Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal!

[Allando]

AV's role is not going to be outed until they want it to be. Also, distressing that Caedorus, the one usually so against massclaiming, is already dropping hints. Maybe them saying they have dropped a hint is their clue and they're the two lovers? Makes no sense to claim that since if one of them dies the other dies as well, so there's no oppertunity for "I'm an innocent townie and my mason just died" stuff.
So, AV, Caedorus, are you trying a very bold wolf play but had you accidentally missed that in the lovers' role description? Or what's going on?

[Illven]

There is an approx zero percent chance that vecna would mistake lovers and masons.

[bladescape]

There is an approximate 0% chance that this is a stupid wolf play.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Hoo boy, it's been a while. I guess I'll throw a Vote: Book Wombat out there cause why not. Is there any new meta I should be aware of that changed since I last played?


Also want to ask about roles...

Bronk Stone – The Load
Your role in the show seems to be to complain a lot, be rude to people, never be right, and get rescued by Yuma. I’m sure you’ll help out. Eventually.
Tin Archduke
On your Main Phase 2: Target one Player. Change that Player’s Battle Position.


Neutral Roles



Don Thousand – Barian Deity: ??????? ?????? ruler of Barian World. ????? ?????? secretly ?????? ?????? with one of the Barian Emperors. ?????? ???? ???? Numeron Code.
Chaos Number 1000: Numerounius ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? all players ??? ???? ??? lose.

Rank-Up Magic: Numeron Force
????? ????? rewrite ????? ??????? numeron ?????? ??????

I saw there was basically a non-answer in the recruitment thread about "Battle Position". Does this mean anything to anyone? The fact that he's called "the Load" makes me think it doesn't do anything but I might just not know something.


And are we worried about the Neutral being in the game at all? Is 14 roles too small for a 3P?




Vote Count
Snowblaze (1): LetsGetKraken,
BatCatHat (1): AvatarVecna,
LetsGetKraken (1): Snowblaze
Allondo (1): Persolus, Caedorus,
Bladescape (1): flat_footed
Caedorus (2): Allondo, Illven
CaoimhinTheCape (1): BookWombat
Illven (1): BatCatHat,
AvatarVecna (1): JeenLeen
BookWombat (1): CaoimhinTheCape
No Vote: Lady Serpentine, Bladescape

[bladescape]

This is a vague statement about intent and to show you that I'm definitely town because I'm putting work into the game.

[AvatarVecna]

There is an approx zero percent chance that vecna would mistake lovers and masons.

You underestimate my ability to play without reading the setup.

[Snowblaze]

There is an approximate 0% chance that this is a stupid wolf play.

Agreed, hidden soft and all.

...okay, fine, Caedorus: the "Just Kidding" header came from bladescape editing it to soft that he wasn't actually softing anything, and then my message being a reply to his and yours to mine.

Anyway, general request to stop rolefishing and speculating about the nature of softs.

Also Caoimhin's vote count has made me think we should try and get wagons going but I'm actually mildly suspicious of Kraken so I won't switch. (Though insert obligatory "I'm bad at reading Kraken" here.)

[Batcathat]

Also Caoimhin's vote count has made me think we should try and get wagons going but I'm actually mildly suspicious of Kraken so I won't switch. (Though insert obligatory "I'm bad at reading Kraken" here.)

Yeah, wagons sounds good and I don't mind switching my vote, but I'm not sure where. Allando or Caedorus seems like the obvious choice, but aside from Caedorus' maybe-hint there's not a lot to go on. I guess I could see a wolfy Caedorus seeing a towny AV vaugly hint something and figure it would be smart to do the same thing, but I don't know. (So yes, I'm still the hedgiest one in all the land).

- - - Updated - - -

What the hell, it's better than a placeholder/revenge vote. Caedorus.

[bladescape]

Snowblaze hmmm

[JeenLeen]

The point of the claim's subtlety isn't to let people pick up on it now, it's so that I can point to it later as something very concrete that I've been setting up since literally my first post, without people really being able to do more than blindly guess until I tell them the trick. You don't have anything to worry about.

