Upgrading the Kineticist [PF1]

[pabelfly]

*snip*

Rynjin showing why the only thing you should use Reddit for is hackneyed DnD memes and art.

[Aotrs Commander]

Let me preface this by saying I appreciate the responses and help given by the thread so far. However:

Rynjin showing why the only thing you should use Reddit for is hackneyed DnD memes and art.

That was rather rude to the people on the Pathfinder Reddit that made as much effort to respond to me as anyone here has, and in good faith. Especially given that the Pathfinder reddit consistently gives me some responses to my occasional threads, which is, I'm sorry to say, is more than I can expect to get from the Playground these days. (Case in-point, a few weeks ago when I posted up something on PF1-ising a couple of PF2 races on both places; there, I had a couple of helpful responses; here, nothing.)

So I will politely ask that everyone please keep their personal tribalisms and "us" verses "them" out of this thread and let's please keep the discourse civil and on the topic of the class in question. Thank you.

[Rynjin]

Personally, I don't have anything against Reddit; I use it myself. Someone earlier in the thread put it IMO more diplomatically (and accurately); the people on the RPG subReddits are singularly uninterested in optimization compared to other corners of the TTRPG net.

Running the math isn't really a concern for a lot of these guides, but it's important for this class specifically. Mark Seifter is known for having very tight mathematical limitations imposed on classes he designs. It's good to know what those are before they can be "broken".

[Bucky]

I don't think thats obvious at all. I'm not saying that it isn't optimal. It probably is. Most of my experience with kineticist is in going "oh, this seems like a kineticist role" then rereading the guides, building it, and realizing when I am done that it would be easier, stronger and more versatile as an alchemist with a discovery for whatever element I want, or a sorcerer or arcanist. But it certainly doesn't seem intuitive that you start out your day by eating a bunch of unhealable damage for an attack buff.

I am merely assuming that it is obvious that kineticists should use their class features. Assuming a kineticist uses Elemental Overflow while trying to DPS is about the same, in my view, as assuming a vanilla Fighter will use a weapon he has Weapon Training with. It won't always apply, but since it's in the class table and generally applicable a typical neophyte will use it.

Edit: Were you maybe confusing it with the Elemental Annihilator's Flurry of Devastation?

(E): No, I just overlooked "deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply)." entirely. The RAW is broken (in a bad way), preventing even the extra damage dice for hitting with multiple blasts; it does a maximum of 1d6+1 (+CON, maybe) regardless of the circumstances. At which point, yes, it's very bad.

However, the point that the free Infusion shouldn't be ignored still stands. Even a baseline Focused Blast (+1 to hit and penetrate SR, no caveats) significantly bumps the numbers.

[Gnaeus]

I am merely assuming that it is obvious that kineticists should use their class features. Assuming a kineticist uses Elemental Overflow while trying to DPS is about the same, in my view, as assuming a vanilla Fighter will use a weapon he has Weapon Training with. It won't always apply, but since it's in the class table and generally applicable a typical neophyte will use it.
.

That would be true if using weapon specialization costs damage. I would assume that most people avoid taking unhealable damage under non- emergency situations. I mean those 2 things (burn and weapon specialization) are absolutely not comparable at all. I would only ever assume that for a player running analysis of dpr, and honestly not even necessarily then. I would actually suspect that some tables would call it metagaming (you hurt yourself every morning to do extra damage? Why?)

[Darg]

I guess I'm misreading flurry of blasts. What's so bad about it? At level 7/9 you get 2 blasts +1 from haste. If you hit a singular target all 3 times you do 3 blasts of damage + 2d6 with a -2 penalty on the save/+2 CMB. At level 20 you get 5 blasts + 1 haste + up to 5d6 extra damage. It doesn’t prevent metakinesis as they don't directly improve damage, they just modify how you roll your die, nor composite blasts. So if you average hitting 50% of the time with 18 con, hasted at level 9 with an energy blast you'll have an 87.5% chance of doing at least 1d6+2, 75% chance of at least 3d6+4, and 50% chance of doing 5d6+6. A normal blast has a flat 50% chance of doing 5d6+2. Change that to a 25% chance to hit and the flurry has a 57% chance of 1 hit, 44% chance for 2, and 25% chance to hit 3 times. At 20 the damage gets a little better. If you hit all 6 times you'd do 11d6+12 vs the 10d6+2 as normal.

