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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    After shopping around for a system that meets my needs out-of-the-box for a couple months, playing around with homebrewing a system from scratch for a couple weeks, and playing with re-balancing Legend for a couple weeks, I've come to the conclusion that what I should be doing is trying again to fix Mutants & Masterminds 3e.

    Abilities
    Eliminate Fighting, leading to seven ability scores, roughly equivalent to D&D's except that Dexterity is split into Dexterity and Agility. Give each of them a different cost, so that they will be worth it (and then some) IF you want most/all of the things they give you.

    Lots of builds still may still want to buy what they care about from Dexterity and Presence instead of buying the Abilities, but at least the Abilities won't be trap options for newbies anymore.

    Strength • 2 PP/rank
    Affects: Athletics (Skill); Grab DC; Strength-based Damage DCs; lifting capacity.

    Stamina • 2.5 PP/rank
    Affects: Fortitude (Defense); Toughness (Defense).

    Agility • 1.5 PP/rank
    Affects: Dodge (Defense); Acrobatics (Skill); Stealth (Skill); initiative.

    Dexterity • 2 PP/rank
    Affects: Parry (Defense); Accuracy (Skill); Burglary (Skill); Expertise: Video Games (Skill); Legerdemain (Skill); Vehicles (Skill).

    Intellect • 1.5 PP/rank
    Affects: Arcana (Skill); Expertise (most sub-Skills); Investigation (Skill); Technology (Skill); Treatment (Skill).

    Awareness • 1.5 PP/rank
    Affects: Willpower (Defense); Insight (Skill); Notice (Skill); Survival (Skill).

    Presence • 1 PP/rank
    Affects: Glibness (Skill); Intimidation (Skill); Leadership (Skill); Performance (Skill).
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-04-28 at 07:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Defenses
    Keeping the RAW Power Level Limits:
    • Dodge + Toughness <= PL * 2
    • Parry + Toughness <= PL * 2
    • Fortitude + Willpower <= PL * 2

    Also, requiring that all Defenses be >= PL / 2 on all builds.

    Dodge • 1 PP/rank
    Based on Agility. No longer used to resist Grabs.

    Parry • 1 PP/rank
    Based on Dexterity. Now used to resist Grabs.

    Toughness • can't be bought directly
    Stamina (Ability) + Protection (Power) + Defensive Roll (Advantage) ranks.
    Note that Protection's base cost will increase to 1.5 PP/rank.

    Fortitude • 1 PP/rank
    Based on Stamina.

    Willpower • 1 PP/rank
    Based on Awareness.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-04-28 at 07:20 AM.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Skills
    Skills cost 1/3-PP/rank instead of 1/2-PP/rank. PL Limit is still 10+PL.

    Accuracy (DEX; specialty required)
    Replaces the RAW "Combat" skills.
    Specialty should be something like Unarmed Damage, Grabbing, Throwing, Swords, Axes, Fire Control, or Guns, etc.
    Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 1 for 1 PP allows you to add a second specialty to the skill, or to logically broaden it to something like "all melee weapons" or "all ranged weapons." Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 2 for 2 PP allows the skill to apply to any attack roll (up to PL limits).
    Using the skill outside its Specialt(ies) incurs a -5 penalty.

    Acrobatics (AGL; Trained Only)
    Absorbs the Contorting and Escaping abilities from RAW "Sleight of Hand", as well as RAW functions.

    Arcana (INT; Trained Only)
    Replaces "Expertise: Magic".

    Athletics (STR)
    Includes riding a living mount as well as RAW functions.

    Burglary (DEX)
    Takes over the "pick a lock" and "disable a trap" roles from the Technology skill, when the lock or trap is at least partly mechanical.

    Expertise (INT usually; sub-Skill required; Trained Only)
    Unlike other Skills that require a specialty, Expertise sub-Skills are bought separately; Variable Descriptor can't be used to broaden your Expertise.
    Example sub-Skills include Art, Business, Cooking, Criminal, Current Events, History, Journalism, Law, Military, Politics, Pop Culture, Psychology, Science, Streetwise, Tactics, Theology.

    Glibness (PRE)
    Used to "fast-talk" or persuade someone, regardless of whether you are being honest or not.

    Insight (AWE)
    Unchanged.

    Intimidation (PRE)
    Unchanged.

    Investigation (INT; Trained Only)
    Unchanged.

    Leadership (PRE)
    Used to socially persuade when long-term close relationships are in play, or when ethos of trust are key.

