Top Ten Most Stupider OOTS Moments

[CantRecoverOld]

So Serini's comments about "in your butt" and "confuses their divination spells" are way up there on the list of OOTS's most stupidest moments. And this is all a callback to when Roy made Haley search Draketooth's skeleton's dry, crumbly butt. Some other moments for consideration into the top ten list would be:
Naming Durkon the Vampire ("the corpse formerly known as Durkon")
When Roy realized that Ochul's beekeeping skills (or one of the other useless skills) was going to eventually save the party.
Elan thinking the OOTS would revisit the Western Continent and kill the evil people behind the evil empires ("Order Stickier!")

Has someone already done this list? I'm assuming so, and if so, please provide a link. If not, then I guess it starts here?

[Coppercloud]

It would help if you specified what exactly you are after. Is it the characters doing or saying something foolish? Is it times when you think a joke or plot point lacks subtility?

In any case, I personally haven't ever seen such a list, but to be honest I think it would be a pointless exercise to make one. Most of the time it is going to be a joke in a last panel and as Belkar of all people once pointed out, those shouldn't always be taken seriously. Similarly, after all his adventures, Elan should understand by now that nudity wouldn't turn him invisible. Yet as recently as the first strip of the current book, he alluded to this very personal misconception. That would be absolutely stupid of him, if we were to take everything at face value. But we don't have to, because we know this is a comic strip where characters will catch the idiot ball when it is funny, and behave quite competently otherwise.
My two cents.

[brian 333]

Roy using Knowledge: (Architecture) to defeat Thog by allowing Thog to pummel him and repeatedly slam him into the structural supports of the colosseum.

Vaarsuvius monomaniacally pursuing the means to communicate with Haley when, as any wizard knows, rest is a requirement for spellcasters, (even elves.)

Belkar mercilessly taunting the paladin who singlehandedly defeated his whole party.

Haley trusting Old Blind Pete. Then leaving behind all those sweet bows and arrows.

[Kamunami]

One that stuck out to me these past few years is when Durkon went to go negotiate on his own with Redcloak. Not that fact that he did it, I actually think it's a fantastic bit of character writing that he would ask Roy if he thinks it's a good idea, get a solid "No", and then after thinking more deeply on it for a while just go do it anyway. It shows just how thoroughly he thinks through his actions. What gets me is that despite mulling it over for long enough to decide he has to do it, once he gets there his up front explanation is SO bad that it feels like he didn't actually bother thinking at all about what he was going to say. It feels like a blatant contradiction and doesn't make any sense to me.

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius monomaniacally pursuing the means to communicate with Haley when, as any wizard knows, rest is a requirement for spellcasters, (even elves.)

Vaarsuvius explicitly acknowledges this and does rest.

[Metastachydium]

Belkar mercilessly taunting the paladin who singlehandedly defeated his whole party.

Seeing how he then proceeded to singlehandedly defeat said paladin and that getting killed was part of his (admittedly not very good) plan, that might not have been as dumb as you make it sound like.

Haley trusting Old Blind Pete.

He was her best shot [snickers] as the guy who had reason to hate Bozzok and Crystal more than she did. It's not like she was swimming in options.

Then leaving behind all those sweet bows and arrows.

Well, he didn't have time to loot the room properly mid-battle and had to leave post-haste when the Order reunited none too long afterwards. And most of those apparently weren't of much use to her anyhow (except the Axiomatic bow; that one'd have been actively detrimental on her performance).

[woweedd]

Roy using Knowledge: (Architecture) to defeat Thog by allowing Thog to pummel him and repeatedly slam him into the structural supports of the colosseum.

He kinda had to. The idea there, I think, is that Thog is using the Dungeon Crasher alternate class feature (from a book partially wriiten by one Rich Burlew). Quote:

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any)

In other words, if Roy had dodged, then, by the rules, Thog's bull rushing wouldn't damage the pillars.

[ZhonLord]

Belkar, a gourmet chef, directly chugs a cooking spice instead of using it in his recipes. It's heartbreaking! If he'd used it properly he could have gotten a good twenty meals or more out of that single jar!

[Ionathus]

If you're asking me which joke fell the most flat for me, it's probably "Hell no, Thor won't go" from midway through Utterly Dwarfed. It's hard to name others: almost all of OotS's jokes are good. High quality ratio.

