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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Hexadin combat styles

    Got back to working on the hexadin character I posted about a few weeks ago. Pal5/Hex3. Pact of the blade of course. (I'm thinking of doing this like a Pelor the Burning Hate worshiper. The local library game is mostly new so they don't know about that theory.)

    Of all the issues to think about in making this character, I didn't think of the paladin combat styles. I can see reasons for each of them being useful, particularly these ones.
    • Blessed warrior would give additional options via cantrips.
    • Defense. Makes me harder to kill. Though my current abjurer build already does that, so maybe not.
    • Great weapon fighting. Once I hit this, I start focusing on getting rerolls for my rerolls.
    • Interception and Protection would both provide the ability to aid allies at the cost of my reaction. In a game taht has a lot of single big monsters, Protection would probably be better, with lot of small monsters, Interception.


    So, which one have the rest of you had the most fun with? Not just mechanically the most powerful, but the most fun?

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Blessed Warrior - This is what I took on my Glory Paladin. Guidance is amazing, and I've been enjoying calling on different parts of the Norse pantheon for different situations. It's not great if you're planning on taking Hex and trying to have it last multiple fights, since casting Guidance will drop your Hex. If you don't have Darkvision and aren't taking Devil's Sight, Warlock can't actually get you a good light generating cantrip so that might be worth picking up. The damage options are largely superfluous with what Warlock gets you.

    Defense - Great all around, if unexciting. Works while Eldritch Blasting, if you decide to get defensive with a Shield, etc.

    Great Weapon Fighting- I'm not impressed, even on a character that isn't casting Eldritch Blast a decent amount of the time. But if you want to increase your damage swinging a big weapon around, this is your choice. It can be exciting when you turn a 1 into a high roll, which is nice even if it averages out to be a more modest benefit.

    Protection/Interception - I've seen convincing math that made me think that you should basically never take Protection over Interception. You have to decide to use it before they hit and it does nothing if they would have missed anyways, so it doesn't actually help as much as you'd think. Interception has a lower ceiling but always works. Consider how likely you will be standing next to someone and what your other reaction abilities are - you've got access to Shield, so using either of these is a big opportunity cost.

    Of course, consider your character's personality. Are they the kind of person that values protecting others? Protecting themselves? Do they focus on offense? Do you see their paladin training focusing on the more mystical aspects of it than a normal paladin?

    I went with Blessed Warrior because my Paladin was a member of a religious order and he's proficient in religion, it made sense to me that he'd have a more mystical bent. It also gives me a reliable light source that doesn't need hands and helps out with our frequent skill based challenges. He specializes in one on one duels, so Interception and Protection didn't make sense. He's got a magic 1h weapon from his order, so GWF didn't make sense even though he usually uses a Greatsword. Thinking about it this way is very helpful to me, personally.
    Last edited by solidork; 2023-03-29 at 01:17 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

    Part of Burning Hate is Jozen the 3.x cleric literally climbing over friends/allies to reach a goal, so defending them is probably not in the cards.

    Blessed would probably give me the most flexibility towards those goals. Particularly since Jozen could cast spells you wouldn't expect him to. I'll probably skip GWF because honestly I'll get sucked into finding rerolling for my rerolls.

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Defence is a passive you don't need to think about and will always be helpful

    Great Weapon can be ditched, it's barely a point of extra damage on average

    Interception is generally better than protection unless your DM lets you use it after you see the attack, but if that's not your character's MO then i'd go with blessed warrior or defence.

    Unless you can get your DM to agree to blind fighting maybe?
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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    I'm running Blessed Warrior on my own paladin personally, and over 10 levels I haven't regretted it once. The mileage I've gotten out of guidance is insane, and I've used the second one to cover bases, starting with toll the dead to have a ranged option, then switching over to word of radiance to have an aoe option once I got a somewhat reliable ranged ability as a blessing in-game, and eventually settled on thaumaturgy for some fun out of combat tricks. Overall, the style's been very solid.

    Defense I find decent, an extra point of AC is never bad and I've used it in the past for fighters in oneshots, but it's not a must-have by any means, so you're not left the worse for not wanting to pick that one.

    Protection is... not great. For one, it locks you into using a shield, which is fine if that was your plan from the get-go, but can be rough on your (non-smite) damage if that's what you're building for. Also, you can only use it before the attack is made, so there's a significant chance it won't do anything - not only might the target succeed regardless of disadvantage, they can also fail regardless of disadvantage and in both cases you've just wasted your reaction. So even if you're keen on using a shield, I'd advise against Protection. Go with Dueling if you're sword and board.

