Prediction Page, (bring your quatloos, gps, and internets, you'll need them.)

[Ruck]

He saw V in the tower. Teleported the elf and O-Chul away to safety together. At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group. Though now there's also Minrah, Lien, Serini, Sunny and Mimi whom he could rescue from a tight spot, so your counter-bet still has merit.

Ugh, I really should have remembered this one. It's pretty critical, after all.

In actual fact, he saw more of Durkon than most of the cast would probably like to.

I don't feel bad about not remembering this one, though. It would be pretty funny if MitD was like "Hey, it's little dude who was getting his bone on." That probably won't happen because I don't think the moment will be undercut by humor that badly, but it's a funny thought.

I personally agree we've spent too much time on guessing the species identity of MitD and not as much about his backstory and plot relevance.

Well, there's less subjectivity in trying to figure out his species, since there are rules around that sort of thing. I'm not sure what evidence we have to guess at his backstory.

To wit:

The Astral Plane remark seems a good point in favor of this.

Okay, but what does that mean and what should we conclude from it?

(I'm also not even sure his backstory is important. And I'm not sure what his plot relevance is beyond the quite obvious setup that per his story of personal growth, he's going to flip sides at some crucial moment.)

[Peelee]

Okay, but what does that mean and what should we conclude from it?

This, of course:

I wish to apologize to everyone for their wasted time and efforts, as I have absolutely and definitively solved the mystery of the MitD's identity. It is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a creature that we have not yet guessed (to the best of my knowledge), which is why it wasn't already obviously apparent, as this is the single most perfect creature that could possibly be presented (which only makes sense, as it is absolutely what the MitD is, of course). Please hold your applause until the end.

The Monster in the Darkness is, quite clearly, Wile E. Coyote.

• Wile E. Coyote has yellow eyes.
• Wile E. Coyote is a coyote, which is a generally known animal, and would fit "one of these".
• Wile E. Coyote lives in the American Southwest, and it would be quite surprising to find him in a rainforest.
• Wile E. Coyote is silent, so it would be surprising to find him speaking.
• Wile E. Coyote is roughly the same size as the Roadrunner, a notably small bird, and is thus much smaller than a regular coyote would be.
• Wile E. Coyote is famously portrayed as always hungry.
• Wile E. Coyote is famously portrayed as behaving quite immaturely.
• Wile E. Coyote is almost universally never harmed by external forces, only by himself or his own machinations, which explains why Miko and Belkar cannot hurt him, but he can give himself a papercut.
• Wile E. Coyote did try to hit as lightly as possible, but his plan was foiled by the ACME rocket-powered gloves he was wearing, launching Miko and Windstrider through the tower wall with great force.
• Wile E. Coyote caused the earthquake because he was wearing ACME rocket-powered boots, which the demon roach saw him order.
• Wile E. Coyote's earnest desire for the well-being of other creatures would tug on the Roadrunner's heartstrings; the Roadrunner would have transported O-Chul and V from Xykon's grasp to the Elven Island, moving so fast that it appeared to be a teleport.
• Wile E. Coyote cannot raise the dead.
• Wile E. Coyote famously has issues correctly working the contraptions he orders.
• Wile E. Coyote would be familiar with the Astral Plane, in the sense of it being a void connecting ideas, as he is an idea from Chuck Jones that traveled to the idea of the Order of the Stick. This would also explain why he is unfamiliar with all other planes.
• Wile E. Coyote is not immune to mind-affecting effects, and can be hypnotized.
• Wile E. Coyote is in a very different animated style than the Order of the Stick, which would likely cause many in the comic to be sickened by him, while others are in awe or admiration. And certainly a wizard would have never seen anything like him.
• Wile E. Coyote's tracks would similarly be wholly unrecognizable to Belkar.

And, finally, Wile E. Coyote would clearly be able to display flashes of brilliance despite his otherwise childish demeanor, as evidenced here:

Spoiler

Show

As you can no doubt now plainly see, the MitD can only be Wile E. Coyote, as he is the most perfect fit that has ever been imagined. Thank you.

[balloons fall]

[Edreyn]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die? Once, in the comic old days, when it was more about silly jokes, I so much liked his black humor.

I still remember one of his jokes - "it starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats'".

Now he is still evil, but way too serious.