This post is also a hint.

I'll buy that for now.
I was mostly curious to see who might defend you, in case you flip wolf after all. I didn't actually think a strong wagon would start on you.

The fruit:

I haven't spotted the claim, but also I haven't particularly been looking for it.

I don't think it's wolfy, though.

If they're not hinting and just saying they did... D3/4/5, AV is alive and we have no reason to clear them, "So, AV, what have you been hinting at?" awkward silence "Okay, AV is a lying wolf, let's kill them".

So the hint is real regardless of their alignment. There are worlds where they're a wolf seeding a fakeclaim early, yes, but I don't see a particular reason to think we're living in them beyond "it's AV" which is not a valid reason.

I do generally agree with this, but the advantage of "hinting" like this is you get to see a number of flips and can better avoid a counterclaim while still getting towncred for nothing.

I'm not saying to vote AV but it is still a solid move from wolves, especially when it is this vague. I think it is firmly NAI and very AV in general.

I thought BCH was supposed to be the hedgy one?

Though also what I said earlier relies on wolf!AV picking a particular fakeclaim immediately since they're softing it now apparently.

Also if wolves have Vector they already know which roles aren't in play. (Look, I actually read the setup! Or, well, half-remembered that existing and went back to check it.)

I think I have an idea as to the claim.

That is all I'll say for now.

---

You underestimate my ability to play without reading the setup.

Still, something about this line sits uneasily with me. But I'm willing to see it as playful banter.

Hoo boy, it's been a while. I guess I'll throw a Vote: Book Wombat out there cause why not. Is there any new meta I should be aware of that changed since I last played?


Also want to ask about roles...



I saw there was basically a non-answer in the recruitment thread about "Battle Position". Does this mean anything to anyone? The fact that he's called "the Load" makes me think it doesn't do anything but I might just not know something.


And are we worried about the Neutral being in the game at all? Is 14 roles too small for a 3P?

Regarding Battle Position, I started writing up a theory based on how the card game worked at least ten years ago, but then realized that while sharing that might help the town figure out this power, the town knowing how it works probably isn't helpful. I presume that player knows how his own power works. So speculation likely just helps the wolves.

I definitely understand the temptation to delve into mechanics discussions when rules are unclear, but let's be mindful of when speculation might help the wolves.

I think discussing possible number of wolves and the neutral existing is potentially helpful. I think Xi would want to include the neutral for the fun/chaos it likely adds, but that's just a metagaming reason. Xi got annoyed one game when we almost solved it by massclaiming, and she said that if we continued she'd tell the wolves some safe fakeclaims; that makes me think it's likely the wolf who knows inactive roles is in the game.
I find the number of wolves this game hard to get a strong sense of since the wolf powers have some revenge powers and "does not die easily" powers.

Also Caoimhin's vote count has made me think we should try and get wagons going but I'm actually mildly suspicious of Kraken so I won't switch. (Though insert obligatory "I'm bad at reading Kraken" here.)

Snowblaze hmmm

I don't like voting someone for "hedgey" language that is really just noting some possibilities we don't have any way of knowing which is true. I'll join the Snowblaze for now.

[Snowblaze]

Good news: stuff has finally happened. Bad news: that stuff is people voting me.

Snowblaze hmmm

Any chance of an explanation?

Jeen, will explain my Kraken suspicion properly in a second.

- - - Updated - - -

So, yeah, "hedgy" wasn't really the main reason I was suspicious of this post.

I do generally agree with this, but the advantage of "hinting" like this is you get to see a number of flips and can better avoid a counterclaim while still getting towncred for nothing.

I'm not saying to vote AV but it is still a solid move from wolves, especially when it is this vague. I think it is firmly NAI and very AV in general.

My post this is responding to had an implied townlean on AV, I believe. This pings me as a) trying to shut down that townlean (which would imply wolf not wanting me to clear AV and so unpairs Kraken/AV imo) and b) denying responsibility with the "I'm not saying to vote AV".

But also it's early day one, very little has happened and I have nothing stronger to go on than this.