    Interception, on the other hand, while not amazing or anything, is an alright style. It won't completely block an attack most of the time, but it will always have an effect so at least it makes for an efficient reaction and unlike Protection you don't have to use a shield. The damage reduction is still rather underwhelming, however and you share a range limitation with Protection, so unless you expect to have someone next to you more often than not, it's not worth it in the first place. If you do have another melee, Interception is a fine pick, but don't expect to be awed or anything.

    Finally, Great Weapon Fighting is not completely horrible, but it's very definitely not the best pick for a build using a two-hander. The damage increase is very small, best case scenario is an average of 1.33 every hit if you're using a greatsword or maul. Compare it with Dueling giving you +2; not a good look. If you're using a greataxe or a polearm, the boost is even more miniscule - the greataxe gets +0.83 and the d10 weapons get a +0.8. Decidedly not worth it without a greatsword or maul and even then you're unlikely to feel much of a damage drop if you go for Defense or Blessed Warrior. The style does become a lot better however if you expect to get your hands on something like a flame tongue weapon that has extra damage dice or if the DM allows you to reroll Divine Smite dice with it (by RAW and as per the SAC, you're not allowed to).

    If you satisfy either or both of the conditions for making Great Weapon Fighting better, then go with that. Otherwise, my personal suggestion would be Blessed Warrior; I don't think it's a choice you'll regret.
    Last edited by Chaos Jackal; 2023-03-30 at 05:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    For a Paladin, Dueling is very good, almost as good Protection and GWF put together. Dueling put you +2 AC and -1 damage compared to GWF. As a Paladin, you are not worried about a tiny bit less average damage, because you are going to smite to get burst damage situationally.

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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    For a Paladin, Dueling is very good, almost as good Protection and GWF put together. Dueling put you +2 AC and -1 damage compared to GWF. As a Paladin, you are not worried about a tiny bit less average damage, because you are going to smite to get burst damage situationally.
    I couldn't figure that out at first, I thought Dueling was nothing in your offhand. So just a single one handed weapon like a rapier type. But nope, they just don't want you to dual wield or two-hander.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Interception is my favorite of those listed - just really handy and good for the party, but probably the wrong theme for your guy.

    Blessed Warrior is great and you can lean into theme with your cantrip picks.

    Dueling is also a solid choice if you sword and board, but even better if you spear/staff and shield w/ PAM.

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    What is PAM? Feat or invocation?

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Dueling and Defense are boring but solid.

    Blessed warrior is great, though I think its even less spicy than dueling or defense in practice. You have guidance, that's a good spell who knew? Personal preference ofc but I'd rather pick something else.

    Interception is good in general, but isn't good on a hexadin IMO. You have better (if more selfish) uses for your reaction. Protection is simply worse than interception.

    Blindfighting is great, and eliminates disadvantage/advantage for the enemy in a ton of situations. I think people wrongly consider blindfighting a gimmick that you can use to exploit certain combos (fog cloud / darkness) when in reality its just ridiculously strong and useful in a lot of situations.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    What is PAM? Feat or invocation?
    The feat, polearm master.
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    I'll add my voice in for blind fighting as well, if Tasha's is an option. It's just great. One of those things that you rarely need, but is clutch when it's relevant.

    Unless I'm playing a specific build like an archer (pretty much just an archer, maybe two weapon fighting with a thrown weapon), Blind Fighting is always top of the list, followed by Defense.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Hexadin combat styles

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    What is PAM? Feat or invocation?
    Polearm master. Initially was for the heavy polearms like pike and halberd, but quarterstaff and spear was errata'd to work with PAM. It gives 2 really good things: 1) when a creature enters reach they provoke opportunity attack, meaning you get to make off-turn attacks way more often and, 2) when you attack you can also make an attack you can make an extra attack with a bonus action, the damage dice changes to d4. With duelist you add the +2 to the bonus action when you have a quarterstaff/spear and shield.

    For example a 1st level fighter, variant human with PAM. Using standard array and +1 str (so 16 strength score), with starting gear shield, chainmail, spear, and the duelist fighting style is actually a beast. 2 attacks at level 1, dealing 1d6+5 and 1d4+5, often using their reaction to attack. The chainmail and shield raises the AC to 18 which is pretty good for many levels to come.

    I'd say it's slightly less good on a paladin if the paladin has any bonus action usages, like smites or channel divinity, since it competes with the PAM bonus action. But still really good.
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