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Thread: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
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2023-05-01, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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"Trust bladescape, Shadow of Doubt,"
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2023-05-01, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
After folk talk more (and when I have more time), I'll weigh in on my "suspicion order".
I think AV > Persolus, but either talking more could change that.
Lady Ti is suspicious, but since she's seemingly not here to defend herself, a wagon on her builds no discussion. I'd rather Quattro test if she's Nash than us waste a Day lynching her.
Being inactive, posting just enough to not get autolynched*, could be a good play for Nash. Stay very under the radar until you control the vote.
*I haven't double-checked the autolynch rules, if any were stated
If the goal today is to catch Nash instead of just catch a wolf, then I'll swap my vote from BCH toAvatarVecna.
Let's get some discussion going.
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Elaboration: I do have a case against AV, but I want to reread D1/D2 some first to check some vibes and I don't have time now. Also, I'd rather hear AV talk some more before I say some stuff explicitly.Last edited by JeenLeen; 2023-05-01 at 12:05 PM.
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2023-05-01, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Debating a claim, primarily cuz it wouldn't make a difference
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2023-05-01, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
If you claim what I think you're gonna claim, I feel better about my vote on you.
If you claim something else, I'll point out the hints that make me think I know your claim.
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Just realized how unfair that is. I first read "wouldn't make a difference" as your claim wouldn't help or hurt the wolves/town, but I realize you probably meant "claiming won't change if folk vote you". Which I basically confirmed.
That's not fair, and sorry.
If you make a different claim than I think, and can show how you were hinting at it, I'll move my vote.
Either way, I'll show what hints I was thinking of, why I thought you were claiming <redacted>, and why I'd vote you if you claim <redacted>.
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Last edit then back to work: part of my case against AV is her responses to the Don Thousand gave me bad vibes. I'll try to put it into words better when I have time. (I don't think anything she said was definitely false, and it's helpful to think of possibilities, but something felt disingenuous and like what a wolf might want to sow in response to my post.)
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2023-05-01, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Number Roles (Alphabetical) Players (Alphabetical) Players (Order Of First Posts) 1 Alito Allando Let'sGetKraken 2 Anna Kaboom AvatarVecna AvatarVecna 3 Astral Batcathat Snowblaze 4 Bronk Stone bladescape Allando 5 Byron Book Wombat Persolus 6 Dextra Caedorus Caedorus 7 Don Thousand CaoimhinTheCape flat_footed 8 Dumon flat_footed Book Wombat 9 Flip Illven Batcathat 10 Girag JeenLeen Illven 11 Kari Tsukomo Lady Serpentine JeenLeen 12 Kathy Katherine Let'sGetKraken bladescape 13 Kite Persolus CaoimhinTheCape 14 Marin Snowblaze Lady Serpentine 15 Mizar 16 Nash 17 Nistro 18 Quattro 19 Quinton 20 Tori 21 Trey 22 Vector 23 Yuma Tsukomo
This is deliberately splitting up the hint and the part calling the post a hint. The hint is actually about something from the recruitment thread. Reads better like this:
Last bit is important. In a game with no wolf kill, the town vig roles are going to be important to the balance, one might think. Of course, quattro cant accidentally kill townies. Yuma could, but they're already gonna be careful about their picks for that very reason. If anna was in the game, and refusing to use her power for some reason, it would make sense to me that the narrator-with-power-rewriting-ability might rewrite a wolf killpower to gradually become more relevant as the game goes on, to make up for the kills Anna should be making but isn't.
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2023-05-01, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Well, I had the claim right, but misread the clues.
I was thinking AV is Anna Kaboom.
Her hints that I caught:
"triple". The only Role denoting a 3 (that I saw at least) was the 3-turn counter on Anna's power.
Town!AV is voidable, and it's proveable, but takes a long time to prove?
The phrasing she used is a little odd -- maybe on purpose to not make it completely clear who she is -- but together with the "triple" line made me feel I had a good grasp.
Also, AV is known not to like town vigilantes. Which Anna kinda is. So being willing to be voided makes a lot of sense and could be "pretty funny".
