TO: Lion-O & the Thundercats (an Uber-Spellguard build)

[Gruftzwerg]

Lion-O & the Thundercats
(an Uber-Spellguard build)

Welcome to my newest TO build. After my Gaara build had a twist in the final lvl turning him into Mumm-Ra, I think it's time to adapt Lion-O as good as possible. Since I want to emulate the Sword of Omens' endless list of abilities we need a wizard to get what what we want here.
Yeah, you did hear me right: "I am going to theoretically optimize a T1 wizard."
You have been warned. The power lvl of this build is not intended for normal play.
While I tried to be as accurate as possible with the adaptation, there are a few optimizer choices and the things left out can be found at the bottom in the Alternate Build Options section. I hope that you all enjoy the build and leave some comments. Now let us dive into the build...

Race: Human

STR: 10
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 16 (mainstat, all points from lvlUp go in here)
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Alignment: (any non evil: L-N is fitting imho)

LVL	Class	BAB	For	Ref	Wil	Skills	Feats (H)= Human (W)= Wizard (SB)= Swiftblade (SG)= Spellguard	Class Features
1st	(Combat) Wizard	+0	+0	+0	+2	Concentration: 4 Hide: 2* Knowledge (arcana): 4 Perform (dance): 2* Search: 2* Spellcraft: 4	Combat Casting Extend Spell (H) Dodge (W)	Fighter Bonus Feat as Wizard
2nd	Wizard	+1	+0	+0	+3	Concentration: 5 Hide: 2.5* Knowledge (arcana): 5 Perform (dance): 2.5* Search:: 2.5* Spellcraft: 5
3rd	Wizard	+1	+1	+1	+3	Concentration: 6 Hide: 3* Knowledge (arcana): 6 Perform (dance): 3* Search: 3* Spellcraft: 6	Sanctum Spell
4th	Wizard	+2	+1	+1	+4	Concentration: 7 Hide: 3.5* Knowledge (arcana): 7 Perform (dance): 3.5* Search: 3.5* Spellcraft: 7
5th	(Combat) Wizard	+2	+1	+1	+5	Concentration: 8 Hide: 4* Knowledge (arcana): 8 Perform (dance): 4* Search: 4* Spellcraft: 8	Mobility (W)	Fighter Bonus Feat as Wizard
6th	Spellguard of Silverymoon	+2	+1	+1	+7	Knowledge (arcana): 9 Spot: 4 (+4) Spellcraft. 9	Endurance	Obligation Token Ward Attunement
7th	Wyrm Wizard	+2	+1	+1	+9	Hide: 5* (+2) Perform (dance): 5* (+2) Sense Motive: 1* (+2)		Knowledge of the Wyrm
8th	Wyrm Wizard	+3	+1	+1	+10	INT: 18 Hide: 5.5 Perform (dance): 5.5* Sense Motive: 3.5* (+5)		Spell Research: "Sheltered Vitality" (4th)
9th	Swiftblade	+4	+1	+3	+12	Perform (dance): 6* Spot: 8 (+4) Tumble: 4 (+4)	Persistent Spell Spring Attack (SB)	Spring Attack (feat) Swift Surge +1/+0 ft.
10th	Spelldancer	+4	+1	+5	+14	Hide: 6* Perform (dance): 13 (+7) Sense Motive: 4*		Spelldance
11th	Spellguard of Silverymoon	+5	+1	+5	+15	Hide: 7* (+2) Perform (dance): 14* (+2) Search: 5.5 (+3)	Reach Spell (SG)	Metamagic Feat
12th	Spellguard of Silverymoon	+5	+2	+6	+15	Hide: 7.5* Perform (dance): 15* (+2) Search: 7.5* (+4)	Combat Expertise	Selective Spell
13th	Spellguard of Silverymoon	+6	+2	+6	+16	Hide: 8* Perform (dance): 16* (+2) Search: 8*	Chain Spell (SG)	Metamagic Feat Spellguard
14th	Unseen Seer	+6	+2	+6	+18	Hide: 17 (+9) Perform (dance): 17* (+2)		Damage Bonus +1d6
15th	Unseen Seer	+7	+2	+6	+19	Hide: 18 Perform (dance): 18* (+2) Spot: 16 (+8)	Whirlwind	Advanced Learning: Hunter's Eye Silent Spell
16th	Spellguard of Silverymoon	+7	+2	+6	+19	INT: 20 Concentration: 12 (+4) Hide: 19 Perform (dance): 19* (+2) Spot: 19		Selective Spell (multiple types) Spell Power
17th	Unseen Seer	+8	+3	+7	+20	Concentration: 20 (+8) Hide: 20 Perform (dance): 20* (+2) Spot: 20		Divination Spell Power +1
18th	Unseen Seer	+9	+3	+7	+20	Concentration: 21 Hide: 21 Perform (dance): 21* (+2) Sense Motive: 11 (+7) Spot: 21	Sculpt Spell	Damage Bonus +2d6
19th	Unseen Seer	+9	+3	+7	+21	Concentration: 22 Hide: 22 Perform (dance): 22* (+2) Sense Motive: 18 (+7) Spot: 22		Advanced Learning: Susurrus of the City Guarded Mind
20th	Unseen Seer	+10	+4	+8	+21	Concentration: 23 Hide: 23 Perform (dance): 23* (+2) Sense Motive: 23 (+5) Spot: 23 Tumble: 6 (+2)		Divination Spell Power +2

Familiar: Snarf (Cat with obesity problems..^^)
Give him a pearl of speech for the fluff. I'm not showcasing any new Familiar stuff in this build, even though you can fully buff him up with all your spells (including polymorphing/shapechanging him into a full Thundercat). There is also an alternate build option to sacrifice him for other fluff options.

Spoiler: LVL Snapshots

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1-5
We start out as human combat wizard with a bunch of feats required for the build. We have a solid CON score to help our with the otherwise low D4 HP per lvl.
Sanctum Spell is needed for the early entry into Spellguard (requires 4th lvl spellcasting), since it can increase the lvl of the spell we cast by 1. Otherwise we would get problems to fit all the choices made into a build.
Except our feat and (maybe) spell selection we are mostly a normal wizard. (I recommend a regular spell selection for lvling and buying the build specific spells later)

6-10
Thx to Sanctum Spell we can now enter Spellguard.
Wyrm Wizard gives us access to Sheltered Vitality, which we'll need later to persist spells.
Swiftblade gives Spring Attack for free (we are aiming for Whirlwind).
Finally we enter Spelldancer. For now our Spelldancing is still limited by the regular rules. We should still at least persist Thunderlance, the signature weapon for this build. It can change size at will between 5 and 20ft reach, is made out of force, deals 3d6 dmg and can dispel low lvl force effects (max 3rd).

11-15
At lvl 11 with Reach Spell we can finally persist Sheltered Vitality, which makes us immune to ability damage and fatigue. This allows Lion-O to spelldance as much as he wants. He sole needs to pass the easy perform check (don't forget to Take-10).

Chain Spell has a very nice synergy with this build. Reach Spell allows to chain Touch Spells. And Spellguard (the ability!) allows to cast "defensive personal spells" as touch spells. (defensive spell is one that improves AC, increases a saving throw modifier, or grants additional hit points (either by healing wounds or by bestowing temporary hit points)). This allows Lion-O to become the party buffer and share many strong spells with his allies (see spells section).


With the spell Fiendform we get the outsider type (Spellguard should be able to turn it into a Touch Spell for chaining/persisting, since it provides natural armor bonuses). This allows us with (persisted) Polymorph to change into a Leonal. We get all the EX special attacks: Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 1d6+8. With Pounce & medium size on top, this is a well rounded combat form for most situations. We have finally become a Thundercat <3 *roar*
Later (@lvl15) we can chain this combo to share it with all allies. Thundercats HOOOOOOOO! ^^

Selective Spell allows to cast an Anti Magic Field and exclude Humanoids ("----" or "Humans" depending on party) (or Outsider is you have turned into a Leonal) and abuse it to prevent nearby enemies from casting. Shuts off the magic from everything that doesn't match your type. Sure, not a perfect defense, but still very strong. Finally, the enemy (caster?) needs to be aware of this specific exception and imho there is no way to check this before you text it in combat. The question is, who will risk wasting actions in combat to test if the AMF has specific (uncommon) exceptions? So unless the enemies already are of that type, the chances that someone sees trough the defense is very low imho. Note that the specific "Selective Spell" from Spellguard is very uncommon and ain't the same as the feat with the same name. Most casters won't get what is happening here.

