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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Brian ran a session of his game yesterday.

    I just want to say, all of this issues about miscommunication and players doing stupid things and then whining about the game being to hard are all present, and indeed so much worse, when someone who isn't used to it is running the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Bookmarks persist, at least in all the pdf software I've seen. If you're exporting out a Word/OpenOffice doc I'm not sure but wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a way.

    Edit: still reading... went "ewww" at a beastiary entry, it was the nymph... do your players ever make use of cooperative casting?...monsters don't have derives stats listed, yeah its another line and if you don't need it its ok for your use... defenitely needs a "mini books" version with items, monsters, spells, setting split out... glyph is spell grenades? or quick & dirty potions?... got spare colons in the feats of strength table...
    Yes, I am exporting out of office, so I need to find some way to preserve it.

    As for the edit: What exactly made you say ewww?
    No, the players have never really had the opportunity as there has never really been overlap with schools they use.
    By derived stats what exactly do you mean? Like a full write-up for what the finished stats on a monster would be? I plan to do that eventually as a supplement, but it would be almost as long as the main book.
    I plan on having a rules only SRD. I generally print spell books separately and maneuvers out separately for the players who use them.
    Glyph is very versatile, it can be used as a trap or a scroll.
    Thanks for pointing out the colons!
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yes, I am exporting out of office, so I need to find some way to preserve it.
    MS Office is evil jank poop. /opinion
    As for the edit: What exactly made you say ewww?
    !
    Um, proportions. They're... its like a weird reverse barbie doll mutant. It might just being hitting an 'uncanny valley' effect for me.
    Last edited by Telok; 2023-05-01 at 11:14 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    MS Office is evil jank poop. /opinion
    I agree, but its served me well enough so far and I don't have the time or incentive to learn a new program at this point.

    I plan on having the whole thing redone in Indesign or the like once editing / playtesting is finished and I am on my way to finalizing the layout.

    Adding bookmarks is super simple; still need to figure out how to copy them between versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Um, proportions. They're... its like a weird reverse barbie doll mutant. It might just being hitting an 'uncanny valley' effect for me.
    Ok. I wasn't sure if it was the art or the description.

    Yeah, I had the same reaction. It's on my list of art to get redone if I have the time and money.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Questions.
    Order of operations in taking traits?
    Prodigy & sagaciius apply to occult skills?
    Can you choise occult skills from your Int or does that happen after taking enlightened?
    Traits table: meaning of he star in the ranks column?

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    @ Quertus:

    Here is a damage assessment of my PCs as you requested. These are the percent chance of a given attack injuring a human of various skill levels wearing mail and a helmet without a shield; my system doesn't use "HP" like D&D, but rather tracks injuries, and 2 injuries generally take someone out of a fight.

    Amateur Journeyman Adept Expert Master Paragon
    Kumiko .45 .33 .22 .14 .08 .03
    Feurlina .33 .22 .14 .05 .03 .01
    Miles .48 .35 .24 .15 .08 .03
    Miles -2 .42 .3 .2 .12 .06 .02
    Miles -4 .36 .25 .16 .09 .04 .01
    Miles -6 .3 .2 .12 .06 .02 .01
    Miles -8 .24 .15 .08 .03 .01 -
    Miles -12 .12 .05 .02 .01 - -
    Flossie .64 .49 .36 .25 .16 .09
    Flossie -2 .56 .42 .3 .2 .12 .06
    Flossie -4 .48 .35 .24 .15 .08 .03
    Flossie -6 .4 .28 .18 .1 .04 .01
    Flossie -8 .32 .21 .12 .05 .01 -
    Flossie -12.16 .07 .03 .01 - -

    -2 For shooting out of melee or into melee with a large target
    -4 For shooting into melee with medium target or with a large target and blocked LoS
    -6 For shooting into melee with a small target
    -8 For shooting into melee with a medium target and blocked LoS
    -12 For shooting into melee with a small target and blocked Los

    Close combat will often be getting a small bonus for flanking or a small penalty for using a maneuver.
    Miles will often be getting a small bonus from aiming or taking a reckless shot, but has to reload every six turns.
    Flossie can engage in melee to ignore the above accuracy penalties, but is unlikely to do so due to lack of defenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Questions.
    Order of operations in taking traits?
    Prodigy & sagaciius apply to occult skills?
    Can you choise occult skills from your Int or does that happen after taking enlightened?
    Traits table: meaning of he star in the ranks column?
    You can select traits in whatever order you like. The numerical effects are applied in whatever order is most advantageous.

    Occult skills are skills, traits apply to them normally and you can train in them even if you aren't enlightened.

    There should be a footnote to the table explaining *; in short it means you can take as many ranks as you want so long as you don't take yourself above an effective 10 or below an effective one in the key attribute.

    Thanks for taking the time to look this deeply!
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2023-05-03 at 04:26 PM.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    .. so is armor pretty good, or are most of them.. kinda bad at their chosen combat method? I would expect better than 50/50 odds of hitting an 'amateur' target for anybody who is meant to be good at some form of fighting, and they're mostly less than that.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Ok, first test character. Post then I'll look at Bob's char. Think on it and maybe post a bit more tonight.

    Spoiler
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    attributes: agility 5, charisma 5, dexterity 4, endurance 5, intelligence 5, perception 3, strength 3, willpower 10
    cost: 80/100

    aspects/figured stats: animus 1, chakras 1, concentration(focus) 9, destiny(rerolls) 5, dodge(10+dodge=to-be-hit) 11, encumbrance 4, initiative 7, mana(spells) 11, wealth(debits) 10, might(cbt maneuvers) 4, resilience(vs dmg) 5+armor & helm=12(+4/+10), speed = 4, tenacity(vs disabled by dmg) 10, vitality(wounds) 5

    Skills: @ -5 w/out tool out trait
    primary skills: mysticism & necromancy (enlightenment+5+grimoire), resolve (will 5+5+obstinate)
    secondary skills: business (cha 5+3), expression (cha 5+3), insight (per 3+3), fortitude (end 5+3)

    flaws: weak arm (left = str 1), harsh voice (performance -5), shy (leadership -5), color blind (yellow/orange)
    cost: -6+80=74

    traits: unbalanced strength (str @ -1 might & +1 encumbrance), unbalanced dexterity (dex @ -1 melee & +1 marksman), unbalanced willpower (will @ -1 concentration & +1 mana), unbalanced agility (agl @ -1 speed & +1 dodge)

    merits: obstinate, dragon blooded (on success of resolve vs most creature targeted spells gain the mana the opponent spent on the spell), enlightened (+10 enlightenment), rich (+2 quality grimoire & +2 wealth)
    cost: 24+74=98+2=100

    gear: heavy armor & helm (+7(+4/+10) resilience, 3 encumbrance, value , +5 alertness, -6 acrobat, -6 athletic, -6 stealth), pistol (+1 accuracy, +6 damage, value 6, ammo 6, TODO=sawed off & scatter), grimoire (+2 quality mysticism), grimoire (necromancy), furnished home in <city>, clothing, 1 week food & drink, 1 week lamp oil, 1 week matches, coin purse (8 coins), rucksack, diary & pencil, riding horse

    Edit: forgot we need seer's crystals, maybe trade out the horse and downgrade to medium armor for weight? Unsure.

    fighty:
    punch, atk +8, dmg +4
    pistol (odd/even fire/normal ammo), atk +6, dmg +2 & on fire/+6, short range 3 paces, long range ???

    magic:
    mysticism +17, necromancy +13, others +10 (-5 for no grimoire?)

