Best class for Gunner feat?

[Snig]

Hey guys, I'm trying to optimize a character who uses guns and I'm looking for ideas. I know artifices are the logical answer but I'm thinking about other options. Battlmaster or Rogue, or even the gunslinger subclass.

Some obvious synergy is bonus action careful aim from rogue, precision strike from battle masters + sharpshooter, possibly Lightfoot halfling + cunning action hide behind allies.

What other ideas or synergies do you guys have?

[Opsimos]

Sharpshooter is a strong option to counteract a pistol's decreased range and because of its solid damage increase against most ACs. You might want a solid Bonus Action option in exchange for missing out on the extra attack awarded by Crossbow Expert.

Apart from the Artificer or Rogue (dip), the Drakewarden Ranger comes to mind for its command of the Drake. The Drakewarden gets access to the Archery fighting style, goodberry for leftover slots, Absorb Elements, and Pass without Trace (easy surprise rounds for everyone) by level 5. As a small character you can ride the Drake from level 5 for the usual benefits of being mounted. I suppose Hunter's Mark has a little value until level 3, too.

If you ignore or circumvent the fluff of the druid's metal restriction, Wildfire 3 is a solid option for incredible mobility and damage from the spirit, as well as Goodberry, Absorb Elements, and Pass without Trace. You could add that to a Ranger or Fighter chassis.

[Chaos Jackal]

In practical terms, guns don't really play any different than crossbows, with the exception of Gunner not giving you CBE's bonus action attack. So what's good for one is good for the other, with the standouts staying more or less the same.

BM fighters with Sharpshooter and Precision Attack are thus quite good, especially if you give them a bonus action option like Quick Toss, a couple levels of rogue, goblin etc. Similarly, Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter Samurai builds work great and pack a good bonus action by default; here's a build for reference. And Kensei monks are also excellent with TCE's optional features, providing increased accuracy and plenty of bonus action synergy that includes extra damage, extra attacks and even defensive or mobility options.

[Gignere]

The best gunner in game is probably some kind of multiclass gunk / fighter. Gunk = monk using a gun.

As mentioned above the Kensai can make a good gunner. You multiclass fighter to get the archery fighting style. If you go deep enough to grab a subclass, battlemaster to grab precise shot, maybe a couple of other maneuvers to apply debuffs or some battle field control can be very excellent. Obviously gunner feat and sharpshooter is a must. So unless your DM starts a free feat you’re pretty much defaulting to vhuman or custom lineage.

Pure fighter makes a great gunner because you get so many feats early. So you can afford the gunner feat, sharpshooter by level 6. Also probably only way to build if you want elven accuracy as well by level 8.

Unfortunately rogues don’t make good gunners because they only ever get one attack and sharpshooter tends to be a net DPR decrease for them.

[RogueJK]

The best gunner in game is probably some kind of multiclass gunk / fighter. Gunk = monk using a gun.

Fighter 1/Kensei Monk X with Archery Fighting Style, Gunner, and Sharpshooter is a very solid build. (Though the Fighter dip for Archery style isn't totally necessary, especially if you're starting at lower levels and want to get you Monk stuff up and running ASAP.) The ability to spend Ki on Deft Strike or Focused Aim to trigger a third Bonus Action gun shot via Ki Fueled Attack is very nice. And even if you don't have Ki remaining, or don't want to spend it, you can add a little damage using your Bonus Action for free using Kensei Shot. By Level 11, between Archery Fighting Style and Sharpen the Blade, you can easily counteract the Sharpshooter attack penalty even without outside help from Bless/Advantage/etc.


Swarmkeeper Rangers also make great Gunners, with additional damage, a shove effect, or a free "Disengage" as needed. Works either as a single class build, or as a 3-5 level dip on a Fighter or Rogue, such as Swarmkeeper 3/Battlemaster or Samurai Fighter X, or a Swarmkeeper 5/Rogue X.

the Drakewarden Ranger comes to mind for its command of the Drake. The Drakewarden gets access to the Archery fighting style, goodberry for leftover slots, Absorb Elements, and Pass without Trace (easy surprise rounds for everyone) by level 5. As a small character you can ride the Drake from level 5 for the usual benefits of being mounted.

