Adding a cost/risk to magic

[Kane0]

So I'm slowly picking away at development of my campaign world, and I'm looking to implement some sort of mechanic that promotes an older sword & sorcery style of play. What i'm NOT going to do is take away spellcasting or disallow certain classes, so what I'm aiming for is a careful consideration of much and how strong you use your magic, while also using this as a crucial worldbuilding element.

The current idea I'm messing around with is a small twist on the 'magic drives you mad' trope. Exposure to magic (using it or it being used on you) runs the risk of rendering you 'feral'. Only ideas for the mechanic (see below), but a feral creature always becomes an NPC, mutating into monstrous versions of themselves as it consumes them (for example grung get turned into bullywugs, tabaxi into gnolls, dragonborn into drakes, etc). Ferals form the bulk of intelligent, low to mid level enemies that were previously occupied by traditional fare like orcs and goblinoids (since those have been adapted into PC races).
Plus to drive the point home, once you're feral magic doesn't have any additional adverse affect on you, so civilized folk are always on the back foot, having to be very careful with their usage while the monsters of the world are under no such limitation. This provides a built-in reason why there aren't an abundance of archmages and high priests to solve all the world's problems, and if there are any they aren't going to be liberally applying magical solutions to everything.

Necromancy and mad science might even be a valuable but contentious medium of treating the buildup, or simply 'transferring' it to someone else.

But once you're feral, there's no known cure. The process is irreversible barring godlike intervention.

Oh, and any excessive magic use in a given area can also make them wild magic zones, which in turn spreads the 'feral plague' and means societies at large tend to take an extreme and harsh view on the study and use of magic even in controlled environments (for good reason).

Thoughts? Opinions? Third party content already doing this? Torches and Pitchforks?

Edit: New working draft!
When you cast a spell or use a magical ability (or are successfully subject to the same) roll a d20; the DC equals the level of the spell/spell slot, or otherwise the proficiency bonus of the caster/originator. Cantrips are exempt, rituals give you advantage on the roll and wild magic zones disadvantage. If you fail, you gain a level of feralization. [Number between 3 and 10] feral points and you're out. During a long rest you can attempt a Charisma saving throw against DC 10 + number of feral points you have accumulated to reduce it by 1, with advantage if someone administers you with a successful medicine check against the same DC.

Magic items are generally safe ('contained' during creation), with some exceptions like wands and staves.
In this campaign setting no races have innate access to spells (i'm providing 9 races specifically for the world), although under my rules I do offer level 1 feats so you can pick up magic initiate or the like that way.

[GeneralVryth]

My initial thought is no one is going to play a caster in your world, except maybe a Paladin depending on how this works with smite. The system is also a quintessential example of something that in practice only effects PCs. It also makes caster enemies to the party stronger for the same reasons, they are usually going to be one time foes while players need to deal with the consequences of the encounter potentially forever.

Short form this is a really bad idea unless you trying to bad casters and make them more dangerous for your players.

[sithlordnergal]

I rather like this risk to using magic over more standard risks that I see on the forum. It makes for a pretty fun risk/reward system, and adds some fun flavor to the world. My only nitpick would be this:

If a player turns feral, don't just turn them into an NPC. Instead, treat them closer to how you would treat a player that's turned into a Werewolf or Vampire. They still get to be their character, but they have the benefits and detriments of going feral. Both mechanically, and narratively. If you have an RP heavy group, add in permanent Insanity too. I.E. they can freely use magic with no bad effects, but they are no longer welcome in civilized society.

[animorte]

This makes me think of Fable. The more you used magic, the more it would start to show up on your body. It began to reflect in your alignment which would affect your interaction with others. Going more evil would sprout horns and dark scars and basically the permanent Cloak of Flies invocation. Just using magic in general would line your skin with glowing scars and the like.