Unseen Seer gives us access to the spell Hunter's Eye which provides the build with sneak attack dice.

We also finally get Whirlwind by default. With persisting Heroics we can get it earlier if we want (or pick Combat Reflexes as alternative). After getting it "normally" we can set Heroics always to Combat Reflexes.


16-20

With persisting Shapechange we get access to all kinds of interesting forms. But for the main part we will stay in Leonal form. This enables the SU abilities of the form: Lay on Hands heals up to the Leonal's max HP. Protective Aura is similar to Circle of Protection from Evil. The most interesting SLA for us are Cure Critical Wounds (3/day) and Heal (1/day). The Roar ability is also nice (effectively Holy Word + extra dmg). Imho this is really a nice default form for most stuff you will encounter.

Sculpt Spell gives us some interesting options to alter a spells area. Mostly used for fluff reasons to emulate the Sword of Omens cone magic abilities. Anti-Magic-Cone anyone??^^

As 2nd spell for Advanced Learning we pick Susurrus of the City. This is imho a very handy spell. You need just an abounded building and can ask it all kinds of questions. Sole limitation is that it can sole be answered in a single word and that someone in the city needs to know the answer. So, if you want to sole a crime and the evildoer is still in town, you can easily get his name. If you are creative enough, this can sole many questions. You can ask a question per turn and the spell is even persistable. Share it with your familiar (+pearl of speech) for double the amount of questions.

Finally we can call (summon) a Thundercat via Summon Monster IX: Leonal. Sadly its only one. If you want more there are some options. You need Twin Spell & Repeating Spell.
The first option would be to drop Arcane Trickster for 4 lvl of Incantatrix (gets 2 bonus meta feats).
The other option is via magical locations and imho the more elegant solution here. "Metamagic Storms" (Complete Mage) can give you a free meta-feat for the duration of a year (at which point you need to visit the location again for recharging it). It has an effective value for you WBL of sole 5k gold.
If you get either one of the feats, you can summon 2 Thundercats. And if you get both, you can summon 4 Thundercats.

Magic Items/Rings
(Pls read before continuing further)

Since we can persist so many spells and also have access to wish (for the inherit bonuses to stats), there ain't that much need for most of the regular stuff. The sole normal item that is interesting here is a Ring of Wizardry III to persist more 3rd lvl spells...^^
But there is one specific item that is still kinda a game changer, even for such a strong build. Or shall I better say explicitly for this kind of build. Normally it doesn't see much use in most games, but we will abuse it with Spelldance. It's so strong that it deserves its own section. I'm curious if anyone can guess it? I'll put the item into a spoiler, so you can check if your assumption was right. I have the impression that nobody will guess it right.

Here a lil Hint (or check if you are maybe right with your guess)

Spoiler: Hint

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"Ring of _ _ _ U_ _ _"

(7 letters; the 4th letter is a "U")

But enough teasing, here it is:

Spoiler: Super Special Item for this Build

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Ring of Theurgy
(Complete Arcana p145)

For normal wizards the Ring of Theurgy (while nice to have) ain't that special. It can store up to 3 spells or any level you can "cast into it". Those spells can than be accessed by using a move action to move em to an unprepared free slot. Since you need to cast the spell into it and later have a slot free to access it again, this is normally used when you have unused spells at the end of a day, or during downtime days.
But...
...this is not a normal wizard build.
Spelldancing has a lil downside and that is that you normally want to avoid Spelldancing within combat. It just takes to long when you consider that most combat sole lasts a few rounds (if at all..). But with the ring, we can safely spelldance in downtimes (out of combat) and cast the spell into it (the ring). We can then either immediately or later prepare the metamagic spell on a regular slot (note that thx due to spelldance, the spellslots-lvl of the original spell doesn't change).
While it still has the downside of a wasting a spellslot in the process, this allows the Spelldancer to make use of metamagic for combat spells and not sole for persisting stuff out of combat. This is a huge deal. If you still don't believe me, here just the tip of the this big iceberg.

[Reach Spell] [Chain Spell] Vampiric Touch
Gimme, Gimme, Gimme! (more HP)

Damage all enemies and get a good chunk of temporary HP in return. A very strong combat starting option. Mainly mentioned because it can fit into a Spell Matrix (see below in the spells section).

[Reach Spell] [Chain Spell] [Persistent Spell] Otto's Irresistible Dance
Can't Stop Raving!

Unless your enemies have Spell Resistance or immunity to mindaffecting stuff, they can't stop dancing for the next 24h.
Remind you that they all provoke AoO on their turn and that we have big reach with the Thunderlance.

[Spellguard][Reach Spell] [Chain Spell] [Persistent Spell] Time Stop
Time Stands Still (At the Iron Hill)

You and all your allies get 24h to either leave/move on, or to re-prepare for the actual situation. Rest 8h, prepare new spells and rebuff how you see it fit. Note that even if you "skip" the fight, you would still get the full encounter XP in 3.5... The abuse potential is just crazy. At any moment you can pop this to have an extra 24h and refresh your spells. This also makes the preparation process for the spells into the Ring of Theurgy very easy because we have all the time we need..^^

Imho these two examples should showcase how broken the item is in the hands of this spelldancing build. There is other cool stuff possible, but I think these two at the best representatives of the gained power spike.
If you did get Twin Spell & Repeating Spell (e.g. via finding/visiting Metamagic Storms) you could also fit the altered Summon M. IX into the ring and then prepare it on a regular slots. The ring is just awesome for this build.


Note on Rings in an Anti-Magic Field:
If we use AMF as sphere, normally our magic items become temporary nonfunctional. But since the AMF spreads from the square below out feet and not from within our body, we can block Line of Sight with wearing simple gloves over the rings. We sole need to wear the item and not to see the item to use it. Problem solved.

Spoiler: (Persistent) Spells

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Spells

I'm going to give some suggestions to persist & chain, and mention other important spells.
(P) persist this spell
(E) extend this spell (mainly for spells with 24h base duration, thus you sole need to cast those every 2nd day)
(C) can be Chained

0th:

Detect Ghosts (P) - Niche but nice to have if it sole costs a 0th lvl spellslot

Detect Magic (P) - Having it always ready is nice to check for magical threats and magical loot.

Prestidigitation (P) - Why you ask? Because we can. What else you are gonna spend your 0th lvl slot on? ^^

Mage Hand - Sole mentioned since we need it for Arcane Trickster


1st:

Blades of Fire (P) - weapon deals 1d8 extra fire dmg

Shieldbearer (P&C) - Shield floats around you and grants shield bonus without the need of proficiency and any penalties.

Combat Readiness (P&C) - up to +6 insight bonus to Initiative and become unflankable

Expeditious Retreat (P) - gives +30ft speed to all movement modes

Detect Secret Doors (P) - One of the many handy detect spells.

See Invisible (P) - Never be surprised by invisible stuff.

Golem Strike (P) - Allows to Sneak Attack constructs

Master's Touch (P) - Gives Proficiency with a weapon or shield. Sole needed if the DM argues that we lack it for the Thunderlance.

Weapon Shift (P) - This spell is just for the fluff if you would like to have a sword instead of a (thunder)lance. Argue that the unique dmg and reach are special abilities to keep em. In 3.5, Sword of Omen has really a size complex..^^


2nd:

Heroics - Get a fighter bonus feat. Mainly used for Combat Reflexes (or to unlock Whirlwind earlier).