    notable spells:
    * Last breath, +17 vs 20, refund mana on successful cast, target corpse, create "zen tonics" (mana) = mana at death & "serendipity tonics" (destiny) = destiny at death.
    * Sacrifice, +17 vs 20, refund mana on successful cast, target dying person & kill, gain periapt = 1 mana for any spell TN 20 or lower.
    * Absorb, +13 vs 20, refund mana on successful cast, target any being, vamp off 1 destiny or 1 mana (need a caster victim for spell usable mana)
    * Anti-magic shell, +17 vs 25, area, null zone, prismatic = that spell school & demiurges only
    * Bind Soul = hilarity, need to carry punch & judy puppets for sick puppy action
    * Cantrip of Sun, +17 vs 10, refund mana on 13+, roll 2 take best next resolve or anti-magic roll
    * Deep Water, +17 vs 20, area with water, temporary all water in area is holy water
    * Mana bolt, +17 vs DODGE, any target, wound unless resolve save vs 20 (if I understand correctly)
    * Blood Ritual +13 vs 20, target being with blood, target tests vs damage & if fail caster vamp-heals 1 wound
    * Cantrip of the grave, +13 vs 10, refund mana on roll 17+, roll 2 take best next damage roll
    * Chill, +13 vs 15, target any, target resolve vs test for cold damage
    * necromancy TN 35 auto-kill spell
    * Find weakness, +13 vs 10, target anything, refund mana on roll 17+, know biggest vulnerability
    * Flensing, +13 vs 20, target person or corpse, target test fortitude vs 20 or gains DYING condition (combo Sacrifice)
    * necro wall of ice spell
    * fake death + invis to thrall undead spell
    * 24 hour block of ice someone
    * cold based damage shield
    * void damage magic missile
    * destroy all oxygen in area, auto suffocation tests

    You can Bane and reverse a cantrip on people for no increase in target number. For a +10 you can increase the cantrip dice, roll 3 & take best. +10 to cantrip a complex task & +20 to cantrip a laborious task, that's worth dumping a lot of end-of-mission mana into making something. Unsure of glimmer, need to find out 'dedication' it doesn't seem keyworded. Ah, cantrips take up chakras, missed that on the first two reads but persist could be nice. Hey, touch metamagic, +3 target number to safe-cast in melee and make the spell an unarmed attack roll.

    TODOs: get a sawed off & scatter pistol + training in marksman then go full incendiary ammo for that "so you though you'd melee the caster eh?", get the business trait if we want to buy lots of stuff, get more +encumberance, train lots of magic skills, get perception up to increase our ranges for guns/magic if it seems we need to.


    Well, I still have some uncertainty about how resisting magic & dealing/taking damage work but those are minor details (like of it's cast vs dodge do they get to try to dodge as well?). Plus it's unclear if skills that lack tools take the -5 'no tool' penalty if they don't have the trait that's listed under the tool column, so I don't know if the character has +10 or +15 to resolve tests. Are grimoires universal or per occult skill? Occasional examples would be nice. Um, this seems like a fairly decent armored mage caster template with +5 or +10 to cast all spells (I think). I'm also not certain, but it sounds like the starting mission mana/destiny/concentration is a count and not a cap, thus you can exceed that number during the mission.

    Since mana can be used to add to rolls it seems that a target number 35 spell is potentially doable even with only a +13. This character would need to siphon mana off the dead/dying to prep for it but bane+cantrip to negative a target's resist roll then destiny(reroll) + casting roll + extra mana to hit 35 and we can cast that 'they just die' spell at a climatic moment. And geeze, take a 4 point relic to refund you the mana when you successfully cast any one spell. Tag it to Blood Ritual at a +20 or more (by focusing only on necromancy) and you're basically all "give me your HP" forever.
    Last edited by Telok; 2023-05-01 at 04:13 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Brian ran a session of his game yesterday.

    I just want to say, all of this issues about miscommunication and players doing stupid things and then whining about the game being to hard are all present, and indeed so much worse, when someone who isn't used to it is running the game.
    May need to make it a bit more idiot-proof so the dev isnt required to be in the room to sort things out during play
    Roll for it
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    May need to make it a bit more idiot-proof so the dev isnt required to be in the room to sort things out during play
    Its not really about rules issues. Its mostly about nobody ever listening to anybody else and the players being too arrogant to use basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    .. so is armor pretty good, or are most of them.. kinda bad at their chosen combat method? I would expect better than 50/50 odds of hitting an 'amateur' target for anybody who is meant to be good at some form of fighting, and they're mostly less than that.
    They are fairly new characters, yes. Amateur represents a town guard, militia men, or thug. Someone who knows the basics of combat bat isn't a trained soldier.

    I would say everyone but Flossie is "bad" at offense. Kumiko and Feurlina both have defensive builds, and miles is just an absolute mess.

    Note however, that this isn't the chance to hit. This is the chance to injure and opponent with an attack. The system isn't like D&D were you have a boatload of HP to whittle down, on average 2 injuries is enough to take a given character out of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    snip
    Thank you again for taking the time to do this.

    The only big issue with the build I see is that it appears like it is built around Last Breath. The problem with that spell is that most of the things you are fighting will be extras, the equivalent of a minion in D&D, and most extras don't have any mana or destiny to steal; that spell is more for enemy wizards, big bads, and recouping some of the resources of a fallen PC. You can, however, take a soul gem as an artifact that is *almost* as good.

    With a 5 endurance and agility, you might also be a little squishier than you think you are, although with the helmet and heavy armor you can sure take a hit better than Flossie (or most of Bob's characters for that matter).

    Rich gives you an extra item, it doesn't improve the quality of existing items. You want heirloom for that.

    Skills don't suffer a penalty for being without a tool. Certain tasks (of which spell-casting is NOT one) have the *implement* tag. These abilities are the only things that suffer that penalty.

    You do add your strength to your damage with guns.*

    You do start out with tools for your secondary skills, so you should already have seer's crystals.

    Weapons don't have a maximum range, they just stack -2 accuracy penalties for long range until hitting is impossible.

    Magic missiles have a casting difficulty opposed by the opponent's dodge score. If you successfully cast, proceed to rolling for damage, they may not dodge, resist, or evade.

    Grimoires are per skill, although their weight is not cumulative as the same book can contain multiple schools.

    Correct, mana and destiny are starting values, not caps.

    Blood ritual is a very good choice for a staff of power. In my last game one of the characters had one, and she basically never cast another spell again for the rest of the campaign.

    *I know this feels a bit odd. I used to have a much more in depth "caliber" system for determining the damage of firearms, but it was clunky to write out and boils down to the same thing in the end, so I decided to go for simplicity.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2023-05-01 at 09:01 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    (
    At the same time, they don't like using melee to hit roll spells because they are a delicate little cloth wearer and don't want to get close to the monsters. (This isn't an innate part of the system, but rather part of the player's build and the wizard "class fantasy").
    Thoughts?
    A point to note, if those limitations aren't compensated, the "class fantasy" is not supported by the game.
    Which is fine if it's a design choice
    But a player who's making character choices not supported by the system has a shortage of legs to stand on if they underperform in combat.
    Last edited by Duff; 2023-05-01 at 07:15 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    The only big issue with the build I see is that it appears like it is built around Last Breath. The problem with that spell is that most of the things you are fighting will be extras, the equivalent of a minion in D&D, and most extras don't have any mana or destiny to steal; that spell is more for enemy wizards, big bads, and recouping some of the resources of a fallen PC. You can, however, take a soul gem as an artifact that is *almost* as good....