Basically you're paying 2 burn for potential for slightly more damage, reliably higher single target damage, potential for AoE application, increases the chance of a critical hit (in case you like critical hit effects), and increases the likelihood of your substance infusion working/landing.

Also, while it's not that great for AoE application of substance infusions, it would allow you to pick targets and only costs 2 burn vs other AoE infusions.

[Rynjin]

I guess I'm misreading flurry of blasts. What's so bad about it?

Re-read the bit I bolded again. It's easy to miss because everything about Kineticist is a barely-formatted brick of text, but the blasts are all calculated as if they're first level (so 1d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses) AND if you hit a single target with multiple they don't deal damage three times, they just add an extra 1d6 to the first blast (so making it 2-4d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses).

At level 11 you're dealing 6d6 base damage, plus all of the static bonuses Flurry adds. Flurry is a max 3d6 if you hit all attacks. So the BEST CASE is that you lose 3d6 damage for no reason.

It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.

[Bucky]

That would be true if using weapon specialization costs damage. I would assume that most people avoid taking unhealable damage under non- emergency situations. I mean those 2 things (burn and weapon specialization) are absolutely not comparable at all. I would only ever assume that for a player running analysis of dpr, and honestly not even necessarily then. I would actually suspect that some tables would call it metagaming (you hurt yourself every morning to do extra damage? Why?)

I am not outright assuming that the kineticist starts each day by spending enough burn to max out overflow. I'm assuming that the kineticist generally uses burn during the adventuring day, and knows it, and most of the combat happens after some burn has been spent. Internal Buffer means the first two (at the level 11) burn gets frontloaded to activate the overflow and spent later. Then, the third point of burn grants +2 CON from Elemental Overflow and thus costs no effective HP. Therefore, it seems reasonable to say that a level 11 kineticist who is willing to use his class features will probably have at least 3 burn for most of the day's combat.

If you have a severe aversion to burning yourself at all, you probably wouldn't have built the character as a kineticist in the first place.

It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.

This RAW is even more absurd than skipping Con bonuses. You can't empower it with Metakinesis. You get the Con bonus, because it's part of the basic blast damage, but without any Con increases from level-ups as a Kineticist. The additional hits don't actually contribute that 1d6 extra damage. If you have sneak attack dice, your sneak attack still triggers but does no extra damage. Your flurry with fire blasts does not do double damage to creatures that take double damage from fire vulnerability. And so forth. You can upgrade to 2d6 damage dice with a composite blast, however.

It's still useful as a carrier for substance infusions, even with its damage gutted.

[vasilidor]

I have to recommend the sphere system again.

It was mentioned once, but it seems that people just went past without noticing.
You can recreate the Warlock or make a Kineticist like character that actually functions without too much effort. It even has a class called the Elementalist.

I recently have been toying with characters that use the Nature Sphere in different capacities. Combine that with the Destruction Sphere and you have a character that functions like how the Kineticist is supposed to without much fuss.

There is also a Wiki site for it that has been OK'd by the creators.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

So you can check things out without spending money.

I do recommend buying a book if you like their stuff though.

[Darg]

Re-read the bit I bolded again. It's easy to miss because everything about Kineticist is a barely-formatted brick of text, but the blasts are all calculated as if they're first level (so 1d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses) AND if you hit a single target with multiple they don't deal damage three times, they just add an extra 1d6 to the first blast (so making it 2-4d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses).

At level 11 you're dealing 6d6 base damage, plus all of the static bonuses Flurry adds. Flurry is a max 3d6 if you hit all attacks. So the BEST CASE is that you lose 3d6 damage for no reason.

It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.

But that's not what it says though...

Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage;

No where does it say that it negates the damage of the individual blasts. Unless I'm really missing something. Maybe paizo mentioned it somewhere?

