Is it just my impression or is this forum a little slow?

[Rukelnikov]

I noticed today that the threads in the bottom of the first page have a last post of almost 10 days ago. Was it always like this? I feel like there used to be more movement in the past.

[Ortho]

No, I've noticed it too. I think it's a combination of factors:

1. the poor quality of recent 5e releases
2. the whole OGL snafu
3. OneD&D being impressively underwhelming

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

1. 5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
2. The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members

[J-H]

There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

[animorte]

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.

I've only been active on the forum for about a year, so I assumed this was me just being more active with everything in general, that I started noticing.

I suppose a combination of OGL and One have been a bit discouraging, and I understand the results.

I've also been branching out more, so while I still participate often, I've found that I'm a bit less interested in the mechanical debates. While I still love and play D&D (5e and 3.5e), there's a lot of other stuff out there worth seeing. If it's a little simpler, I appreciate the opportunity, whether I stick with it or not.

[Samayu]

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

1. 5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
2. The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members

I don't think it's the latter. Posting has definitely decreased since that time, even in just the last year.

[Willowhelm]

I have had to take multiple extended breaks from the forum because it induces strong negative feelings regularly. I would not be surprised if others just don’t come back.

Every thread derails as soon as someone makes a minor error or assumption and triggers one of the regular loud voices to get on their soap box and start a pointlessly long back and forth about their personal pet peeves and petty grievances. At that point the thread circles the drain until it reaches the inevitable conclusions that it always does.

It is simply a bad medium for discussion and the personalities that are still here and posting regularly drive others away.

There are also some uniquely giantitp factors which hamper open discussions and contribute to the same threads occurring over and over.

[Unoriginal]

There was a time where people made threads to speculate about upcoming books, months before said books were even announced officially.

There was a time where examining UAs was a regular occurrence.

There was a time where this subforum was livelier, faster, happier.

It's over and gone, now.

[Amechra]

It is simply a bad medium for discussion and the personalities that are still here and posting regularly drive others away.

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I still read and respond to their posts because I'm weak and can't help myself (I sometimes read the forums on my phone, where I'm not logged in and I can see everything), but I acknowledge that that's probably not healthy behavior.

(inb4 I'm one of the toxic people that chases people away from the subforum...)

[Psyren]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

[Unoriginal]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

I'm hoping it comes with One D&D getting is own subforum.

[No brains]

I'm surprised so many other people are experiencing the troubles that I have noticed. It's good to not feel so invisible and alone.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No, I've noticed it too. I think it's a combination of factors:

1. the poor quality of recent 5e releases
2. the whole OGL snafu
3. OneD&D being impressively underwhelming

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

1. 5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
2. The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members

I'll agree with your point 1 and 3. They're kind of related for me. The crap that has been released lately has me firmly convinced I don't have any interest in One D&D. Most of the topics I see have been discussed in one form or other.

[animewatcha]

OGL debacle already mentioned.

Part of it can be the wait for the arcane and martial releases of Playtests. And how WOTC will screw these up alongside coming up with few beneficial things. WOTC wants to keep same deadline for D&Done despite possible need for more playtest releases.

[Zuras]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

There hasn’t been much besides the 1DD playtest to speculate on, and with the OGL issues many people may have been looking into other systems—I know I have.

Beyond the pace and quality of new releases, it’s also hard to get as invested in 5e when you know the whole applecart will be overturned soon.

[Psyren]

I'm hoping it comes with One D&D getting is own subforum.

That's possible, though given that neither 3.5e nor PF2 did it doesn't seem likely.

There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

This is part of why I'm interested in 1DnD, some of the more fundamental system changes like moving TWF out of the bonus action and killing Variant Human/Custom Lineage dead will have build implications even for a lot of tables that otherwise stick with 5e material.

There's also the (albeit slim) chance that Black Flag will have enough interesting design and buzz to borrow for 5e/1DnD games.

[animewatcha]

When it comes to 5e, other than WOTC ( and it's offhshoots like Crit role), who are major third party publishers that do 5e content?

[Xihirli]

When it comes to 5e, other than WOTC ( and its offhshoots like Crit role), who are major third party publishers that do 5e content?

Kobold Press is a big one. Calling Critical Role and offshoot of WOTC is an... interesting definition, but those are the big ones really. Fourth place is way way way behind.

[Kane0]

I keep TastyKibbles and LaserLlama on my radar, plus our home-grown Grod has done two 'everything' style books.

[Waazraath]

There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

For me this is part, as well as the quality of recent releases and 1dnd not being interesting enough to follow and discuss.

I guess 1dnd deserves it's own subforum as soon as it's released, it being a new edition and all that, but at the same time changes so far seem marginal enough to personally consider it a 5.5.

[Kane0]

At present it appears more like a .5 than new edition, so i guess it'll be put here much like 3.5 was put in with 3.0 subforum?

I dont really mind if it does, there'll be plenty of talk going back and forth between them for a while if nothing else.