Similarly, Beastmaster Rangers can also make for interesting Gunners, if you're a small race. (Custom Lineage can be Small too, if you want to start at Level 1 with Gunner.) You can ride on your Medium-sized Beast of the Land, and while doing so it can make melee attacks against adjacent enemies while you make gun attacks without Disadvantage against either the same adjacent enemy or another enemy at range.

And either Beastmaster or Drakewarden gives you a "Bonus Action Attack" via your companion, to help make up for not having the XBE Hand Crossbow attack.

You'll just want to talk to your DM about how they're going to handle mounted combat. RAW, Beastmaster is the superior mounted option to Drakewarden. In order for the companion/mount to be able to attack, it has to be acting as an independent mount, which means it acts on its own initiative. Beastmaster's Primal Companion explicitely states that the Beast companion acts during your turn, whereas the Drakewarden's Drake companion acts after your turn. As a result, the Drakewarden doesn't always get all of the usual benefits of being mounted, because their mount can't move until after they've acted. (Battle Smith Artificer Steel Companions are the same, acting after your turn, not during it.)

You could treat your Drake as a controlled mount, in which case it works like the typical mount and moves during your turn, but then it loses its ability to attack. It'd basically just be a beefier but slower warhorse, with a useful Reaction.

[Opsimos]

[...] You could treat your Drake as a controlled mount, in which case it works like the typical mount and moves during your turn, but then it loses its ability to attack.

Good observation, I stand corrected.

[Greywander]

In practical terms, guns don't really play any different than crossbows, with the exception of Gunner not giving you CBE's bonus action attack. So what's good for one is good for the other, with the standouts staying more or less the same.

This. Guns have kind of the same issue as the lance. They're not really that different from other weapons aside from the slightly higher damage die. If you want to maximize that benefit, then you need to attack more times, which usually points to some kind of fighter build. The problem is that maximizing a gun or lance often ends up being not as good as other options. They're not bad, but leaning into them requires expending build resources that would be more effective elsewhere. For example, spending a feat to get Gunner when there are so many other great feats you could take instead. Gunner in particular is usually less effective than CE with a hand crossbow, unless you just can't spare a BA to attack. Most builds you'd want to use a lance with already have proficiency, so you can just pick up and use a lance any time you're mounted without spending any build resources, but only artificers get gun proficiency, and then only optionally. Everyone else has to burn a feat for it (a half feat, to be fair).

That said, if you don't care about minmaxing, then gun builds are still perfectly serviceable. Gunner, Sharpshooter, and Piercer are obvious feat picks to enhance your guns. A half orc Champion gets both the most attacks as well as the highest crit range and bonus crit damage, but crit fishing builds are notoriously bad. Monks make decent "cavalry" archers thanks to their high mobility, and that transfers to guns just fine. A rogue will be okay, but would really rather have the BA attack from CE to help them get their Sneak Attack off. A Battle Smith artificer can infuse the gun and never have to worry about ammo, and if you're using your BA to command your pet this might be better than CE. You also don't need a free hand to reload, so you can go pistol and shield. I'm sure there are more builds as well.

[RogueJK]

Gunner in particular is usually less effective than CE with a hand crossbow, unless you just can't spare a BA to attack.
...
A Battle Smith artificer can infuse the gun and never have to worry about ammo, and if you're using your BA to command your pet this might be better than CE.

Which is why Gunner dovetails well with stuff like the Drakewarden or TCOE Beastmaster Ranger. Unlike a Battle Smith Artificer, you have native access to the Archery fighting style, and like the Battle Smith you already have a reliable "Bonus Action Attack" built into your subclass via your companion.