    ...Rich gives you an extra item, it doesn't improve the quality of existing items. You want heirloom for that....

    ...Skills don't suffer a penalty for being without a tool. Certain tasks (of which spell-casting is one) have the *implement* tag. These abilities are the only things that suffer that penalty.....
    Cool, cool. Ok. Good to know about the extras. I admit to not having read all the pages of misc. magic items. Then the character may well have dropped Rich for two more secondary training in other magics to get more books.

    So with the base target number being 20 what's a decent attack or general skill bonus? Here's a character who runs at +8 to +11 in a bunch of stuff. Ok or going to be gimp?

    Spoiler
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    Looks like a fat happy Buddah statue come to life.

    attributes: agility 5, charisma 5, dexterity 5, endurance 5, intelligence 5, perception 5, strength 5, willpower 5
    cost: 80/100

    aspects/figured stats: animus 1, chakras 1, concentration(focus) 3, destiny(rerolls) 3, dodge(10+dodge=to-be-hit) 7= 17, encumbrance 5, initiative 10, mana(spells) 3, wealth(debits) 4, might(cbt maneuvers) 10, resilience(10+rsv=to-be-hurt) 21= 31, speed 6, tenacity(vs disabled by dmg) 5, vitality(wounds) 5

    Skills
    primary skills: unarmed (dex +11), fortitude (end +10), expression (cha +10)
    secondary skills: acrobat (agl +8), domestic (int +8 & house), reason (int +3), marksman (dex +8), alertness (+9), athletics (+9), insight (+9), stealth (+9)
    untrained: perform (+0 & instrument), larceny (+6), ride (+6), survival (+6)

    flaws: absent minded, amputee(r.arm), attention deficit, blase, color blind (purple/blue), fat, harsh voice, hollow (-2 spell damage), impoverished, poor hearing (-2 audio), unlucky
    cost: -16+80=64

    traits: unbalanced dexterity (dex @ -1 dodge & +1 speed), soulless (untargetable by supernatural abilities)

    merits: chi (+animus to alert athletic insight larceny resilience ride stealth survival unarmed & unarmed damage while not using tools/armor), bionic arm (r.arm & +2 str) with wing clipper & shooting, +16 resilience, sagacious x4 (stealth, alertness, athletics, insight)
    cost: 20+64=84+12=96+4=100

    gear: orange robes (long sleeves), bucket of fried chicken, kind of furnished cell in <monastery>, 1 week food & drink, 1 week lamp oil, 1 week matches, coin purse (4 coins), rucksack, indestructible smile of perfect teeth, shaving kit (not naturally bald), gloves

    fighty:
    punch, atk +11, dmg +8, can do at range (increment 5 paces)
    - note: can combo strikes -> surgical + maiming + reckless or 3x wild strike
    - gruesome blow, -2 accuracy & wounded makes morale test
    - kai, -2 accuracy & expression vs resolve to inflict vulnerability to EONT
    - maim, -2 accuracy & on wound target fortitude vs 15+(dmg over resil) or crippled limb
    - reckless, +2 accuracy & -4 dodge to EONT
    - subdue, -2 accuracy & on hit target resolve vs 20 +/- (diff damage test from resil) or stunned
    - sweep, +2 accuracy & -4 damage
    - WILD STRIKE, -1 accuracy & apply effect of (roll on table) strike

    TODO: buy more resilience & sagacious & unarmed combat, maybe think about raising some stats?


    Maim maneuver has a typo, last sentence "might blow" -> "mighty blow"

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Cool, cool. Ok. Good to know about the extras. I admit to not having read all the pages of misc. magic items. Then the character may well have dropped Rich for two more secondary training in other magics to get more books.

    So with the base target number being 20 what's a decent attack or general skill bonus? Here's a character who runs at +8 to +11 in a bunch of stuff. Ok or going to be gimp?

    Spoiler
    Show

    Looks like a fat happy Buddah statue come to life.

    attributes: agility 5, charisma 5, dexterity 5, endurance 5, intelligence 5, perception 5, strength 5, willpower 5
    cost: 80/100

    aspects/figured stats: animus 1, chakras 1, concentration(focus) 3, destiny(rerolls) 3, dodge(10+dodge=to-be-hit) 7= 17, encumbrance 5, initiative 10, mana(spells) 3, wealth(debits) 4, might(cbt maneuvers) 10, resilience(10+rsv=to-be-hurt) 21= 31, speed 6, tenacity(vs disabled by dmg) 5, vitality(wounds) 5

    Skills
    primary skills: unarmed (dex +11), fortitude (end +10), expression (cha +10)
    secondary skills: acrobat (agl +8), domestic (int +8 & house), reason (int +3), marksman (dex +8), alertness (+9), athletics (+9), insight (+9), stealth (+9)
    untrained: perform (+0 & instrument), larceny (+6), ride (+6), survival (+6)

    flaws: absent minded, amputee(r.arm), attention deficit, blase, color blind (purple/blue), fat, harsh voice, hollow (-2 spell damage), impoverished, poor hearing (-2 audio), unlucky
    cost: -16+80=64

    traits: unbalanced dexterity (dex @ -1 dodge & +1 speed), soulless (untargetable by supernatural abilities)

    merits: chi (+animus to alert athletic insight larceny resilience ride stealth survival unarmed & unarmed damage while not using tools/armor), bionic arm (r.arm & +2 str) with wing clipper & shooting, +16 resilience, sagacious x4 (stealth, alertness, athletics, insight)
    cost: 20+64=84+12=96+4=100

    gear: orange robes (long sleeves), bucket of fried chicken, kind of furnished cell in <monastery>, 1 week food & drink, 1 week lamp oil, 1 week matches, coin purse (4 coins), rucksack, indestructible smile of perfect teeth, shaving kit (not naturally bald), gloves

    fighty:
    punch, atk +11, dmg +8, can do at range (increment 5 paces)
    - note: can combo strikes -> surgical + maiming + reckless or 3x wild strike
    - gruesome blow, -2 accuracy & wounded makes morale test
    - kai, -2 accuracy & expression vs resolve to inflict vulnerability to EONT
    - maim, -2 accuracy & on wound target fortitude vs 15+(dmg over resil) or crippled limb
    - reckless, +2 accuracy & -4 dodge to EONT
    - subdue, -2 accuracy & on hit target resolve vs 20 +/- (diff damage test from resil) or stunned
    - sweep, +2 accuracy & -4 damage
    - WILD STRIKE, -1 accuracy & apply effect of (roll on table) strike

    TODO: buy more resilience & sagacious & unarmed combat, maybe think about raising some stats?


    Maim maneuver has a typo, last sentence "might blow" -> "mighty blow"
    Most starting characters will have +12-+14 in their area of expertise, so he is a bit on the gimp side. He seems a very jack of all trades character though, which tends to work better in a very small or a very large party. If he specialized a bit more he is pretty solid, the bionic arm + wing-clipper build is really cool.

    I don't believe you can take Hollow without Enlightenment though.

    Wait, do you have a trait for +16 resilience? That shouldn't be...
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I don't believe you can take Hollow without Enlightenment though.

    Wait, do you have a trait for +16 resilience? That shouldn't be...
    I may have missed the name... toughness. Scrolling around through full pdfs on a phone is annoying. Not taking hollow without enlighten makes sense, also in some cases of the 'can cast just one spell' trait. I haven't looked into nonhumans & mutants yet, or all the spells + items.

