Why ISN'T it a shell game?

[brian 333]

I see Serini as the curmudeonly old person, sitting on her rocking chair, waving her cane atwhacking the neighborhood "kids" for walking on her lawn.

I think this as well, and I think she leans into it to keep the young'uns confused.

[Ionathus]

Yup. Weakest link <---

These sorts of tools are actually pretty decent in terms of security. But at the end of the day, you kinda have to actually copy/paste to use the stuff inside. Which means it's there ready to be pasted anywhere else if you forget. No way in heck I'm going to eyeball these things and then type them out by hand. That's just... insane. Not to mention they only pop up and are visible for like 30 seconds anyway.

Maybe your tool is different, but I know many password managers can autofill your login credentials without you needing to manually Copy them (thus putting them in your clipboard and leaving them at risk of being CTRL+V'd later on). You can click the "fill" button and then input your main PW and it autofills from there.

[gbaji]

Maybe your tool is different, but I know many password managers can autofill your login credentials without you needing to manually Copy them (thus putting them in your clipboard and leaving them at risk of being CTRL+V'd later on). You can click the "fill" button and then input your main PW and it autofills from there.

Yeah. We use those too. Yubikeys and whatnot work that way. But those also assume some existing account and known password/key, which you then add a one time key to (basically like the old RSA keyfob thingies, but new and improved). But you also need some means to store actual service/system account passwords so that a controlled list of people can access them and allow change enforcement policies. And those typically come in the form of some sort of e-vault mechanism you authenticate to, and retrieve the stored data (like passwords) from.

And yeah. Sometime you have to be able to type these things out, by hand, on a keyboard, on a computer when it's not up and connected to a network and therefore can't use those other tools (while suspended, upside down, in a loud data center server farm MI style, perhaps). Of course, copy/paste isn't working there either, which makes that a total PITA. This is where learning the correct destruction method for post-it notes comes in handy.

[brian 333]

The more I learn about being connected, the less I want to be connected. Old fashioned filing cabinets with paper in them are never coming back, but if you want data security, don't put it on a system that can potentially be connected to the internet.

People are always going to forget passwords, always want to write them down and reuse them. No matter how sophisticated the system, there will always be a human in the loop.

Except when Skynet gets involved. Then all bets are off.

[gbaji]

People are always going to forget passwords, always want to write them down and reuse them. No matter how sophisticated the system, there will always be a human in the loop.

Never underestimate the power of the post-it!

[Kazyan]

It could still be a shell game. There's totally a chance that Backstage counts as one of the final rooms.

[Aquillion]

It could still be a shell game. There's totally a chance that Backstage counts as one of the final rooms.

If that were the case then it would have been false that Redcloak and Xykon will eventually get to the gate via their current progression.

[brian 333]

Serini is a rogue. There is a relatively high percentage chance that she plans to cheat. It may not exactly be a shell game, but it doesn't have to be an honest one.

[Kish]

If that were the case then it would have been false that Redcloak and Xykon will eventually get to the gate via their current progression.

Indeed. Serini spelled out the situation and so many people are looking for ways it's not what she said, it baffles me.

[Juno Delphox]

I think, strictly speaking... A shell game isn't as safe!

Even if there's a million outcomes for the call, that's a 1 in a million chance. Which translates to about once a month of you follow Littlewoods Law.

Not exactly super safe! Even worse, you can get lucky with that! That's the odds (roughly) of getting all the same number on 10d4. Unlikely, not impossible.

But a gauntlet doesn't care about luck. If there's 1000 dungeons, they need to get through ALL of them. That whittles away resources, including time. You can't get lucky and complete every dungeon in time. If each dungeon takes just 1 hour that's already over a month. But that's assuming you do each dungeon in one run, never resting. That's a breakneck pace with a lot of resources being used up.

Either you get to the last dungeon exhausted, or you've given a lot of time for Serini to rally the defense. It's much safer and suits the Barbarian nature better of Brute Force!

[RatElemental]

I think, strictly speaking... A shell game isn't as safe!

Even if there's a million outcomes for the call, that's a 1 in a million chance. Which translates to about once a month of you follow Littlewoods Law.

Not exactly super safe! Even worse, you can get lucky with that! That's the odds (roughly) of getting all the same number on 10d4. Unlikely, not impossible.

In a shell game none of the shells have the ball under them, the ball is hidden up the conman's sleeve.

[Draconi Redfir]

In a shell game none of the shells have the ball under them, the ball is hidden up the conman's sleeve.

Right, but if the person playing the game KNOWS that none of the shells have the ball, they're not going to bother picking a shell, and they're going to look for the ball elsewhere.