[Goobahfish]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

With the release of OneD&D no sensible content creator of any size will be touching 5e with anything new. Everything will devolve into speculation on the new edition (which have been... robust). This is intermittent at best and so 'inoffensive' in the main that there is nothing to say. It's not like 3e had much of a life once 3.5 came out. If 6e was more controversial (i.e., 4th) there would probably be more to dig up and it would give the 5e grognards (again tongue-in-cheek) greater confidence to keep going their own way. With 5.1 being basically 5e... I can't imagine that much of a dedicated '5e crowd' will remain. TBH, I think this subforum is probably doomed to die. But it will be a slow... faltering death.

[Waazraath]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

With the release of OneD&D no sensible content creator of any size will be touching 5e with anything new. Everything will devolve into speculation on the new edition (which have been... robust). This is intermittent at best and so 'inoffensive' in the main that there is nothing to say. It's not like 3e had much of a life once 3.5 came out. If 6e was more controversial (i.e., 4th) there would probably be more to dig up and it would give the 5e grognards (again tongue-in-cheek) greater confidence to keep going their own way. With 5.1 being basically 5e... I can't imagine that much of a dedicated '5e crowd' will remain. TBH, I think this subforum is probably doomed to die. But it will be a slow... faltering death.

Geee thanks for this bright and optimistic note to start my day with!

[Witty Username]

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I still read and respond to their posts because I'm weak and can't help myself (I sometimes read the forums on my phone, where I'm not logged in and I can see everything), but I acknowledge that that's probably not healthy behavior.

(inb4 I'm one of the toxic people that chases people away from the subforum...)

Stuff like this leads to me taking days off from the forum, either because of others or my concerns about getting too worked up in conversation and being part of the problem.

Which is weird in all honesty, I feel like alot of the time arguments here alot of the time are between people that are in 90% agreement but the 10% is the hill people have chosen to die on.

But either way, low activity is probably more healthier than high activity. Generally if a thread is like 20 pages deep its a red flag, at least lately.

[Chaos Jackal]

People have more or less named the primary factors, so I'll just expand a bit upon some of them.

Simply put, 5e isn't 3.5.

The quality of recent content is definitely at least questionable and on top of that, while the pace of releases has actually sped up over the years, it's not enough to cover the completely glacial one of the early days. Over eight and a half years, there's less content than there was in two years of 3.5 and while you could make an argument for bloat and a ton of useless crap being in 3.5's book releases, it also doesn't change the fact that even said crap stirred people to speculate and create; Iron Chef, a contest where you're given a terrible prestige class and asked to make the most out of it, is still running in GitP after 13 years, because there's just so much to experiment with before you even get to the actually good stuff. 5e not only has significantly less content, it's also significantly stricter in what it allows. Whatever its effect might be on the balance or entry level of the game, there's no doubt that its effect on discussions is stifling. 5e can be "solved" a lot quicker from an optimization standpoint, as mentioned in another post, and even from a non-optimization one, there are only so many ideas; I can't remember the last time I saw someone ask a question or propose an idea in a thread topic and not think "haven't I seen that question/idea 5 times over the last couple years?" There's just not enough in this game to drive a high number of discussions for a decade.

And then you have things about forums in general and GitP in particular.

Forum culture has declined, let's not forget that. Sure, it's not dead, but these are the years of Reddit; hell, we're probably almost past those years too. The years where the largest communities for any given thing were found in dedicated forums are long gone. Forums were already past their heyday in 2014 and it's been nine years since then. People move on and ever-fewer ones are added in. And well... Like it or not, optimization discussions have always been a very big contributor in forum talk and on top of the aforementioned issues about 5e not lending itself too well to such talk, especially by now, there's the added problem of the 5e community in general being indifferent or even averse to it.

And this combines with GitP's quirks to create a miserable experience.

The Playground might be seemingly cleaner on the surface with its behavior rules, but at times that has contributed to a very toxic environment in certain topics, the aforementioned optimization ones very much included, that cannot be fought off. People are hijacking and derailing threads while holding an extremely contemptuous and passive-aggressive attitude, an attitude that is actually far worse than that of those resorting in a ton of f-bombs and direct callouts. Because you cannot do something about it. You cannot call them out because personally attacking someone is not allowed, but at the same time sweeping, derogatory statements and arguing in bad faith are not acted upon as long as they do not name specific people or use offensive language. The whole thing devolves into glancing blows and indirectly attempting to trip up others, incredibly frustrating if you just want to have a proper coversation without worrying about someone rudely interrupting. It looks healthier than an attack punctuated with some choice insults and directed at specific people, but in a number of cases, it arguably isn't. So those that get tired of every thread they might have an interest in getting derailed into oblivion eventually bother less and less while those thriving in this passive-aggressive environment carry on and drive even more people off, aided by the fact that there are progressively fewer sticking around to argue (pointlessly) with them. It's a vicious cycle. Amechra mentioned having a large ignore list upthread; for all I know, I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.

[Kane0]

I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.

I havent seen him in ages either come to think of it.

[Ortho]

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I've only ever put one person on my ignore list and even then only because they were being inexcusably rude, but...yeah, if it's this widespread I'm inclined to think it's a systemic issue rather than those specific individuals.