    Next char lets see how far i can push one spell.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I may have missed the name... toughness. Scrolling around through full pdfs on a phone is annoying. Not taking hollow without enlighten makes sense, also in some cases of the 'can cast just one spell' trait. I haven't looked into non-humans & mutants yet, or all the spells + items.
    Remember those *s you asked me about earlier?

    Both Toughness and Hollow have them, which means Toughness can't push you beyond an effective 10 endurance and Hollow can't bring you below an effective 1 enlightenment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Next char lets see how far i can push one spell.
    Looking forward to it!

    (The big trick to powering up spells involves making pacts with spirits using Cacodaemon and Kismet, but its a bit tricky and probably not immediately apparent).
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Remember those *s you asked me about earlier?

    Both Toughness and Hollow have them, which means Toughness can't push you beyond an effective 10 endurance and Hollow can't bring you below an effective 1 enlightenment.
    Ah, that's interesting. It is not apparent because those read as derived stats that are set by the base attribute but do not themselves affect that attribute.... that means you can't get a toughness, skill rating, mana, etc., higher than 15 before of equipment bonuses. How does that interact with the chi, unbalanced, and legendary skill traits?... Wait, does that mean the +5 skill boost merits are also hitting that +15 cap? There's spells that add +number to stats for a while, does it cap them too? Vulnerability and resistance shouldn't be affected by that (+/-4 to resilience for resisting damage), but now I'm uncertain.

    Hmm... it cuts down on extreme numbers. Pushes you into looking to stack gear and miscellaneous bonuses. The base target number 20 is never a sure roll without quality+ or relic gear.

    Not having read every single item, monster, religion bit, and spell I'd have no idea about your spell power thing with the summons. But the 15 cap does mostly stop the idea I had. That was... well now capped it's +15+heirloom book+staff of power for alacrity celerity circles of protection (would need dewormer master stacking now... and I'm leaving that typo there). Just spam circles to make a safe zone for the party to shoot out of. Sure, intelligent creatures will back off or try to get around it. But unlimited at-will 2/turn+reaction=3 "no wood can reach us" + "no life can come closer than that" + "no bullets can come within 15 feet" is pretty good. At least until you get into the cast/counter duel with another caster but that's what the old Shadowrun saying about magical supeority is for. There might be a more metamagic efficent way to get there but big lists without summaries (like the ones for traits & skills) make it slow going.

    Oh, and enchantment duration is nebulous. I think spamming circle of protection or empowered protection (invulnerability to ghasts!) would work, but I'd really want to have a nice talk with the GM to nail things down before plopping down a character. Do enchantments last the whole scene by default? There was a bit about the subject of a water breathing spell continuing it beyond the end of the duration by paying mana each turn, that's what brought it up.

    Last note, aggrivating because I didn't write it down when I noticed it last night. Left hand column in the beastiary, in one of the sections before undead, in a description that continues over from the next page, it talks about how rare a creature/species is. But the descriptor is flipped. It's something like where it should read 'extremely uncommon' but actually says 'extremely common'. Not those words either. Good luck.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Ah, that's interesting. It is not apparent because those read as derived stats that are set by the base attribute but do not themselves affect that attribute.... that means you can't get a toughness, skill rating, mana, etc., higher than 15 before of equipment bonuses. How does that interact with the chi, unbalanced, and legendary skill traits?... Wait, does that mean the +5 skill boost merits are also hitting that +15 cap? There's spells that add +number to stats for a while, does it cap them too? Vulnerability and resistance shouldn't be affected by that (+/-4 to resilience for resisting damage), but now I'm uncertain.

    Hmm... it cuts down on extreme numbers. Pushes you into looking to stack gear and miscellaneous bonuses. The base target number 20 is never a sure roll without quality+ or relic gear.
    Traits with a * can't take you beyond an effective ten. Magic / racial modifiers can't take you beyond an effective 15. Traits that aren't either of those things have no limits.

    Generally you can get up to +30 in any given score, although that isn't a hard cap, and is pretty tough to do for a starting character without heavy relic and heirloom.

    Up to ten from base levels or traits with *.
    Up to fifteen from magic or species modifiers.
    Then up to +5 from proficiency, +5 from tool quality, and +5 from legendary skill.

    Traits like Chi or Beauty tend to replace the tool bonus.

    Mana, Destiny, and Concentration have no caps at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Not having read every single item, monster, religion bit, and spell I'd have no idea about your spell power thing with the summons. But the 15 cap does mostly stop the idea I had. That was... well now capped it's +15+heirloom book+staff of power for alacrity celerity circles of protection (would need dewormer master stacking now... and I'm leaving that typo there). Just spam circles to make a safe zone for the party to shoot out of. Sure, intelligent creatures will back off or try to get around it. But unlimited at-will 2/turn+reaction=3 "no wood can reach us" + "no life can come closer than that" + "no bullets can come within 15 feet" is pretty good. At least until you get into the cast/counter duel with another caster but that's what the old Shadowrun saying about magical supeority is for. There might be a more metamagic efficent way to get there but big lists without summaries (like the ones for traits & skills) make it slow going.

    Oh, and enchantment duration is nebulous. I think spamming circle of protection or empowered protection (invulnerability to ghasts!) would work, but I'd really want to have a nice talk with the GM to nail things down before plopping down a character. Do enchantments last the whole scene by default? There was a bit about the subject of a water breathing spell continuing it beyond the end of the duration by paying mana each turn, that's what brought it up.
    Yeah, that is a pretty effective strategy. The party used it extensively in the last campaign.

    Yes, enchantments last the whole scene by default. You can use metamagics to make them longer or shorter though, and anti-magic can cause them to end prematurely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Last note, aggravating because I didn't write it down when I noticed it last night. Left hand column in the beastiary, in one of the sections before undead, in a description that continues over from the next page, it talks about how rare a creature/species is. But the descriptor is flipped. It's something like where it should read 'extremely uncommon' but actually says 'extremely common'. Not those words either. Good luck.
    Thanks. I will try and find it.
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    All right. With that explanation and another rereading it makes more sense. I think that I, personally, would be tempted to replace the * with... I don't know... 'att. capped'? Maybe '10-stat'? Hmm... Maybe it's just preference. I like being as explicit as possible within the given bounds of word count, layout, etc. It works as it currently, I think I was just going fast or distracted and not thinking through implications.

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    Okay, I'm sitting down to write out a character, but my initial reaction is that the main issue with the whole thing for me was organization and clarity. There are a lot of options, but nothing to guide me down which ones to take. I'm trying to replicate the blaster caster that was having issues, but I have no idea if my end result is good or not. I feel like I must be missing some options or something.

