OOTS #1279 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

Having people who weren't Draketeeth guarding the pyramid would have helped, though.

And there it is: "Familicide was a predictable vulnerability" -- mark your Scribbler Discussion bingo cards, folks!

Jokes aside, I still take the same thing from this discussion as I have from all other recent comparisons between the Scribblers' gate defenses: some of them were better than others, some were more future-proofed, but they all had weaknesses, and despite those weaknesses they were all Epic-level defenses, and the moral of the story remains the same: they all relied on their individual values & abilities instead of the strength of their team, and that is ultimately why each failed.

[Peelee]

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

Looks about as lucrative as real-world contractors.

[LtPowers]

Why do I get the feeling this is Chekhov's Soup?


Powers &8^]

[bunsen_h]

The postmaster had an in-law looking for a job, and it is well known that someone has to die before a position in civil service opens up.

Or had a disliked in-law doing delivery, and got a bright idea for where to send them.

[Metastachydium]

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

Not when random locations just get dungeonized automatically and free of charge (or at negative cost, after accounting for the drapes).

One can "walk the earth, free of earthly cares" and still check in periodically to see if the tomb needs restocking. They are not mutually exclusive. I work Monday to Friday, but Weekends? Weekends are allllll Wintermoot-time.

Besides, we see her having a Purple Worm delivered in the crayons of time, so there is apparently contractors you can use to purchase stock if you don't want to get them yourself.

Shop Smart. Shop S-monster-Mart.

I mean, I've always read the whole "left it to fend for itself" thing (which she confirmed was the plan) as a tad more than taking vacation days and having Serini time at the weekends.

[Wintermoot]

I mean, I've always read the whole "left it to fend for itself" thing (which she confirmed was the plan) as a tad more than taking vacation days and having Serini time at the weekends.

Great. I've always read it as something akin to "Will check in periodically (once a year, once every couple years) to restock the dungeons if needed. Which seems like a working solution when there isn't a epic level adventuring party engaged at working their way through the line up. Seems like most average level adventuring parties would be wiped out by whatever can challenge team evil.

Seems like a large vast grey sea between two equally valid ways of reading it.

[brian 333]

And there it is: "Familicide was a predictable vulnerability" -- mark your Scribbler Discussion bingo cards, folks!

Jokes aside, I still take the same thing from this discussion as I have from all other recent comparisons between the Scribblers' gate defenses: some of them were better than others, some were more future-proofed, but they all had weaknesses, and despite those weaknesses they were all Epic-level defenses, and the moral of the story remains the same: they all relied on their individual values & abilities instead of the strength of their team, and that is ultimately why each failed.

Lirian's defense did not fail; the gate was destroyed during the attempt to capture it.

Dorukon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed after it was used to destroy Xykon.

Soon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed moments before its defenders completely and utterly destroyed Team Evil.

Girard's defense didn't fail. After the Vector Legion was faked out of looking deeper into its hiding place, Roy intentionally destroyed the gate on the assumption that TE would not fall for the same gambit that defeated the VL.

So, the failure rate of the defenses in every scenario is 0%. None of the gates have so far been defeated by the bad guys.

[CantRecoverOld]

A cursory Googling suggests Matt Groening, Life in Hell.

I have all of Goening's Life In Hell books. But they are in boxes. I am not remembering, though. Someone please remind my leaky memory?

[DavidSh]

I have all of Goening's Life In Hell books. But they are in boxes. I am not remembering, though. Someone please remind my leaky memory?

Actual pointers to the panel that contains the quote all seem to be copyright violations, but it can be described as a set of several quotes about love, falsely attributed to various philosophers. This one, given below, is attributed to Nietzsche.

can't bet against that.

Deeply gratified to see that the ice weasels have a home in the frozen tundra.

Spoiler: The Matt Groening Quote

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“Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.”

I like the ref to a cartoon writer ... my first exposure to MG was his comic strips, in an Austin newspaper, lwell before the Simpsons ever existed.

[Wintermoot]

Lirian's defense did not fail; the gate was destroyed during the attempt to capture it.

Dorukon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed after it was used to destroy Xykon.

Soon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed moments before its defenders completely and utterly destroyed Team Evil.

Girard's defense didn't fail. After the Vector Legion was faked out of looking deeper into its hiding place, Roy intentionally destroyed the gate on the assumption that TE would not fall for the same gambit that defeated the VL.

So, the failure rate of the defenses in every scenario is 0%. None of the gates have so far been defeated by the bad guys.

What exactly is your definition of failure?

Because its very different than mine.

The purpose of the "gate" is to KEEP THE RIFT FROM GROWING LARGER AND THE SNARL FROM CROSSING THROUGH IT. Period.

The purpose of the "gate defenses" is to keep the gate safe and free to do its job. Meaning, very primarily, not being destroyed.


Lirian's Gate and Dorokun's gate were both destroyed. We know that Dorokun posited that the Gate could theoretically be used to weaponize the rift, but he didn't posit that until after they have built the gates. When he posited it, he decided to put in a self destruct option. We can assume or not assume that he told Lirian and that's why she set hers up to be destroyed as well. If you want to give them that, then their gates "being destroyed" can theoretically be seen as "not failing" But not being destroyed is undeniably preferable to being destroyed. So saying "their gate defenses didn't fail" becuase they rigged a "gate being blown up if all else fails" as a win-factor. I don't agree with that assertion, but I'm not going to argue it either.

