Prediction Page, (bring your quatloos, gps, and internets, you'll need them.)

[Metastachydium]

If Belkar HAS to die, perhaps the worst punishment gods can to do him is to send him to Good afterlife, especially if he wants evil one.
Just imagine our poor halfling locked for eternity with all those moronic do-gooders, unable to hurt anyone. Not even allowed to fight (or join) evil adventurers that sometimes visit.
I can't imagine worse fate for him.

Technically, one of the few things we do know about Celestia is that its inhabitants totally get to fight stuff just strong enough to challenge them.

Imperial credits don't work out here.

Depends on which Empire. My credits are from the Traveller Universe, not the Disney one.

"These are not the imperial credits you are looking for!"

[brian 333]

"These are not the imperial credits you are looking for!"

I bet one quatloo that that is the most humorous Star Wars reference of the day.

Forget it, here's your quatloo. You've earned it.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Not one person tried to convince me that credits will do fine.

Show

[brian 333]

Spoiler: Not one person tried to convince me that credits will do fine.

Show

Please accept my humblest and most abject apologies. My contrition, as great as it may be, can in no way assuage the immense disappointment which I have participated in inflicting upon you. I accept whatever retribution you deem appropriate to the severity of my offense.

Would a fine of 50 Imperial Credits suffice?

[Peelee]

Please accept my humblest and most abject apologies. My contrition, as great as it may be, can in no way assuage the immense disappointment which I have participated in inflicting upon you. I accept whatever retribution you deem appropriate to the severity of my offense.

Would a fine of 50 Imperial Credits suffice?

Ten thousand, all in advance.

[Provengreil]

Wait, I know!
Belkar will go to Lower Planes, but the surroundings will be set the way to make him feel that he is on Upper Planes. Many innocents (illusions) around and he can't slaughter them all.
This way all conditions are met.

The Giant's quote is pretty direct...It's hot skewers for Belkar unless he crosses the line to neutral at the last minute (not unthinkable, and someone around here even has it as a signature). There's no personalized afterlives, which means no ironic hells.

Given that I don't think Belkar can balance his scales at this point, his only way out of the torture is via the snarl's oblivion instead. I find this fairly likely, given that resurrection has been stated to be off the table.

[Kish]

I will, at this point, be surprised if Belkar goes to an evil afterlife. Or is devoured by the Snarl.

[Edreyn]

I will, at this point, be surprised if Belkar goes to an evil afterlife. Or is devoured by the Snarl.

If not survive, not evil afterlife and not devoured, then what will happen?

Redemption? If that's what will happen, I'll be upset. I like Belkar as evil (and yet funny) character and making him good will ruin all this.

[Metastachydium]

I bet one quatloo that that is the most humorous Star Wars reference of the day.

Forget it, here's your quatloo. You've earned it.

Sweet! I've always wanted to have one of those! (Now, what stupid bet should I squander it on? Hm.)

[Kish]

If not survive, not evil afterlife and not devoured, then what will happen?

Redemption? If that's what will happen, I'll be upset. I like Belkar as evil (and yet funny) character and making him good will ruin all this.

Be upset then. It's been happening since two books ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

Redemption? If that's what will happen, I'll be upset. I like Belkar as evil (and yet funny) character and making him good will ruin all this.

I am not sure he's going to clear the bar for redemption. Giant, through the voice of Soon's ghost, has some pretty concrete things to say about how redemption works in OotSverse which includes that you have to want to atone, you have to admit you are wrong, etc. (The furtive attempt in the conversation with Durkon is baby steps at best, but I took it as comic relief mostly).

For Belkar to get on the road to redemption is going to take a massive effort in the remaining half/two-thirds of this book. Granted, Minrah is acting as his helper / mentor, so maybe that's her deeper purpose as a character: redemption coach for Belkar. (Which may be why she's cleric/fighter multi-classed ...)

V, on the other hand, is very much focused on "I was wrong, horribly wrong" and has indicated on screen a desire to atone/make restitution (V's words), if that is even possible.
V will try to seek redemption but has accepted that it may be too far of a reach. (strips 944 and 945)
I still think that the end of the story / wrap up includes V heading off to attempt to earn redemption. As an elf, there are centuries of effort available to perhaps achieve that end.