Another note, this reminds me of Howl's Moving Castle as well. *spoiler* He can do all sorts of magic, but the more he uses it for the war, the form begins taking over. Then you realize so many of the things he has been fighting against are former mages that are now completely overcome by the form and... basically feral.

Anyway, those are interesting examples this reminded me of and if those provide some ideas to implement, nice!

...Oh, I got carried away and forgot to mention the Wild Magic function. I wouldn't do the same thing on full scale, but it may be worth considering a lesser form of it that grows with time, getting more out of control.

[Marcloure]

I don't want to sink you boat, but I don't think D&D is fit for this Sword and Sorcerery type of magic. There are other systems, or even earlier editions, that fit better this whole idea of magic being dangerous and corrupt.

[Kane0]

Another note, this reminds me of Howl's Moving Castle as well. *spoiler* He can do all sorts of magic, but the more he uses it for the war, the form begins taking over. Then you realize so many of the things he has been fighting against are former mages that are now completely overcome by the form and... basically feral.

Anyway, those are interesting examples this reminded me of and if those provide some ideas to implement, nice!

That wasn't a direct inspiration in this case, but yes that's the feel I'm going for. Magic is understood, but that doesn't make it safe.

[Tanarii]

I think you need to create all new classes. There are too many that depend on casting spells from early on.

Alternatively, choose a level of spells that you feel are okay to be commonly used by the sword guys, and only have ones above that level risk headsplosion... uh feral-ization by the sorcerer guys. That way you can have EKs and ATs and Rangers and Paladins, along with low level clerics wizards etc etc

Or just make feral-ization something that only full casters have to face.

Or better yet, since it's "sorcery" that should be bad to give that sword & sorcery feel, make it Arcane Spellcasting. That'll still put ATs and EKs at risk, along with the 3 "Sorcery" full casters Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock, plus Bards. But won't impact Paladins, Rangers, Clerics or Druids.

[Xihirli]

Maybe instead of rolling a save every time you cast a leveled spell but they don't do much until you fail a whole bunch, they make saves when they use up X# of spell slots in a day.
Maybe... 10? 10 slots in one day and you have to make a save?

EDIT: And maybe instead of just "you've failed an arbitrary number of saves, tear up your character sheet" it's every fail or every Y number of fails, you get a new flaw and they keep stacking up until the player's agreed "yeah I think we've passed the point of no return, NPC me."

[Kane0]

Running some quick testbed numbers:

When you cast a spell, Cha save against your Spell DC. Same thing if something (successfully) casts a spell on you. Which includes heals and buffs, so that'll be fun.
Anyways.
Fail the save, and you take on contamination equal to the spells level. You can handle half level (round down) + prof before you go feral.

So looking at some sample levels.
Level 2: 3
Level 6: 5
Level 12: 9
Level 16: 8 +
Level 20: 16

If you're a full caster, you start to actually feralize yourself at level 2 if you fail saves against all of your own spells
If you're a half caster, this starts at level 5 when you get a total of 8 spell levels compared to a capacity of 5
If you're a one-third caster, this starts at level 7, again when you get a total of 8 spell levels compared to a capacity of 6

And that's before failing saves vs others using magic on you.
So that's definitely punishing enough, but at least the majority of casters come with Charisma saves built in (Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers and Warlocks), plus there are plenty of ways to boost saves and this wouldn't be adding yet more emphasis on the Warcaster feat.

[rel]

Nice idea, I say go for it see if your players bite. The howling of the internet peanut gallery doesn't matter if the game at the table is working well.

I wouldn't tie the mechanic to any particular stat. That just makes some classes better than others. Just use proficiency, level or even a flat D20 roll (save on 11+ no matter what).

I don't think rituals should be exempt unless you go ham on the restrictions. A 10 minute cast time is a trivial challenge to overcome.

You might want to limit or remove the effect for the instant or very short duration combat spells.
Basically create a short list of Specific spells like fireball or smite that don't build up the bad vibes and have it apply to everything else as normal.
So your wizard or ranger can blast away in a fight but is less likely to circumvent a challenge entirely with a timely teleport.