If you're asking me what in-universe moment felt the silliest or the dumbest, while still being funny and selling to me as a reader, it's the exquisite bonus page from Utterly Dwarfed where Elan uses his illusion magic during the frost giants fight to conjure a second "airship."

Okay, I feel like I should point out that even though that worked--
No, no, that was dumb, even for us.

One that stuck out to me these past few years is when Durkon went to go negotiate on his own with Redcloak. Not that fact that he did it, I actually think it's a fantastic bit of character writing that he would ask Roy if he thinks it's a good idea, get a solid "No", and then after thinking more deeply on it for a while just go do it anyway. It shows just how thoroughly he thinks through his actions. What gets me is that despite mulling it over for long enough to decide he has to do it, once he gets there his up front explanation is SO bad that it feels like he didn't actually bother thinking at all about what he was going to say. It feels like a blatant contradiction and doesn't make any sense to me.

No plan, not even a negotiating plan, survives first contact with the "enemy." Particularly when Durkon doesn't even know why Redcloak is doing what he's doing, which means he doesn't know what approach will appeal the most to Redcloak.

Durkon isn't a skilled diplomat. He says he's got a "low charisma modifier" during the Order's first fight with Miko. I saw that low Charisma naturally coming out throughout this negotiation with Redcloak, where Durkon doesn't really have the force of personality or people skills to fully steer the conversation. But Durkon is the only one with the guts and the power level and the divine mandate to be meeting with Redcloak, so he gives it his best shot. And I think Durkon does remarkably well for the situation despite his lack of eloquence.

It's one of the things I like about OotS so much. The characters all have very distinct voices: even ignoring accents, Durkon uses different language and logic than Roy, who's different from Haley, who's different from Vaarsuvius, who's different from Redcloak, etc. etc. I feel like some authors (in particular a few other webcomic artists) don't have that commitment to distinct character voice, so when the Big Talky Bits come out, they default to a single voice because it's the easiest way to get big concepts and exposition out there. But I've always felt like OotS does an awesome job of keeping each character's voice unique, even when they're doing big complex speeches. And I think Durkon muddling his way through this mini-Godsmoot (Godsmote?) is a great example of that.

[Emberlily]

focusing on what important moments have been particularly silly or farcical seems like a much more enjoyable thread than "jokes or moments that didn't land for me"

[Metastachydium]

If you're asking me what in-universe moment felt the silliest or the dumbest, while still being funny and selling to me as a reader, it's the exquisite bonus page from Utterly Dwarfed where Elan uses his illusion magic during the frost giants fight to conjure a second "airship."

[DIES.] Oh, man. Did that… Did that really happen?

I feel like some authors (in particular a few other webcomic artists) don't have that commitment to distinct character voice, so when the Big Talky Bits come out, they default to a single voice

I mean, that looks good on old school epic poetry, but otherwise I tend to agree.

[Ionathus]

[DIES.] Oh, man. Did that… Did that really happen?

It did, and it was amazing. I recommend the book compilations to anybody with the disposable income, as Rich's insights and commentary are well worth the price. But (not to oversell it) the bonus strips in UD are particularly worth it, especially this one. Might be the hardest I've ever cackled at an OotS strip.

[Precure]

Why was it stupid to create an illusion of second airship?

[pearl jam]

have you seen the strip in question?

it's not so much the idea as the execution. lol

[ZhonLord]

Tarquin was very stupid here. One of his biggest moments of weakness was that he kept trying to pull Nale back into the fold, even going so far as to call Nale's desire to seek a different path a "rebellious" phase and kept trying to get him to be a functioning member of Team Desert Tyrants.

This was the moment that convinced me how limited and deluded Tarkie was as a villain; if he was incapable of seeing that his son operated under a different guiding philosophy until it was directly shouted in his face, then there were a lot of other things he'd inherently fail to see as well.


EDIT: apologies if I'm thinking of the wrong kind of stupid for what this thread was intended for.

[MReav]

Old Blind Pete thinking it was a good idea to return to his home in the middle of a Guild operation while several hostiles were running around and would have very good reasons to want to kill him.

At least establish he didn't trust the Guild to not rob him.

[drazen]

Tarquin was very stupid here. One of his biggest moments of weakness was that he kept trying to pull Nale back into the fold, even going so far as to call Nale's desire to seek a different path a "rebellious" phase and kept trying to get him to be a functioning member of Team Desert Tyrants.