[Chaos Jackal]

Gotta point out that two of the approaches I mentioned, those being Samurai and Kensei builds, are arguably better off with guns than with crossbows (or longbows) as well.

The Elven Accuracy Samurai is obviously at its strongest when using Fighting Spirit, which takes up the bonus action, and a musket has a higher damage die than a heavy crossbow (and even more so than a hand one) while Gunner being a half-feat partly (or wholly, depending on stats rolled/assigned) covers up for not being a variant human/custom lineage character with a feat-intensive build. And of course, it also has Archery built-in.

The Kensei, on the other hand, has a plethora of bonus action options through both its class and subclass (Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Ki-Fueled Attack, Kensei's Shot and arguably Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, though of course the last two won't be seeing as much use), one of which (Ki-Fueled Attack) already allows for an additional attack, and while the monk doesn't get Archery by default, it does have Focused Aim, the Kensei at later levels gets Sharpen the Blade and a fighter dip isn't half bad on a gunk, so you won't be lacking in attack bonuses and might even be ahead. And again, Gunner being a half-feat is a perk for a feat-intensive build and while a gunk is less likely to be an elf since Elven Accuracy isn't an essential component, thus allowing for variant human/custom lineage, they get one less ASI than the fighter, so the benefit's still the same.

On a Battle Master build, sure, you are probably better off with a hand crossbow, but a Samurai or a Kensei do in fact benefit from picking up a gun.

[Gignere]

Gotta point out that two of the approaches I mentioned, those being Samurai and Kensei builds, are arguably better off with guns than with crossbows (or longbows) as well.

The Elven Accuracy Samurai is obviously at its strongest when using Fighting Spirit, which takes up the bonus action, and a musket has a higher damage die than a heavy crossbow (and even more so than a hand one) while Gunner being a half-feat partly (or wholly, depending on stats rolled/assigned) covers up for not being a variant human/custom lineage character with a feat-intensive build. And of course, it also has Archery built-in.

The Kensei, on the other hand, has a plethora of bonus action options through both its class and subclass (Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Ki-Fueled Attack, Kensei's Shot and arguably Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, though of course the last two won't be seeing as much use), one of which (Ki-Fueled Attack) already allows for an additional attack, and while the monk doesn't get Archery by default, it does have Focused Aim, the Kensei at later levels gets Sharpen the Blade and a fighter dip isn't half bad on a gunk, so you won't be lacking in attack bonuses and might even be ahead. And again, Gunner being a half-feat is a perk for a feat-intensive build and while a gunk is less likely to be an elf since Elven Accuracy isn't an essential component, thus allowing for variant human/custom lineage, they get one less ASI than the fighter, so the benefit's still the same.

On a Battle Master build, sure, you are probably better off with a hand crossbow, but a Samurai or a Kensei do in fact benefit from picking up a gun.

Not really with quick toss, second wind, BM fighters have plenty of BA options. Given the damage difference between hand crossbows and a musket / pistol if you want the shield benefit. It’s not even clear that the hand crossbow BA attack will do that much more damage, while the range of the guns are much better. Especially once the fighter gets 3 or more attack. The damage difference is negligible.

[Chaos Jackal]

Not really with quick toss, second wind, BM fighters have plenty of BA options. Given the damage difference between hand crossbows and a musket / pistol if you want the shield benefit. It’s not even clear that the hand crossbow BA attack will do that much more damage, while the range of the guns are much better. Especially once the fighter gets 3 or more attack. The damage difference is negligible.

Eh, Quick Toss eats into your superiority dice and hence Precision Attack, which is possibly the biggest thing Battle Master is bringing to the table in regards to high-damage ranged builds (because Sharpshooter) and Second Wind is an once per short rest ability that will only be used in very specific situations, so I wouldn't really call it a readily available, turn-by-turn option.