    Legerdemain (DEX)
    Absorbs the functions of RAW "Sleight of Hand," except those absorbed by Acrobatics.

    Notice (AWE)
    Re-name of Perception.

    Performance (PRE; specialty required)
    Specialty can be a specific musical instrument or something like Singing, Oration, or Dance, or it can be "Bodily Deception", used without penalty for things like Feinting, Tricking, and resisting Assessment.
    Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 1 for 1 PP allows you to add a second specialty to the skill, or to logically broaden it to something like "all string instruments" or "all wind instruments." Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 2 for 2 PP allows the skill to apply to any specialty.
    Using the skill outside its Specialt(ies) incurs a -5 penalty.

    Stealth (AGL)
    Unchanged.

    Survival (AWE; Trained Only)
    Used to test wilderness survival skills or generally being "in tune with nature."

    Technology (INT; specialty required; Trained Only)
    Specialty can be a category like Software, Mechanical, or Chemical.
    Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 1 for 1 PP allows you to add a second specialty to the skill. Purchasing Enhanced Extra: Variable Descriptor 2 for 2 PP allows the skill to apply to any specialty.
    Using the skill outside its Specialt(ies) incurs a -5 penalty.

    Treatment (INT; Trained Only)
    Unchanged.

    Vehicles (DEX; Trained Only)
    Unchanged.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Advantages

    Basically Unchanged (for now):
    Accurate Attack; Agile Feint; All-Out Attack; Animal Empathy; Benefit (except Ambidexterity); Contacts; Defensive Attack; Defensive Roll; Diehard; Eidetic Memory; Extraordinary Effort; Fascinate; Favored Foe; Grabbing Finesse; Hide in Plain Sight; Improved Aim; Improved Defense; Improved Disarm; Improved Grab; Improved Hold; Improved Initiative; Improved Smash; Improved Trip; Improvised Tools; Improvised Weapon; Inspire; Interpose; Jack-of-All-Trades; Minion; Move-By Action; Power Attack; Precise Attack; Prone Fighting; Redirect; Second Chance; Set-Up; Sidekick; Skill Mastery; Startle; Takedown; Teamwork; Weapon Bind; Weapon Break; Well-Informed.

    Eliminated:
    Artificer; Beginner's Luck; Benefit: Ambidexterity (use a Complication if off-hand penalties cause failures); Close Attack; Equipment; Fast Grab; Favored Environment; Fearless; Great Endurance; Improved Critical; Instant Up; Inventor; Leadership; Quick Draw; Ranged Attack; Ritualist; Seize Initiative; Throwing Mastery; Tracking; Trance.

    Assessment
    Automatically allows you a (secret) Insight check against every creature you observe whose Power Level is not immediately obvious from their demeanor. With a successful check, you learn that their Power Level is higher or lower than it first appears. With two degrees of success, you learn their true Power Level (give or take one level).

    Daze
    Can be based on Glibness, Intimidation, or Performance: Bodily Deception. Can explicitly be used as a Move Action for a -5 penalty.

    Evasion
    If you succeed on your Dodge check to evade an Area effect (with the bonus from this Advantage), you can also spend a Hero Point to automatically succeed at resisting the effect.

    Flirtatious
    Basically the same as RAW "Attractive"; just re-named to hopefully make it clearer which Heroes should take it rather than just being generally good-looking.

    Languages
    Provides benefits equivalent to +1 ranks of the RAW version; but Native Language counts against languages known.
    I.e. zero ranks of this Advantage means only Native Language; 1 rank adds 1 language; 2 ranks mean 4 languages known (including Native); 3 ranks mean 8 languages known (including Native); 4 ranks mean 16 languages known (including Native).

    Luck
    Includes sub-Advantages for different uses of Hero Points, as per the optional rule in Power Profiles. Total Luck ranks <= PL; individual sub-Luck ranks <= PL/2.
    Luck recharges on a Quest basis rather than a Scene basis.

    Skill Knack
    This gives +5 to a skill situationally, such as Stealth in a particular terrain type, or an interaction skill used in combat as a Move Action (cancelling out the usual -5 penalty). Using this instead of Limited skills is encouraged. This bonus does not allow exceeding PL limits.

    Swift Tracker
    Tracking can be done by default use of Skills, but this Advantage lets you move at full speed while Tracking.

    Taunt
    Is based on the new Glibness skill.