This was the moment that convinced me how limited and deluded Tarkie was as a villain; if he was incapable of seeing that his son operated under a different guiding philosophy until it was directly shouted in his face, then there were a lot of other things he'd inherently fail to see as well.


EDIT: apologies if I'm thinking of the wrong kind of stupid for what this thread was intended for.

Not sure if he misunderstood or just didn't care, as his whole shtick was "subtly manipulating" people to do what HE wanted.

[Metastachydium]

Not sure if he misunderstood or just didn't care, as his whole shtick was "subtly manipulating" people to do what HE wanted.

Yup. If Nale goes along, he just reasserted control over Nale, which is important to him, personally, for ****ed up reasons. If Nale doesn't go along, Nale dies and Laurin, a far more valuable asset, will be happy which is good for future cooperation purposes. Let's not forget that he's a bad guy, shall we?

[Precure]

Eh, Nale doomed himself the moment he killed Malack, Tarquin's original plans for him wouldn't be accepted by the other members anymore.

[ZargofLaRoche]

Vaarsuvius explicitly acknowledges this and does rest[/URL].

Indeed. One of the most poignant moments of the book when you find out why V has decided that trancing has become “inefficient” in their pursuits

[BloodSquirrel]

Eh, Nale doomed himself the moment he killed Malack, Tarquin's original plans for him wouldn't be accepted by the other members anymore.

I disagree. Nale could have easily framed things as "Look, you put me in that situation, and Malack made it pretty clear that he was going to kill me if he had the chance. It was me or him. How else did you think that was going to end?"

It might have been contentious, but it wasn't hopeless. He would have had a real point there- once the mission was over, Malack could have killed him at any moment. Nale couldn't have waited for Malack to make the first move, since Malack would have had a major advantage in a straight-up fight. Nale was acting prudently to protect himself.

But then Nale had to make it clear that he wasn't going to play ball in any way that actually lead to a path out for him. He wasn't going to even let Tarquin spin it as self-defense on Nale's part; he had to give his dad the big F-you, even when his Dad was actively trying to figure out a way to make things work. He wasn't even smart enough to go along with Tarquin's plans until he had an opportunity to run away. If he'd waited just a few minutes he might have been able to escape in the chaos that was about the ensue.

Edit: Actually, Nale didn't even have to tell Tarquin that Malack was dead at that point. He went out of his way to do it, just to gloat about it.

Not sure if he misunderstood or just didn't care, as his whole shtick was "subtly manipulating" people to do what HE wanted.

I think it was a last-ditched effort on his part. He definitely miscalculated, but parents tend to have weak spots for that sort of thing when it comes to their kids. A lot of real-world parents would still be in denial that Nale was evil. Tarquin was just being overly optimistic about how prudent Nale would be when it was overwhelmingly in his own interest to be so. Remember, the alternative would have been to kill Nale back when he first spotted him in his palace. Tarquin tried to give him the only out that he could, but Nale just wouldn't take it, even to save his own life.

That says a lot more about how far gone Nale is than how deluded Tarquin was.

[Jasdoif]

I think it was a last-ditched effort on his part. He definitely miscalculated, but parents tend to have weak spots for that sort of thing when it comes to their kids. A lot of real-world parents would still be in denial that Nale was evil. Tarquin was just being overly optimistic about how prudent Nale would be when it was overwhelmingly in his own interest to be so. Remember, the alternative would have been to kill Nale back when he first spotted him in his palace. Tarquin tried to give him the only out that he could, but Nale just wouldn't take it, even to save his own life.

That says a lot more about how far gone Nale is than how deluded Tarquin was.

I think "childish" is the word to describe this scenario. We saw the typically-juvenile "I'm not a kid anymore, stop trying to run my life" right there, complete with the typically-juvenile failure to comprehend how his father had been supporting him his entire life. And Tarquin accepted it, that sigh was him seeing Nale as an independent adult. A somewhat mature parent would have seen this as a redefinition of their relationship, but Tarquin saw this as a severing and jumped straight to estrangement.

[Ionathus]

I really liked Nale's death - it felt honest to his own ego and need to feel superior, and it was a great demonstration of how Tarquin sees and reacts to the world. The moment he realized that Nale wasn't his to play with anymore, Tarquin got rid of him. It shows how twisted he is inside, and it's a great setup for everything he tries to do to Elan in that next escape sequence: "You wanna end up like Nale?"