So you'd effectively be setting up 1000 dungeons with monsters, traps, and obstacles, and then people can just NOT go through them and still get to the gate. Kind of defeats the entire point.

[Emberlily]

to synthesize two previous points I've seen made here:

sereni's words and actions indicate she seem to have built her place to focus on delaying opponents, so that only the most dedicated will even bother and in those situations there would be time to try to bring the band back together

her plan, with the information we have now, is just a pure brute force gauntlet, with no trick to go around. but the biggest threats will likely know details about the situation, and know that this place was designed by a rogue, and those people would likely expect some sort of trickery

so when major threats arrive and see a huge (and at least mildly risky) waste of time, and especially if they know who designed this place, they are almost certainly going to waste a lot of time and resources trying to figure out the trick to circumvent the entire thing (and we saw that team evil did just this, in fact). if there is no trick at all, what this means is that the preconception of a trick buys way more time than any of the tricks I can think of (that wouldn't be outlandish enough to feel out of left field and weaken the story)

I guess we could call it another form of double bluff?

now, maybe there's some sorta rule thing I'm missing here that makes me wrong (I like what some ppl have said about how these ideas would affect divinations, but I have no real clue how sound any of those arguments are mechanically), but narratively, this is satisfying and seems sound to me

[Resileaf]

now, maybe there's some sorta rule thing I'm missing here that makes me wrong (I like what some ppl have said about how these ideas would affect divinations, but I have no real clue how sound any of those arguments are mechanically), but narratively, this is satisfying and seems sound to me

Mechanically, divination spells tell you what the DM wants you to know.

[Draconi Redfir]

considering the stone around all the doors was described as being special in some way, something about blocking teleportation or something i think? i wouldn't be surprised if it interfered with divination too.

[Throknor]

considering the stone around all the doors was described as being special in some way, something about blocking teleportation or something i think? i wouldn't be surprised if it interfered with divination too.

I think half the point is that any divination will reflect the fact that the way to get to the gate is through the dungeons. If there was another way in - which is what a shell game would have - then there would be a risk that a perfect divination check would state that rendering all of them pointless. Even if an attacker could actually get the literal answer 'One must enter the last room of every dungeon to find the gate' they would still have to be able - and willing - to do so.

Serina presumed she would have time to rally her friends (old or new) to simply ambush such an invader. Even without the others of the Scribble Serina would have been able to (for example) pull in a bunch of troll friends to ambush a normal exhausted group emerging from a dungeon run. The problem is two-fold: Serina has zero resources that can handle Xykon and Redcloak together and they are now going much faster than she imagined any group could.

She has little choice other than working with OotS now. She just needs to accept that and they can start planning.

[gbaji]

to synthesize two previous points I've seen made here:

sereni's words and actions indicate she seem to have built her place to focus on delaying opponents, so that only the most dedicated will even bother and in those situations there would be time to try to bring the band back together

Well, and to be fair, most people trying to get to the gate would fail against this many dungeons and monsters. She's not 100% dependent on calling on help. That was her fall back plan on the off chance that someone as powerful as TE showed up for some reason.

her plan, with the information we have now, is just a pure brute force gauntlet, with no trick to go around. but the biggest threats will likely know details about the situation, and know that this place was designed by a rogue, and those people would likely expect some sort of trickery

How would they know it was built by a rogue? The same information that would tell anyone who built it would also tell them that she built it to honor Kraagor, a barbarian, and thus built her dungeon to reflect pure strength. That's for folks who know the lore directly (as the Order got from Shojo). Presumably, the rare folks (like TE) who get it from her diary, also got the same info "she's a rogue, but built it to honor Kraagor, etc... So... maybe?

Anyone else would only know that it's called either Monster Hollow or Kraagor's Tomb, and contains tons of dungeons with high level monsters. If they heard either name, it would lead them to think of monsters and dungeons, not a rogue. So yeah. I'm not seeing Joe random adventuring party coming for the gate, having any reason to think that it was built by a rogue, much less that the whole thing might be a giant shell game.

That's a double bluff that would fail against most people she's planning on defending the gate against. Not a good plan.

so when major threats arrive and see a huge (and at least mildly risky) waste of time, and especially if they know who designed this place, they are almost certainly going to waste a lot of time and resources trying to figure out the trick to circumvent the entire thing (and we saw that team evil did just this, in fact). if there is no trick at all, what this means is that the preconception of a trick buys way more time than any of the tricks I can think of (that wouldn't be outlandish enough to feel out of left field and weaken the story)

Eh. I think anyone with some magical resources, when faced with that many dungeon doors like this, would spend at least some time poking around to see if there's some other way to get to the gate. But, as several people have posted previously, that's a strong incentive to make sure that there is no other way to get there other than through the dungeons. And yes, that means that "through the dungeons" has to be a way to get to the gate, otherwise there's the possibility that someone might be able to divine that the dungeons are a fake out, and spend their time/effort elsewhere.