    Ultimate Effort
    Categories allowed with this Advantage are expanded to include "Skills with <5 Ranks" (replacing Beginner's Luck) and "Initiative" (replacing Seize Initiative).

    Uncanny Dodge
    Gives +3 to Active Defenses while Vulnerable, cancelling out (some of) the penalty for Vulnerable.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-04 at 07:00 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Powers

    Under Extras and Flaws, I'm just listing differences from the RAW (and ones that aren't going to be covered under my general Modifiers post).

    Basically Unchanged (for now):
    Comprehend; Concealment; Damage; Deflect; Enhanced Extra; Enhanced Trait; Environment; Feature; Immortality; Luck Control; Mind Reading; Move Object; Quickness; Regeneration.

    Eliminated (or renamed to a Power below):
    Burrowing (use Permeate instead); Create (use Transform and/or Affliction instead); Elongation (use the Reach Extra); Extra Limbs; Growth (use a Feature and a Complication instead, 1 rank of Feature replacing 4 ranks of Growth); Illusion (use Figment); Insubstantial; Leaping (use Flight with Flaws); Morph (use Glamer or Metamorphosis); Nullify (use Weaken with All-Or-Nothing Extra); Shrinking (use a Feature and a Complication instead, 1 rank of Feature replacing 4 ranks of Shrinking); Swimming (use Movement); Teleport (use the Teleport Extra on Speed instead, or Warp replacing Extended Teleport).

    Affliction • 1 PP/rank
    Base DC 15. Can be resisted and overcome by any of the standard five Defenses by default.
    (1st/2nd Degree failure) Dazed, Entranced, Exhausted, Immobilized, Impaired, Prone, Vulnerable
    (3rd Degree failure) Defenseless, Disabled, Stunned
    (4th Degree failure) Compelled (but keeps making resistance checks), Incapacitated, Transformed

    Extras:
    • Controlling: +1 PP/rank. Allows an Affliction with a 4th degree of "Compelled" to have a 5th degree that is "Controlled," which does not get Resisted each round.
    • Oblivious: +1 flat PP. "Disabled" condition also includes making target Unaware in one sense type (penalties do not stack).

    Flaw:
    • Paralysis: -1 flat PP. 4th-degree condition is Paralyzed.

    Communication • 2 PP/rank
    Communication is one-way by default (unless target has this power in order to be able to respond). Sense can't be Mental by default.
    • 1 Rank: 300 ft or so
    • 2 Ranks: 1 mile or so
    • 3 Ranks: 1500 miles or so
    • 4 ranks: within a planetary system
    • 5 ranks: within a solar system
    • 6 ranks: anywhere

    Extras:
    • Symmetric: +1 PP/rank; communication becomes two-way.
    • Telepathic: +1 PP/rank; sense type is Mental.

    Figment • 1 PP/rank
    Must have at least one Extra to give it sense types.

    Extras:
    • Visual: +1 PP/rank
    • Auditory: +1 flat PP
    • Thermal: +1 flat PP
    • Misc Sense Type: +1 flat PP/rank

    Flight • 4 PP/rank
    Flight at a speed rank equal to your normal Speed plus your Flight rank minus 2.

    Extras:
    • Spacewarp: +1 flat PP/degree; can go much faster through space in noncombat situations, allowing travel at "the speed of plot" to distant places. 1 degree for within a planetary system; 2 degrees for within a solar system; 3 degrees for nearby solar systems; 4 degrees for distant solar systems; 5 degrees for other galaxies.

    Flaws:
    • Gliding: -1 PP/rank, can’t fly "up"
    • Levitation: -1 PP/rank, can’t fly sideways
    • Fragile: -1 PP/rank, flight can be "interrupted" for 1 turn if you fail any resistance check
    • Swinging: -1 PP/rank, requires "anchor points"
    • Alight: -1 PP/rank, requires landing (or falling) after each use of Flight
    • Jet: -1 flat PP; requires air or similar fluid to fly in
    • Straight: -1 flat PP; can only fly in a straight line each Move Action
    • Winged: -1 flat PP; fall if Immobilized. Incompatible with Alight and Continuous.
    • Faster than Ground: -3 PP/rank; your first two ranks of Flight cannot qualify for this flaw.

    Glamer • 2 PP/rank
    Change your appearance: 1 form for 1 Rank; narrow group of forms for 2 Ranks; broad group of forms for 3 Ranks; any form of the right size for 4 Ranks.