The fact that Miko and Roy "had" to destroy the gate to emulate that self-destruct failsafe, doesn't mean the gate or gate defenses in Soon or Girard's complexes "succeeded" either.

[Precure]

Liroan, Dorukan (and maybe Soon as well?) serms to believe that destroying the gate is better option than let it be used by someone evil. Hence they planned their defense in that way.

[Vikenlugaid]

Even if they planned to destroy the gates before someone weaponizes them, that destruction is preferable only in one scenario: after all the defenses have failed.

[brian 333]

In all four cases the defenses succeeded. The gates were not captured by the bad guys.

It was, in every case, the gate defenders who destroyed the gate. Treants who didn't know how to extinguish fire, a boy-child who couldn't resist playing with buttons, a self-appointed judge of right and wrong, and an adventurer who could not trust anyone but himself, all of whom had assumed a personal responsibility to protect the gates and the world, were responsible for actually destroying the gates. Team Evil never even got close to their ultimate goal because of the gate defenses in all but the last case.

[danielxcutter]

Or had a disliked in-law doing delivery, and got a bright idea for where to send them.

You know what they say; the difference between outlaws and in-laws is that outlaws are wanted!

Even if they planned to destroy the gates before someone weaponizes them, that destruction is preferable only in one scenario: after all the defenses have failed.

If the Scribblers could agree on one thing, it’s that getting the world taken over or destroyed due to the Rifts was a fail state.

[Rrmcklin]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

[Ruck]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

I don't think we have either (other than what we know of her relationship with Dorukan). I think the Giant mentioned in a commentary, though, that at some point this book we would learn more of the full story behind the separation of the Scribble, and we have one living member left now who's with the Order to tell it.

[Larsaan]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

As a general rule, druids tend to be quite opposed to using their powers to create wholly artificial systems, just on the principle that it goes against the concept of "untamed nature".

[spruce56]

Don't know if it's just something funky with cookies/cache, but for me, 1279 isn't showing up on the main https://www.giantitp.com/ page, but it appears if I click a particular comic page like https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html

[Provengreil]

As a general rule, druids tend to be quite opposed to using their powers to create wholly artificial systems, just on the principle that it goes against the concept of "untamed nature".

Start of Darkness spoiler:

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But Lirian has done exactly that at least once. Her gate defense was the only one that outright scored a victory against Xykon, and she imprisoned him in just such a situation. So she's not against it, at least where gate defenses would have been concerned.

[Vikenlugaid]

In all four cases the defenses succeeded. The gates were not captured by the bad guys.

It was, in every case, the gate defenders who destroyed the gate. Treants who didn't know how to extinguish fire, a boy-child who couldn't resist playing with buttons, a self-appointed judge of right and wrong, and an adventurer who could not trust anyone but himself, all of whom had assumed a personal responsibility to protect the gates and the world, were responsible for actually destroying the gates. Team Evil never even got close to their ultimate goal because of the gate defenses in all but the last case.

SPOILERS OF START OF DARKNESS

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Well, in Lirian's case, the defenses didn't succeded at all, they were all obliterated.

[Cryos]

HA! Ice Weasels!

[brian 333]

SPOILERS OF START OF DARKNESS

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Well, in Lirian's case, the defenses didn't succeded at all, they were all obliterated.

Spoiler: Spoiler of Spoiler of Start of Darkness

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In Lirian's case, in TEs first attack her defenses worked 100%. TE was defeated and imprisoned.
In TE's second attack, the guardians of the gate ripped it to shreds before TE could capture it.

[Vikenlugaid]

Spoiler: Spoiler of Spoiler of Start of Darkness

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In Lirian's case, in TEs first attack her defenses worked 100%. TE was defeated and imprisoned.
In TE's second attack, the guardians of the gate ripped it to shreds before TE could capture it.

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Winning the first assault bit then losing the second is still failing. And the defenses failed, is not like vs Soon, or Dorukan's sigil, where Xykon couldn't get the gate BECAUSE of the defenses, in Lirian's case the defenses didn't stop Xykon, and only an accident caused by Redcloak "saved the day", not the defenses, the defenses totally failed there.

[Provengreil]

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Winning the first assault bit then losing the second is still failing. And the defenses failed, is not like vs Soon, or Dorukan's sigil, where Xykon couldn't get the gate BECAUSE of the defenses, in Lirian's case the defenses didn't stop Xykon, and only an accident caused by Redcloak "saved the day", not the defenses, the defenses totally failed there.

Spoiler: So many spoiler bars!

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Going 1 for 2 is hardly "obliterated/didn't succeed at all", especially when the enemy comes back the second time with near-perfect knowledge of, and hard counters to, your primary defense mechanisms.