I can see this from AV being salty about having a role that does nothing for several turns.
Not so much a hint in itself, but makes sense if she is Anna.
Why I vote her if she's Anna:
If Vector is not in play, the wolves want fakeclaims that are fake-able, debateable.
Anna is probably one of the safest, since even if a counterclaim happens, nobody can be sure for several turns without a lynch.
And if no counterclaim happens, it's extremely hard to disprove. Wolf!AV can say the counter got reset because she targeted <person now confirmed town> N1, or say her target got lynched so she picked a new one, or something similar.
So being Anna in itself doesn't prove wolfiness, but it's a safe enough fakeclaim that it highlights AV when I have a pool of equally suspicious people.
Also, of townie roles to mislynch, Anna isn't the worst. She probably has her countdown on somebody suspicious, so her power (if it ever activates) is likely as useful as it's ever going to be. It also persists even if she dies. So a mislynch on Anna is better than on most, since it only loses a townie but not the townie's power.
If AV is town, I leave it to her discretion if she should keep private who the countdown is on, lie about it, or state it. I see pros and cons for each.
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2023-05-01, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Forgot a hint:
Annastrianna Nailo, priestess of Aidia in a discord/roll20 game that's me, Illven, and nobody else here.
I actually meant it in both those ways. Like...oh no, wolves know I have a vig power! Now they can...uh...do...something, with that info? If Mirin was still alive they could...void me? Or maybe they do have two voiders so the other one could...void me...hrm.
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I actually forgot about this hint too but yeah. The idea was actually a little sillier than that: flat voids me on the one night I use my power...and my target is him. If he's really the voider, nothing happens. If he's faking, he dies. I found that idea pretty funny, but that would involve letting the claim go untested for like another 4 days, and would involve me using my power, which I'm leery to do.
I can see this from AV being salty about having a role that does nothing for several turns.
Not so much a hint in itself, but makes sense if she is Anna.
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2023-05-01, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't the post about not being the alpha and vote on me also supposed to be a hint?
Anyhow, I'll have to think on this new information, but my spontaneous reaction is that Cao still seems like a good pick.
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2023-05-01, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
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2023-05-01, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-05-01, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
What we want right now is discussion.
I get the wagon of Cao, but the only real things against him is the maybe digging for info he shouldn't D1 and inactivity. But we've had lots of inactives and some more than him.
I still feel good keeping my vote on AV. Her claim set-up makes sense, but my point against her is that it's a relatively safe fakeclaim for wolves to make.
I'm too busy to really parse through her responses to the Don thing, but it makes a lot of sense for her to discredit Alito being in play if she's Alito. I guess that's the thrust of it. I could also see her saying some of that stuff if she's the Barian in cahoots with Don.
So, yeah, I'll stick with AV for now. Hoping a wagon and discussion form. But if a BCH wagon forms I'll be happy to switch my vote back to you.
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2023-05-01, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Sure, it's a pretty good fake claim and if there's anyone I assume would set up a fake claim well in advance, it's AV. Still seems risky without having Vector around (which the wolves probably doesn't have in the light of Allando's claim, at least assuming flat's town) since even if it'd take time to test a claim, a counter claim would make AV look quite bad.
To be clear, my vote on Cao isn't based on his activity level (aside from possibly the lack of a vote D2), but rather that what activity has been either seems NAI or suspicious.
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2023-05-01, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
*shrug*
I'm just making sure to check people's assumptions when they seem based on what you would want the game to be, rather than a reflection on anything that's been proven. You have zero proof Alito is in the game, just a vague hope that you personally had "solved the game" by accidentally stumbling on something, and are lashing out at someone pointing out the flaws in your argument.
If Xi is the neutral narrator randomly altering powers, then we're just kind of unlucky that a wolf kill power got upgraded...unless we're actually lucky in that the wolf isn't really in the game, and we have no way to be sure which of those worlds we live in. If Xi is the neutral narrator deliberately choosing to upgrade the powers of wolves who are actually in the game, I think it's weird you're less worried about a wolfsiding narrator than me possibly spreading a little bit of misinformation. I think it's just a bad way to run games that a narrator would instinctively lean away from, unless the game was advertised as fairly bastard from the get-go (which this one was not). "There's a random power going off every night" is a tiny bit bastard, but probably doesn't warrant a warning. "The narrator can change powers midgame and will do so to rebalance things to their whim, because the narrator has a secret wincon" is pretty bastard and would warrant a heads up.