You could even remove the other spells from the spell lists entirely and make them available to anyone as found rituals or similar.
Sure, anyone even the barbarian can learn the secrets of flight or teleportation. The monk can seek forbidden knowledge and learn the secret of casting mage armour.
But such power comes at a price...

Final thought; This system of slow buildup with no penalty until the end inadvertently incentivises a player playing a magic user as normal, with no regard for the contamination and simply rolling a new character whenever the old one goes feral.
Or just retiring the old characters when the buildup gets bad.

Not likely to come up at a lot of tables, but worth considering so it doesn't blindside you.

[animorte]

The howling of the internet peanut gallery doesn't matter if the game at the table is working well.

What a fabulous sentence.

+ Three and a half

[Segev]

Ever since reading a novel series where magic made the mage get older, I have been enamored of the idea of a system where it did the opposite. It would explain quite neatly the "unnaturally long-lived mage" trope, and comes with a cost and a natural recharge method (wait to get older again). It even sounds like a non-cost until you really think about it: use too much magic, and you're a kid again, or even a baby or...well, you could de-age to the point you're not able to survive without extensive care from others

Like "using magic ages you," though, this is very hard to put actual numbers to. In a narrative, you can just say that ehis or that use of minor magic is not enough to be a noticeable problem. But in designing a game system for this magic, hard numbers of how much age each spell level (or each spell, even) takes off becomes an important thing to calculate.

You need to determine how many spells you expect a mage to use in a given day, how often they should be able to use to that level and not deage in a way that will require cutting back, and how powerful a spell that uses a minute, and hour, a day, a month, a year is. Can one spell knock decades off? If so, how powerful is that spell? Certainly, it isn't something a human mage is casting very often or in quick succession!

[NichG]

Maybe do this but get rid of casting classes and let anyone with a reference and a skill church e attempt magic as if they were a caster, but with these risks in place (and worse if they flub the spell)

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah nah, that sounds like a really bad idea. Not only nobody will play a caster, why would any party risk having a caster in their ranks if they might go feral?

[animorte]

You need to determine how many spells you expect a mage to use in a given day, how often they should be able to use to that level and not deage in a way that will require cutting back, and how powerful a spell that uses a minute, and hour, a day, a month, a year is. Can one spell knock decades off? If so, how powerful is that spell? Certainly, it isn't something a human mage is casting very often or in quick succession!

That's a neat concept. Guess that solves the curious case of Benjamin Button.

My first thought on how to do this is somewhere abouts losing a week for each spell level cast. Cantrips don't bother much. Rituals cut down to half or function as cantrips.

Say, a max level Wizard goes ham in one day, all spell slots (not including class features or recovered spells). They would lose 89 weeks, or 1.7 years.

Doesn't seem too bad all in one go, but based on that you would still need a lot of downtime. Maybe it would work better as one 1st-level slot brings back 1 day. Still slow going, but perhaps reasonable.

[Mastikator]

Some thoughts

• What do you mean "exposure to magic"? Is casting a spell exposure to magic? Is being targeted by a spell exposure to magic? Because if it is then you run into some VERY harsh side effects. And if it's not, then you need to precisely define exactly what is and isn't exposure to magic. The players need to know exactly what it is and be able to make informed choices, be ready for them to say "no" to every quest that involves the risk of exposure to magic unless the reward is something well beyond their expected reward for their level.
• The charisma save makes charisma casters the best spell casters. However, they are still doomed.
• Making a save to resist becoming an NPC is extremely risky. Even a 1st level sorcerer casting their two 1st level spells has a 75% chance of becoming an NPC, a wizard* has an 88% chance, meaning most spell casters won't survive their first day of actually using their primary class feature. The only way a player can be a spell casting class and not turn into an NPC is to never cast spells, which makes them a liability to the party.
• It would seem to make resilient (charisma) mandatory, but actually all spell casters are doomed.
• How are spells from race features affected? Are they effectively dead features too?
• How are spell slots consumed by paladin smites affected? Are paladins the only ones who can spend their spell slots without turning into an NPC?
• What about magic items, does attuning to a magic item expose you to magic?