I didn't run the calcs, hence the "probably" in my post, but the biggest appeal of the bonus action attack is the extra use of Sharpshooter, in which context the higher damage of the pistol/musket can easily be nullified and even surpassed. Precision Attack makes the exact numbers difficult, but I'd say at best it's a wash and at worst the hand crossbow is favored. More attacks definitely make this closer, but overall, the hand crossbow has a slight edge I believe, at least in turns without Action Surge or before lv17.

Guns don't have better range, by the way (unless you're referring to something else), at least not Renaissance guns. The pistol's long range is 30ft worse than the hand crossbow's while the musket's tied, and with Sharpshooter that's the range we care about. Not that the short range does much better, pistols have the same short range as hand crossbows and muskets only beat them by 10ft. Modern firearms are a different story, but at that stage the main discussion about the damage has already been rendered moot, as those are substantially stronger.

The Battle Master's numbers are certainly quite close regardless between firearms and crossbows (modern firearms not included); whichever has the advantage, it's rather negligible. Whilst, for Samurai and Kensei, I'd say that guns come quite clearly ahead.

[Witty Username]

Beastmaster Ranger using the Tasha's beasts works well with gunner, as they need to keep the bonus action free for controling the beast.
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I have misgivings, but I have heard good things about gun monk, I think kensei is not great on that though, shadow monk has its primary weakness (monk damage) covered by gunner, and has cool ninja stuff to do on top of that.
I still have misgivings, ki focused aim I feel is over valued, and fighter and ranger have boons that monk doesn't get. It looks fun though.

[diplomancer]

One other advantage of the Kensei, though campaign-dependent, is the auto-magical weapon at level 6. I think you have to have a very accommodating DM to get a magical firearm if your party can't provide it otherwise.

So, 3 attacks/round, with Sharpshooter, and adjusted accuracy as needed, is not bad at all; you really need the Tasha's monk upgrades to really make it work, though.

[Greywander]

One other advantage of the Kensei, though campaign-dependent, is the auto-magical weapon at level 6. I think you have to have a very accommodating DM to get a magical firearm if your party can't provide it otherwise.

If this is a concern, artificers can do this as early as 2nd level by infusing the gun. If you need to dip to get this, two levels is more manageable than six. Or you could just ask your DM nicely for a magical firearm. If the DM knows your character is built around using guns and they're throwing enemies with non-magical resistance or immunity at you, they should at least let you investigate and look for a magical firearm. They don't have to make it easy to get, but they should exist somewhere in the world and you just need to find them.

[RogueJK]

I still have misgivings, ki focused aim I feel is over valued

It's not really about the bonus to hit. Instead, look at Focused Aim as: If one of your primary gun Attacks miss, you can spend 1 Ki to make an additional Bonus Action gun attack (via Ki-Fueled Attack).

It's a means to spend 1 Ki to trigger a third Bonus Action attack, not necessarily a good way to turn a miss into a hit.

Same thing with Deft Strike. It's about spending 1 Ki to trigger the third Bonus Action attack more than being about the extra Martial Arts dice damage.


So the Kensei Gunk's attack routine decision tree looks like this:

If you hit with your first Attack, you spend 1 Ki on Deft Strike for added Martial Arts damage, then make your Extra Attack plus a Bonus Action attack.

If you miss with your first Attack, make your Extra Attack. If that Extra Attack hits, you spend 1 Ki on Deft Strike for added damage, then make a third Bonus Action attack. If that Extra Attack also misses, you spend 1 Ki on Focused Aim (regardless of whether that +2 bonus is enough to turn the miss into a hit), and then make a third Bonus Action attack.

And on turns when you don't want to spend Ki, or have no Ki remaining, you use Bonus Action Kensei Shot at the start of your turn for free, and then make your normal two Attacks, potentially gaining +1d4 damage to each hit that turn. Not as good as a third attack, but it costs zero Ki.