    Spoiler: Blaster Wizard
    Show


    attributes: agility 2, charisma 3, dexterity 2, endurance 1, intelligence 6, perception 3, strength 2, willpower 8, Occult 15 (Mutant)
    cost: 74/100

    aspects/figured stats: animus 1, chakras 1, concentration(focus) 6, destiny(rerolls) 3, dodge 7, encumbrance 2, initiative 5, mana 8, wealth ?, might 4, resilience 1, speed 2, tenacity 8, vitality 1

    Skills
    primary skills: Evocation 20, Restoration 20, Conjuration 20
    secondary skills: Academics 9, Technology 9, Chronomancy 18
    untrained (Lowered by Ignorance): Charm 3, Illusion 1, Necromancy 1, Technomancy 5, Mysticism 5
    Untrained (Lowered by Flaws): Social 1, Business 1, Leadership 1

    flaws: Honest, Naive, Shy, Deep Sleeper, Ignorant x30
    Cost 68/138

    Quirks: Inept Social x3, Inept Business x3, Inept Leadership x3

    Merits: Wise x3, Mutant (Occult) x5, Heirloom (Grimoire +5), Flame Staff of Power + Rod of Supremacy (Phantom) + Symbiotic, Golden Fleece + Symbiotic, Evocation Fetish + Symbiotic x2
    64



    If I'm reading this right, this character could cast the Flame spell every round, with a +25 to hit rolling 3d20 and taking the best result. They would also be able to ignore all penalties from firing into a melee. On the downside I think they would have to be close to the front, but I could probably buy down a few more skills to buff my character's perception if that turns out to be a major issue. I could have also taken Legendary skill for another +1 to my attack, so I hope that isn't gimping the character too much. It just felt a little much to invest in before Animus hit 2.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    Okay, I'm sitting down to write out a character, but my initial reaction is that the main issue with the whole thing for me was organization and clarity. There are a lot of options, but nothing to guide me down which ones to take. I'm trying to replicate the blaster caster that was having issues, but I have no idea if my end result is good or not. I feel like I must be missing some options or something.

    Spoiler: Blaster Wizard
    Show


    attributes: agility 2, charisma 3, dexterity 2, endurance 1, intelligence 6, perception 3, strength 2, willpower 8, Occult 15 (Mutant)
    cost: 74/100

    aspects/figured stats: animus 1, chakras 1, concentration(focus) 6, destiny(rerolls) 3, dodge 7, encumbrance 2, initiative 5, mana 8, wealth ?, might 4, resilience 1, speed 2, tenacity 8, vitality 1

    Skills
    primary skills: Evocation 20, Restoration 20, Conjuration 20
    secondary skills: Academics 9, Technology 9, Chronomancy 18
    untrained (Lowered by Ignorance): Charm 3, Illusion 1, Necromancy 1, Technomancy 5, Mysticism 5
    Untrained (Lowered by Flaws): Social 1, Business 1, Leadership 1

    flaws: Honest, Naive, Shy, Deep Sleeper, Ignorant x30
    Cost 68/138

    Quirks: Inept Social x3, Inept Business x3, Inept Leadership x3

    Merits: Wise x3, Mutant (Occult) x5, Heirloom (Grimoire +5), Flame Staff of Power + Rod of Supremacy (Phantom) + Symbiotic, Golden Fleece + Symbiotic, Evocation Fetish + Symbiotic x2
    64



    If I'm reading this right, this character could cast the Flame spell every round, with a +25 to hit rolling 3d20 and taking the best result. They would also be able to ignore all penalties from firing into a melee. On the downside I think they would have to be close to the front, but I could probably buy down a few more skills to buff my character's perception if that turns out to be a major issue. I could have also taken Legendary skill for another +1 to my attack, so I hope that isn't gimping the character too much. It just felt a little much to invest in before Animus hit 2.
    This seems like an excellent attempt to out Bob Bob. An absolutely monstrous glass cannon that is immune to conventional damage.

    A symbiotic golden fleece is brilliant, but you are really going to suffer against any form of attack that bypasses it; mind control, suffocation, grappling, etc, and if you are caught in a null zone or otherwise have the artifacts suppressed you won't last long at all.

    I agree, legendary skill is generally not worth it in the first arc.

    I think you are confusing "score" and "proficiency level" for a lot of extra CP.
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    This seems like an excellent attempt to out Bob Bob. An absolutely monstrous glass cannon that is immune to conventional damage.

    A symbiotic golden fleece is brilliant, but you are really going to suffer against any form of attack that bypasses it; mind control, suffocation, grappling, etc, and if you are caught in a null zone or otherwise have the artifacts suppressed you won't last long at all.

    I agree, legendary skill is generally not worth it in the first arc.

    I think you are confusing "score" and "proficiency level" for a lot of extra CP.
    Yeah, well, mage right? The fighters go up front, so the mage can stay out of grappling distance, and be aware of null zones instead of accidentally stepping into one. As for mind control, I'd bet this character could pull off a mean counterspell with their default check of +20.

    As for the rest, it's an interesting trade, because it forces this mage to be more generalist and less specialized. I think I'd drop the two fetishes (as cool as they are) and the wisdom, and pick up a few extra flaws to balance the rest out. Grab the Child Quirk, and then the Tiny, Civilian (x3), Slow Metabolism, and Follower Flaws. Call them Perry Haughter or something.

    There is a part of me that feels that a different set of spell schools would work better for this character. Going evocation was just to match what the player had intended, but since magic missiles exist in all schools, I feel there could be some interesting other options. On the other hand, switching the free spell to Meteor Swarm would be an interesting alternative, allowing for better crowd control vs single target damage (Assuming that the Phantom Armament would allow the meteors to not target allies, which seems to be implied, but isn't explicit).

    Probably would still want to grab Wise as soon as possible, but eh.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    On the other hand, switching the free spell to Meteor Swarm would be an interesting alternative, allowing for better crowd control vs single target damage (Assuming that the Phantom Armament would allow the meteors to not target allies, which seems to be implied, but isn't explicit).
    I hadn't considered that. I am not sure if a Phantom would ignore allies when it came to AoE effects.
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    So I quickly want to talk about why designing an unbreakable base system is important. Remember how people said they found my system Videogamey? It's because I went in knowing what I wanted, and knowing the pitfalls. The main issue with games like 3.x and the like is that their power stems from unintended interactions (Also that they involve screaming special attacks like 'Fireball' while not being considered videogamey, but that's a personal nitpick).

    So let me share with you an artifact that a player can start the game with that completely breaks most of the assumptions of the game (and is stronger than anything my system allows until players reach level 19):

    Bow of Shadows: Huntsman (4+2), Penetrater (4x2+2), Phantom (4x2+2), True Flight (4x2+2), Sacred (1+2), Anointed x3, Imperishable x5 - CP: 39

    Expensive, but purchasable. This bow can hit anyone the user is aware of, from anywhere in the world, ignoring any and all protections including antimagic zones. This could allow a character to sit a ways away from a dungeon, and just repeatedly target the closest foe that exists within the dungeon. This could also be used as part of a Rod of Supremacy, which would free up about 10 points (as there is no need for the ability to shoot into an antimagic zone).

    Unless I'm very mistaken, this sort of breaks the game. That story I told about a character in my game sitting on the sun firing blasts of fire down through the world to strike the final boss? Fairly doable, as an Empowered Body of Fire allows them to exist next to the sun, while a teleport with a DC of 70 would allow them to teleport to the sun (This may sound unreasonably high, but it's very doable at higher character point limits. A high level character can be rolling with an average of +50 to their chosen skill, and with a bunch of spare mana, the Fortune roll can be bought up to 20 using mana).

    Of course sitting on the sun isn't even really necessary. Considering how slow characters move in this game, sitting even a few miles away will likely be more than enough. I'm just using it to illustrate a point. You've created a system that allows for a huge amount of freedom for your players, but I don't see any balancing mechanisms to handle the level of power you give them.

    And worst of all in my opinion, is the variance in character power that system mastery gives. I'm not a master of your system, but I did sink about 3 days into character creation. The character I built was far stronger than my initial idea of just going for a 5 in all stats other then one that I would buy up to 10, and then taking a few traits. To build these characters I needed to read hundreds of pages to find small things like the Anointed Meta artifact power. It was fun building a character, but this level of disparity is too high in my opinion.