Detect Toughts (P) - Imho one of the best ways to detect hidden enemies

Bladeweave (P) - Once a turn try to daze an enemy you successfully did attack. Will save

Wraithstrike (P) - Since we have a very low BAB, Persisted Wraithstrike is just great. Melee touch attacks with our Thunderlance all day long.

Hunter's Eye (P) - Up to 5d6 Sneak Attack all day long. Yes pls!^^


3rd

Sonorus Hum (P) - Concentrate on a spell for free. Suggested spells:
a) Kiss of Draconic Defiance - Enemy spellcasting requires a Fortitude save (spell's DC). When we use "selective AMF" and the enemy matches our type, they still need to pass this hurdle to cast anything. Due to the duration of "Concentration + 1 round" it effectively becomes persisted too ^^ Imho the best option here.
b) Misleading (P) - Concentrate on your illusionary clone for free.
c) Sonic Rumble (P) - free cone attack 1/2 clvl x d6 dmg.
d) Animate Weapon (P&C) - Mainly mentioned because the Sword of Omen can fight on his own if needed. From 3.5 perspective chaining animated weapons is imho a bad-ass move. And concentrating for free? Yes pls.

Greater Magic Weapon (C) - Buff all weapons of your party. Or an entire set of weapons for "Animate Weapons" (see above).

Arcane Sight (P) - Detect any magic going on.

Fly (P&C) - Flying all day for all your allies.

Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (P) - 1/2 clvl moral bonus on all melee attacks.

Permeable Form (P) - Become incorporeal. Since incorporeal creatures interact normally with force effects, we can use it without any problems. And the thunderlance affects everything (incorporeal or not). A very strong defense.

Greater Mage Armor (P&C) - Gives us +6 armor bonus, even if incorporeal. Yes pls.

Nezram's Amethyst Aura (P&C) - Become immune to Poisons and Diseases

Nondetection (P&C) - Defense against divination spells (e.g. clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells..)

Spiderskin (P) - Up to +5 to Natural Armor (enhancement), Hide (racial bonus), and saves against Poison (racial).


4th

Sheltered Vitality (P&C) - All allies become immune to ability dmg and fatigue and we can spelldance as much as we want. One of the cornerstones of this build.

Thunderlance - The main ability of this build. A lance with a special reach that can extend up to 20 ft reach. Perfect match for Whirlwind. It made outta pure force and can even dispel low lvl force effects. 3d6 base dmg is a solid value for a weapon. If you want it to be a sword for fluff reasons, look at Weapon Shift (1st lvl).

Greater Mirror Image (P) - A very strong defensive spell that slims down enemies chance to really target us with attacks or spells.

Greater Invisibility (P&C) - Provides us with Sneak Attacks all day long as long as the enemy doesn't have any way to spot us. Gets later replaced by Superior Invisibility.

Detect Scrying (E) - Be aware of any attempts to scry on you or at your location. We become immediately aware of the foe's direction and distance towards us. Imho best combined with a (Sanctum Spell) Greater Teleport (Contingency) that instantly teleports us to the idiot that tried to spy on us. That will be a good shock if the foe suddenly sees Lion-O ready to attack, behind his own back.

Polymorph (P&C) - Get/share Outsider type via the Fiendform spell and polymorph your entire party into Leonal. For now (until we get Shapechange) we sole get the nice phyiscal stats and EX special attacks (Pounce, Imp. Grap (Bite), Rake). We have established our lil party of Thundercats. Since Chain Spell can have up to 20 secondary targets (target/casterlvl) we should be able to cover the entire pary including familiars, companions, NPCs and whatever else is tagging along with us.

Ray Deflection (P) - This helps against long range ray spells (from outside our potential AMF range) to deflect em harmlessly away. Imho this is fitting the fluff how the Sword of Omens can deflect ray attacks.

Cone of Ephoria (P) - Enables a standard cone attack that dazes all creatures for 1d6 rounds. Imho this is effectively the Eye of Pandera when Lion-O calls for his allies and the enemies stand in shock/dazed unable to do anything. Sculpt spell gives a bigger cone.


5th

Dragonsight - see twice as for as humans in normal light conditions; Low ligt vision 4 times as far; Darksight 10ft / clvl and Blindsight 5ft /clvl. Nothing should escape our keep cat eyes.

Fiendform (P&C) - While we can persist it, we sole need it to get the Outsider type for Polymorph. So chaning it with your party before your Poly cast is imho enough.

Xorn Movement (P&C) - If you don't want to be incorporeal (see Permeable Form), this is the alternative to move trough the ground.

Sonic Shield (P&C) - Gives +4 deflection bonus to AC and anyone who hits you in melee gets knocked back 5ft on a failed fortitude save. Will break the full attacks of anyone who somehow manages to hit Lion-O.

Unfeattered Heroism (P) - If you play with Action Points, this is just great to "cheat" all day long. Get a free virtual Action Point that you can spend each turn.


6th

Antimagic Field (P) - With selective spell we can exclude our parties type (outsider due to becoming "Thundercats"). If you want to stay true to the show, use sculpt spell to change it into a cone. Both shapes have ups and downs. Either double the size of the bubble (spread) or turn it into a cone. Have fun denying your enemies magic while wielding magic yourselve without any problems.
*My magic is your magic; and your magic is my magic; and my magic is mine!*

Eyes of the Oracle (P&C) - +2 insight bonus to Armor Class and a +2 insight bonus on Reflex saves; ready a standard action for free each turn. This spell opens up the ultimate cheese combo for this build. See "Infinite Time Stop" further below

Chasing Perfection (P&C) - A +4 enchantment bonus to all Ability scores for everybody. A really great buff for the party.

Fires of Purity (P&C) - +1 fire dmg/clvl (max +15) on all melee attacks and if enemies hit you. Half dmg from fire and if it allows a Reflex save for half dmg, take no dmg on a successful save.

Starmantle (P&C) - Nonmagical weapons just shatter on contact with our body. And against magical weapon we can make a DC15 Reflex save to sole take half dmg from that attack.

True Seeing (P&C) - For obvious reasons. Together with all the other perception altering spells, we have a very "keen" sight^^.

Greater Heroism (P&C) - Gives your entire party +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points (= clvl; max 20).

Superior Resistance (E&C) - We double the 24h base duration and get +6 resistance bonus to saves for our entire party. Gets later exchanged for "Protection from Spells" (+8 resistance bonus).

Contingency - Always a handy spell for those who wanna be always prepared. Imho best used with (Sanctum Spell) Greater Teleport in combination with "Detect Scrying" (reveals the location of the foe) to teleport to anyone who tries to magically spy on us.

Susurrus of the City - cast on the wall of abandoned house, it will try to answer all questions that can be answered in a single word. It can only answer the questions if at least one person in the city knows the answer. Wile this may seem very limiting, it can be very cheesy too. Like asking for the name of the murder at a crime scene. One question can be answered per turn. Since it can be persisted, we can ask questions all day long and get as much info as we want. Just be creative with the questions.


7th

As the Frost (P&C) - Another option to get/share the outsider type (Immunity = effectively an infinite bonus to saves against cold; this qualifies for "Spellguard" to turn it into a touch spell). Comes with immunity to cold and an cold aura.

Energy Immunity (E&C) - We can double the 24h base duration and become immune to one energy type.

Spell Matrix (P) - Can load up to two 3rd lvl spells and release their effects later on as a swift action. If the spells are not higher than 2nd lvl, they can be released together within a single swift action. WE can abuse this similar to the ring of Theurgy for preparing spells with Spelldance. We'll load two "Sanctum - Reach - Chained - Vampiric Touch" spells into it. Note that the spell now counts as 2nd lvl spell (sanctum spell). Use this as combat starter against larger groups of enemies to show which side has the upper hand here^^. Deal a bunch of dmg and gain an enormous amount of temporary HP. If you wanna go really silly, load up the same metamagic feats on Shivering Touch and end the combat immediately..^^

Arcane Spellsurge (P) - Cast all spells "one step faster". Most stuff becomes a swift action and those nasty 1round spells turn into standard action spells. Just great for action management.