[littlebum2002]

I think "childish" is the word to describe this scenario. We saw the typically-juvenile "I'm not a kid anymore, stop trying to run my life" right there, complete with the typically-juvenile failure to comprehend how his father had been supporting him his entire life. And Tarquin accepted it, that sigh was him seeing Nale as an independent adult. A somewhat mature parent would have seen this as a redefinition of their relationship, but Tarquin saw this as a severing and jumped straight to estrangement.

That's not how I read it. I read it as "you killed my best friend, and the only thing keeping me from killing you is that your my son. If you no longer want the advantages of being my son, then I have to treat you like I would treat anyone who just killed my best friend"

[Jasdoif]

I think "childish" is the word to describe this scenario. We saw the typically-juvenile "I'm not a kid anymore, stop trying to run my life" right there, complete with the typically-juvenile failure to comprehend how his father had been supporting him his entire life. And Tarquin accepted it, that sigh was him seeing Nale as an independent adult. A somewhat mature parent would have seen this as a redefinition of their relationship, but Tarquin saw this as a severing and jumped straight to estrangement.

That's not how I read it. I read it as "you killed my best friend, and the only thing keeping me from killing you is that your my son. If you no longer want the advantages of being my son, then I have to treat you like I would treat anyone who just killed my best friend"

I don't see a conflict....Obviously Nale and Tarquin saw their relationship quite differently.

[Ionathus]

That's not how I read it. I read it as "you killed my best friend, and the only thing keeping me from killing you is that your my son. If you no longer want the advantages of being my son, then I have to treat you like I would treat anyone who just killed my best friend"

Not to turn "Tarquin is deluded about his own behavior" into a meme, but...

The way you read it is the way Tarquin phrased it in the comic itself. And I do believe it, to an extent. IMO Malack's death is what truly sets Tarquin spiraling due to loss of control. So he definitely felt that, and as an Evil character would have no compunctions about taking revenge for that loss. Nale was foolish for killing his Evil dad's best friend and then provoking him while vulnerable.

But at the same time, "you killed my best friend, and you don't want my protection anymore..." is a plausibly-rational spin that Tarquin can put on the situation to make himself seem more in control than he actually is. The way I see it, Tarquin murdered Nale in cold blood because he realized Nale could no longer be manipulated and was therefore useless to him. He discarded his own son like a child would discard a broken toy. That doesn't square with Tarquin's self-image, because he wants to be rational and cool and badass and in-control, and people like that don't murder their own children for petty reasons (in front of their Good identical twin who they still want to work with, by the way).

But Nale dying because he made a tactical error and forgot he was at Tarquin's mercy? Well, that puts the failure on Nale, and spins Tarquin as a rational and intelligent person who's simply reacting logically to an attack on his friend. It's a classic abuser move: cast yourself as the logical one, and when you lash out at the people around you, you can justify it as being because they didn't follow your very simple and very rational rules, and therefore any disproportionate punishment you inflict on them is their fault.

So I think it can be both reasons, but Tarquin subconsciously picked the reason that makes him look more in control.

[gbaji]

I don't see a conflict....Obviously Nale and Tarquin saw their relationship quite differently.

Not conflict so much as a difference in focus. Both are correct. Nale, by rejecting his fathers control, also rejected his protection. As you stated, a mature parent should be able to manage both and be able to treat Nale as his own person while also caring about his wellbeing. But Tarquin is so caught up in appearances and rules and protocols, that once Nale falls out of that category, he must be put into another. Which is "resonsible adult who killed my best friend and important member of my team and therefore must die".

One of the things that bears mentioning is that while Tarquin and his "strange" way of looking at the world made him a terrible parent (and spouse!), those same ways also enabled his team to stick together very successfully for a couple decades and gain control of most of the continent. So, crazy as it seems sometimes, in a "self aware stick figure parody" world, Tarquin's methods actually worked. Quite well, in fact. One can assume that his teammates more or less went along with his oddities, precisely because they did work out. It's unclear exactly what would have happened if he had actually convinced Nale to join the team, but the implication is that the rest of the members would have stewed about it for a while, but then would have to accept it. The alternative would be causing the entire system they've put in place to collapse.