    Building the character was fun and compelling. And I'd likely enjoy playing them, or any other character that I can build now. But if I played with your other players, I feel that they would get frustrated with my level of power very quickly. And that is completely understandable, because Perry Haughter above isn't even as optimized as I could make him now, but he would still out perform the rest of the players in combat. Flossy would be shooting into a melee combat with a +11 (If I'm reading her character sheet -penalties right). Perry would be rolling with a +25 (14 points higher), and would be rolling with a +20 for damage. I think with some messing around, I could change Perry so that his average attack result would be 50+, allowing most of his attacks to crit, making his damage rolls would have a +35 modifier.

    To me, this is the failure point of your game. It's complex, and system mastery makes an incredible difference in characters power levels. It also breaks when moderate levels of optimization are applied. Basically, this is like a more interesting, cool, and flavorful version of Mutants and Masterminds. I think it's really neat, but desperately needs to give players guidance on how to build their character. A section with dedicated lists of builds and options for modifying them would be a good start, as it would give PCs a baseline level of competence.

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Well I think I solved the thing about extras not having mana. It's expensive and you're crap at anything but 2-4 schools of magic but it'll keep the caster in mana.

    Spoiler
    Show

    3s in all attributes, which hurts. 48 pt.
    Sagacious x2 for 4 primary occult skills. 2 pt.
    Deformity (heart & ticking), eerie (bad animal karma), frail (-4 might), colorblind (yellow orange), harsh voice (-perform), meek (-1 physical damage), mutant (-1 size), poor hearing (-2), shy (-leader), weak arm (left -1 str). -13 pt.
    Mutant (relentless - never disabled), clockwork heart (clockwk symbiotic phylactracy - immortal & returns from death), soul gem (on kill trap soul for 1 limited mana), enlightened x10 (+10 all casting), heirloom grimorie (+5 mysticisim), prodigy mysticisim (+5), phial of moonlight (+1 all rolls 1/task), staff of power (Righteousness), staff of power (some blasty or damage spell - maybe Orb). 63 pt.
    A bunch of unbalanced traits to +/- 1s between derived attributes.

    The theme is to zap an extra with Righteouness to give them mana & destiny (roll 4+ & no mana cost), kick them down to dying any way we can (maybe cast Eye For An Eye), tag them with Sacrifice (dc 20 & no mana on success) which kills them and charges the soul gem. Any periapts left after a fight get turned into mana with Cannibalize Magic (& Calcify Magic from the soul gem). Should have, I think, +26 mysticisim and +16 in three other schools (abjure, restore, ???). Seriously considered dewomer keeper x4 for the alacrity metemagic to quick cast Sacrifice or take that and the other +5 to get it as a reaction. I think it works.


    Edit: had to sudden stop. So char is still vulnerable, likely needs immunity to suffocation and is physically & skill-wise inept. But strong magic with improved recharge. If I'm reading the spells right it's possible to transfer artifact powers between items, meaning the cgar quickly has all artifact effects transferred to the clockwork heart.

    On that huntsman bow, I think you're still limited by knowledge (need to know what or exactly where to shoot), ammo, attack & damage rolls, plus the occasional 'return to sender' ability. It's a strong theory build, but at the actual table you'd be racking up enemies who really really want your toy and will likely try to rush into melee.

    This system feels, in a way, closer to a lot of supers systems where the discussion between GM & players is important during char gen and play. This isn't a D&D AL thing where you show up with a random "book legal" character and the GM is obligated to let you do anything you want.

    @Tak, speaking of jack of all trades. How viable is a character with 7s in all stats, no merits, really minor flaws, and some unbalances to tweak a few skill points around? Say +13s melee & marksman, two other primary skills, six skills at +10. Although I guess you might juggle the uneducated thing & sagacious to get total 7 primary skills. Reasonable character or not specialized enough to be particularly useful?
    Last edited by Telok; 2023-05-03 at 11:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    On that huntsman bow, I think you're still limited by knowledge (need to know what or exactly where to shoot), ammo, attack & damage rolls, plus the occasional 'return to sender' ability. It's a strong theory build, but at the actual table you'd be racking up enemies who really really want your toy and will likely try to rush into melee.
    It depends on how you read the 'Some amount of Knowledge' bit. Considering it explicitly allows attacks against targets you don't know the location of, I feel like that plus the divination coin could give you enough info to start shooting, but it's GMs call. I guess having people after you is a decent reason to go to the moon or some other far away place.

    I'm sitting down to work on the strongest mage build I think I can manage. This one might be extra spicy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Well I think I solved the thing about extras not having mana. It's expensive and you're crap at anything but 2-4 schools of magic but it'll keep the caster in mana.

    Spoiler
    Show

    3s in all attributes, which hurts. 48 pt.
    Sagacious x2 for 4 primary occult skills. 2 pt.
    Deformity (heart & ticking), eerie (bad animal karma), frail (-4 might), colorblind (yellow orange), harsh voice (-perform), meek (-1 physical damage), mutant (-1 size), poor hearing (-2), shy (-leader), weak arm (left -1 str). -13 pt.
    Mutant (relentless - never disabled), clockwork heart (clockwk symbiotic phylactracy - immortal & returns from death), soul gem (on kill trap soul for 1 limited mana), enlightened x10 (+10 all casting), heirloom grimorie (+5 mysticisim), prodigy mysticisim (+5), phial of moonlight (+1 all rolls 1/task), staff of power (Righteousness), staff of power (some blasty or damage spell - maybe Orb). 63 pt.
    A bunch of unbalanced traits to +/- 1s between derived attributes.

    The theme is to zap an extra with Righteouness to give them mana & destiny (roll 4+ & no mana cost), kick them down to dying any way we can (maybe cast Eye For An Eye), tag them with Sacrifice (dc 20 & no mana on success) which kills them and charges the soul gem. Any periapts left after a fight get turned into mana with Cannibalize Magic (& Calcify Magic from the soul gem). Should have, I think, +26 mysticisim and +16 in three other schools (abjure, restore, ???). Seriously considered dewomer keeper x4 for the alacrity metemagic to quick cast Sacrifice or take that and the other +5 to get it as a reaction. I think it works.


    Edit: had to sudden stop. So char is still vulnerable, likely needs immunity to suffocation and is physically & skill-wise inept. But strong magic with improved recharge. If I'm reading the spells right it's possible to transfer artifact powers between items, meaning the cgar quickly has all artifact effects transferred to the clockwork heart.

    On that huntsman bow, I think you're still limited by knowledge (need to know what or exactly where to shoot), ammo, attack & damage rolls, plus the occasional 'return to sender' ability. It's a strong theory build, but at the actual table you'd be racking up enemies who really really want your toy and will likely try to rush into melee.

    This system feels, in a way, closer to a lot of supers systems where the discussion between GM & players is important during char gen and play. This isn't a D&D AL thing where you show up with a random "book legal" character and the GM is obligated to let you do anything you want.

    @Tak, speaking of jack of all trades. How viable is a character with 7s in all stats, no merits, really minor flaws, and some unbalances to tweak a few skill points around? Say +13s melee & marksman, two other primary skills, six skills at +10. Although I guess you might juggle the uneducated thing & sagacious to get total 7 primary skills. Reasonable character or not specialized enough to be particularly useful?
    Jack of all trades characters tend to do well in a small party where they will be called upon to fulfill a lot of rolls or a big party where they can provide redundancy wherever it is needed. In a medium sized party they tend to get overshadowed by specialists and feeling like a fifth wheel.