I don't like voting someone for "hedgey" language that is really just noting some possibilities we don't have any way of knowing which is true. I'll join the Snowblaze for now.

Eh, kind of disagree with the characterisation of that post, it's nor just setting out a list of possibilities it's setting out the particular possibility of AV being a wolf doing this.

Other reads so far: I do in fact have a townlean on AV, and also to a lesser extent Caedorus and BCH. bladescape's me vote is Fine(TM) pending explanation, not that I'm going to get one.

(Also I have deadlines coming up, am going out this evening and have discovered Champs specchat which between them are leaving me with less time than I'd like for this game.)

Thoughts on my Kraken suspicion and Jeen's suspicion of my Kraken suspicion, anyone?

[bladescape]

BookWombat

Decided we can vote out Snow a later day.

Or I can change my mind on her again cause that always works well.

- - - Updated - - -

Kraken suspicion is ~fine~

But also not that wolfy coming from him imo.

[Snowblaze]

BookWombat

Decided we can vote out Snow a later day.

Or I can change my mind on her again cause that always works well.

- - - Updated - - -

Kraken suspicion is ~fine~

But also not that wolfy coming from him imo.

Do you have any better ideas than Kraken? (Preferably also not me.)

That's open to anyone with actual wolfreads.

Also I just realised I have zero idea what vote movements have looked like so...

Caedorus 3: Allando, Illven, Batcathat
Allando 2: Persolus, Caedorus
Book Wombat 2: CaoimhinTheCape, bladescape
Snowblaze 2: Let'sGetKraken, JeenLeen
Let'sGetKraken 1: Snowblaze
bladescape 1: flat_footed
Batcathat 1: AvatarVecna
CaoimhinTheCape 1: Book Wombat

Not voting: Lady Serpentine

Am I missing someone?

[Allando]

My half-joking vote on Caedorus seems to have become a wagon. Are we all fine eliminating him?
I need to go check for people's reasoning behind other votes.

[Caedorus]

Was not expecting to come back to being top wagon. Also wasn't expecting to have my OMGUS-vote stick to the second wagon, although a two-vote wagon is barely a wagon at all.
Disagree on the Snow sus, her play seemed NAI (that is, solving af)
I wasn't "advertising roleclaiming", faaar from it; all I was doing was observing I shouldn't wolfread AV for dropping a hint when I had done the same.
My main scumreads would be everyone who hasn't posted yet.

- - - Updated - - -

By lack of anyone who hasn't posted, I look at those who have but one post: flat, book, pers and Caoimhin. Ignoring Book Wombat because he always Lurks. of these (assuming Snow's votecount is correct), Caoimhin is the only one with a vote.
Voting Persolus because I remember them being more active.

[Let'sGetKraken]

So, Snowblaze - to be clear, you're saying this (which is pointing out that something is NAI) is hedgy, right?

I do generally agree with this, but the advantage of "hinting" like this is you get to see a number of flips and can better avoid a counterclaim while still getting towncred for nothing.

I'm not saying to vote AV but it is still a solid move from wolves, especially when it is this vague. I think it is firmly NAI and very AV in general.

...but all of this isn't?

Agreed, hidden soft and all.

Also Caoimhin's vote count has made me think we should try and get wagons going but I'm actually mildly suspicious of Kraken so I won't switch. (Though insert obligatory "I'm bad at reading Kraken" here.)

So, yeah, "hedgy" wasn't really the main reason I was suspicious of this post.
My post this is responding to had an implied townlean on AV, I believe. This pings me as a) trying to shut down that townlean (which would imply wolf not wanting me to clear AV and so unpairs Kraken/AV imo) and b) denying responsibility with the "I'm not saying to vote AV".

But also it's early day one, very little has happened and I have nothing stronger to go on than this.

Do you have any better ideas than Kraken? (Preferably also not me.)

That's open to anyone with actual wolfreads.

Also I just realised I have zero idea what vote movements have looked like so...