[brian 333]

Ten thousand, all in advance.

Done, and done.

I am not sure he's going to clear the bar for redemption. Giant, through the voice of Soon's ghost, has some pretty concrete things to say about how redemption works in OotSverse which includes that you have to want to atone, you have to admit you are wrong, etc. (The furtive attempt in the conversation with Durkon is baby steps at best, but I took it as comic relief mostly).

For Belkar to get on the road to redemption is going to take a massive effort in the remaining half/two-thirds of this book. Granted, Minrah is acting as his helper / mentor, so maybe that's her deeper purpose as a character: redemption coach for Belkar. (Which may be why she's cleric/fighter multi-classed ...)

V, on the other hand, is very much focused on "I was wrong, horribly wrong" and has indicated on screen a desire to atone/make restitution (V's words), if that is even possible.
V will try to seek redemption but has accepted that it may be too far of a reach. (strips 944 and 945)
I still think that the end of the story / wrap up includes V heading off to attempt to earn redemption. As an elf, there are centuries of effort available to perhaps achieve that end.

I agree, with the caveat that a sufficiently great deed can grant a lot of points on the scale. Though the scale of that deed would have to be massive to counter just what he's done in comic, not to mention what came before. Which may put redemption, or even alignment shift, out of Belkar's reach.

[Peelee]

I am not sure he's going to clear the bar for redemption. Giant, through the voice of Soon's ghost, has some pretty concrete things to say about how redemption works in OotSverse which includes that you have to want to atone, you have to admit you are wrong, etc. (The furtive attempt in the conversation with Durkon is baby steps at best, but I took it as comic relief mostly).

For Belkar to get on the road to redemption is going to take a massive effort in the remaining half/two-thirds of this book. Granted, Minrah is acting as his helper / mentor, so maybe that's her deeper purpose as a character: redemption coach for Belkar. (Which may be why she's cleric/fighter multi-classed ...)

V, on the other hand, is very much focused on "I was wrong, horribly wrong" and has indicated on screen a desire to atone/make restitution (V's words), if that is even possible.
V will try to seek redemption but has accepted that it may be too far of a reach. (strips 944 and 945)
I still think that the end of the story / wrap up includes V heading off to attempt to earn redemption. As an elf, there are centuries of effort available to perhaps achieve that end.

So i think my perennial favorite, In Bruges, is a good lens to see this through. Also, anyone who hasn't seen In Bruges should go see it as soon as possible, it's just fantastic.

Spoiler: Major spoilers In Bruges

Show

So the main characters we focus on and root for, Ken and Ray, are assassins. They kill people for money with seemingly no objection. Ken tries to rationalize that many, probably most and hopefully all, deserved it, but realizes that it is likely that at least some did not. He knows full well that what he does is evil but he feels such a debt to Harry that he would go to hell and back for him. When Ray murders the little boy, both Ken and Ray end up fundamentally changed - Ray is so wracked with grief and regret that he tries to commit suicide, and Ken, who is given the job to assassinate Ray because he killed a child, stops him. Ray doesn't do anything to be redeemed for Ken, because what can one really do to redeem yourself from killing an innocent? The important thing is that Ray is so overwhelmed by the enormity of his actions that he sees the only viable solution to remove himself entirely. This, to Ken, is enough. It is arguably the purest example of regret, if incredibly misguided, and there is no doubt that if Ray could have done something, anything, to undo that, he would. The barest core of redemption is recognition of past wrongs and commitment to never do them again, and if possible, atone. Ray clearly hits the first two, and the seeming lack of ability to do the third triggers his spiraling depression. When Ray says that no matter what he does in the future, he will never have not killed that little boy, that's enough to see himself as forever condemned, atonement out of reach. And this is a reasonable argument, the dead cannot be brought back. Ken tells him to save the next little boy. Ray takes this literally but Ken is speaking metaphorically, do what he can to make up for it. Ray isn't a doctor, (you need exams!), he'll likely never know when or even if he will be able to fully atone for what he did. But Ken convinces him to try, because Ken sees in Ray someone who doesn't deserve to die someone who can be redeemed. And in this Ken redeems himself - he refuses the order to kill Ray, and when Harry comes personally, refuses to Harry's face. And not only that, he lays out why he refuses! Ray had to be given a chance, and to do that, Ken has to say **** harry and **** their history and **** everything Ken owes Harry for. And Ken harbors no ill will to Harry other than this. He openly goes to what he sincerely thinks will be his death at Harry's hand. He doesn't fight Harry when the gun is pulled. He hands over his own gun. Because he is finally at peace with himself, he finally was able to turn his back and make a stand. And when it's revealed that Ray, thought to have escaped Belgium and Harry's wrath, is just down at the base of the tower, Ken throws himself off to give the unarmed Ray his gun and a chance to get out with his life, not because Ken deemed Ray worthy of redemption but because Ken saw that Ray was already wanting to redeem himself and had to be given that chance.