    Healing • 3 PP/rank
    Base DC is 20. Failing by only one or two degrees doesn't prevent further attempts. Heals least-degree conditions first, then more serious conditions, just like Regeneration.

    Flaw:
    • Limited to living targets: -1 PP/rank.

    Immunity • 1 PP/rank
    Poison effects and Fear effects are 2-rank options. Otherwise by RAW.

    Luck Control • 3 PP/rank
    Extra:
    • Inspire: +1 flat PP/rank; (to be added later)

    Metamorphosis • 5 PP/rank, must buy at least 2 ranks
    One alternate stat block per rank beyond the first rank. All alternate stat blocks must have this power.

    I'm trying to make this expensive enough that it's not broken, but I don't want to ban it completely because I love this kind of character.

    Movement • 1 PP/rank
    Environmental Adaptation (underwater or zero gravity): 1 rank
    Not Vulnerable While Climbing: 1 rank
    Climb Ceilings as Easily as Walls: 1 rank
    Swim at Full Normal Speed: 1 rank
    Slithering (as RAW): 1 rank

    Permeate • 1 PP/rank
    Movement through loose dirt, sand, snow, etc. at a speed rank equal to your normal Speed plus your Permeate rank minus 4. (Maximum ranks 4.)

    Extras:
    • Affects Others: unlike the general rules for this Extra, it costs 0 PP/rank. However, since it means leaving tunnels behind, it is usable by your enemies as well as by your friends unless you have the Selective Extra.
    • Penetrating: +1 PP/rank per degree of Penetrating; one degree lets you permeate ordinary solids; two lets you permeate things like vault walls or force fields.

    Protection • 1.5 PP/rank

    Remote Sensing • 4 PP/rank
    Same distance categories by Rank as Communication. Same sense types as Figment (and requires at least one Extra for a sense type).

    Senses • 1 PP/rank
    • Danger Sense: (to be nerfed)
    • Darkvision: for 1 rank, can reduce darkness to the point where things are Concealed but not invisible.
    • Penetrates Concealment: 4 PP/rank; each rank gives you this power out to the equivalent Distance Rank. So 4 PP will get you Penetrates Concealment out to 30 ft, 8 PP out to 60 ft, etc.
    • Precognition: 8 ranks. GM requiring the Uncontrolled Flaw is encouraged.

    Speed • 1 PP/rank
    Extras:
    • Teleport (not optional to use if you have it): +1 PP/rank; can move in any direction including "up" and doesn't require traversing the space in between.
    • Penetrating Teleport: +2 PP/rank; as Teleport, plus can go through solid objects.
    • Accurate Teleport: +3 PP/rank; as Penetrating Teleport, but you don't need to be familiar with the destination.
    • Change Velocity: +1 flat PP; requires Teleport

    Summon • 3 PP/rank
    If the Sustained duration is broken, the Summon does not merely vanish, but becomes hostile to its Summoner (and uncontrolled if it was controlled). Its attitude towards other entities should be determined by descriptor.

    PL Limit = summoner's PL -1.

    If the main purpose of a Summon power is something other than combat, the GM is encouraged to restrict the build, as per the sidebar under Summon in the rulebook that recommends making Summon a Descriptor for another Effect (e.g. Remote Sensing).

    Extras:
    • Continuous: in contrast to other uses of the Continuous modifier in my fix, this one is +1 PP/rank.
    • Multiple Minions: +2 PP/rank per degree; each degree adds just 1 more Summon, rather than doubling the number of Summons. If a character concept requires summoning of lots of minions, represent them mechanically by one creature with a Multiple Bodies feature (which I'll include guidelines for later).
    • Vanishing: +1 flat PP; restores the RAW behavior where an un-Sustained Summon vanishes.
    • Variable Type: eliminated.

    Transform • 2-5 PP/rank
    Works by Volume ranks instead of Mass ranks. Can't be used in ways that should be an Attack power instead.

    Variable • 7 PP/rank
    Flaws:
    • Downtime Prep: -2 PP/rank. Each use of this power requires significant preparation performed during downtime as a non-routine activity over a matter of hours (use RAW for Inventor as a guideline to how many hours).

    Warp • 2 PP/rank
    Takes 12 full seconds to use. Distance rank covered = ranks of power +6.

    Extras:
    • Accurate, Easy, Portal: as RAW for Teleport.

    Weaken • 1 PP/rank
    Base DC 15+ranks.