Caedorus 3: Allando, Illven, Batcathat
Allando 2: Persolus, Caedorus
Book Wombat 2: CaoimhinTheCape, bladescape
Snowblaze 2: Let'sGetKraken, JeenLeen
Let'sGetKraken 1: Snowblaze
bladescape 1: flat_footed
Batcathat 1: AvatarVecna
CaoimhinTheCape 1: Book Wombat

Not voting: Lady Serpentine

Am I missing someone?

Also to respond to the "I'm not saying to vote AV" thing - I specifically pointed out that it was NAI. That is why I don't think it was worth voting for AV, not because of any hedgyness. I just don't think we're seen anything AI from AV so far.

My vote on Snow was originally just a joke (traditional enmity and all that) but I will stay right where I am for now. I don't think Snow is the kind of wolf that would go for such a blatant pairing with AV, which I think unpairs them, but this is a whole lot of suspicion over a who lot of nothing. That, with the votecounts and the "hey please someone else suggest a wagon I can jump on" is giving me bad gut feels. And that I am not hedging about

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Snow, your most recent votecount looks good to me.

Thoughts on my Kraken suspicion and Jeen's suspicion of my Kraken suspicion, anyone?

I don't buy the suspicion on Kracken. If anything, that post feels like it's shutting down a possible AV wagon regardless of what was before it so unless Kracken/AV are both Wolves I don't see any case to build around it.

I'm not convinced 100% convinced that Snow is a Wolf based on that Kracken suspicion but I'm fine enough with having pressure on Snow. Actually, I really like Kracken's post directly above this, that's swaying me more than Jeen's post was.




On that note, I'm also eyeing the Caedorus "wagon". Which is basically two random votes plus this post from BatCatHat:

Yeah, wagons sounds good and I don't mind switching my vote, but I'm not sure where. Allando or Caedorus seems like the obvious choice, but aside from Caedorus' maybe-hint there's not a lot to go on. I guess I could see a wolfy Caedorus seeing a towny AV vaugly hint something and figure it would be smart to do the same thing, but I don't know. (So yes, I'm still the hedgiest one in all the land).

- - - Updated - - -

What the hell, it's better than a placeholder/revenge vote. Caedorus.

I'm not convinced that a Wolf would see someone else give a hint and then decide to draw attention to themselves and claim the same thing. Maybe I just don't know Caedorus and they would do that but it feels like a weird reason to make someone the lead wagon BatCatHat

---

Side note: Lady Serpentine is listed as a player and I believe hasn't posted yet.



Vote Count
Snowblaze (2): LetsGetKraken, JeenLeen
BatCatHat (2): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape
LetsGetKraken (1): Snowblaze
Allondo (1): Persolus
Bladescape (1): flat_footed
Caedorus (3): Allondo, Illven, BatCatHat
CaoimhinTheCape (1): BookWombat
BookWombat (1): Bladescape
Persolus (1): Caedorus
No Vote: LadySerpentine

[Allando]

Was not expecting to come back to being top wagon. Also wasn't expecting to have my OMGUS-vote stick to the second wagon, although a two-vote wagon is barely a wagon at all.
Disagree on the Snow sus, her play seemed NAI (that is, solving af)
I wasn't "advertising roleclaiming", faaar from it; all I was doing was observing I shouldn't wolfread AV for dropping a hint when I had done the same.
My main scumreads would be everyone who hasn't posted yet.

"I wasn't advertising roleclaiming, I was only almost doing so myself"

By lack of anyone who hasn't posted, I look at those who have but one post: flat, book, pers and Caoimhin. Ignoring Book Wombat because he always Lurks. of these (assuming Snow's votecount is correct), Caoimhin is the only one with a vote.
Voting Persolus because I remember them being more active.

Has Serpentine made a post yet? Don't know.

[Caedorus]

"I wasn't advertising roleclaiming, I was only almost doing so myself"



Has Serpentine made a post yet? Don't know.

Okay this is weird. Fourteen people have posted and there are fourteen people on the player list, but Serp isn't in the "has-posted".

... The narrator, Xihirli. I'm stupid.
Don't feel like voting Ti bc probs just irl if she hasn't posted at all

[Let'sGetKraken]

Snow, your most recent votecount looks good to me.