Ultimately I agree with @Tanarii, you need to redesign ever class and subclass that has magic of some kind, which is almost all of them. You also need to be very careful how you balance monster encounters, many rely on the party having access to magic items and spells, especially once you enter T2. However to have a chance to enter T2 at all the players will need to completely avoid all magic.

*assuming 16 int and 10 charisma

I think the concept might work but you need to reconsider the whole "single exposure to magic = more than 50% likely to turn into an NPC forever" because those odds will kill the party in less than a day. Every day:

• Casting a spell and attuning to a magic item counts as being exposed to magic. Nothing else does.
• Every time you are exposed to magic you roll a d20, if the d20 rolls on a number equal or lower than the spell level then you add 1 feral point. Cantrips roll with advantage and count as level 1. Magic items count as level 1 and only roll when attunement begins. Being targeted by a spell does not run the risk of becoming feral, only casting a spell.
• Each time you finish a long rest you can make a con save against 10 + 2x total feral points, if you succeed you lose 1 feral point. This means that low level of feralness can be shaken, but if you have lots of it, then it becomes hard to remove.
• When your feral points reach 10 you become an NPC.
• Each feral point makes you more visibly feral, all NPCs and PCs can tell just by looking how many feral points someone has. There are no mechanical downsides to having many feral points as long as you have less than 10.
• A region can also accumulate feral points, when a creature gains a feral point the region they're in also does. Regions drop 1 feral point per month. If a region reaches 10 it turns into a wild magic zone and stays like that for at least 100 years.
• Anyone in a wild magic zone rolls with disadvantage when they roll for feral. They also trigger wild magic surge when they gain a feral point.

[SharkForce]

as described, due to sheer volume of saving throws made I predict your players are going to be routinely writing up new characters as their old ones become NPCs if they have primary spellcasters in the party.

personally, I'd prefer those classes just not exist for players if you're going to give them drawbacks like gradually over time pretty much guaranteeing that they become NPCs.

I'm not saying don't have this rule in your world, to be clear... I'm saying that having wizards and sorcerers that rely heavily on casting powerful spells to make their contributions as PC classes feels like it isn't going to work. I would suggest designing new classes that rely less on routinely casting spells to accomplish things. after all, pretty much everyone agrees that gandalf the grey is definitely a wizard, but it isn't like he ran around using fireball or even fly or detect magic all the time.

alternately, here's another idea: birthright setting in 2e had it so that any human could be a magician (limited to level 1 and 2 spells of any school, then can only learn illusion and divination, and I think a few more weapon proficiencies) but only those with a bloodline could be full wizards... you could do something similar.

For example, suppose a cleric can use their domain spells (and only their domain spells) safely. each group of priests would essentially have their own secrets for preventing the risk that applies only to a handful of spells. this would work for paladins too.

warlocks have a similar built-in solution (especially if cantrips are allowed).

you'd have to come up with something new for other classes that don't have subclass-based spell lists if you're using this of course. maybe wizards have to prepare a special tool (carving a spell into their staff or whatever) to use magic safely.

of course, that's just one way you can do it... and even then I'd still want to give the primary spellcasters more ways to contribute without using their magic (not necessarily a *lot* more, mind you)

as a final "just throwing out ideas, use them if you want or ignore them if you don't", you could try having spells cast as a ritual be safer (not in the PHB sense where you don't use a slot, just like... if you are willing to spend 10 minutes casting the fly spell, any saving throws against becoming feral could be made with advantage or something)

[Tanarii]

Ever since reading a novel series where magic made the mage get older, I have been enamored of the idea of a system where it did the opposite. It would explain quite neatly the "unnaturally long-lived mage" trope, and comes with a cost and a natural recharge method (wait to get older again). It even sounds like a non-cost until you really think about it: use too much magic, and you're a kid again, or even a baby or...well, you could de-age to the point you're not able to survive without extensive care from others

Chronowild mage. Each spell you cast has a 50/50 chance of aging or de-aging you a number of time units equal to the spell level.