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To play devil's advocate again (specifically for the purpose of clearing my pockets), we were already speculating yesterday that Allando/flat might actually be scumbuddies, and the fakeclaim/counterclaim was deliberate to get us to trust flat. If scumteam is Alito!AV/Marin!Allando/Vector![player], and me and Vector can see Allando is catching a lot of heat early D2, cooking up a plan where Allando deliberately fakeclaims, to bait a counterclaim, "confirming" that Vector isn't in play, that lends strength to whatever fakeclaims Vector and I are making, since people would "know" that wolves don't know the safe fakeclaims, and have already been "caught" making one.
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2023-05-01, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Sure, that's why my argument came with a "assuming flat's town" reservation. If that is what happened, you certainly managed to make lemons out of lemonade with w/w wagons, but I don't think it's the most likely scenario.
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Wait, that's not the way the saying goes. You know what I mean.
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2023-05-01, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
AV hasn't convinced me she's innocent, but I do want
Persolusto chime in more.
Cao, Book Wombat, Lady Ti, y'all here?
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Joke tangent: "playing Devil's advocate" has a pun-like feel when talking about if Vector or Alito are more likely in play.Last edited by JeenLeen; 2023-05-01 at 02:33 PM.
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2023-05-01, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
(Emphasis mine)
Look I don't necessarily agree with Jeen - it's a very specific argument and there's a reason I am not voting you right now - but this does come across as overly hostile towards someone just playing the game. Jeen's theory is certainly within the realm of possibility, but if you disagree (which is fair) you can shoot it down without criticizing Jeen themselves.Loser of Total War: Rise of Kingdoms
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2023-05-01, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Loser of Total War: Rise of Kingdoms
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2023-05-01, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
pokes in
Suddenly found the ability to be productive IRL so that was a longer break than planned. Will be around properly in probably just over an hour but in the meantime:
- I believe AV's claim, although that should go without saying since their softs are definitely real and I townread them anyway
- sudden influx of Caoimhin votes is making me paranoid. I will probably have to spend most of this phase trying to shut up the it's not just the low posters voice (and the Caoimhin and BCH are unpaired voice, since I could very well be wrong on the latter.)
- I have a really stupid reason to townread bladescapeI'm writing stuff, come and read it!
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2023-05-01, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Right so I'm really sorry for lack of activity, this week has been weird and tiring for a bunch of different reasons.
However if someone's willing to claim that they targeted me, I can clear them as town.
[If they don't then no worries]
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2023-05-01, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
I had some thoughts about how Persolus would look based on his answer, but this wasn't an answer I anticipated.
It's not giving away any info to the wolves, which is good move for a townie. It's also putting the "claim ball" in the other person's court, which is a good move. Especially since whoever targeted Persolus may or may not feel the need to get credibility, based on if they already joined the Lovers or not.
Wolf!Persolus might make these posts in order to try to get someone to claim, in order to put a player with a Role. But I don't see a ton of benefit there for the wolves... well, I guess unless Alito is in play and they do kinda have a NK, but I'm trying not to take that as a truth too strongly. I mean, maybe a wolf would say this as a lie or honestly to try to get a better sense of what is a safe fakeclaim, but doesn't feel that way.
Persolus is in no way cleared to me, but I appreciate the answer and nobody else is on his wagon, so let's look around.
Cao, your defense?
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What is it?
The "Marin hit me" thing is the main reason I believe him, plus I think his voting patterns make more sense if he's not a wolf. Not that blade can't be tricksey or bussing.
Also AV argued strong against him, and she's looking kinda suspicious to me. That puts him in a better light, at least gut feel-wise, even if it shouldn't logically do so.