I don't buy the suspicion on Kracken. If anything, that post feels like it's shutting down a possible AV wagon regardless of what was before it so unless Kracken/AV are both Wolves I don't see any case to build around it.

I'm not convinced 100% convinced that Snow is a Wolf based on that Kracken suspicion but I'm fine enough with having pressure on Snow. Actually, I really like Kracken's post directly above this, that's swaying me more than Jeen's post was.




On that note, I'm also eyeing the Caedorus "wagon". Which is basically two random votes plus this post from BatCatHat:



I'm not convinced that a Wolf would see someone else give a hint and then decide to draw attention to themselves and claim the same thing. Maybe I just don't know Caedorus and they would do that but it feels like a weird reason to make someone the lead wagon BatCatHat

---

Side note: Lady Serpentine is listed as a player and I believe hasn't posted yet.



Vote Count
Snowblaze (2): LetsGetKraken, JeenLeen
BatCatHat (2): AvatarVecna, CaoimhinTheCape
LetsGetKraken (1): Snowblaze
Allondo (1): Persolus
Bladescape (1): flat_footed
Caedorus (3): Allondo, Illven, BatCatHat
CaoimhinTheCape (1): BookWombat
BookWombat (1): Bladescape
Persolus (1): Caedorus
No Vote: LadySerpentine

Appreciate the validation, but I think this is just normal hedginess from BatCatHat. Having played with him before (hell, even Snow referenced it) he is famously hedge turn 1. This does not seem suspicious.

Caedorus is giving me gut pings for stating facts about the game, which is a slightly wolfy thing to do to appear more active. Slight wolflean there, but staying on Snow.

[Book Wombat]

I feel suspicious of Caoimhin currently, not sure why.

[AvatarVecna]

I feel suspicious of Caoimhin currently, not sure why.

Wolf goes awoo

[bladescape]

Wolf goes awoo

Truly cultured my good friend.

[Persolus]

Hello! Apologies, you are correct - I am usually a lot more active. Yesterday was a day.

Give me a chance to read through everything and I will begin being active again!

[JeenLeen]

Wolf goes awoo

AV, is that you saying Book Wombat looks wolfy, or you saying Cao looks wolfy?

[Illven]

My thought process is that Caedrous is more likely to be a wolf. I remember that I had to control their Cain instinct in Tarot club and thus they may be more inclined to murder Allando without me checking them in.

[AvatarVecna]

Truly cultured my good friend.

I also considered "rude and wolfy af" but that joke's a bit more context dependent

- - - Updated - - -

AV, is that you saying Book Wombat looks wolfy, or you saying Cao looks wolfy?

"Uh, yes, I too am suspicious of...[rolls die] somebody, for...reasons I'm not entirely sure of. There, that oughta look like participation."

[Batcathat]

I'm not convinced that a Wolf would see someone else give a hint and then decide to draw attention to themselves and claim the same thing. Maybe I just don't know Caedorus and they would do that but it feels like a weird reason to make someone the lead wagon BatCatHat

Sure, I'm not convinced either, but it's D1 so suspecting someone for voting someone else for less than ironclad reasons seems strange (and I kinda want to suspect you over it, but that would be wildly hypocritical, wouldn't it? )

That said, I did kinda like Caedorus reaction to the votes, but I haven't decided whether that means I think he's less wolfy or just a smart wolf.

[Book Wombat]

"Uh, yes, I too am suspicious of...[rolls die] somebody, for...reasons I'm not entirely sure of. There, that oughta look like participation."

Forsooth forsooth. I'm going to try my gut for a bit. Hopefully it won't escape it's flesh prison.

[Snowblaze]

Morning.

So, Snowblaze - to be clear, you're saying this (which is pointing out that something is NAI) is hedgy, right?

...but all of this isn't?

Your post initially pinged me as hedgy; on reread and actually writing it up I realised that wasn't the best way to put that into words, hence the second post you quoted.

I can vaguely see how you'd interpret my posts as hedgy.

Mmm. Turning things over in my mind. Could be wrong here.