[Rynjin]

But that's not what it says though...



No where does it say that it negates the damage of the individual blasts. Unless I'm really missing something. Maybe paizo mentioned it somewhere?

The text immediately after that in the same sentence is: "bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply"

[Darg]

The text immediately after that in the same sentence is: "bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply"

At level 11, 4 hits would be 7d6+2 damage then, not 3d6 as you think. Getting hit with a blast is not a bonus or penalty so that damage is not negated by that statement. The only meaning I get out of that statement is that you wouldn't stack modifiers multiple times (the +1 that physical blasts get isn't a bonus so it would be 7d6+8 damage).

[Rynjin]

At level 11, 4 hits would be 7d6+2 damage then, not 3d6 as you think. Getting hit with a blast is not a bonus or penalty so that damage is not negated by that statement. The only meaning I get out of that statement is that you wouldn't stack modifiers multiple times (the +1 that physical blasts get isn't a bonus so it would be 7d6+8 damage).

I'm not sure where you're getting 7d6. It's 1d6 per hit, times 3 hits.

[Darg]

I'm not sure where you're getting 7d6. It's 1d6 per hit, times 3 hits.

add 1d6 for every hit beyond the first. 1d6 first hit. 1d6 +1d6 second hit. 1d6 + 1d6 third hit. 1d6 + 1d6 fourth hit. haste adds +1 blast.

[Rynjin]

add 1d6 for every hit beyond the first. 1d6 first hit. 1d6 +1d6 second hit. 1d6 + 1d6 third hit. 1d6 + 1d6 fourth hit. haste adds +1 blast.

That is...not how that works.

[Darg]

That is...not how that works.

Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st

Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply.

But it is what it says. It never negates the first bolded statement other than removing modifiers after the first blast. If it had the intention of not adding damage and instead just wanted to strip the modifiers, it would have been simpler to just remove "adds 1d6 points of damage." The quote adds a point of alternative meaning; hence the discussion.

[Rynjin]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

[RedWarlock]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

I can see both ways.

The one benefit I can see, the extra-D6s interpretation does put that effect more in line with damage expectations. Point in favor.

[Darg]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

That's what it says though. Scorching ray doesn't need to declare that each ray on the same target does its damage for the assumption to be so. What exactly makes flurry of blasts different? Do you have an example to show that your interpretation is the standard the rules use?

[Rynjin]

That's what it says though. Scorching ray doesn't need to declare that each ray on the same target does its damage for the assumption to be so. What exactly makes flurry of blasts different? Do you have an example to show that your interpretation is the standard the rules use?

Scorching Ray is a very good example, and it does indeed do exactly the thing you say it doesn't. Compare/contrast: "Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage" and "Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage".

Basically any effect that works as you think Flurry of Blasts should be is worded the way Scorching Ray is.

Fiery Shuriken: "Each shuriken requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals 1d8 points of fire damage"

Alternately, they have wording like this:

Battering Blast: "On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force."

This denoting that these are separate attacks each with the same damage.

"Adds 1d6 points of damage" is instead closer to the wording of something like the Flaming weapon property:

Flaming: deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage"

or Assault Synergy: "add +1d6 points of energy damage to an offensive spell he casts that round."

It's a 1-time damage, not worded as something like "each successive bolt deals an additional 1d6 damage". Just "adds 1d6 damage". The ability is meant to encourage you to strike multiple foes with your Flurry to make them all save against some kind of Substance Infusion.

The difference between "adds 1d6" and "deals an additional 1d6" (as per abilities like Sneak Attack) are huge.

[Darg]

Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st

Don't forget this part of the infusion. It is not negated by adding 1d6 damage on successive hits.

[Rynjin]

Don't forget this part of the infusion. It is not negated by adding 1d6 damage on successive hits.

I wish I could find the ability or spell I'm thinking of that works like Flurry, because it would make this a lot easier.

That said, the funniest part about this is that even in your best case scenario...it still deals less damage than just firing a single unmodified blast.

