeah. It's amazing how people seem to believe that being invisible is more like being immaterial except you can't pass through solid objects.

You're still there, your wings (if flying) still beat, your breathing still disturbs air, your scent is still there. If you fly through fog, you leave eddies. If you walk through mud, you still leave tracks. The only thing invisibility does is defeat direct sight. Anything else is more of the "it's magic, so it gets special hidden features" favoritism so common to D&D discussions.

[animorte]

Invisible spies don't want to stand in the middle of something that can reveal the outline of their bodies.

Depends on the size of the fire (or whatever the something is).

Nice work on collecting that list in the OP. I think it's valuable for us to figure out the Imp's potential as a scout. However, it will be even more valuable when we start comparing everything it's up against and relevant levels/success/what-have-you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Depends on the size of the fire (or whatever the something is).

Nice work on collecting that list in the OP. I think it's valuable for us to figure out the Imp's potential as a scout. However, it will be even more valuable when we start comparing everything it's up against and relevant levels/success/what-have-you.

For reference, a +5 is low for a level 1 rogue with expertise in stealth--even with a +3 in DEX the rogue would have a +7 to Stealth. And the difference only grows with level (the imp is fixed stats). The only real advantage the imp has is in a straight stealth contest is invisibility.

And there are a plethora of magic items that grant advantage on Stealth/disadvantage to perceive them. And features such as the Wood Elf Mark of the Wild, the Skulker feat, etc. give most of the advantage that invisibility does...and the wizard can cast invisibility on the rogue starting at level 3.

In addition, the rogue can much more intelligently figure out what's going on and what's important as a full PC compared to the imp's NPC status (because yes, familiars are NPCs, not remote-piloted drones/extensions of the PC even if they do obey orders). Their investigation and perception is likely to be a crap-ton better as well (the imp has proficiency in neither and middling INT/WIS scores). And might be able to disengage (more general meaning, not the action) and flee if detected, whereas the imp is just gonna get squashed. 20 effective HP (including resistance) on a low AC is dead meat.

[Kane0]

You guys are no fun I didn't say they were undetectable, the fire that everyone is likely sitting and talking around is just a convenient place to get some good listening in.

Edit: Anecdotally, my current party has passive perception 13 as their best right now, so there's a very good chance that +5 stealth would beat us.

[Unoriginal]

Nice work on collecting that list in the OP.

Thank you. I'm far from finished, but I needed a break and didn't want risking to lose all my work if I didn't post what I had.

I think it's valuable for us to figure out the Imp's potential as a scout. However, it will be even more valuable when we start comparing everything it's up against and relevant levels/success/what-have-you.

True, this is only one part of the data to consider.

...and the wizard can cast invisibility on the rogue starting at level 3.

Which is the same level a Warlock needs to be to have their Imp-shaped familiar.

[animorte]

If we're assuming external features utilized to improve scouting capability (e.g. Wizard cast Invisibility on the Rogue) then it's also worth noting the Imp can equally be the target of any such spells (though it obviously doesn't need help with invisibility).

I know we can't get a full picture without looking at all possibilities, but I would recommend we start at level 3 (for all potential scouts) and work from there whilst treating the Imp as equally buff-able.

[diplomancer]

Yes, when you give a spell/effect more power than it says it does, it becomes more powerful.

It doesn't say it does, so it doesn't, by default. And I've never had a DM that gave advantage to hide or disadvantage to detect. Nor would I rule that way. And I would absolutely protest if a DM gave an auto-pass. Invisibility is already strong enough. It doesn't need extra power. Spells do exactly and only what they say they do.

Also, if you're a spider, you can't use your hands or fly. Which means you're giving up a lot of the utility of being an imp.

All DMs I've played with gave Advantage, and probably never even thought about it, it just comes naturally. I believe a case could be made that it'd make more sense to give Disadvantage to detect (for creatures that rely mostly on sight), but I'm not sure about the mathematical difference.