Other thoughts: vague recollection of Wombat's meta does suggest that actually having reads is wolfy for him, but also I would feel terrible if he's town and we killed him for it.

Still, I think that's better than any of the other currently-existent wagons (wait, no, Caoimhin switched away, he's not even a wagon rn), which probably means I should explain my townleans on them.

Caedorus is in fact for the soft thing. Comes from town a lot more often than wolves ime, and if you're a wolf trying to seed a fakeclaim then you generally want to keep it well-hidden until you need it, not point out "hey, I softed stuff!"

BCH is for the Caedorus vote, while I disagree with it I think town!BCH tends to have at least some sort of a firm stance/effort to reach a conclusion through the hedging which that could be.

- - - Updated - - -

Welp, apparently this turned into a wallpost.

Spoiler: why I might be wrong on Kraken, and also vague thoughts about gamestate

Show

So yeah, the main thing giving me pause on Kraken is his suspicion of me. Ironic, I know, but town!Kraken tends to suspect me a lot - he definitely did so last game, and I'm sure I remember another game where he suspected me for some of my posts being filler-y and fluffy and was town.

That's one thing. Second is the voice in the back of my head that's saying are you just OMGUSing because he's suspecting you for bad reasons now? which might not be an entirely valid point but there is probably some level of bias influencing my suspicion now?

Then there's the "Snowblaze is hedgy" thing which. On the one hand, if I look at it in a vacuum "you're not allowed to suspect me for this thing you've also done" is a wolfy response to pressure.

On the other hand, we're not playing in a vacuum. And if I look at it from the perspective of someone who has a natural tendency to suspect my playstyle and is probably mildly frustrated for being suspected for (from his PoV) bad reasons/annoyed at me for being a hypocrite (which yes, I am, but hypocrisy isn't wolfy)... then I have no difficulty whatsoever seeing town do it.

And also the fact that no-one else agrees with me/is helping me pressure there is making me wonder if I'm just an idiot... wait, no, that's a bad read actually, if Snowblaze is pushing a townie wouldn't wolves be inclined to go along with it and help her out?

Not necessarily? If people are already suspecting Snowblaze (for pushing Kraken, in particular) wolves probably don't want to be associated with that. Which... actually that's a point there are worlds where wolves are jumping on bladescape's suspicion of me... Jeen/Caoimhin? Potentially, would need to check.

There are also worlds where bladescape is a wolf undermining my credibility, since I have a bad habit of not considering wolf!bladescape worlds sufficiently. Does that imply I'm more likely to be right on Kraken? ...I have no idea.

Eh. None of this really leads me to any firm conclusions other than "I now have zero confidence in my Kraken suspicion but will be leaving my vote there for lack of better ideas".

You may now justifiably wolfread me for hedging.

Also if I start hyperposting more than I have so far before EOD (note to self: figure out when EOD is and try and be around for it) then please yell at me and inform me that my deadlines are more important than this game.

- - - Updated - - -

[Snow's] play seemed NAI (that is, solving af)

Also would I be able to add this to the quote pile for my Champs bio (assuming this game ends before thay one starts)?

- - - Updated - - -

AV's role is not going to be outed until they want it to be. Also, distressing that Caedorus, the one usually so against massclaiming, is already dropping hints. Maybe them saying they have dropped a hint is their clue and they're the two lovers? Makes no sense to claim that since if one of them dies the other dies as well, so there's no oppertunity for "I'm an innocent townie and my mason just died" stuff.
So, AV, Caedorus, are you trying a very bold wolf play but had you accidentally missed that in the lovers' role description? Or what's going on?

This post is stuck inside my brain and I can't work out what it says about Allando's alignment, part of me wants to suspect it for throwing shade at the softs but the other part says wolves fake-softing lovers is a wild enough theory to show lack of TMI (unless of course wolves are actually fake-softing lovers in which case a) lolme and b) Allando never points this out as their partner.)

Yells at self

My deadlines are more important than this game, even if I have just found motivation for the latter.

If my ramblings are more incoherent than normal it's because stress and sleep-deprivation.