Also, the fact that Kim Soon himself agreed that destroying his gate was a good thing, plus Dorukan outright having a self destruct rune, suggests to me that the treants breaking the gate was intentional, as a denial mechanism. If an epic druid can't handle a fairly regular fire, even mid-combat, the threat is so great that the security of the gate is at risk, and is therefore broken. So I don't consider the fire to have "saved the day" by accident, but rather as one permutation of an intentional self-destruct feature.

[Vikenlugaid]

Spoiler: So many spoiler bars!

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Going 1 for 2 is hardly "obliterated/didn't succeed at all", especially when the enemy comes back the second time with near-perfect knowledge of, and hard counters to, your primary defense mechanisms.

Also, the fact that Kim Soon himself agreed that destroying his gate was a good thing, plus Dorukan outright having a self destruct rune, suggests to me that the treants breaking the gate was intentional, as a denial mechanism. If an epic druid can't handle a fairly regular fire, even mid-combat, the threat is so great that the security of the gate is at risk, and is therefore broken. So I don't consider the fire to have "saved the day" by accident, but rather as one permutation of an intentional self-destruct feature.

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But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

[brian 333]

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But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

Spoiler: Spoiler x3

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The defenses defeated Team Evil. Lirian declined to kill them quickly, and an extraordinarily rare, virtually inconceivable event occurred: Redcloak, in the absence of the acouterments (120,000 gp value and all the laboratory/temple requirements for crafting magical items,) usually needed to create a phylactery was able to turn a dying sorcerer into a lich.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to claim that something that happened in the story should not have happened. What I am saying is that it was something nobody could have anticipated occurring.

Attack #2 was successful, but Team Evil did not capture the gate because, as I said in my original post, those charged with defending it destroyed it instead.

To date, Team Evil has not captured, nor have they destroyed, any gate.

[Provengreil]

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But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

The point of the defenses of the gates is to keep them out of the hands of those who would cause extreme harm by controlling them, and keep the snarl contained so long as even one still exists. If Lirian's defenses had failed, then Team Evil would have a gate. Its destruction may be the worst possible success state, but in terms of the main goal it's still a success.

However, succeeding in the same way is no longer possible because the second failure condition is now in play, that no more gates would remain. This was explicitly discussed in the strip just a few comics back.
EDIT: typo.

[Liquor Box]

It seems a bit semantic to argue whether the gate being destroyed is a success or a failure. Obviously the preferred outcome for the defender is that any attacker is defeated with the gate left intact. The worst outcome is the gate falling into the hands of someone like Xykon. The gate being destroyed sits somewhere between those two outcomes. It means neither the best, nor the worst outcome was achieved. Whether you view that as a success or failure just depends on perspective.

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A couple of points on LIrian's.
First, I don't think its destruction was planned by Lirian. It was presented as if the gate wouldn't have been broken if Redcloak hadn't cast a fire spell - certainly Xykon blames Redclaok for it.
Second, I just want to remake the point that, although Xykon and Redcloak's solution to Lirian's disease/imprisonment attack was creative and required an unusual confluence of circumstances, it wasn;t the only solution. There were lots of solutions that might have rendered attackers immune from the disease, or allowed them to escape. It's not like Xykon becoming a LIch was the only possible way. For example, Redclaok suggests that Heal might have worked if he had been high enough level to cast it (as he is now).

[Vikenlugaid]

Spoiler: Spoiler x3

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The defenses defeated Team Evil. Lirian declined to kill them quickly, and an extraordinarily rare, virtually inconceivable event occurred: Redcloak, in the absence of the acouterments (120,000 gp value and all the laboratory/temple requirements for crafting magical items,) usually needed to create a phylactery was able to turn a dying sorcerer into a lich.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to claim that something that happened in the story should not have happened. What I am saying is that it was something nobody could have anticipated occurring.

Attack #2 was successful, but Team Evil did not capture the gate because, as I said in my original post, those charged with defending it destroyed it instead.

To date, Team Evil has not captured, nor have they destroyed, any gate.

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I never said that it was fair for Lirian, but the defenses failed anyway, the defenses didn't defeated team evil, only won the first assault, but not the full battle. Again, the gate should be destroyed only when everything else have failed, obviously, and that's not part of the defenses, the definition of "defense" is to protect something from harm or danger, not to destroy it yourself. Even if they planned to destroy the gates before letting someone use them, that's something apart from the defenses and only to use it when the defenses have failed, because if not, it is absurd to destroy a safe gate.

I mean, if my PC has a virus, the defense is the antivirus, and if it fails defeating the virus, i should format the PC. Ok, at the end I win, but the defense failed, I won only because I did a drastic action once the defense failed, an action I wouldn't have needed to do if the defense wouldn't have failed.

And yes, Xykon has been denied of his price til now, but that's not really a victory for the world, the gods were really really near of destroying the world anyway, and they would have destroyed it if it wasn't because some of the northen gods think this cicle is special because of the purple quiddity and that.

And there is still the debate if the world can survive long time with some gates destroyed, their rifts opened, even if some other gates were still intact. If only one gate intact is enough, why take so much trouble finding, sealing and defending 5.

[unbeliever536]

I think panel 5 is my favorite in the extremely high quality "Roy and Belkar obliquely discuss character development" series of exchanges.