"It doesn't say it does so it doesn't" is not a rule. DMs are definitely justified in applying advantage/disadvantage in that regard, based on the rule I quoted alone. What does it even mean to be blinded to detect an invisible creature if you can still detect it as easily as before just by other senses (even more so for species in which sight is the most dominant sense, which are most humanoid species? )

Truth is, the rules on senses are very badly defined. Dim Light gives disadvantage on Perception checks relying on sight. So all I need to do to get rid of that disadvantage is to use my other senses, disadvantage-free, to detect other creatures? Breathing makes noise, after all. And the game does not give different DCs for different senses, even though it's a lot harder to hear someone breathing than to notice him right next to you.


Imps can shape-shift freely. They can move as spiders and then turn into their usual shape to manipulate an object, then go back to being a spider to move again along the wall. And it's have to be a very quiet room to hear a spider move across the wall, even if it's a tarantula.

There's also zero rules about how big an Imp is in the first place, except that it's Tiny. It could be as small as a fly for all we know. Try to find one of those by listening or smelling, unless it's quite close to you!

[Gignere]

Also a lot of times the enemies are only relying on darkvision in total darkness where the imp has perfect darkvision. So many of your statistics need to be adjusted for disadvantage, unless all your enemies carry some kind of light source. Even then so the 120 feet vision it’ll likely be that the imp sees things way before others see him especially dungeon crawling.

[diplomancer]

Also a lot of times the enemies are only relying on darkvision in total darkness where the imp has perfect darkvision. So many of your statistics need to be adjusted for disadvantage, unless all your enemies carry some kind of light source. Even then so the 120 feet vision it’ll likely be that the imp sees things way before others see him especially dungeon crawling.

Ah, but you see, they don't have disadvantage, because they're not relying on sight! They'd only have disadvantage if the Imp was visible, since it's invisible it's a regular roll!. Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's the RAW!, and goodness forbid a DM think that there's something wrong with that logic.

[Kane0]

Ah, but you see, they don't have disadvantage, because they're not relying on sight! They'd only have disadvantage if the Imp was visible, since it's invisible it's a regular roll!. Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's the RAW!, and goodness forbid a DM think that there's something wrong with that logic.

Okay you got me, now I need a new coffee.

[Unoriginal]

Also a lot of times the enemies are only relying on darkvision in total darkness where the imp has perfect darkvision. So many of your statistics need to be adjusted for disadvantage, unless all your enemies carry some kind of light source. Even then so the 120 feet vision it’ll likely be that the imp sees things way before others see him especially dungeon crawling.

Light conditions do not matter when the Imp is already invisible.

If you think the data I present is insufficiently discerning, I encourage you to present your own, with your own criteria and methodology.

Ah, but you see, they don't have disadvantage, because they're not relying on sight! They'd only have disadvantage if the Imp was visible, since it's invisible it's a regular roll!. Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's the RAW!, and goodness forbid a DM think that there's something wrong with that logic.

Invisible creatures cannot be seen, regardless of the light conditions.

If the check was for seeing the Imp, all of them would be automatic failure, unless the one doing the check has an ability to see the invisible.

Even if a visible creature is obscured, you do not get disadvantage on WIS (Perception) checks to notice them unless the check is based on sight alone. Ex: if the creature is under the effect of a Zone of Silence and as such cannot be heard.

[Psyren]

Nothing indicates the Imp's size changes, either, so we're talking about a noticeable spider.

Aren't Imps and Spiders both Tiny? I'm not saying it's unnoticeable, but "more noticeable than any other spider" is going to be a DM call.

[Gignere]

Light conditions do not matter when the Imp is already invisible.

If you think the data I present is insufficiently discerning, I encourage you to present your own, with your own criteria and methodology.

I have never had a DM ruled that because the enemy is invisible you wouldn’t have disadvantage to see if you relied on darkvision in total darkness to see the invisible creature.

[diplomancer]

Light conditions do not matter when the Imp is already invisible.

If you think the data I present is insufficiently discerning, I encourage you to present your own, with your own criteria and methodology.




Invisible creatures cannot be seen, regardless of the light conditions.

If the check was for seeing the Imp, all of them would be automatic failure, unless the one doing the check has an ability to see the invisible.

Even if a visible creature is obscured, you do not get disadvantage on WIS (Perception) checks to notice them unless the check is based on sight alone. Ex: if the creature is under the effect of a Zone of Silence and as such cannot be heard.