8th

Superior Invisibility (P&C) - Unless the enemy has True Sight, he won't be able to detect us (no scent, no sound, sole touch; beats most other detection spells against invisibility).

Protection from Spells (P&C) - Expensive component (1000g) but provides a +8 resistance bonus if you can effort it.

Lighting Ring (P) - Adjacent creatures take 10d6 lightning dmg and we get 2 free lightning bolts that each deal 5d6 dmg every turn. Use this if you expect combat all day long. Sword of Omens is really OP as hell..^^

Mysterious Redirection (P) - If enemy melee and ranged attacker fails a Will save, the attack (made with natural or manufactured weapon) has a 50% chance to be redirected to another adjacent creature. If no target is available the attack fails.

Otto's Irresistible Dance (P&C) - "Just Dance!" Unless you enemy has SR or immunity to mindaffecting effect this will end all combat. As said in the magic item section, we need a Ring of Theurgy to prepare this for actual combat use.


9th

Shapechange (P&C) - For obvious reasons. Mainly to become real (+ all special abilities) Leonal (Thundercats). But the abuse potential is there is you want. But imho Leonal are really great choices. We can still cast and use weapons in this form and it comes with a bunch of great SU abilities (Roar, SLA, Lay on Hands for max HP..). Lion-O only hangs out with other Thundercats (sorry for the lil racist build here btw..)

Shinshee's Spell Shift (P) - Mainly interesting if you want to Widen the area of a spell for this build. E.g widen AFM (40ft sphere or 80ft cone)

Time Stop (P&C) - Give your party another 24h before continuing what you where doing. Need to rest and refresh HP and (arcane) spells? Just rest for 8h and use the remaining time to either plan your next actions or abuse this of method of fast traveling. You could also "speed up" your allies crafting so much that that anything could be crafted in just a few rounds effectively. The abuse potential here is just game breaking. To prepare this for combat use we need the Ring of Theurgy.

Invoke Magic - If your DM should argue that your Thunderlance doesn't work in an AMF (imho by RAW it should work with selective spell) you can rely on this.

Summon Monster IX - Not enough Thundercats? This can summon a Leonal. If you want more than one, you need to get access to Twin Spell and Repeating Spell (e.g. via Metamagic Storms) to get up to 4 Thundercats per spell cast.

Greater Dimension Jumper (P) - Teleport up to 60ft as a swift action. Always handy to reposition between out Full Attack (e.g. Whirlwind to hit more enemies) or ensure that we can Pounce every turn if we want.

Spoiler: Alternate Build Options (additional fluff)

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Flaw & Fluff Feat

Short Attention Span (Dragon #328) - Can't take 20 and gets a -2 penalty to reroll skill checks.
Spell Thematics - Now we have an excuse to visualize all spells with the thundercats logo^^

Real Sword of Omens

The Thunderlance was an optimizer's choice in the build for reasons. Imho a more fitting adaptation would be the Focus Caster ACF (Dragon #348). We would select Evocation to bind ourselves to a bladed weapon. This becomes our arcane focus item that we always need to access our spells, which is imho very fitting for the adaptation of the Sword of Omens. We could later magically enhance it to become a "morphing" weapon. The downside here is the standard action required for the change and that it offers no reach compared to the Thunderlance. Finally, if we want to (ab)use Anti Magic Field (or Cone^^), it may be problematic for the weapons magic.. If you are fine with the limitations and want the maximum fluff, this is the way to go. Note that this ACF also sacrifices Snarf! (no familiar)

Infinite Time Stop

1. Persist Eyes of the Oracle
2. Prepare [Spellguard][Reach Spell] [Chain Spell] [Persistent Spell] Time Stop into the Ring of Theurgy
3. Ready every turn an action to cast Time Stop if combat should start somehow.

Note that an readied action happens before the triggering action!

4. When now at any point of the day combat starts, we get a 24h time stop.
5. Rest and refresh you spells
6. Persist daily spells again (mainly Eyes of the Oracle)
7. Set the trigger of EotO to the "start of real time / start of combat"
8. Go back to 5. if you need want to freeze the time for another day.

This way not a single round will pass and you can chain as many Persisted Time Stops as you want.

The build has everything. From persisting all spells up to 9th lvl to Pounce and Sneak Attack. As if a regular batman wizard wouldn't be broken enough, Lion-O just takes it to the next lvl with his always readied Infinite Time Stop. This build is always prepared.

I hope you enjoyed this silly TO: Uber-spellguard build. But imho it is fitting for all the magical stuff the Sword of Omens has to offer.

As always, pls drop some comments. Help me to find any remaining bugs. Question or critique (friendly) the rule interactions. Did you like the build? Is it a good adaption? Or what else comes to your mind.


And most importantly: "Did you guessed the magic item??" ^^


PS: As always, I'm sure that small bugfixes & updates will follow..

[Anthrowhale]

Selective Spell [humanoid] Antimagic Field is a noop since AMF does not affect humanoids? It only has a direct effect on incorporeal or summoned creatures.

[Gruftzwerg]

Selective Spell [humanoid] Antimagic Field is a noop since AMF does not affect humanoids? It only has a direct effect on incorporeal or summoned creatures.

An AMF doesn't sole affect incorporeal and summoned creatures. Those are sole additional specific effects to the main effect.

...
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. A hasted creature, for example, is not hasted while inside the field, but the spell resumes functioning when the creature leaves the field. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
...

- Normally all buff spells on any creature are suppressed.
- Finally all creatures can't cast spells into the area.

Imho, to suppress any active buff spells on a creature the AMF needs to affect the creature (LoE). The (buff) spells are not floating around the creature but are effects placed on the creature (e.g. Polymorph).
Selective spell can exclude a creature type from being affected by the (AMF) spell. The spell in question doesn't has to have anything to do with types. It just needs to affect creatures somehow and this is one such interactions where Selective Spell effectively breaks the Line of Effect to the target creature type. Take the fireball example. A fireball spell normally doesn't care for types, but affects creatures in general. Selective Spell can still exclude a creature type from its effect.

By excluding the (outsider) type from the effect of the AMF, our "Thundercats" (read: Outsiders! not humanoids! interestingly this is in line with their story crashlanding on the 3rd earth) can still keep their buff spells and even cast spells (with some limitations) into the area if they want.

While this leaves/creates a lil hole in the defense of AMF, it's still debatable if the enemy can notice this somehow. I don't know of any kind of detection method for "metamagic" applied to a spell. And even if the enemy would know somehow that it has been altered by "Selective Spell", the Spellguards version is still special (type dependent). There is imho no chance to find out the weaknesses in actual combat. I mean, how much time will someone spent in a fight to figure out what is happening? Most things will die if they are in AMF reach.

And the enemy caster needs to see him in the first place to target him at all (Superior Invisibility + Hide). This requires True Sight and a high Spot modifier!
So in 99,99% of the cases, we shouldn't feel any loss in the defensive power of AMF by using Selective Spell (Outsider).
Note that if enemies try to cast AoE ground affects, they still can't affect the party. Because the ground is still anti-magical and suppresses the effect. No AoE dispell.

edit: I hope I could address your concerns. Out of curiosity, did you like the build? And did you had any guess regarding the magic item?

[Anthrowhale]

By excluding the (outsider) type from the effect of the AMF, our "Thundercats" (read: Outsiders! not humanoids! interestingly this is in line with their story crashlanding on the 3rd earth) can still keep their buff spells and even cast spells
(with some limitations) into the area if they want.

Selective Spell only alters the AMF effect w.r.t. a creature type, not the AMF effect w.r.t. spells or the AMF effect w.r.t. area.

Archmage's Mastery of Shaping alters the area of effect.

Edit: The LoE argument specifically doesn't work because creatures do not block LoE. Instead, you need a solid barrier with only holes smaller than 1' x 1'. If creatures functioned as a "solid barrier" w.r.t. LoE you would not need Selective Spell to preserve buffs on a creature since the creature would block LoE regardless of whether it was affected.