In other words, I have townreads on blade, but I'd like to hear why I might be wrong.Last edited by JeenLeen; 2023-05-01 at 03:51 PM.
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2023-05-01, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Two things:
1) it takes the onus off of Persolus to actually do any claiming and gets town points for confirming someone else's identity, regardless of his role.
2) blade also turned the one vote onto allando into an actual wagon and, what's more importantly, stayed there. That's major towncred.Loser of Total War: Rise of Kingdoms
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2023-05-01, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
AV's tone in what Kraken responded to feels to me how AV sometimes posts when she is genuinely frustrated about being read as wolf for the wrong reasons.
Most times I've seen that she has been a wolf, albeit the reasons folk thought her to be a wolf were unfair.
Her having this tone doesn't necessarily mean she's a wolf. Maybe it's for rhetorical effect. Maybe she's annoyed that I was being unfair (which I admitted I was at first, before I said when I'd move my vote).
But it resonates wolfy based on my experience.
Thus, her tone is a mark against her in my book. Not a strong one, and one I feel funny voting around because I don't want to take offense, but, uh, still a mark against her.
I realize another mark against her is that she implied she never targeted anyone with her power. I'd think she would have targeted someone and just planned to re-target to reset the counter if they turned out towny. That seems the most versatile use of her power.
I get it makes sense given AV's attitude about town vig, but still sounds like a setup to not get caught in a lie.
Just more reason Anna makes a great fakeclaim for a wolf.
--- ---
I guess currently my wolfleans are
Batcathat (suspicious)
AV (suspicious, but in ways that aren't really proof by any means and could be bad set of circumstances)
Cao/Persolus/Lady Ti (not really sure about them, but some reason to suspect them. Persolus is probably towniest of all of these, especially given Kraken's points)
Snowblaze/bladescape (not really sure about them, but leaning town)
Kraken (strong townread)
flat_footed (basically mech cleared as town, barring a really niche case)
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2023-05-01, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Maybe one day people will realize I just tend to get emotional regardless of alignment. Oh well.
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2023-05-01, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-05-01, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Nope. Here's what happens:
1) I pick a random target I'm suspicious of N1 (let's say bladescape, since I was sussing bladescape at the time).
2) I get hanged D2 because it's me and I'm suspicious by default. I flip town. I can no longer re-target to reset the counter.
3) bladescape somehow lives to N4, and then blows up during the standby phase between N4/D5. They flip town. Oops.
Vig power is (IMO) already anti-town when you're able to base your suspicions on reads no more than one phase out of date. A vig power that gives you a kill N4 based on your N1 gutleans? And the only way to stop killing someone who's gone from scumlean to townlean is to doom someone else who's scumlean might also change over the course of the next week???
The only good thing about Anna's power is that even if I decide to kill people who turn out to be townies, I only kill one townie per three cycles at absolute best. But I actually have a secret technique that will allow me to guarantee I kill zero townies. It's called "DONT EVER USE MY POWER".
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I've considered using my power twice this game:
1) Targeting myself N1, and then never using it again. I decided against this.
2) Targeting flat as part of an arranged "test if he's really a voider" plan. I decided against this.
Until we get to a point where we have an outed wolf who can survive the lynch (...say, Nash), I have no intention to use my power on anybody.
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2023-05-01, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Last edited by Persolus; 2023-05-01 at 03:19 PM.
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2023-05-01, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Nah this is just AV getting frustrated/annoyed, no need to read more into it. The fact that you're doing so actually kind of seem like you're a wolf looking for more arguments against her, or you're like me and just tunneling hard (just not onto Snowblaze.
And AV famously dislikes vigs, she wouldn't shoot until she was sure. I can see why she would absolutely not want to use this power at all.
Not saying that AV is townlocked or anything. There's definitely room for suspicion, but neither of these points are things that are alignment indicative.Loser of Total War: Rise of Kingdoms
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2023-05-01, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-05-01, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!
Also, Persolus chiming in to quickly comment on gamestate is not improving his chances of being town
Persolus - either claim sacred IRL business or give us wolfreads, please.Loser of Total War: Rise of Kingdoms
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2023-05-01, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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