We are pointing out that your methodology is not applicable in many tables. We're also ponting out that the reason for that is that your methodology creates absurdities, like the one I pointed out above.

[Unoriginal]

I have never had a DM ruled that because the enemy is invisible you wouldn’t have disadvantage to see if you relied on darkvision in total darkness to see the invisible creature.

I would be rather confused by a DM declaring that you can see the invisible being with disadvantage if you are in total darkness and have the capacity to see poorly when in total darkness.

Invisible creatures cannot be seen. At all.

[Gignere]

I would be rather confused by a DM declaring that you can see the invisible with disadvantage if you are in total darkness and have the capacity to see poorly when in total darkness.

Invisible creatures cannot be seen. At all.

No but the examples given in the book on how you can perceive an invisible but not hidden creature includes visuals like you may notice their footprints or other visible phenomena. So vision can and helps you perceive invisible but not hidden creature.

[Unoriginal]

No but the examples given in the book on how you can perceive an invisible but not hidden creature includes visuals like you may notice their footprints or other visible phenomena. So vision can and helps you perceive invisible but not hidden creature.

Invisible but not hidden creatures are noticed regardless. Notably with the sounds they make and are not trying to conceal.

The case presented in the OP is of an invisible Imp in the process of hiding.

We are pointing out that your methodology is not applicable in many tables.

Comparing +5 to DEX (Stealth) checks with Invisibility vs passive Perception is not applicable in many tables?

[diplomancer]

Invisible but not hidden creatures are noticed regardless. Notably with the sounds they make and are not trying to conceal.

What's the sound a spider (or a centipede, for that matter-check quasit) makes while moving along a wall, whether it's trying to conceal it or not? I've never heard them make any sound. Game doesn't say it. DM decides, as well as decides how close any particular creature has to be to the spider to even have a chance of hearing the sound it makes.

Comparing +5 to DEX (Stealth) checks with Invisibility vs passive Perception is not applicable in many tables?

No, it's not, for reasons pointed above, if you rule that invisibility makes no difference at all to the Stealth check. It gets into comical levels of absurdity if you claim that it's easier to perceive an invisible imp in darkness with dark vision than it is to perceive a visible one.

Invisible creatures cannot be seen. At all.

Does sound (or look 😉) like the sort of situation when

"The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result."

(and I quote the PHB here precisely to show that, yes, this is well covered by the rules. D&D is not a computer-run game. )

The game simply does not have clear rules about adjudicating the roles of different senses. It's absolutely silent (pun not intended) on hearing distance ranges (very relevant to this particular question, a tiny spider on a wall is all but undetectable by human ears, unless perhaps the ear is pressed right next to the spider; but it would be ridiculous to come up with rules for it for all types of different creatures- which is why it's left up to the DM).

Whatever methodology you come up with will be helpful for your table, but not for others, because this is an area that the game chose to leave to DM adjudication.

[Tanarii]

Invisibility lets you hide without total cover or concealment. Enemies auto fail checks to see you.

It doesn't protect against seeing signs of your presence from disturbing the environment. Checks to spot those would take disadvantage in Dim light. DM fiat on if you might be causing those, and the range what range you can see those at without a stealth check.

It doesn't stop you from making noise. DM fiat on range you can be heard at without a stealth check, and what range requires one. You don't get disadvantage from dim light. (Dm might still impose it from environmental noise.)

You use the best sense to detect an enemy. If you're too far away to hear even without a stealth check, but within range to see disturbances unless they make a stealth check, you take disadvantage in dim light. If you're close enough to hear them unless they make a stealth check, you don't.

They certainly do NOT get advantage on their stealth check because they are invisible, that's definitely a house rule.

Edit: after reading the PF2e rules on hiding, I'm wish this wasn't an area 5e designers had just said "DM determines" so much stuff. Because many DMs seem to think you can hear an archer in a fog cloud 100ft away well enough to pinpoint their location.

[Kane0]

Edit: after reading the PF2e rules on hiding, I'm wish this wasn't an area 5e designers had just said "DM determines" so much stuff.