    Extras:
    • All-Or-Nothing: +0 PP/rank. Doesn't work by partial degrees. However, if you Weaken the trait entirely, it remains nullified for a duration. Target may resist to regain their trait as if resisting an Affliction.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-06 at 03:26 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Modifiers

    Basically Unchanged (for now):
    Affects Only Others, Affects Others; Attack; Dimensional; Extended Range; Feature; Homing; Insidious; Linked; Multiattack; Precise; Reach; Reversible; Secondary Effect; Selective; Split; Subtle; Sustained; Triggered; Variable Descriptor; Activation; Diminished Range; Distracting; Fades; Feedback; Increased Action; Limited; Noticeable; Quirk; Sense-Dependent; Side Effect; Tiring; Uncontrolled.

    Eliminated:
    Accurate; Affects Corporeal; Affects Insubstantial (use Penetrating); Affects Objects; Increased Duration (use Continuous or Renewing); Innate (should just be determined by descriptors); Ricochet (use Indirect with Quirk: requires reflective surface); Concentration (use Increased Action).

    Alternate Effect
    Normal Arrays, the GM shouldn't be that strict about requiring thematic equivalence of different options. Mostly, Arrays are balanced by their one-at-a-time, only-switch-once-per-round rules, with the caveat that the Continuous modifier shouldn't allow you to bypass the one-option-at-a-time rule.
    Dynamic Arrays are much more abusable. Basically, powers made of more than one Effect should not be eligible for Dynamic, and thematically there should be a clear link between different Dynamic options.

    Area
    Once you've already paid +1 PP/rank for the Area modifier, increasing the area by a further distance rank is half cost (+0.5 PP/rank).
    Base Cone is reduced to 30 ft. Shapeable effects' volume can never be thinner than 1 ft in any direction.

    Impervious
    Makes you auto-succeed at resisting attacks with rank <= your Impervious rank. Impervious's Rank can't be more than half of the modified Defense's total.

    Improved Critical
    1 Rank costs 2 flat PP.
    2 Ranks cost 5 (total) flat PP.
    3 Ranks cost 9 (total) flat PP.
    4 Ranks cost 14 (total) flat PP.
    5 Ranks cost 20 (total) flat PP.

    Charged
    Basically a re-name of "Unreliable: 5 uses," this is five uses per Scene or however the GM rules is long enough for you to re-charge. Multiple Array options that use this Flaw explicitly share a pool of uses though.

    Check Required
    Base DC is 15; each additional Rank of Check Required increases this DC by +5.
    Clarify a few things (meeting the DC does nothing, since you get one Rank of your Power per unit that you exceed the DC. Can't be made into a Routine check, even with Skill Mastery).

    Inaccurate
    Reduces Accuracy by -4 per rank.

    (More to come for things not above list.)
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-06 at 05:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Other Rules:
    • Reducing something "by half" (eg Active Defenses while Vulnerable, or effective ranks of an Area attack when you succeed on your Dodge check) always reduces it by at least 3. Reducing it "to zero" (eg Active Defenses when Defenseless) reduces it by at least 5.
    • Making Move Action/Standard Action powers into Free Actions is legal (as it is by RAW, combining Reaction with Increased Action, fwiw). However, you only get 1 Free Action per turn to use on any powers modified in this manner. Basically re-creating the Swift Action (3e) or Bonus Action (5e) rules.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-04 at 07:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Some updates above, especially giving Affliction some more teeth. Feedback welcome.

    I'm open to re-interpretation of what effect Impervious should have. If I keep the current version, I'm a little bit torn about whether Power Attack should allow people to "beat" an Impervious defense. Flavor-wise that's very appropriate, but balance-wise it makes Impervious still feel weak.
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Summon

    I've seen numerous reports that this Power is just busted, but it hasn't seemed so in my theorycraft-character-building. What am I missing?

    Obviously summoning many creatures can "break" the game in terms of turning combat into a slog, but that's not what I have in mind.

    I could also see this being versatility-breaking in terms of summoning a variety of cheap, hyper-specialized summons (like a "Brain in a Jar" summon that does all your party's Intellect needs for you, but can do little in combat). But I don't think that's what people mean either.

    I don't want to eliminate this Power. I love that it's so flexible in M&M compared to so many other systems, and I personally enjoy the archetype. But I'm willing to entertain nerfs to its cost or guidelines about what Summons' builds have to be like in order to keep this Power from breaking the game.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Summon

    I've seen numerous reports that this Power is just busted, but it hasn't seemed so in my theorycraft-character-building. What am I missing?