[Kane0]

Nice idea, I say go for it see if your players bite. The howling of the internet peanut gallery doesn't matter if the game at the table is working well.

I wouldn't tie the mechanic to any particular stat. That just makes some classes better than others. Just use proficiency, level or even a flat D20 roll (save on 11+ no matter what).

I don't think rituals should be exempt unless you go ham on the restrictions. A 10 minute cast time is a trivial challenge to overcome.

Final thought; This system of slow buildup with no penalty until the end inadvertently incentivises a player playing a magic user as normal, with no regard for the contamination and simply rolling a new character whenever the old one goes feral.
Or just retiring the old characters when the buildup gets bad.

Not likely to come up at a lot of tables, but worth considering so it doesn't blindside you.

Eheheheheh. To be fair though, so far it appears around 50/50.

Good points, maybe just make it a statless save like death saves are. Straight d20 vs the spell level or CR of the critter.

Well yeah but thats a problem of players making disposable PCs.

[Bane's Wolf]

This is a very cool idea

I really like the idea of Magic having a cost. It gives a reason for it to be used sparingly.
Your idea that it even corrupts those its used on intrigues me. Players will be hesitant to get healing or combat buffs from their own friends, unless there is a DIRE need.
The drama would be delicious


I would be very careful with this mechanic though. If magic is too dangerous, no-one would use it.

Running some quick testbed numbers:

When you cast a spell, Cha save against your Spell DC. Same thing if something (successfully) casts a spell on you. Which includes heals and buffs, so that'll be fun.
Anyways.
Fail the save, and you take on contamination equal to the spells level. You can handle half level (round down) + prof before you go feral.

So looking at some sample levels.
Level 2: 3
Level 6: 5
Level 12: 9
Level 16: 8 +
Level 20: 16

If you're a full caster, you start to actually feralize yourself at level 2 if you fail saves against all of your own spells
If you're a half caster, this starts at level 5 when you get a total of 8 spell levels compared to a capacity of 5
If you're a one-third caster, this starts at level 7, again when you get a total of 8 spell levels compared to a capacity of 6

And that's before failing saves vs others using magic on you.
So that's definitely punishing enough, but at least the majority of casters come with Charisma saves built in (Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers and Warlocks), plus there are plenty of ways to boost saves and this wouldn't be adding yet more emphasis on the Warcaster feat.

This seems VERY punishing to me.
A caster could go feral in one or two fights with a few unlucky rolls.

Correct my math if i'm misunderstanding, but a sorcerer rolling a CHA save (D20 + prof + CHA mod) against his own spell DC (8 + Prof + CHA mod) = 40% chance of failing?

A wizard without a high CHA would fail more than 50% of his saves?

How long do you want a spellcaster to be in the game before ferilization removes them?

Edit: i take too long to type, and others express my concerns better than i did

[Amechra]

What if you tied it to spell recovery instead, and made the save's difficulty was related to the number of spell slots you recovered?

[Clistenes]

It would probably make everybody upset: People who plays spellcasters would be upset because they can't use magic freely, you would have to balance it making magic more powerful so it's worth the risk, and that would upset people playing martials.

The only way I think it would work is by making everybody a rogue or martial, adding magic on top of that as a bonus.

[Bane's Wolf]

What if you tied it to spell recovery instead, and made the save's difficulty was related to the number of spell slots you recovered?