And that's really the core of it. Redemption isn't something that someone else gives. It's something that you have to do to yourself. That's why Miko couldn't get it. She couldn't see what she did wrong, at any point, and never looked inward for redemption. She looked outward, to Soon. Forgiveness is external, that can only be granted by others. But redemption? That's personal.

Again, i cannot recommend In Bruges enough. And also the video commentary of it on YouTube, The Absurd Worth of Redemption, for a good quick and dirty summation of the takeaways.

[Tubercular Ox]

Shoot, I was just expecting Rich to poke fun at the Darth Vader rule by putting an Evil Belkar in a good afterlife to work it off.

[brian 333]

So i think my perennial favorite, In Bruges, is a good lens to see this through. Also, anyone who hasn't seen In Bruges should go see it as soon as possible, it's just fantastic.

Spoiler: Major spoilers In Bruges

Show

So the main characters we focus on and root for, Ken and Ray, are assassins. They kill people for money with seemingly no objection. Ken tries to rationalize that many, probably most and hopefully all, deserved it, but realizes that it is likely that at least some did not. He knows full well that what he does is evil but he feels such a debt to Harry that he would go to hell and back for him. When Ray murders the little boy, both Ken and Ray end up fundamentally changed - Ray is so wracked with grief and regret that he tries to commit suicide, and Ken, who is given the job to assassinate Ray because he killed a child, stops him. Ray doesn't do anything to be redeemed for Ken, because what can one really do to redeem yourself from killing an innocent? The important thing is that Ray is so overwhelmed by the enormity of his actions that he sees the only viable solution to remove himself entirely. This, to Ken, is enough. It is arguably the purest example of regret, if incredibly misguided, and there is no doubt that if Ray could have done something, anything, to undo that, he would. The barest core of redemption is recognition of past wrongs and commitment to never do them again, and if possible, atone. Ray clearly hits the first two, and the seeming lack of ability to do the third triggers his spiraling depression. When Ray says that no matter what he does in the future, he will never have not killed that little boy, that's enough to see himself as forever condemned, atonement out of reach. And this is a reasonable argument, the dead cannot be brought back. Ken tells him to save the next little boy. Ray takes this literally but Ken is speaking metaphorically, do what he can to make up for it. Ray isn't a doctor, (you need exams!), he'll likely never know when or even if he will be able to fully atone for what he did. But Ken convinces him to try, because Ken sees in Ray someone who doesn't deserve to die someone who can be redeemed. And in this Ken redeems himself - he refuses the order to kill Ray, and when Harry comes personally, refuses to Harry's face. And not only that, he lays out why he refuses! Ray had to be given a chance, and to do that, Ken has to say **** harry and **** their history and **** everything Ken owes Harry for. And Ken harbors no ill will to Harry other than this. He openly goes to what he sincerely thinks will be his death at Harry's hand. He doesn't fight Harry when the gun is pulled. He hands over his own gun. Because he is finally at peace with himself, he finally was able to turn his back and make a stand. And when it's revealed that Ray, thought to have escaped Belgium and Harry's wrath, is just down at the base of the tower, Ken throws himself off to give the unarmed Ray his gun and a chance to get out with his life, not because Ken deemed Ray worthy of redemption but because Ken saw that Ray was already wanting to redeem himself and had to be given that chance.