[Gruftzwerg]

Selective Spell only alters the AMF effect w.r.t. a creature type, not the AMF effect w.r.t. spells or the AMF effect w.r.t. area.

Archmage's Mastery of Shaping alters the area of effect.

The ability text gives an example:

...
At the spellguard's option, that type of creature is either the only type affected by the spell or the only type unaffected by it. Inorganic material, objects, and anything else that does not have a creature type is affected normally. Casting a selective spell requires a fullround action.

For example, suppose a spellguard is patrolling the forest around Silverymoon with a party of Knights in Silver made up of two humans, an elf, and a dwarf. Suddenly, the group is rushed by goblins. The spellguard uses his selective spell ability to cast a fireball, designating humanoid (goblinoid) as the only creature type affected. The fireball detonates in the midst of the melee, and although the spellguard's companions are within the area of the spell, they are spared any ill effects.
...

The ability allows any spell to either affect only a certain type or to exclude a certain type from its effect. And it works with AoE spells as I said.

Buff spells are "not hanging around you". That are placed on you (the creature). AMF needs to affect a creature to suppress any buffs it may have. But Selective Spells excludes the creature from the effect. Thus the AMF doesn't has LoE towards the buff spells on the creature.

And "suppressing spells used within" is also excluded for the creatures of the excluded type. It's as if AMF ain't there for the excluded creatures. Exceptions are "conjured creatures" (and arguably "conjured" objects). Unless those are also of the excluded type, they behave as normal in an AMF.

I hope I could clear up your doubts here. If not, let me know and point out where you see the difference between the fireball example and AMF. Why should the selective spell AMF still affect "your" abilities if it can't affect "you"(the source of the abilities)?

Still curious what you (and the others) think about the build. And again the question if you did try to guess the magic item.

edit: since you made an edit regarding "LoE":
LoE is broken due to the excluded creature type by selective spell. This is why it can't suppress any buff spells on those targets.

[Anthrowhale]

I'll try to be explicit for clarity.

The ability allows any spell to either affect only a certain type

Agreed.

or to exclude a certain type from its effect.

No, it says "only type unaffected". The area of effect is unaltered. The wording difference is critical here. Contrast with Mastery of Shaping:

The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell.

If the editors wanted to alter the area of effect they had a well known precedent for doing so.

Buff spells are "not hanging around you". That are placed on you (the creature).

Agreed.

AMF needs to affect a creature to suppress any buffs it may have.

I believe this has no rules support, please quote something otherwise.

But Selective Spells excludes the creature from the effect.

This is not supported by the text. The text just says that it leaves creatures unaffected without any discussion of altering the area of effect.

If not, let me know and point out where you see the difference between the fireball example and AMF. Why should the selective spell AMF still affect "your" abilities if it can't affect "you"(the source of the abilities)?

A fireball has direct effects on "creatures" and "unattended objects", so if the creature is unaffected then the creature is fine. The creatures attended items are also fine since they were not threatened by the Fireball in the first place.

An AMF has direct effects on creatures, magic use, and magical effects. Thus if a creature is unaffected, magic use and magical effects are still affected.

Still curious what you (and the others) think about the build. And again the question if you did try to guess the magic item.

I tripped on the selective spell reading. I haven't seen other issues although avoiding Wyrm Wizard would be nice to get full spell advancement.

LoE is broken due to the excluded creature type by selective spell. This is why it can't suppress any buff spells on those targets.

I believe you have an interpretation of how creatures are unaffected by selective spell and are applying the mechanical implications of that interpretation. But, your interpretation of how the rules come into effect is not canonical. For example, maybe selective spell just provides a spell-specific immunity similar to the way Spell Immunity works. In the absence of any canonical interpretation, picking one interpretation and synthesizing rules around it is a houserule. That's fine although it may limit the applicability of things.

If you want to have buffs inside an AMF, Initiate of Mystra is the standard tool.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'll try to be explicit for clarity.

Thx for being more precise, I appreciate it. I also have the impression that we are misunderstanding each others arguments to some degree..^^

No, it says "only type unaffected". The area of effect is unaltered. The wording difference is critical here. Contrast with Mastery of Shaping:

If the editors wanted to alter the area of effect they had a well known precedent for doing so.

I'm not arguing that the square is unaffected. I'm arguing that the LoE is broken, since the spell can't affect the creature here. And since the buffs are on the creature, AMF can't suppress em.

I believe this has no rules support, please quote something otherwise.

Have a look at Area Dispel from Dispel Magic:

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

There are sole indicators that the "buffs are attached to the creature". I mean how else is the magical effect gonna move with you? Unless the buff is cast on the "ground" (a point on the battle-map), it has a "Target:" where it applies to. And if that "target" ain't affected by AMF, then AMF can't suppress any buffs on it.

It's up to you to find any rule to argue against this. Imho "target" is enough evidence where the effect is placed.

This is not supported by the text. The text just says that it leaves creatures unaffected without any discussion of altering the area of effect.

A fireball has direct effects on "creatures" and "unattended objects", so if the creature is unaffected then the creature is fine. The creatures attended items are also fine since they were not threatened by the Fireball in the first place.

While selective spell doesn't alter the area by "squares", the "area (3D space)" of effect is still altered by the excluded creatures. The selective spell loses LoE towards the excluded creatures (not excluding the square the creature is in!).
And regarding a creatures outfit/gear/stuff... those are still affected by the AMF. That's why I suggested to wear gloves over the rings the build uses: "to break LoS/LoE". This way the rings remain unaffected by the AMF.

An AMF has direct effects on creatures, magic use, and magical effects. Thus if a creature is unaffected, magic use and magical effects are still affected.

The general AMF effect is that creatures can't use/cast magical effects. Selective Spell bypasses this for some creatures. "Your magic" is still a part of "you". The rules differentiate between your own spells and other spells (e.g. you always successfully dispel your own spells). As such I would argue that Selective Spell still applies here. I am the source of my magic and if I am excluded by the effect of AMF so if my magic. Imho everything indicates that a spells effect is an extension of you(r abilities).
You spells are not an entity by themselves. We ain't talking about Living Spells here.

I tripped on the selective spell reading. I haven't seen other issues although avoiding Wyrm Wizard would be nice to get full spell advancement.

I know what you mean. But since I wanted to have Sheltered Vitality for reasons, it was unavoidable. And since I decided to enter Arcane Trickster with Hunter's Eye, the other lvls into Wyrm Wizard are also set here.
You can drop Arcane Trickster in favor for something else if you don't like it. I personally did find it thematically fitting to have some stealth abilities (also from an optimizer's point of view).
But as suggested in the alternate build options section, you can exchange it for Incantatrix for 2 meta feats. Maybe that option would be more appealing to you. You could drop WW after lvl 2 and even have up to 6 class lvls to spent on other stuff.

I believe you have an interpretation of how creatures are unaffected by selective spell and are applying the mechanical implications of that interpretation. But, your interpretation of how the rules come into effect is not canonical. For example, maybe selective spell just provides a spell-specific immunity similar to the way Spell Immunity works. In the absence of any canonical interpretation, picking one interpretation and synthesizing rules around it is a houserule. That's fine although it may limit the applicability of things.

I agree that there are still some limitations for the excluded creatures, like "you can cast a summon spell, but the summon itself is still subject to the AMF". But I still argue that the unaffected creature can cast spells in the AMF. Any instantaneous effect should still apply.
There are some edge cases like your (unaffected) enchantment spell on an affected foe which are arguable to some degree. The same with "conjured" objects or ground effects.
But imho instantaneous effects and effects that are sustained by my magic should still work. By "sustained by my magic" I mean the opposite of a "summon"/conjuration. E.g. the Thunderlance: It is sustained by the caster's magic for its duration (since it is nor conjured). And if the caster is unaffected by the AMF, so is "his/her" magic (which is still a part of that creature imho).

If you want to have buffs inside an AMF, Initiate of Mystra is the standard tool.

I'm aware of the feat, but that is sole for clerics of mystra and not for an arcane caster like this one. So it was not an option to begin with. But imho it's not the sole option to have fun within an AMF as caster.