    That righteousness trick is an interesting one. I would probably rule that the mana and destiny still faded away when the enchantment ended though, even if it had been transferred to someone else or stored in an item, but I am not sure. Good catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    So I quickly want to talk about why designing an unbreakable base system is important. Remember how people said they found my system Videogamey? It's because I went in knowing what I wanted, and knowing the pitfalls. The main issue with games like 3.x and the like is that their power stems from unintended interactions (Also that they involve screaming special attacks like 'Fireball' while not being considered videogamey, but that's a personal nitpick).

    So let me share with you an artifact that a player can start the game with that completely breaks most of the assumptions of the game (and is stronger than anything my system allows until players reach level 19):

    Bow of Shadows: Huntsman (4+2), Penetrater (4x2+2), Phantom (4x2+2), True Flight (4x2+2), Sacred (1+2), Anointed x3, Imperishable x5 - CP: 39

    Expensive, but purchasable. This bow can hit anyone the user is aware of, from anywhere in the world, ignoring any and all protections including antimagic zones. This could allow a character to sit a ways away from a dungeon, and just repeatedly target the closest foe that exists within the dungeon. This could also be used as part of a Rod of Supremacy, which would free up about 10 points (as there is no need for the ability to shoot into an antimagic zone).

    Unless I'm very mistaken, this sort of breaks the game. That story I told about a character in my game sitting on the sun firing blasts of fire down through the world to strike the final boss? Fairly doable, as an Empowered Body of Fire allows them to exist next to the sun, while a teleport with a DC of 70 would allow them to teleport to the sun (This may sound unreasonably high, but it's very doable at higher character point limits. A high level character can be rolling with an average of +50 to their chosen skill, and with a bunch of spare mana, the Fortune roll can be bought up to 20 using mana).

    Of course sitting on the sun isn't even really necessary. Considering how slow characters move in this game, sitting even a few miles away will likely be more than enough. I'm just using it to illustrate a point. You've created a system that allows for a huge amount of freedom for your players, but I don't see any balancing mechanisms to handle the level of power you give them.

    And worst of all in my opinion, is the variance in character power that system mastery gives. I'm not a master of your system, but I did sink about 3 days into character creation. The character I built was far stronger than my initial idea of just going for a 5 in all stats other then one that I would buy up to 10, and then taking a few traits. To build these characters I needed to read hundreds of pages to find small things like the Anointed Meta artifact power. It was fun building a character, but this level of disparity is too high in my opinion.

    Building the character was fun and compelling. And I'd likely enjoy playing them, or any other character that I can build now. But if I played with your other players, I feel that they would get frustrated with my level of power very quickly. And that is completely understandable, because Perry Haughter above isn't even as optimized as I could make him now, but he would still out perform the rest of the players in combat. Flossy would be shooting into a melee combat with a +11 (If I'm reading her character sheet -penalties right). Perry would be rolling with a +25 (14 points higher), and would be rolling with a +20 for damage. I think with some messing around, I could change Perry so that his average attack result would be 50+, allowing most of his attacks to crit, making his damage rolls would have a +35 modifier.

    To me, this is the failure point of your game. It's complex, and system mastery makes an incredible difference in characters power levels. It also breaks when moderate levels of optimization are applied. Basically, this is like a more interesting, cool, and flavorful version of Mutants and Masterminds. I think it's really neat, but desperately needs to give players guidance on how to build their character. A section with dedicated lists of builds and options for modifying them would be a good start, as it would give PCs a baseline level of competence.
    I agree, more examples and guidelines are much needed.

    The problem with spending dozens of character points on relics is that you are a starting character with more wealth than an end game character, and you really only keep your powers through DM mercy. In fiction, there is no reason why people much more powerful than you are wouldn't track you down and steal your powers. Its a lot like the fable of the golden goose.

    One of my very old horror stories involved a character starting play with a weapon much like that bow. The DM started the game, immediately told the player to make an impossible resolve test, and said that an enemy arch-mage cast seize on him from a mile away. That's a lot more passive aggressive than I would have handled it, but the principle is the same.

    On a broader note, freedom in character creation is the big hinge of my system, but a lot of it is protecting players from themselves. Most "broken" characters are just characters who have put all of their eggs in one basket and can only really do one thing. Then they get bored and feel useless when their "one thing" isn't applicable, and worse, they then make trouble for the rest of the party and get reprimanded / threatened in or out of character. Same with defenses, putting all your eggs into one defense works good for most stuff, but then if you run up against something that can bypass it, you can lose the character in the blink of an eye.

    In have never had a player come in with a character that I felt broke the game; although there have obviously been a few "infinite loops" and other rules exploits that needed fixing over playtesting. Your Perry Haughter is actually very similar to Bob's character in my previous game (save the Golden Fleece, Bob prefers to use meta-defenses to protect his character) and while she was certainly a great blaster, the group still ended most sessions having used up most of their resources and whining that the game was too hard.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    The problem with spending dozens of character points on relics is that you are a starting character with more wealth than an end game character, and you really only keep your powers through DM mercy. In fiction, there is no reason why people much more powerful than you are wouldn't track you down and steal your powers. Its a lot like the fable of the golden goose.
    The Symbiotic Meta artifact power means that they can't be stolen. Also, in the example of the bow, stealing it is pointless, as the Attunement cost is completely beyond what anyone other than the person it was created for could pay. In your example below, the mage could take the bow, but they could never use it, and neither could anyone else. Now if you feel the game is balanced because a GM can just kill a PC at any time, I personally disagree that is what balance means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    On a broader note, freedom in character creation is the big hinge of my system, but a lot of it is protecting players from themselves. Most "broken" characters are just characters who have put all of their eggs in one basket and can only really do one thing. Then they get bored and feel useless when their "one thing" isn't applicable, and worse, they then make trouble for the rest of the party and get reprimanded / threatened in or out of character. Same with defenses, putting all your eggs into one defense works good for most stuff, but then if you run up against something that can bypass it, you can lose the character in the blink of an eye.
    Freedom in character creation only matters if the players have the tools to make use of that freedom. It's very complicated right now.

    That said, I think I have a mage that should have a lot of options during gameplay. I'm sure it's weak to 'Rocks fall', and it needs a few rounds at the start of each adventure to be able to cast a few self buffs, but assuming that the GM doesn't immediately kill it, it should be a reasonable option.

    Spoiler: Tom the Wishmaster
    Show


    Tom cast a spell to make him into the greatest illusionist in the universe. Doing so cost him almost everything but his soul. He starts the game wasted, and a feathers breath from dying.

    Spoiler: Base Stats
    Show

    attributes: agility 1, charisma 1, dexterity 1, endurance 1, intelligence 2, perception 1, strength 1, willpower 5, Occult 10

    Skills
    primary skill: Illusion

    flaws: Ignorant, Absent Minded, Arthritic, Deep Sleeper, Dull Witted, Follower, Harsh Voice, Honest, Naive, Shy, Slow Metabolism, Tiny, Ugly

    Quirks: Unbalanced Willpower (+mana)x5

    Merits: Lucky x3, Ka x2, Dweomer Master (Empower), Dweomer Master (Extend), Chaotic (x10) Symbiotic Heirloom +5, Symbiotic Illusion Fetish x4, Symbiotic Cataract Staff of Power, Symbiotic Imperishable Cataract Wand of Bubble of Hope with Anointed Wand of Empower


    This characters first action is to to cast an illusion of a person, and then make it real with Cataract. Then they target the empty body with a Cataract casting of Genesis with Bind+empowerx2 (+wand enchantments). This allows them to build a character with 160 character points. They then create a second one, and fuse the two together Cataract casting Fusion with their own mana, This fusing is special, as they increase the DC up to 52 by adding an extra copy of the empower metamagic, and two copies of the Extend Metamagic (This keeps the fusion going for the rest of the adventure). They then do the same the fuse the fusion with themselves, again spending mana. This allows them to ditch their negative traits and pick up some better ones, becoming an occult mutant to add +5 to their Occult score, and pick up other schools of magic. This also bumps up their number of Chakras.