This is an interesting idea.
Perhaps recovering your spell slots after a long rest is an arduous process of dragging magical essence into your mind (or however we want to fluff it)
You can recover maybe your class level worth of spell slots without risk, but any more becomes dangerous and involves rolls to avoid getting feral points.

This would encourage mages to use their spells very carefully, and would make mages use their downtime to carefully and safely re-build their spell slots between adventures.

This might not be what Kane0 is looking for for their setting, considering it doesn't address how magic used on people also causes feral corruption, but i find the idea very cool.

[Kane0]

Mastikator raised a boatload of good thoughts, going to amend the OP to catch as many as I can.

[Mastikator]

Since races with innate spell casting no longer have innate spell casting, you may want to consider giving them something else. It may be as small as 1-2 new proficiencies. I'd say 1 cantrip is worth 1 skill, and a spell/long rest is worth 1 skill. It's not very flavorful but it gets the job done unless you can give heroic members of a race something more interesting and flavorful for their race.

Another option is to just not give them anything, bring the mundanes back into the forefront. The more I think about it the more I like that option actually.

[Kane0]

Since races with innate spell casting no longer have innate spell casting, you may want to consider giving them something else. It may be as small as 1-2 new proficiencies. I'd say 1 cantrip is worth 1 skill, and a spell/long rest is worth 1 skill. It's not very flavorful but it gets the job done unless you can give heroic members of a race something more interesting and flavorful for their race.

Another option is to just not give them anything, bring the mundanes back into the forefront. The more I think about it the more I like that option actually.

Yeah i'm basically making 9 new races specifically for the setting. You have your vanilla humans, your wee humans, extra-large humans, the dragon/lizard people, 'orcs', frog people, bird people, rat people and the cats n' dogs.

Plus potentially templates to apply for the planetouched (angelic, demonic, fey, four elements, maaaaybe shadow), essentially swapping out one or two racial features.

On the power scale they're all dialled back a touch from stock races because i'm throwing in that free level 1 feat and detaching ability score increases from the rest of the character creation process (basically +1 to three different stats of your choice, theoretically coinciding with race + class + background).

[Arkhios]

As has been pointed out before, high risk and no reward is going to drive a wedge between your game and players otherwise interested in playing a spellcaster.

I would consider offering some kind of reward in return for taking the risk. For example, with the proposed number between 3 and 10 (...actually, I'd say 4+, see below why), while you stay below that, you have a benefit for something related to spellcasting. For example, depending on the level of feralization, you get a bonus to spell attack rolls and save DC's (up to +3), but since the higher your bonus is, the higher is the risk of losing yourself to becoming feral.

[Mastikator]

An idea:

You could make a list of safe spells- at least every class spell list should have one. These spells are less feralicious and you roll charisma save with advantage. These should be healing/anti corruption spells, like cure wounds, lesser restoration, etc.
You may then also make a list of unsafe spells at least one for every class. These spells are more feralicious and you roll charisma save with disadvantage. These should be corrupting spells like hex, animate dead, inflict wounds, etc.
It's fine if most spells are in neither list, only especially pro/anti feral might be on the lists.

This would lend to the world building that some spell casters are nicer for society than others. Healers good, necromancers bad. (if that is the kind of world building you're going for).

Another idea:

Feral NPCs retain their spell casting, so you may have feral wizards who go around raising the dead, just for the lulz basically.

[Kane0]

Another idea:

Feral NPCs retain their spell casting, so you may have feral wizards who go around raising the dead, just for the lulz basically.

Yeah this part was absolutely the intention.

[Unoriginal]

One of the hard parts in adding risk to magic is that the risk has to be fun for the people around the table, but still a risk in-universe.

Maybe you could write a random table of effects that everyone must roll on when using a spell slot, with the effects ranging from weird but inconsequential to the "do a save or go feral" one.

Or the feral process could be gradual, with different effects for each stage, par and you only lose your character at the final stage (or midway through, before the really nasty mutations).