Well that's what we have the UAs and surveys for.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ah, but you see, they don't have disadvantage, because they're not relying on sight! They'd only have disadvantage if the Imp was visible, since it's invisible it's a regular roll!. Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's the RAW!, and goodness forbid a DM think that there's something wrong with that logic.

I'm missing how this is more absurd than taking a penalty to your other senses because you can't see something.

Like... pretend I'm blindfolded and there's an imp in the room with me. You're saying I should suffer disadvantage to smell, hear, or feel it, because I'm Blindfolded and the room is dark. How does that make any sense?

The Invisible condition says you are impossible to see. But, notably, you are not hidden, because people can still hear you. You have to Stealth. Until you do, everyone knows exactly where you are despite being impossible to see. That's how the game works. The PCs are action heroes.

So the imp is invisible and I'm relying on Darkvision to move around. But I'm not relying on Darkvision to smell the imp, hear it's claws tap the stone floor when it lands, feel the air as its wings beat, etc. so the Disadvantage from Dim Light should not apply.

With regards to spiders... I appreciate the appeals to realism but... a quick google search indicates the fastest spider clocks in at 1.7ft/second. That's a far cry from the 20ft walking and climb speed of the spider that the Imp transforms into. So... something tells me this isn't the itsy bitsy spiders that you find in your homes. Anything big enough to move that fast is going to make noise. Not to mention that nothing changes about the imp's statistics except those speeds, so now we'd have to argue that imps themselves are natively itsy bitsy spider size, which I don't think anyone runs that way.

So I think the OP is accurate for these purposes. DMs are free to grant Adv/Disadv as they see fit, but I don't think it's appropriate to assume that they will.

[animorte]

Like... pretend I'm blindfolded and there's an imp in the room with me. You're saying I should suffer disadvantage to smell, hear, or feel it, because I'm Blindfolded and the room is dark. How does that make any sense?

The Invisible condition says you are impossible to see. But, notably, you are not hidden, because people can still hear you. You have to Stealth. Until you do, everyone knows exactly where you are despite being impossible to see. That's how the game works. The PCs are action heroes.

That's precisely what Blind-Fighting is for as it specifically addresses what you are talking about, locating an invisible creature (or one you otherwise couldn't see) within 10 feet.

Tremorsense kind of helps with that too.

[Unoriginal]

That's precisely what Blind-Fighting is for as it specifically addresses what you are talking about, locating an invisible creature (or one you otherwise couldn't see) within 10 feet.

Tremorsense kind of helps with that too.

Not quite.

Invisibility grants advantage on attacks for the invisible one, and disadvantage for anyone trying to attack them, regardless of how stealthy the invisible one is. As in, even if they're a knight in full plate singing war songs at the top of their lungs.

Blind Fighting let you ignore that, so long as they're in the area around you.

[diplomancer]

I'm missing how this is more absurd than taking a penalty to your other senses because you can't see something.

Like... pretend I'm blindfolded and there's an imp in the room with me. You're saying I should suffer disadvantage to smell, hear, or feel it, because I'm Blindfolded and the room is dark. How does that make any sense?.

You're not taking a penalty to your other senses; you're taking a penalty to perceive the Imp at all, precisely because one of your senses (and your main sense at that) is useless in that regard.

There is no "hearing check" in D&D, only a Perception check (and hiding would be a lot harder if you could make different checks for different senses, simply because you'd make a lot of checks and the odds of you rolling well on one of them would be a lot higher; and if you were going for that, you'd probably have to have different DCs as well for each sense, which would be a needless complication; much better to make it one check, and leave it up to the DM to decide whether having one sense unavailable should give disadvantage or not).

And if we're talking passive perception- well, that naturally involves all your senses, having one of them be useless should lower it. No one hires blind guards with the thought "well, they can still hear just as well, so they can tell if a burglar is coming anyhow".

[stoutstien]

the 5e DM screen has a table on "Audible Distance" which reads:

Trying to be quiet: 2d6 x 5 feet
Normal noise level: 2d6 x 10 feet
Very loud: 2d6 x 50 feet

So we have a rough guide for hearing based wisdom checks or you know ...the DM could do what they are supposed to do and just stop assuming the rules are meant to be used to run the game at face value.