Thus the Kensei Gunk always has a reliable use for its Bonus Action, despite not being in melee range for Martial Arts/Flurry like most Monks spend their BAs on. And as long as you have Ki Points available, you always have a means to turn 1 Ki into a Bonus Action gun attack, regardless of whether your normal Attack Action gun attacks hit or miss.

[Witty Username]

Or you could be a beastmaster ranger and just have a 3rd attack.
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This is what I mean by overvalued, focused aim into fueled attack is neat, but it is still alot of resources and both the attack and the +hit feel overhyped. It can sometimes turn misses into hits, and a bonus action attack for resources. But if we are talking something like fighter w/ archery style, it doesn't have nearly the same street cred.

Its neat, but it doesn't feel as groundbreaking as people seem to think it is.

[Chaos Jackal]

Or you could be a beastmaster ranger and just have a 3rd attack.
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This is what I mean by overvalued, focused aim into fueled attack is neat, but it is still alot of resources and both the attack and the +hit feel overhyped. It can sometimes turn misses into hits, and a bonus action attack for resources. But if we are talking something like fighter w/ archery style, it doesn't have nearly the same street cred.

Its neat, but it doesn't feel as groundbreaking as people seem to think it is.

It's the one option that allows you to actually use your gun for that bonus action attack. Sure, it costs some resources to do so, but you're also getting more out of it.

A Beast Master's third attack is resourceless, but also weaker, melee and can't add Sharpshooter. You're not getting a necessarily better deal. Both have their perks.

[RogueJK]

Yep. The Beastmaster/Drakewarden/Battlesmith companion's BA attack can't add Sharpshooter damage, has to be in melee for their attack, and can't benefit from attack-boosting stuff like a magic gun or Archery fighting style.

Whereas the Gunk's BA gun attack is at range and can benefit from Sharpshooter as well as stuff like a magic weapon, Archery Fighting Style (from feat or dip), and Sharpen the Blade.

Basically, the Gunk is an alternative to the BM/DW/BS gunner with an always-on non-gun BA attack that doesn't benefit from any gun-related bonuses, or a Hand Crossbow user with an always-on BA ranged attack that benefits from the crossbow-related bonuses but has a third of the damage dice and half the range (plus that means abandoning the gun theme, and XBE isn't a DEX half-feat either).

Not necessarily strictly better than either of those alternatives, but it's better than either in certain ways and in certain circumstances. And is arguably the most effective "ranged Monk" build available, not to mention being one of the most effective overall Monk builds.


Keep in mind your Gunk also gets all of the usual Monk stuff, like increased speed, unarmored defense, Martial Arts, Slow Fall, Step of the Wind, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul, etc. Almost every Monk level comes with something good. So you're highly mobile, with an always-available unarmed strike melee option for stuff like adjacent enemy OAs or timely Stuns, even when your hands are full with a Musket.

Plus, it's a cool aesthetic. You're not just a highly effective gunner, you're also an expert hand-to-hand combatant, and you can run as fast as the wind, leap off tall buildings, deflect return fire, and dodge AoEs. All with just a gun and the clothes on your back.

Kinda like John Wick, Black Widow, or a Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium.

[Witty Username]

A Beast Master's third attack is resourceless, but also weaker, melee and can't add Sharpshooter. You're not getting a necessarily better deal. Both have their perks.

Yeah this, Monk is fun and has cool stuff. A bit of competition between abilities for ki, but fun.
If you want to play a monk build because it looks fun, do that. If you want to play a monk build because it is the best option, there is stuff worth looking into.

Fighter, monk and ranger do good work here.

Monk, since we have dedicated weapon, and will be taking gunner, kensei feels superfluous to me, this isnt to say it is bad, more that it opens up other subclasses. I have heard shadow monk recommended, and it has a good chuck of stealth/utility options, and while it is losing on damage to kensei that isn't going to be alot in comparison to what the class can add to a party composition.