The "rules" suck, but they've learned that if they follow them, they are successful. So they do. I suppose they could have just eliminated Tarquin, but I suspect that if they did do that, the rest of their rules and protocols would go out the window, none of them would be able to trust the others, and they'd likely go their separate ways. As crazy as he was (and we can question whether he really was the "leader" of the VL), it was pretty apparent that his nutty way of doing things was one thing that they all did accept and follow. Complete with strange rationalizations and justifications for things so as to "fit" into those rules. He was able to use them to protect Nale from Malack for years after Nale killed Malack's children. So clearly those rules were a very strong thing for the team.

Nale just didn't realize how powerful that was for the VL, nor that only Tarquin's application of those rules was what was keeping him alive. Once he rejected them entirely, and Tarquin ceased protecting him, Nale was dead. Tarquin just did it quick and clean.

[brian 333]

Nale was punished for the crime of not being Tarquin's fashion accessory.

That's it. It goes no deeper than that.

[Jasdoif]

Not conflict so much as a difference in focus. Both are correct. Nale, by rejecting his fathers control, also rejected his protection. As you stated, a mature parent should be able to manage both and be able to treat Nale as his own person while also caring about his wellbeing. But Tarquin is so caught up in appearances and rules and protocols, that once Nale falls out of that category, he must be put into another. Which is "resonsible adult who killed my best friend and important member of my team and therefore must die".

One of the things that bears mentioning is that while Tarquin and his "strange" way of looking at the world made him a terrible parent (and spouse!), those same ways also enabled his team to stick together very successfully for a couple decades and gain control of most of the continent. So, crazy as it seems sometimes, in a "self aware stick figure parody" world, Tarquin's methods actually worked. Quite well, in fact. One can assume that his teammates more or less went along with his oddities, precisely because they did work out. It's unclear exactly what would have happened if he had actually convinced Nale to join the team, but the implication is that the rest of the members would have stewed about it for a while, but then would have to accept it. The alternative would be causing the entire system they've put in place to collapse.

The "rules" suck, but they've learned that if they follow them, they are successful. So they do. I suppose they could have just eliminated Tarquin, but I suspect that if they did do that, the rest of their rules and protocols would go out the window, none of them would be able to trust the others, and they'd likely go their separate ways. As crazy as he was (and we can question whether he really was the "leader" of the VL), it was pretty apparent that his nutty way of doing things was one thing that they all did accept and follow. Complete with strange rationalizations and justifications for things so as to "fit" into those rules. He was able to use them to protect Nale from Malack for years after Nale killed Malack's children. So clearly those rules were a very strong thing for the team.

Since we're here....

Just out of curiosity, who was it that told the story about how Tarquin was a tactical genius and the mastermind behind his party's plot? Was it…Tarquin?

If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you. I gave you the evidence to see what he was, you just chose to believe his spin instead and then criticize me for not living up to it. The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history. But look at the way Laurin and Miron talk to him; does that sound like people who think he's the mastermind that got them to where they are? Or does it sound like how people talk to Elan? Why do you think that strip was even in there, except to reveal that Tarquin's version of his place in the group had been inflated by Tarquin?

Tarquin provides insight into narrative roles that translates to actual concrete power in the OOTS world. You can make plans based on those things and they work. Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make. He has since revised that into believing that he is their leader and master strategist. He is, in a very real way, the Elan of his team, only his team's goal is conquer everything instead of save the world.

There's certainly been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin has even a passing understanding of valid military strategy, or political strategy, or personal relationships. What he understands are stories, and it just so happens that he was born into a world where that actually can help you win…for a while.

---

Nale just didn't realize how powerful that was for the VL, nor that only Tarquin's application of those rules was what was keeping him alive. Once he rejected them entirely, and Tarquin ceased protecting him, Nale was dead. Tarquin just did it quick and clean.

This is, in fact, the main reason I focused on the relationship: Those things have been surrounding Nale since before his brain produced its first conscious thought. They're axioms to Nale's mind, their existence he assumes and accepts without question. Nale's "not thinking about the consequences" here was a bit more literal than usual.

[Peelee]

Nale was punished for the crime of not being Tarquin's fashion accessory.

That's it. It goes no deeper than that.

Yeah, this is the most succinct way to put it. Tarquin cares about Tarquin and how things ("things" include people for Tarquin) relate to Tarquin. It really is that simple.