But either way, low activity is probably more healthier than high activity. Generally if a thread is like 20 pages deep its a red flag, at least lately.

Tell me about it. I've been too scared to open up the OneD&D Druid and Paladin thread because I know exactly what I'll find.

[Aimeryan]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

Given how they seem to be simplifying things even further than 5e, I call OneD&D in my head Baby's First D&D. In the forums I regularly go for D&Done because to me it is getting to the point I might be done with D&D.

[Mastikator]

I've only ever put one person on my ignore list and even then only because they were being inexcusably rude, but...yeah, if it's this widespread I'm inclined to think it's a systemic issue rather than those specific individuals.

I concur with the system issue theory, given that different platforms can have widely different levels of toxicity. I mean this forum is definitely less toxic than 4chan or twitter, but those are really low bars. Even as a semi-former "one of those" specific individuals I think the problem isn't uh.. us.

Edit-

And this combines with GitP's quirks to create a miserable experience.

The Playground might be seemingly cleaner on the surface with its behavior rules, but at times that has contributed to a very toxic environment in certain topics, the aforementioned optimization ones very much included, that cannot be fought off. People are hijacking and derailing threads while holding an extremely contemptuous and passive-aggressive attitude, an attitude that is actually far worse than that of those resorting in a ton of f-bombs and direct callouts. Because you cannot do something about it. You cannot call them out because personally attacking someone is not allowed, but at the same time sweeping, derogatory statements and arguing in bad faith are not acted upon as long as they do not name specific people or use offensive language. The whole thing devolves into glancing blows and indirectly attempting to trip up others, incredibly frustrating if you just want to have a proper coversation without worrying about someone rudely interrupting. It looks healthier than an attack punctuated with some choice insults and directed at specific people, but in a number of cases, it arguably isn't. So those that get tired of every thread they might have an interest in getting derailed into oblivion eventually bother less and less while those thriving in this passive-aggressive environment carry on and drive even more people off, aided by the fact that there are progressively fewer sticking around to argue (pointlessly) with them. It's a vicious cycle. Amechra mentioned having a large ignore list upthread; for all I know, I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.

You know for the longest time I've had this nagging feeling that some the rules of this forum is completely backwards and directly empower bad faith behavior. I was worried "is it just me?", but seeing someone else basically hit the nail perfectly gives a bit of relief. So thank you for that

[Goobahfish]

Geee thanks for this bright and optimistic note to start my day with!

Well, on the bright side a lot of traffic will migrate to whatever 1D&D becomes and if the mods make the (probably sensible) to merge the forums as suggested above, it will keep going. Hopefully in that form for as long as possible.

That said, I 100% agree with Chaos Jackal. I'd even go further (perhaps controversially so). 3.5 and a forum like this works kind of because 3.5 is badly designed? That is to say, the kinds of conversations which occur regularly here are due to the flaw in the system which creates this kind of fun space where you are trying to work out how to do something that A) fulfils an obvious fantasy trope but doesn't work with the base classes or B) combines two or more weird mechanics into something cute and potentially OP. It is a fun game to play but not exactly D&D?

Given that there seems to be a shift towards slightly more bland things (a good example is Wildshape or the new merged spell lists) the potential in these 'streamlined' games for 'theorycrafting' is quite diminished which is good and bad (good for 'baby D&D' - thankyou Aimeryan) but bad for old-school crunchy D&D stuff.

[Chaos Jackal]

I havent seen him in ages either come to think of it.

Maybe they got burnt out too, who knows?

That said, I 100% agree with Chaos Jackal. I'd even go further (perhaps controversially so). 3.5 and a forum like this works kind of because 3.5 is badly designed? That is to say, the kinds of conversations which occur regularly here are due to the flaw in the system which creates this kind of fun space where you are trying to work out how to do something that A) fulfils an obvious fantasy trope but doesn't work with the base classes or B) combines two or more weird mechanics into something cute and potentially OP. It is a fun game to play but not exactly D&D?

It's less about being badly designed (though of course it's a flawed system) and more about the things, in general, that it allows you to do combined with a massive library. As someone (I forget who) once put it in the 3.5 subforum here, 3.5 has appeal because it allows you to optimize into godhood, but it has even more appeal because it allows you to optimize seemingly non-functional things into relevance.

If you have an idea for a character, odds are that a class or prestige class covers it. If said class or prestige class isn't good, you can still make something out of it the majority of the time. I mean, we're talking about a system where PCs and NPCs play by the same rules. You wanna do X, the way Y does it? Well, there are ways to gain access to it. And the options are so many, their combinations are so numerous, that even after twenty years you still have the chance of seeing something you haven't seen before.

Whereas 5e? Not only are the pieces much fewer, the system itself prevents you from fitting them in whatever way you want. You can still make things, of course, but it's not the seemingly endless stream of ideas that 3.5 was. And as you correctly put it, it seems like it'll become worse with One D&D apparently headed in a direction of even more limited and simple design. You just can't have as long-lasting interest in discussions and as many or unique ideas with such a system.