    Finally, with their new level of skill, they can Cataract cast Presence of the Master +5 on themselves with Extend x2 using Mana. By my calculations, this has a DC of 60 which means they have an 83% chance of success, which isn't great, but as this is the last major enchantment they will cast, they can spend some mana if they roll a little low to boost their result.

    With this done, they are rolling their Illusion checks with a base mod of +30, and have an over 95% chance of getting an additional +20 on the roll, with the second roll being made with 5d20 keeping the highest 1.

    So now with these few actions taken, let's look at Tom. They have a 10 in every attribute except occult where they have a 15. They have lots of primary skills (11 by my count), and like 40 secondary skills, along with a bunch of traits giving them +5 in a number of different areas. With this insane level of illusion magic, they can quick cast any illusion one round, then make it real the next, not having to spend any mana as they crit succeed on pretty much any illusion (giving them a refund). Cataract would cost mana to use, but the staff of power can refund any use of it that doesn't rely on an enchantment.

    This means they can make any amount of wealth, and maybe artifacts or more depending on how rulings are made. They have access to every spell in the game, which can even allow them to leave the game and enter another one, or alter the rules of the system itself.

    And finally, because you bring it up, if a mage does try to mind control them from a mile away at the start of the game, since they are a mage themselves, they can counterspell, even while being completely helpless.


    So, does that manage to not be a one trick pony?
    Last edited by Jakinbandw; 2023-05-03 at 05:15 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    The Symbiotic Meta artifact power means that they can't be stolen. Also, in the example of the bow, stealing it is pointless, as the Attunement cost is completely beyond what anyone other than the person it was created for could pay. In your example below, the mage could take the bow, but they could never use it, and neither could anyone else. Now if you feel the game is balanced because a GM can just kill a PC at any time, I personally disagree that is what balance means.
    Its not that the GM could kill you, its that the GM has to actively protect you.

    I don't want to go back to the victim blaming discussion from a few weeks ago, but a starting character with that bow is the equivalent of a taking a nap on a park bench in the worst part of town while wearing the crown jewels of the British Empire.

    He doesn't have the means to fight off the people for whom that is still life changing money.

    Without a miracle, natural cause and effect is going to see him robbed.

    Symbiotic artifact powers can still be transferred or have the ambrosia ripped out of them. Likewise, one can still partially attune to an artifact.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    Freedom in character creation only matters if the players have the tools to make use of that freedom. It's very complicated right now.

    That said, I think I have a mage that should have a lot of options during gameplay. I'm sure it's weak to 'Rocks fall', and it needs a few rounds at the start of each adventure to be able to cast a few self buffs, but assuming that the GM doesn't immediately kill it, it should be a reasonable option.
    .. I'm assuming this works, because I don't have the time to try to go through everything fine tooth right now (looks like base loop is - make an illusion of a body that has traits you'd prefer to have. Cataract [spell turns illusions real] to make it a real.. corpse, presumably, at this point? Genesis [spell turns things into actual creatures] to animate it. Fusion to join yourself with it, thus overwriting all of your terrible stats with the new body's. Repeat until the DM throws books at you/until all of your stats and traits are as high as you can get at your current power-scale stat.) This is.. almost inevitably a result of any ability in any game that lets you merge stats and take the best of whatever.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Its not that the GM could kill you, its that the GM has to actively protect you.

    I don't want to go back to the victim blaming discussion from a few weeks ago, but a starting character with that bow is the equivalent of a taking a nap on a park bench in the worst part of town while wearing the crown jewels of the British Empire.

    He doesn't have the means to fight off the people for whom that is still life changing money.

    Without a miracle, natural cause and effect is going to see him robbed.

    Symbiotic artifact powers can still be transferred or have the ambrosia ripped out of them. Likewise, one can still partially attune to an artifact.
    In the curse section, you mention that an artifact can have a curse to only work for one person, but that still brings up the question, why does everyone in the setting know about this character having an artifact? Like based on the scaling I see, it doesn't matter if they were animus 1 or animus 5, they would still auto loose to that attack, and they would be weaker without the bow than with it at any power level.

    At that point, why adventure? If any artifacts or treasure are all automatically known of by foes that can cast mind control from a mile away with no chance of failure, why adventure if anything you get is going to be stolen. Likewise, what is the point of giving characters the option to purchase these artifacts if they will just get taken away at the start of the game. That's a false choice. It seems like they are following the rules, but because everyone in the setting knows about their weapons, they can just be instantly stolen.

    I guess that's why Wise exists? So that a player can get around such things? The mage tries to mind control them, so they go back in time before the mage was within range to mind control and use the bow to kill them?

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    Default Re: Balancing Blaster Wizards (Design Philosophy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    In the curse section, you mention that an artifact can have a curse to only work for one person, but that still brings up the question, why does everyone in the setting know about this character having an artifact? Like based on the scaling I see, it doesn't matter if they were animus 1 or animus 5, they would still auto loose to that attack, and they would be weaker without the bow than with it at any power level.

    At that point, why adventure? If any artifacts or treasure are all automatically known of by foes that can cast mind control from a mile away with no chance of failure, why adventure if anything you get is going to be stolen. Likewise, what is the point of giving characters the option to purchase these artifacts if they will just get taken away at the start of the game. That's a false choice. It seems like they are following the rules, but because everyone in the setting knows about their weapons, they can just be instantly stolen.
    Its not about everyone automatically knowing. Its not about using the trait to have an artifact or two.

    Its about a starting character having more wealth than most end game characters. At that point your character is just a collection of artifacts. News is going to get out, and powerful people are going to try and take it from you.

    To use a D&D analogy, if your GM gave your mid-level party the option of going after two NPCs, a level 1 guy with all +5 gear or a level 20 guy with all +1 gear, you are going to choose the former every time. The risk vs. reward ratio is just too great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    I guess that's why Wise exists? So that a player can get around such things? The mage tries to mind control them, so they go back in time before the mage was within range to mind control and use the bow to kill them?
    Its not divination. I can't imagine a GM actually letting someone use it in that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    ...Tom the Wishmaster...[/SPOILER]
    This seems to be a variant of my "brain in a jar" build. Like most D&D TO builds, this requires the enthusiastic consent of the GM, as both Genesis and Cataract are spells that require the GM to work with you on what is appropriate.

    Are you just stacking a ton of levels of Ka on your creations? Otherwise this build seems to run out of chakras well before it gets up to steam.

    Keep in mind though if you are casting difficulty 60+ spells, every enlightened being on the planet is going to immediately know exactly who you are, where you are, and what you are doing, so this is actively putting a beacon on your head for every world power to come and harvest the ~50 odd ambrosia you are carrying around on you.


    Chaotic + Fetish is indeed a potent combo. I have been thinking about limiting it for a while. Honestly, that alone is pretty much all you need for this build.

    Neither chaotic nor heirloom can be innate, so having your fetish spellbook stolen / destroyed / disarmed is still a liability, and you are still fairly vulnerable to anti-magic.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2023-05-03 at 06:55 PM.
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