[Peelee]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die? Once, in the comic old days, when it was more about silly jokes, I so much liked his black humor.

I still remember one of his jokes - "it starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats'".

Now he is still evil, but way too serious.

It's less "hope" and more "the prophecy has been worded several different ways that it would be cheap and poor writing to have them all resolve separately without death, and also the Oracle actually kmows the future and hates Belkar and has no reason to take pleasure in Belkar's fate if itls ridiculous things like 'he will paint a painting called "last breath ever'".

[ZhonLord]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die?

Not hope. We KNOW he will die because the Oracle can see the exact future. In both visits the party made to him, he said Belkar was going to die. Then he formalized it with the prophecy he gave Roy. Belkar is absolutely going to die because the Oracle's predictions have never been wrong, and appear to be incapable of being wrong.

But what happens after his death? If he becomes undead, or a ghost, or reincarnates into someone new and no longer falls himself Belkar Bitterleaf? Now that is where things get interesting. After all, Mr Scruffy still needs someone to look after him.

[Edreyn]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)

[ZhonLord]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

"the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA." "He should savor his next birthday cake."

"your pal isn't long for this world." "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath - EVER - before the end of the year."

Add these four statements together and tell me what other conclusion could possibly be drawn.

[Peelee]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)

That's not the way with all his prophecies. The opposite, in fact, is actually the case.

[Kish]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)

So are you taking my bet, or just talking about how the only reason to believe something will happen is to want it to happen?

[Metastachydium]

Happens all the thyme.

Oh, shoot! I should have seen that one coming from a mile away.

"the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA." "He should savor his next birthday cake."

"your pal isn't long for this world." "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath - EVER - before the end of the year."

Add these four statements together and tell me what other conclusion could possibly be drawn.

I'm very glad that you asked, actually!

[Edreyn]

I'll try to explain what I mean.
In most of books, and this one too, prophecies never mean literally what they say. Yes, each of Oracle's prophecies are alegories\parables. But their meaning can only be understood in one way - Belkar will die. And that's where the catch is. Oracle (actually author) wants us to be sure that prophecy will shoot in one specific way. And the very meaning of prophecies in books is to never work as expected.

Kish, okay, if you want.
My bet: Belkar will not die, or change to something completely different.
Exception if he dies from old age in epilogue.

If I lose, call me a pig three times in a row in public.

[Peelee]

I'll try to explain what I mean.
In most of books, and this one too, prophecies never mean literally what they say. Yes, each of Oracle's prophecies are alegories\parables. But their meaning can only be understood in one way - Belkar will die. And that's where the catch is. Oracle (actually author) wants us to be sure that prophecy will shoot in one specific way. And the very meaning of prophecies in books is to never work as expected.

Ok, i nees you to explain this to me. The Oracle tells Eugene Xykon's name, tells Roy and Durkon where Xykon is, tells Roy which of two Gates Xykon will be at first, tells Haley to not overthink things to fix her aphasia, tells V the exact circumstances that they will get the power they crave, tells Belkar that he will kill at least one of a list of potential targets, tells Durkon he will die before returning home....

I'm not seeing any evidence of what you're claiming. And even in literature, if someone is told they're going to do something, and they try to take actions to prevent it, they just end up doing that thing anyway, so what you claim isn't even necessarily true in other stories. And that's not even factoring in that other stories dont affect what happens in this story.

Like, from all the information we have, expecting Belkar to live is the hopefulness, not expecting him to die. Again, if you can explain how, exactly, the Oracle has been wrong about anything, please, im all ears. The only one you can even really argue on is Durkon's, and he still straight-up died, so the expectation was still met perfectly, there was just more information (that a vampire would hijack his body) that wasn't revealed. But the expectation of death still came about. Belkar? Not needing to worry about retirement isnt meeting any expectations. Its wishful thinking relying on nothing but "well i think hes funny" and only supported by bad storytelling.

[Edreyn]

I don't think I can explain any better, never was good in this.

One thing comes to mind actually.

From Pratchett (not exact quote):
'Would the sun really never rise again?'
'Yes.'
'And what would happen?'
'The world would be illuminated by a giant orb of very heated gas.'

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.

[Peelee]

I don't think I can explain any better, never was good in this.

One thing comes to mind actually.