It also wouldn't deal 7d6 regardless. The 1d6 is at no point said to be cumulative, so it would theoretically be 5d6 (3d6 regular blasts, two additional d6 from all hits on the same target). It would not under any circumstances be a 1d6 blast followed by a 2d6 blast followed by a 3d6 blast, etc.

The exact details of how it works are largely irrelevant because under NO interpretation is it a damage increase over a regular blast.

[Bucky]

The exact details of how it works are largely irrelevant because under NO interpretation is it a damage increase over a regular blast.

A broad reading of "bonuses and penalties don't apply" would imply that the extra 1d6es completely ignore DR and energy resistance, even if the first hit does no damage. So a flurry of electric blasts can do up to 2d6 or 4d6 against a target with Electric Resistance 100 and DR 100/-

[Rynjin]

A funny thought, but Resistances/DR don't actually count as penalties to damage. Your damage comes out just fine, the recipient just subtracts less from their HP.

If you were in some kind of plane where Fire spells for example roll a -2 damage per die due to being very Cold-aligned or something, you'd ignore that.

[Aotrs Commander]

I have to recommend the sphere system again.

It was mentioned once, but it seems that people just went past without noticing.
You can recreate the Warlock or make a Kineticist like character that actually functions without too much effort. It even has a class called the Elementalist.

I recently have been toying with characters that use the Nature Sphere in different capacities. Combine that with the Destruction Sphere and you have a character that functions like how the Kineticist is supposed to without much fuss.

There is also a Wiki site for it that has been OK'd by the creators.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

So you can check things out without spending money.

I do recommend buying a book if you like their stuff though.

I noticed it, but I really don't want to add another subsystem that I woud have to a pass over. (ESPECIALLY if this pass, in addition to adding bloodrager, kineticist and arcanist, reworking mythic, tweaking the feat formatting and lists, FINALLY get around to changing all the odd-stat feat pre-reqs to evens (i.e. 13=>12), adding several more races, I do the threatened massive job of yanking in Path of War and thus having to rebalance the ENTIRITY of ToB). Before I actually start doing the campaign.

(And somehow trying to fit in quest-writing for Rolemaster for maybe October (summer session seems less likely... And I might AGAIN end up, as today, having to do another Emergancy Bakc-up Pathfinders quest - part four of the ad hoc Blackros Musuem is the Worst Museum Ever... adventure? Path?)

I might plumb it for ideas if I run short, but otherwise, it's just too much effort to put in. (As everything has to be given the once-over, since 3.Aotrs is slightly different to PF1. Not enough that anyone who was not a number-crunching addict like me couldn't gloss over in a game like a lot of the 3.5/PF1 differences, but I refer you to the first clause of that sentence...!)



Flurry of blasts is utter bollocks and I will absolutley not be using that anything like the way it was intended, assuming that the ability to make a full attack with blasts is not (as I did with warlock) inherently rolled into the default class features. Nevermind being crap, it is TERRIBLY worded, as shown by the confusion.



Tomorrow is slated for taking another crap at Aotrs!Mythic (since I am most of the way through that, and I want to try and get at least one sub-project done; also my mate is going in for a heart-op later this week, so I would like to have a mostly-completed thing to send him so he has potentially somewthign to read (if he feels up to it0 in the week or two if he can't make it down the club.

[vasilidor]

I just think it would be easier to use something that has already been built and tested rather than trying to fix something broken. I think it would be less work to toss the Kinny and read spheres.

But, otherwise I get you. That is a lot to juggle.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. So Monday I finished 3.Aotrs!Mythic and then started thinkign about this in anger.

First step was to import the already-existant rules for additional elements (Air/Earth/Water) as present in 3.Aotrs for my specific campaign world and make them, like, standard. This means I can standardise the physical elements (hereafter the material energies) to the other ones, which will make this much easier.

Despite requiring little actual rules writing, this did require me to go through all 300-pages of the 3.Aotrs spells documents... And 3.A powers... And Invocations... And master rules, feats and classes documents and do some reforming. Only some of which I could cheat and use find/replace with. So it took seven hours.

But that done (and having changed the format of invocations to have a proper level class so I can added the kineticist in), I can finally start.