[Rebel7284]

- Why not pick up Hunter's Eye with Unseen Seer? No caster progression loss that way.
- Focus Caster can lets you cast your spells through a sword.

[Gruftzwerg]

- Why not pick up Hunter's Eye with Unseen Seer? No caster progression loss that way.

(...)
A good question.. a very good question since I used this very same trick a year ago in the Imaskari Vengeance Taker round for the Iron Chef contest..^^

I really feel stupid now.. o.0

Yeah, thanks for pointing me into the right direction ;)

I'll see if I can rearrange the skills to squeeze it in somehow. It doesn't lose the caster lvl and provides another 1d6 sneak attack dmg.

I try to include it into the update. Thank you again.

- Focus Caster can lets you cast your spells through a sword.

Is mentioned in the "Alternate Build Options" spoiler. It has some (more) mechanical downsides which was my main reason from an optimizer's perspective. I think that the AMF would interfere with it. Thus I left it as additional fluff option. Otherwise I was very interested in that option. It just didn't fit as good as the Thunderlance imho.

_____________________________

I still hope for more feedback before I will start my update process. Otherwise it becomes a hassle if I do it for every lil thing separately.

I also noticed myself that I forgot a warning tag for "Spellguard > Reach > Chaining" - Persistent - Time Stop, since it relies on a very cheesy interpretation. Spellguard can only be used on defensive spells, which is explicitly defined for the ability itself. We rely on the excuse that Persistent Time Stop will provide Natural Healing, which is a very shady and cheesy argument that I have to admit it. But even if the DM interferes and rules against it, Persistent Time Stop just for Lion-O himself is still strong and broken as hell.
I was constantly forgetting the limitations of "Spellguard" and this is one of the cases. I would be happy if the forum's hivemind could double check the spell list in that regards.


Again, I hope for more feedback. No matter what.
And somehow I feel that everybody seems to have skipped the magic item riddle/minigame I intended. Well, it is as it is..^^

Thx for all your interest and contribution so far.

[Anthrowhale]

Have a look at Area Dispel from Dispel Magic:

This appears unsupportive of the argument to me.

While selective spell doesn't alter the area by "squares", the "area (3D space)" of effect is still altered by the excluded creatures.

There is no text in selective spell which supports this. Unaffected is simply not the same as excluded.

I'm aware of the feat, but that is sole for clerics of mystra and not for an arcane caster like this one.

It is possible to get Initiate of Mystra for a wizard at level 18 via Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Hathran 3 noting the revision for initiate feats in Dragon Magic.

[Zarvistic]

But you could use the same argument there right? Wouldnt any buff spell cast with IoM still be suppressed within the amf? "Functions normally" doesnt seem to have any clear definition unless you houserule as you say.

[Anthrowhale]

But you could use the same argument there right? Wouldnt any buff spell cast with IoM still be suppressed within the amf? "Functions normally" doesnt seem to have any clear definition unless you houserule as you say.

Yeah, I've actually flipped on this in the past. My present belief is that "functions normally" was meant as "functions as if there was no AMF". If a DM ruled it was "suppressed as normal within an AMF", that's not outrageous. In either ruling though, I would say that IoM does not carve a spell-size hole in the AMF.

[Gruftzwerg]

This appears unsupportive of the argument to me.


There is no text in selective spell which supports this. Unaffected is simply not the same as excluded.


It is possible to get Initiate of Mystra for a wizard at level 18 via Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Hathran 3 noting the revision for initiate feats in Dragon Magic.

And what about the mentioned "Target:" line of the buff spell. Most buff spells target a creature. The "Target:" defines to what the buff spell's effect is attached in "(3d) space" (creature or object on the battle-map), or from where (square) it spreads.

Finally, you have to show that a spell cast is not a part of you anymore. Think about spells you need to concentrate on. How do the rules know that you may control the spell if it ain't "your spell" anymore? The interpretation you are implying here sole leads to dysfunctions imho. Think about the consequences for other stuff if we would follow your interpretation.

regarding IoM:
I appreciate your suggestion, but that would be a to drastic change from what I intended here. I wanted the Spellguard's ability to turn personal spells into touch spells. Finally, the build is very feat hungry which further limits the options here.

But you could use the same argument there right? Wouldnt any buff spell cast with IoM still be suppressed within the amf? "Functions normally" doesnt seem to have any clear definition unless you houserule as you say.

While the two aren't mechanically identical, I agree that either both can keep their buffs (and buff their allies) or none of em. Imho, by RAW it seems as it should work for both. But let's see where the discussion will end.

I've spent much time on this topic while working on the build. While I'm somewhat confident in my interpretation, I would be lying if I would say that I'm 100% sure on this.. As said, lets see where the discussion goes..

_______________

Again thx for the feedback and let it coming^^

Did nobody tried to guess the magic item?
I had imagined that such a game breaking interaction would draw a bit more attention..
Or am I the only one who wasn't aware of it?

[Anthrowhale]

And what about the mentioned "Target:" line of the buff spell. Most buff spells target a creature. The "Target:" defines to what the buff spell's effect is attached in "(3d) space" (creature or object on the battle-map), or from where (square) it spreads.

This seems irrelevant to me.

The essential point is that Selective Spell does not alter the area of effect of AMF. AMF therefore suppresses all spells within its normal area of effect including personal buffs. When you realize that "unaffected" is not equivalent to "excluded" the conclusion is inevitable.

[Gruftzwerg]

This seems irrelevant to me.

The essential point is that Selective Spell does not alter the area of effect of AMF. AMF therefore suppresses all spells within its normal area of effect including personal buffs. When you realize that "unaffected" is not equivalent to "excluded" the conclusion is inevitable.

Sorry if I get repetitive, but I'm still unsure where you really see the problem here. ?

I'll try to explain my interpretation and kindly ask you to point out where you see the problems:

Example:

1. Buffs
We use buffs who "Target:" one or more creatures. If something wants to affect those buffs, it needs to affect the creature in the first place. The creature's body is effectively carrying the buff around.


2. Selective AMF

At the spellguard's option, that type of creature is either the only type affected by the spell or the only type unaffected by it.

We select Outsider as "type of creature" to be "unaffected" by our AMF

3. Unaffected = No Effect = No "Line of Effect"
As said before, the AMF can't affect the Outsiders, thus can't suppress any magic on them, since its LoE if broken. I'm not talking about Line of Sight here, nor about the LoE on the square where the creature is. Sole the "unaffected" creature itself. By excluding Outsiders, AMF has lost its LoE on the creatures and can't do anything against em. Imagine it as Full-Body-Suit that blocks the effect of the AMF. AMF can't penetrate those creatures to unfold its effect.

4. If AMF can't affect the creatures, it can't suppress the buffs
If it has no effect on those creatures, it can't suppress any buffs those creatures are carrying with their physical bodies.

(5) Sculpt Spell (just mentioning it for completeness' sake)
Normally AMF is a 10ft emanation, thus things like a Tower Shield that has been correctly set up would block it. By turning it into a 20ft spread it (40ft if we apply Widen) can make turns. Without this, the DM might argue that the "unaffected creatures" may provide cover from the emanation.

[Anthrowhale]

1. Buffs
We use buffs who "Target:" one or more creatures. If something wants to affect those buffs, it needs to affect the creature in the first place. The creature's body is effectively carrying the buff around.

Disagree. If a corporeal non-summoned creature walks into an AMF, all of the creatures buffs are suppressed despite the fact that an AMF has no effect on a corporeal non-summoned creature.

We select Outsider as "type of creature" to be "unaffected" by our AMF

Fine.

3. Unaffected = No Effect

It depends on what you mean. Unaffected = not affected. Not affected means there is no effect on the creature. This "no effect" applies just to the creature, not other things though.

No Effect = No "Line of Effect"

Disagree. Unaffected => no effect on creature. It has no impact on Line of Effect. As an example, if you are immune to fire then you are unaffected by a fireball, even though you in no way alter the area of effect of a fireball.

4. If AMF can't affect the creatures, it can't suppress the buffs

The rules do not state this.