And that's really the core of it. Redemption isn't something that someone else gives. It's something that you have to do to yourself. That's why Miko couldn't get it. She couldn't see what she did wrong, at any point, and never looked inward for redemption. She looked outward, to Soon. Forgiveness is external, that can only be granted by others. But redemption? That's personal.

Again, i cannot recommend In Bruges enough. And also the video commentary of it on YouTube, The Absurd Worth of Redemption, for a good quick and dirty summation of the takeaways.

I have never seen the film, but I agree with this 100%.

Belkar still has a long way to go to achieve it. At this point he is still 'faking it' and is confused by the fact that being less of a jerk to people makes them less of a jerk to you.

"I wasn't rude to them," surprises him as much as, "And they were nice to me."

There's a long walk between that and accepting responsibility for the person he used to be.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, I know!
Belkar will go to Lower Planes, but the surroundings will be set the way to make him feel that he is on Upper Planes. Many innocents (illusions) around and he can't slaughter them all.
This way all conditions are met.

Are you sure you're not confusing this with The Good Place? Because, aside from wanting to kill everyone else but being unable to, that's Eleanor.

[KorvinStarmast]

So i think my perennial favorite, In Bruges, is a good lens to see this through. .

I have not seen the movie, not sure if we ever will. Beyond that, what brian333 said in response to this post of yours. Belkar is not currently positioned for it, but there's over half of a book to go, so the holes in the Swiss cheese may line up for him...and I think that if that's where Rich is going with Belkar, Minrah is the key to unlocking that 'power up' for him.
{scrubbed}

[GreyTraveller]

Ten thousand, all in advance.

Done, and done.

No, no, the correct response should clearly have been, "I'll pay you two thousand now, plus fifteen when we reach Alderaan".

[Peelee]

No, no, the correct response should clearly have been, "I'll pay you two thousand now, plus fifteen when we reach Alderaan".

Seventeen thousand! Those guys must really be desperate. This could really save my neck. Get back to the ship and get her ready.

[mormon_soldier]

Raaarrrwwww, grrrr

[LadyEowyn]

I don’t think Belkar is still ‘faking it’ - there’s been some sincerity in his change since Duton’s death, and by close to the end of Book 6 he’d openly recognized and accepted that he really did want and was trying to be a better person. So far that has mostly manfested in trying to be nicer and more helpful to his teammates, but that’s because they’re the main people he has been around.

The big thing preventing Belkar’s character trajectory from being a redemption arc is that, so far, he doesn’t seem bothered by all the innocent people he’s killed for fun in the past. This contrasts with V, who is horrified and remorseful about familicide.

But I think the latest comic could hint at the start of a change in that. Belkar’s not reacting to the paladins with “you want to still throw me in prison after I save the world? Screw you!” or “ha, as if your prison could hold me”, which would be more character-typical. He’s accepting that they’re going to put him in prison and taking their offers of making it less onerous as generosity and kindness. He’s implicitly accepting that he has done wrong and it’s legitimate for them to imprison him for it.

I still think he’s goimg to get eaten by the Snarl, though. My main reservation it that it seems like the really obvious choice by now, and Rich is usually good at taking things in directions we don’t expect.

[Edreyn]

Maybe it will be MitD and not Snarl who will eat Belkar. He is also very gluttonous person. With so much said about his gluttony, sure he has to eat someone who is a character in a story. And Belkar is so different O-Chul, not many chances they will become friends.

Maybe MitD will swallow Belkar, choke, start coughing, drop his umb... parasol and will finally be revealed in full light.

[Kish]

I don’t think Belkar is still ‘faking it’ - there’s been some sincerity in his change since Duton’s death, and by close to the end of Book 6 he’d openly recognized and accepted that he really did want and was trying to be a better person. So far that has mostly manfested in trying to be nicer and more helpful to his teammates, but that’s because they’re the main people he has been around.

The big thing preventing Belkar’s character trajectory from being a redemption arc is that, so far, he doesn’t seem bothered by all the innocent people he’s killed for fun in the past. This contrasts with V, who is horrified and remorseful about familicide.