First big issue, before I copy the warlock character block as the basis for the kineticist is what to CALL it. As noted, "kineticist" is already a psion subclass. Elementalist is a wizard archtype... "Bender" is a bit too on the nose. So I gave up on English ("elemental master" is ... eh...) I figured, since e have already some not-western class names (ninja, shugenja and wu jen and my own previous dip into a totally-not-inspired-by-Naruto adept/psionist sekkou) and becuase I have and am reading Chinese history, that I would go that end of the world. Also as a nod to Avatar (which I am also in the process of re-watching) and the martial arts within. (I considered "sifu" or "shifu," too.)

So after trying some translation, it occurred to me to look up what wu jen actually comes from, and turns out it basically doesn't it's kind on a nonsense thing that probbably ought to wu ren. (I am seriously considering changing that, but have a avoided it solely for the personal-meme-value of the abbreviation in my spells document beign WuJ, which is just nice to say.)

But during this latter exercise, someone suggested "Fangshi".

Fangshi (Chinese: 方士; pinyin: fāngshì; lit. 'method master') were Chinese technical specialists who flourished from the third century BCE to the fifth century CE. English translations of fangshi include alchemist, astrologer, diviner, exorcist, geomancer, doctor, magician, monk, mystic, necromancer, occultist, omenologist, physician, physiognomist, technician, technologist, thaumaturge, and wizard.

Yeah, I'mma take that actual real word from the China's first imperial period with a broad enough application doing so won't be any more off-meaning that what D&D itself does. That also sounds fracking cool.

So that's my first starting point, done...!

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. After a fair bit of effort, I have gotten as far as something resembling a first pass at this.

Still a lot of work to do regard to individual invocations, but I have completed my first pass on the class chassis.

I have not even tried to put it into a forum post, but instead have put it into a google doc; with the terrible formatting there, it's, like 23 pages (about twice or more what it is in my properly formatted documents), but this way meant I could copy/paste the text and retain most of the formatting without having to spend hours on fixing the formating and such.

There are headers, so feel free to skip the design notes and look over the actual classes. The former are there to explain my thinking.

Suggestions, obsevations or just throwing things at me because it's Clearly Too Munchkin or something are welcome. (I think they'd have to be made here, since I've never used google dics before, but there we go.) Again, I'll be crossposting this to the PF1 reddit too.

[Rynjin]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to houserule Cold Blast to be a Cold descriptor effect instead of a Water one, to bring it in line with other abilities for Counterspell.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to houserule Cold Blast to be a Cold descriptor effect instead of a Water one, to bring it in line with other abilities for Counterspell.

I did go and change that.



I have been working on the fangshi invocations for... ten hours straight? I took a semi-day off (since the UK is having two bank holiday Mondays and my working week is Tues to Sat) to try and plough through it. And at the point I decided I probably ought to stop, I had got the composite blasts done, and have only gotten up to the end of "D" on the infusions. (And all the utility talents to go; plus feats...)

That said, the composites took a lot of time, since I went through (with a table) to fill them all out, so that all six of the (1st party) elements except Aether have exactly eight composites (of their primary or secondary damage type) - aether has only seven (matching its one less simple blast).

(I'm not planning to add any of the 3PP elements, though I may well plumb some of their wild talents invocations to round out the Paizo ones, especially as I am straight dropping some of the crap ones). We have qUITE enough to be going on with)

In that process, there was also a lot of back and forth and redoing all of them as I made format adjustments, and simulataneously populating the spreadsheet for the summary (and page references), so it was slow going. Progress is being made, but this is proving to be just as much effort as I expected it to be last time around.



My current modus operandii, using the Warlock as an eyeball-level, is to reduce the burn costs (and transmute into internal buffer pool point costs) of infusions by about 2, give or take the opportunity cost of "one blast shape verses blast full attack."



(I'm VERY definitely having second thoughts about integrating Path of War with ToB this path now; one I've FINALLY finished with the Fangshi, I've still got the Bloodrager and Arcanist to port (though that should be MUCH quicker) and some faffing around with the feats list and then I can MAYBE get back to actual quest-writing/campaign preparation...)