From Pratchett (not exact quote):
'Will the sun really never rise again?'
'Yes.'
'And what would happen?'
'The world would be illuminated by a giant orb of very heated gas.'

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.

Here's the thing. You're explaining your position perfectly fine. The reason you can't explain it better is because it's wrong. Your entire claim that this is how the Oracle's prophecies have worked is wrong. Your claim that this is how prophecies in fiction in general work is wrong (and irrelevant, but it's more important to note that it's wrong).

The issue is not with your explanation not being better. It can't be better, because there's nothing more you can say that will explain it, because its wrong.

[Ruck]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die?

This thread is "Predictions Page," not "Hopes Page."

[Edreyn]

Okay, I guess you can be right.
Again, I hate arguing.

[BloodSquirrel]

I used to expect that there would be some twist to the prophecy on the grounds that it would be boring if we were just told a thing would happen and it happened. There was a twist to Durkon's, after all, even if it still came true.

But Belkar's redemption arc has given the prophecy a clear narrative purpose- it's dramatic irony. It gives the whole storyline a tragic undercurrent that wouldn't exist if we expected him to get a happy ending because of his redemption.

[Metastachydium]

I take it that nobody's getting aboard the air gnome extraplanar forced labour train, then? That makes me sad(, even as I don't think it's particularly likely).

[Kish]

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.

If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."

[Metastachydium]

If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."

Kalkhas: "It's gonna take ten years, but you'll win."
Kassandra: [Gives the exact body count.]
That One Harpy in the Aeneid: "You are going to eat your tables!"

[ZhonLord]

If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."

Wheel of time, the ENTIRE Karaethon Cycle. As just one example:

"Twice and twice he shall be marked. Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron to name him true. Once the dragon for remembrance lost. Twice the dragon for the price he must pay."

[Precure]

This thread is "Predictions Page," not "Hopes Page."

Yeah, exactly. I'm predicting Belkar to not die, but it's definitely not something I'm hoping for.

[Precure]

He saw V in the tower. Teleported the elf and O-Chul away to safety together. At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group. Though now there's also Minrah, Lien, Serini, Sunny and Mimi whom he could rescue from a tight spot, so your counter-bet still has merit.

He know Serini from the diary at least.

[Kish]

Yeah, exactly. I'm predicting Belkar to not die, but it's definitely not something I'm hoping for.

Well if you want to take my bet, you can console yourself when he doesn't die with having 20 more gold.

[Edreyn]

To keep this thread alive, two more predictions.

6) Redcloak will be killed by Dark One himself, either as punishment for failure, or betrayed by him. Dark One is evil, don't forget.

7) MitD will play an important role in the very end, not in just eating Xykon, as said before, but in finding a permanent solution with Snarl-vs-Gods dilemma.

And my opinion on another prediction from this thread:

There won't be battle in Astral Fortress, but the Final Battle will be joined by all surviving members of other factions.

[ZhonLord]

I wager 2 brand new pairs of shoes that O-Chul will be among those who die permanently before the end of the story, as a long-delayed dramatic climax to Elan's prediction of death.

[Ruck]

6) Redcloak will be killed by Dark One himself, either as punishment for failure, or betrayed by him. Dark One is evil, don't forget.

Can TDO even do that? The gods aren't really allowed to act directly on the material plane, so I'm not sure how that would work.

I wager 2 brand new pairs of shoes that O-Chul will be among those who die permanently before the end of the story, as a long-delayed dramatic climax to Elan's prediction of death.

I'll bet against that. It may just be hope, or a firm conviction that O-Chul is too great a character to imagine his story ending here. If it were necessary for the story, then it could certainly happen, but I also don't see from here how it would be necessary.

[brian 333]

Can TDO even do that? The gods aren't really allowed to act directly on the material plane, so I'm not sure how that would work.

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

[Peelee]

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

Neither were any of the other gods or demigods raised from the world, like Dvalin, but I'm pretty sure they apply regardless. If for no reason other than TDO vs the entire other three pantheons would be pretty one-sided.

[Ruck]

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

Hmm, I suppose you are correct. Your comment reminded me that Hel was going to try to give Durkon a heart attack before Thor intervened, so it looks like it is indeed more an agreement among the gods than something hardwired into the rules for the Material Plane.