(5) Sculpt Spell (just mentioning it for completeness' sake)
Normally AMF is a 10ft emanation, thus things like a Tower Shield that has been correctly set up would block it. By turning it into a 20ft spread it (40ft if we apply Widen) can make turns.

The range of AMF is 10', which constrains the results of Sculpt Spell to a 10' spread and makes Widen useless.

Without this, the DM might argue that the "unaffected creatures" may provide cover from the emanation.

That DM would be playing with house rules. Let's consider fireball again. If a human is standing next to a fire elemental and a fireball bursts on the other side of the fire elemental, the man is fully affected even though the fire elemental is unaffected.

Creatures do not provide total cover except in one special case that I'm aware of---an incorporeal creature inside a creature 2 or more size categories larger (according to the rules compendium).

[Gruftzwerg]

Disagree. If a corporeal non-summoned creature walks into an AMF, all of the creatures buffs are suppressed despite the fact that an AMF has no effect on a corporeal non-summoned creature.

Either an AMF has an effect on a creature (can suppress magical effects) or not. You are still limiting the effect of the AMF sole to incorporeal and summoned creatures. That is just an additional effect to the regular main effect to suppress any magic.

And to suppress magic on a creature it needs to effect the creature (the target of the buff spell).

It depends on what you mean. Unaffected = not affected. Not affected means there is no effect on the creature. This "no effect" applies just to the creature, not other things though.

That creature is the carrying the buff. It is the target of the buff. If the creature is excluded from the effect of AMF (selective spell). If it can't affect the creature, how is it gonna suppress any magic attached to the creature?

Disagree. Unaffected => no effect on creature. It has no impact on Line of Effect. As an example, if you are immune to fire then you are unaffected by a fireball, even though you in no way alter the area of effect of a fireball.

Either it has an effect on a creature or not. If not, then there is no Line of Effect. You can't have a creature with LoE and not effected at the same time. That like saying "something it functional and dysfunctional" at the same time.

That is not how it works. If you are immune to fire, you are still affected by the fireball spell. You are just immune to the dmg.

Yeah that is not how it works...
Fire Immunity doesn't provide you with spell immunity of any kind. You are immune to the fire dmg. Nothing more, nothing less. Nowhere does Fire Immunity grant any immunity to fire based spells in general.

The rules do not state this.

The rules do not need to explicitly state this. The same as the (regular) fireball spell doesn't state that goblins take dmg from it..
We know where the buff is placed by looking for the target(s).
We know that Selective Spell can exclude a creature type from AMF's effect.
You just need to sum up the pieces. AMF can't affect any buffs on "a creature it can't effect".

The range of AMF is 10', which constrains the results of Sculpt Spell to a 10' spread and makes Widen useless.

Sorry but what?

Normally AMF is a 10ft emanation (can't make turns around corners. Easy to get cover and break LoS & LoE.

Sculpt Spell allows to change it into a 20ft spread (can now make turns around corners, if it still has spread range left over; see the "spread" rules).

Widen extends this into a 40ft spread. A 40ft spread is much more likely to have enough spread range to get around corners.

That DM would be playing with house rules. Let's consider fireball again. If a human is standing next to a fire elemental and a fireball bursts on the other side of the fire elemental, the man is fully affected even though the fire elemental is unaffected.

Only if the fireball has enough spread range left to get that far (see the spread rules again).

Creatures do not provide total cover except in one special case that I'm aware of---an incorporeal creature inside a creature 2 or more size categories larger (according to the rules compendium).

And I don't rely on that for my interpretation.

Since Selective Spell AMF has no effect on the creature, it can't suppress any spells on the creature.
You are assuming that the spells are not on the creature without any rule base. But buff spells often have a creature as an explicit target(s), which is in conflict with your interpretation.

___________________________________

Thx for all the feedback.
Still hoping for some more feedback before I start the update process.

[Zarvistic]

Just to add on the topic of being affected or not, I think the last line of anti magic field would not make sense if creatures were not affected by being in it.

[Anthrowhale]

Either an AMF has an effect on a creature (can suppress magical effects) or not.

Needs citation. Effect on a creature is never stated as equivalent to suppression of magical effects on a creature as far as I am aware. Furthermore incorporeality isn't even inherently magical contradicting the equivalence.

<skipping stuff I've responded to before>

Normally AMF is a 10ft emanation (can't make turns around corners. Easy to get cover and break LoS & LoE.

Sculpt Spell allows to change it into a 20ft spread (can now make turns around corners, if it still has spread range left over; see the "spread" rules).

Widen extends this into a 40ft spread. A 40ft spread is much more likely to have enough spread range to get around corners.

The AMF description says:

Range: 10 ft

Sculpt Spell and Widen do nothing to change the range, so the normal rules for range apply. In particular, under Range it says:

If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

You are assuming that the spells are not on the creature without any rule base.

This is a mischaracterization---I have never asserted this.

Spells on a creature have the same location as the creature. Since AMF operates on all magic within the AoE, it suppresses those spells when the creature is within the AoE.

Just to add on the topic of being affected or not, I think the last line of anti magic field would not make sense if creatures were not affected by being in it.

The spell says:

The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs... Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected... These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field...Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

I believe the last sentence is referring to the nullification of creatures spell-like or supernatural abilities inline with the rest of the text about magic suppression.

Perhaps it's interesting that Selective Spell[outsiders unaffected] AMF is explicitly redundant with the text of AMF. That's strong evidence that Selective Spell[outsiders unaffected] AMF does precisely nothing.

[Gruftzwerg]

Just to add on the topic of being affected or not, I think the last line of anti magic field would not make sense if creatures were not affected by being in it.

I agree.
(more details, see below)

Needs citation. Effect on a creature is never stated as equivalent to suppression of magical effects on a creature as far as I am aware. Furthermore incorporeality isn't even inherently magical contradicting the equivalence.

Citation? That was a statement to point out that something can't be True and False at the same time.

A creature is either affected by a spell or not. I think we should be able to agree upon this (At least I hope so..)

And if the creature is unaffected by AMF, then AMF can't penetrate the creature to affect any buff spells that cover the same space as the creatures body. "Spread" doesn't work like X-rays.
Mechanically speaking, Selective Spell breaks the Line of Effect to the creature. Just like a solid object covering the entire body would do the same.

If Selective Spell can exclude you from the spread of a Fireball, why shouldn't it be able to exclude you from the spread of an AMF?

The AMF description says:

Sculpt Spell and Widen do nothing to change the range, so the normal rules for range apply. In particular, under Range it says:

Ah sorry.. my fault. I always forget about that rule. Because it's imho a highly dysfunctional rule.
"Personal Range" spells with effects extending from your body would like to have a word with that rule.. like some personal aura spells..

These are the first 2 spells I could find as examples within 5min of internet search. While using an alphabetical spell list (for personal spells), I didn't really need to look very far... 2 examples of spells starting with the letter A...

Range: Personal
...
Your aura of glory provides an additional +2 sacred bonus on allied saves against fear.
When the spell is cast, a number of allies equal to your paladin level are healed 1 hit point as if by a cure minor wounds spell.
These allies must be within 10 feet of you at the time.

Range: Personal
...
Whenever you charge or attack, you inspire fear in all creatures within 30 feet that have fewer Hit Dice than your caster level.

As you should be able to see, these spells sole work if you use "Range" sole as point of origin and not as limit for a spells effect. And (iirc) there are a lot of these examples where that rule gets totally ignored by a spells rule text (or the spell becomes dysfunctional. Your (DM's) decision).

So there is that. Imho it's clear that the authors have not been on the same page here..
Sorry for forgetting about it, but as said I see it as highly dysfunctional..
Dunno what to do here.. because RAW creates an entire list of dysfunctional spells.
I guess I will point out the issues with the rule here and suggest to always check this interaction with your DM as advice (in the build's update)...

This is a mischaracterization---I have never asserted this.

Spells on a creature have the same location as the creature. Since AMF operates on all magic within the AoE, it suppresses those spells when the creature is within the AoE.