I guess we could call it another form of double bluff?

now, maybe there's some sorta rule thing I'm missing here that makes me wrong (I like what some ppl have said about how these ideas would affect divinations, but I have no real clue how sound any of those arguments are mechanically), but narratively, this is satisfying and seems sound to me

I wouldn't rule out some additional stuff she's got up her sleeve. Maybe. But I do tend to agree with most posters that the dungeons themselves must lead to the gate. If divination can determine anything at all, then "these doors don't get you to the gate" would be the lowest hanging fruit to figure out. Even if it's a very vague "You must explore the dungeons to find the gate" sort of response, that's what you want if you are Sereni, right?

So any other "tricks" still need to be in the context of additional layers of <something> that you get to via exploring the dungeons. I'm still having a hard time thinking of much in the way of traps or tricks that will stop any group capable of defeating all the dungeons though, so... I mean, she's got her amnesia potion, so that could be used on the living members of TE, but there's a lot of stuff that goes out the window when there's a high power lich involved.

[Gnoman]

How would they know it was built by a rogue? The same information that would tell anyone who built it would also tell them that she built it to honor Kraagor, a barbarian, and thus built her dungeon to reflect pure strength. That's for folks who know the lore directly (as the Order got from Shojo). Presumably, the rare folks (like TE) who get it from her diary, also got the same info "she's a rogue, but built it to honor Kraagor, etc... So... maybe?

Anyone else would only know that it's called either Monster Hollow or Kraagor's Tomb, and contains tons of dungeons with high level monsters. If they heard either name, it would lead them to think of monsters and dungeons, not a rogue. So yeah. I'm not seeing Joe random adventuring party coming for the gate, having any reason to think that it was built by a rogue, much less that the whole thing might be a giant shell game.

Given the information blackout, it becomes difficult to know the Gate is there without serious information on who built it. The Order only knows about it because they happened to be trying to kill Xykon for unrelated reasons, and then got clued in by a descendant of one of the original Scribblers. Team Evil only knows about this particular Gate because they found Sereni's diary - without that they would have been spinning their wheels after Azure City at best.

I have a hard time seeing a scenario where "Joe Random Adventuring Party" comes looking for the Gate at all.

[gbaji]

Given the information blackout, it becomes difficult to know the Gate is there without serious information on who built it. The Order only knows about it because they happened to be trying to kill Xykon for unrelated reasons, and then got clued in by a descendant of one of the original Scribblers. Team Evil only knows about this particular Gate because they found Sereni's diary - without that they would have been spinning their wheels after Azure City at best.

I have a hard time seeing a scenario where "Joe Random Adventuring Party" comes looking for the Gate at all.

Sure. Was kind of part of my point. Even if someone did come by, and knew about the gate being there (or even just "something powerful"), they would either know little or nothing about it or they would have gotten their lore from the same sources as TE and the Order. Which leads to "In honor of Kraagor, this gate is protected by the strongest monsters Serini could find". Sure. I suppose there might be some suspicion that Serini, being a rogue, might have made the whole thing a bluff, but as several people have pointed out, the only thing that would do is make all of those dungeons and monsters worthless.

There could be some tricks added on top of the dungeons, but you can bet that you're going to have to actually explore the dungeons and deal with the monsters within in order to get to the gate. There's not going to be some "trick" that allows you to bypass these dungeons, or it would be a weakness, not an additional strength.

[Draconi Redfir]

I have a hard time seeing a scenario where "Joe Random Adventuring Party" comes looking for the Gate at all.

Probably part of the point.

Any adventurer could randomly stumble across a gate in the woods. Or at the bottom of a dungeon.

While much less likely, anyone could (intentionally or otherwise) shattered what they thought was a mundane sapphire. A failed assassination attempt for example.

The desert one was pretty well hidden by illusions, and actively guarded. So that one might have been safe, unless someone mistook the temple for a dungeon and didn't bother to talk to the locals. And illusions can be dispelled, worn out, or otherwise bypassed.


Any random adventuring party who comes across a thousand dungeon doors in a wall is very unlikely to say "lets explore all of them". They'd likely get killed or decide to get out with their loot long before hiting every single one.


Most of the other methods have it where "Joe random adventuring party" could come across the gate by COMPLETE ACCIDENT. This method of gate guarding ensures that the only ones who are actively TRYING to find the gate will succeed. And even then they must pass through every dungeon in the wall, and might be killed in any one of them.