Fighter, doesn't have alot of bonus action use, so it has an issue with XBE outcompeting, but this does mean we can take options to fill our bonus action for less opportunity cost. Samurai is a good option, fighting spirit + action surge is a scary turn. Also a dip to rogue 2 for cunning action can get some utility that would be a damage hit on other builds. The primary draw of fighter is level 11, 3 attacks, + 3 more on a surge turn.
- Battlemaster 5, rogue 2 with the intention of going Battlemaster the rest of the way, or at least to 11
- Samurai to 11, then whatever else you like

Ranger, depending on what your doing you have a spoken for bonus action. Tasha's beastmaster, moster slayer, horizon walker, or plans to use hunter's mark all fit into this. Gloomstalker is more free, but again pairs nicely with rogue (especially assassin).
I would say beastmaster is probably the best ranger for a gunner build personally, as the beast is putting in work, and gets a second attack at level 11.

Since rogue has been brought up a couple times, I wouldn't recommend it outside of a multiclass, as they have a 1 attack expectation. Gunner just doesn't provide much over just using a light or heavy crossbow. Your better off trying to find other means for firearms proficiency and calling it there.

[strangebloke]

Honestly gunner is just a really good feat and it synergizes with any class that has lots of attacks, particularly if they're accurate.

With that said the best is probably Monk just because monk gets 3 attacks pretty consistently, can boost accuracy and conventionally doesn't have great ranged attack options.

But something like a gloomstalker/fighter is probably going to be more powerful overall.

[Witty Username]

It does say something about gunner that it is in the same realm as XBE.
There are probably alot of characters that could be effective with it.

[Sherlockpwns]

Here’s a weird one:

Swords Bard.

Yeah sure the fighting style won’t be used much, but the ability to use a musket/rifle as a casting focus creates a pretty compelling character design.

All the inspiration options are handy for you, and among the various very useful spells, at 10 you could snag swift quiver (unless your dm is so anal that guns don’t use quivers.) At 14 you’d eventually be able to bonus action shoot with spell actions.

While I am not saying it is a min-max of a gunner, I think it’s a rather compelling combat RP character which will be versatile and solid at any difficulty level.

[RogueJK]

Yeah sure the fighting style won’t be used much, but the ability to use a musket/rifle as a casting focus creates a pretty compelling character design.

Swords Bards can only use melee weapons as a spell focus.

And a PC armed with a musket/rifle already has a free hand for casting whenever they need it. Same as any other 2H weapon.

But yes, Swords Bards do make decent ranged characters. As noted, you don't get as much use out of the Dueling/TWF fighting style, though it still might occasionally come into play. And Bards aren't natively proficient with Longbows or Firearms, so if you want the best ranged weapon options you'd have to grab that proficiency from a feat, multiclass dip, or racial bonus. Plus you can't use your Slashing Flourish specifically against anyone further than 5' away. However, all the rest of the Swords Bard chassis works fairly well as a Bardcher (or Bargunner?).

The main downside to a Bardcher/Bargunner build is that you end up pretty ASI-starved. You need DEX for your ranged attacks, CHA for your spellcasting and BI dice, and at least 1 and quite possibly 2 feats (Sharpshooter and Gunner).

You can cheese that a bit by dipping Hexblade 1, leaving DEX at 14, wearing Medium Armor, and using a Pistol, thus eliminating the need to raise DEX. Something like this:
Variant Human Hexblade 1/Swords Bard X
STR 8
DEX 13
CON 15+1
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Gunner (14 DEX) at 1, Sharpshooter at Bard 4, 18 CHA at Bard 8, 20 CHA at Bard 12.

With a breastplate, flintlock pistol, and rapier, it makes for a nifty "Three Musketeers" or "Conquistador" style of Renaissance-themed switch-hitting swashbuckler.

At 14 you’d eventually be able to bonus action shoot with spell actions.

That's Valor Bard, not Swords Bard.

Even despite not getting that ability, Swords Bard makes the better ranged Bard overall.