    Obviously summoning many creatures can "break" the game in terms of turning combat into a slog, but that's not what I have in mind.

    I could also see this being versatility-breaking in terms of summoning a variety of cheap, hyper-specialized summons (like a "Brain in a Jar" summon that does all your party's Intellect needs for you, but can do little in combat). But I don't think that's what people mean either.

    I don't want to eliminate this Power. I love that it's so flexible in M&M compared to so many other systems, and I personally enjoy the archetype. But I'm willing to entertain nerfs to its cost or guidelines about what Summons' builds have to be like in order to keep this Power from breaking the game.
    I think it's mostly that dropping a second equal-PL character on the battlefield is more powerful than anything else you could do with the points, but it's technically possible to use Summon to loop yourself to infinite power points--all you need to do is summon a creature with enough ranks of Variable (Affects Only Others) to pay for another application of the Multiple Minions modifier.

    So, like... say you have Summon (Holy Spirit) 10, and the spirit you summon has Variable (Enhancing Holy Magic) 6, Affects Only Others. The spirit targets you and gives you 30pp to spend on improving your spellcasting. You dump 20pp into adding an iteration of Multiple Minions to your Summon power, and the other 10pp however you want. Then you summon a second spirit and do the same thing--now you've got 20 pp to spend and Multiple Minions 2. Summon two more spirits, and you're up to 40pp and Multiple Minions 4. Repeat ad-nauseum.
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    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I think it's mostly that dropping a second equal-PL character on the battlefield is more powerful than anything else you could do with the points,
    Yeah, I guess I have to increase the price enough to make this controversial...

    EDIT: or limit the Summon PL to -1 or -2 below the summoner's...

    but it's technically possible to use Summon to loop yourself to infinite power points--all you need to do is summon a creature with enough ranks of Variable (Affects Only Others) to pay for another application of the Multiple Minions modifier.

    So, like... say you have Summon (Holy Spirit) 10, and the spirit you summon has Variable (Enhancing Holy Magic) 6, Affects Only Others. The spirit targets you and gives you 30pp to spend on improving your spellcasting. You dump 20pp into adding an iteration of Multiple Minions to your Summon power, and the other 10pp however you want. Then you summon a second spirit and do the same thing--now you've got 20 pp to spend and Multiple Minions 2. Summon two more spirits, and you're up to 40pp and Multiple Minions 4. Repeat ad-nauseum.
    Well of course infinite loop shenanigans are broken no matter which Effect they come from. I don't think this is the main reason people say Summon is hard to fix though. The only question here is whether it's worth making a rule about (either specific or "no infinite loops), or whether I should just leave ban-hammering this up the GM.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-05 at 07:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yeah, I guess I have to increase the price enough to make this controversial...


    Well of course infinite loop shenanigans are broken no matter which Effect they come from. I don't think this is the main reason people say Summon is hard to fix though. The only question here is whether it's worth making a rule about (either specific or "no infinite loops), or whether I should just leave ban-hammering this up the GM.
    Yeah, I wouldn't worry about infinite loop shenanigans, there are always going to be plenty of ways you can be RAW-but-cheesy in M&M.

    Be careful on the price boosting, though; there are plenty of legitimate concepts that need Summon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Be careful on the price boosting, though; there are plenty of legitimate concepts that need Summon.
    Yep. I still want it to be a viable power. But spending a third of your PP on being able to summon another PC-level creature (with heroic, continuous) does seem too strong... Right?? Or not, as long as no cheese is involved??
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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yep. I still want it to be a viable power. But spending a third of your PP on being able to summon another PC-level creature (with heroic, continuous) does seem too strong... Right?? Or not, as long as no cheese is involved??
    Combined with the "becomes hostile if you break sustained?" It's probably too much, to be honest. I'd suggest keeping the price the same and either upping the PL penalty to (hero-2) or removing it and requiring them to share standard actions. The former keeps the minion noticeably less effective than the heroes without making them too weak to contribute, while the latter maintains action economy.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2023-05-10 at 01:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Default Re: Resorting back to Fixing Mutants & Masterminds

    Thanks Grod, that's good feedback! I do think I'll allow up to PL -1 rather than -2.

    There will also be guidelines for multi-bodied characters, separate from Summon, who share Standard Actions.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2023-05-13 at 02:19 PM.

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