Sorry if I implied that. But that was a logical assumption for me after what you have said so far. No ill intentions here.

But as said above: If the spell shares the same space (!= square) as the creature, and the creature is excluded, it can't penetrate the creature and thus can't affect the buff spells. "Spread" can't penetrate and Selective Spell breaks the Line of Effect to the creature (!not the square!). AFM can't reach the space the creatures body covers, thus can't reach the spell. No LoE simply said.

The spell says:

I believe the last sentence is referring to the nullification of creatures spell-like or supernatural abilities inline with the rest of the text about magic suppression.

Perhaps it's interesting that Selective Spell[outsiders unaffected] AMF is explicitly redundant with the text of AMF. That's strong evidence that Selective Spell[outsiders unaffected] AMF does precisely nothing.

This...

These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field

is imho referring to this..

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. A hasted creature, for example, is not hasted while inside the field, but the spell resumes functioning when the creature leaves the field. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

It's referring to AMF's ability to suppress any magical affects a creature has on it when it enters the area of effect. And this rule is for all creatures, not sole Outsiders and Incorporeal creatures. You always try to differentiate between these 2 effects AMF has. But Selective Spell doesn't care. It excludes from all effects of the spell. Not sole those that you pick out. (no offense here)

[Rebel7284]

I am not sure how helpful it is to have an in-depth rules argument on what is explicitly labeled as a TO built. There are lots of questionable rules that have been used in TO builds in the past, from particular readings of Battle Jump to WTF the writers of manipulate form were thinking. While I, too, am somewhat confused by the argument that creatures can somehow block line of effect to themselves and such, I will just assume that it works in this theoretical universe and move on.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am not sure how helpful it is to have an in-depth rules argument on what is explicitly labeled as a TO built. There are lots of questionable rules that have been used in TO builds in the past, from particular readings of Battle Jump to WTF the writers of manipulate form were thinking. While I, too, am somewhat confused by the argument that creatures can somehow block line of effect to themselves and such, I will just assume that it works in this theoretical universe and move on.

Creatures can block Line of Effect (not to themselves) against "Spread" & "Emanation" by default.
Think of Swallow Whole. A creature inside is unaffected by AMF. Neither Spread nor Emanation can affect a creature inside another creature.

It's just that Selective Spell can exclude creatures from the "effect" of a spell, thus breaking the "Line of Effect" to the creature by default. Since the buffs are on the "Target:" creature, AMF can't affect em. It doesn't spread/emanate into that space the creatures body takes in the 3d space (!not square!).

edit: I hope that you maybe still enjoyed the other parts of the build. I mean, the AMF is not the sole selling point here.

[Anthrowhale]

I am not sure how helpful it is to have an in-depth rules argument on what is explicitly labeled as a TO built. There are lots of questionable rules that have been used in TO builds in the past, from particular readings of Battle Jump to WTF the writers of manipulate form were thinking. While I, too, am somewhat confused by the argument that creatures can somehow block line of effect to themselves and such, I will just assume that it works in this theoretical universe and move on.

That's reasonable. I'll lay out the refined argument and then stop.

Looking at the actual text, AMF itself says that:

outsiders are ... unaffected

while Selective Spell[outsider, unaffected] AMF says:

(outsider) is ... the only type ... unaffected by (AMF)

Thus, selective spell[outsider,unaffected] AMF is precisely the same effect as AMF. And yet, despite the discussion of how outsiders are unaffected in the spell, the spell also says that:

(Outsiders) spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Thus the SLAs and SUs are subject to the AMF effect despite appearing directly in the creature block of a creature explicitly listed as unaffected by the spell itself. In particular:

...antimagic field suppresses any ... magical effect used within...

The step from there to:

(AMF) prevents the functioning of any ... spells within its confines.

applying to unaffected creatures with buffs is logical since the status of being an unaffected creature is irrelevant for the operation of the AMF effect on magical elements associated with (or a part of) a creature.

My understanding is that there is some inability to distinguish between "unaffected" and "excluded" since the latter keeps being used while the former is what is stated. It's as if Selective Spell's "unaffected" is being interpreted differently from AMF's "unaffected" despite being the same word used in the same way.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's reasonable. I'll lay out the refined argument and then stop.

Hey, no need to worry. I like to discuss the rules. I mean, imho that is one of the interesting aspects of TO builds. If one of my ideas don't work I would take it out. To be honest, I wanted to discuss the Selective Spell and AMF interaction for some while now. At the same time I was working on this build and thought I could just combine the discussion with the build. As said, the Selective AMF ain't the sole selling point of the build. So it wouldn't hurt that much if the rules would be against it.

It's just that I was also hoping for some more overall feedback (e.g. do you like the build; do you like the spelldancer/wyrm wizard combo; is this a good adaptation; or what do you think about trick for spelldancer with the ring.. and so on...). But yeah, you can force people to give the feedback you want...^^

But as said, I'm open for rule discussions.

Looking at the actual text, AMF itself says that:

while Selective Spell[outsider, unaffected] AMF says:

Thus, selective spell[outsider,unaffected] AMF is precisely the same effect as AMF. And yet, despite the discussion of how outsiders are unaffected in the spell, the spell also says that:

Thus the SLAs and SUs are subject to the AMF effect despite appearing directly in the creature block of a creature explicitly listed as unaffected by the spell itself. In particular:

The step from there to:

applying to unaffected creatures with buffs is logical since the status of being an unaffected creature is irrelevant for the operation of the AMF effect on magical elements associated with (or a part of) a creature.

My understanding is that there is some inability to distinguish between "unaffected" and "excluded" since the latter keeps being used while the former is what is stated. It's as if Selective Spell's "unaffected" is being interpreted differently from AMF's "unaffected" despite being the same word used in the same way.

I think I now get where (imho) your misinterpretation is.
You seem to have a difficult time to differentiate when the spell is referring to the main effect and when it refers to the sub-effect for outsiders, incorporeal and summons.


Have a look:

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

This paragraph tells you how "normal creatures" can enter the area and "aren't affected as summoned creatures of the same type/race". (here it talks about exceptions for the specific sub-effect)

The last sentence in the quote just reminds you that the main effect of AMF is still affecting the target creature. (here it refers to the general effects AMF has)
It is just a friendly reminder that the "aren't affected" is referring to the sub-effect for specific creatures and doesn't let the creature ignore the main effect of AMF.

But selective spell still ignores "all effects" that AMF has to offer. Not sole particular effects. Selective Spell effectively lets the creature operate as if the AMF wouldn't be there for him. And if the creature's body can't be affected, the same must be true for the buff spells that are placed on the creature's body. The AMF can't reach the buffs due to the broken LoE to the creature.

Thx for all your feedback. I appreciate it (even if it may not always look that way^^).
_________________________


I think I will start my update process towards this weekend, when I hopefully have more time for that.
I still hope for some more feedback until then. I still need to recheck the spells for possible bugs with "Spellguard" if they are really defensive spells (as said, I was constantly forgetting the limitation while looking for spells, since the spell search took me over a week of time..).

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry for the late update. It took me longer than expected, since the changes where a bit deeper than originally intended. Both Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster have high skill requirements and many of them are even cross class skills for the builds base. Thus I decided to drop Arcane Trickster in favor of Unseen Seer.

A list of the updated details:

1. Dropped Arcane Trickster completely and 2 lvls of Wyrm Wizard in favor for Unseen Seer

1a. Updated the build table: BAB, skills, saves and lvl progression slightly changed

2. Took " Susurrus of the City" (6th) as 2nd divination spell. A very handy spell. See spell list.

3. Added "Eyes of the Oracle" to the spell list. (can be persisted and chained: ready a standard action for free each turn)

4. Added an Infinite Time Stop combo at the bottom of the build. Now we have FULL PLOT ARMOR! ^^


I hope you all enjoy and like the updates.

I would appreciate any feedback regarding the changes or the build itself <3

Also thanks for you all for your interest, feedback and help so far =)

Thundercats Hoooooooooo