Rich's Blood Runs in the Family commentary is interesting on this subject. I can't quote it right now, but in a paraphrase that is hopefully brief and close enough that no one will debate it, part of Belkar's attitude here is the realization that while Durkon deserves to live, Belkar himself may not.

Maybe it will be MitD and not Snarl who will eat Belkar. He is also very gluttonous person. With so much said about his gluttony, sure he has to eat someone who is a character in a story. And Belkar is so different O-Chul, not many chances they will become friends.

Maybe MitD will swallow Belkar, choke, start coughing, drop his umb... parasol and will finally be revealed in full light.

I think the suggestion that the creature in the darkness will in any way attack a member of the Order, or that Xykon's assumption that a hungry monster must equal "willing to eat people" was ever accurate for that matter, ignores everything that's been going on with him in the last two books and current book as surely as hoping that Belkar will resume being the "comedic" serial killer he was for the first four books ignores everything that's been going on with him since then.

[Metastachydium]

I think the suggestion that the creature in the darkness will in any way attack a member of the Order, or that Xykon's assumption that a hungry monster must equal "willing to eat people" was ever accurate for that matter, ignores everything that's been going on with him in the last two books and current book as surely as hoping that Belkar will resume being the "comedic" serial killer he was for the first four books ignores everything that's been going on with him since then.

Well, he was quite enthusiastic in DCF (for whatever that's worth, admittedly) and at least willing to go through with it in WaXP, but yeah, I otherwise agree.

[KorvinStarmast]

...ignores everything that's been going on with him in the last two books and current book as surely as hoping that Belkar will resume being the "comedic" serial killer he was for the first four books ignores everything that's been going on with him since then.

Comedic Serial Killers: that's bound to be the name of a punk band somewhere.
(I won't digress into the whole Dexter schtick of a serial killer as protagonist ... because Belkar ain't that)

[Edreyn]

I don't really think so about MitD, it was a joke. As for Belkar, I sure liked him more in first books, but again I don't believe he will return to this state.
Should I write in blue color anything that is supposed to be humor?

[Tubercular Ox]

I still think he’s goimg to get eaten by the Snarl, though.

I'll take that bet, if only because I've already bet the opposite.

My main reservation it that it seems like the really obvious choice by now, and Rich is usually good at taking things in directions we don’t expect.

This is how I feel about everything I said in this thread. It's been really cathartic to just get it out there so it can be right or wrong on its own, so if you have any other ideas I encourage you to share them.

[brian 333]

Raaarrrwwww, grrrr

I'll take that bet, if only because I've already bet the opposite.

I bet a trout almandine served at Andrew Jaggers in New Orleans that The Snarl unmakes Belkar. You have to get to Jaggers on your own, but tell me the time and date and I'll be there to pay for the trout in the extremely unlikely event that I am wr... wrrr...ooon, the w word.

This is how I feel about everything I said in this thread. It's been really cathartic to just get it out there so it can be right or wrong on its own, so if you have any other ideas I encourage you to share them.

That's kind of the purpose of the thread. So many people have so many guesses that it would be easy to comb the forum archives and prove that I was they were right, even though I they claimed both sides of the coin flip in various threads.

Whether for bragging rights, comparison to or disagreement with, or just to post an idea you think is original, all are welcome to enjoy.

Bring your imaginary money or barter.

P.S. The Author cannot take the above bet because of possible conflict of interest issues. I don't think he'd alter his comic for a free dinner, but Jagger's trout almandine is good enough to tempt him.

[Lord Torath]

I bet a trout almandine served at Andrew Jaggers in New Orleans that The Snarl unmakes Belkar. You have to get to Jaggers on your own, but tell me the time and date and I'll be there to pay for the trout in the extremely unlikely event that I am wr... wrrr...ooon, the w word.

"Okay, Minion. You were right. I was... less right."

[Tubercular Ox]

There's no evidence that anyone, much less Belkar, actually wants an evil afterlife. They sound thoroughly unpleasant.

Sorry for the long delay, but what about Jirix? More importantly, do his feelings about probably-Acheron change how you feel about Belkar's ending? Maybe there's a layer of the Abyss that's not so bad?