VS Battles Wiki Make No Sense At All

[Peelee]

The Rebels didn't know they had a space wizard and still considered the chances of success sufficiently reasonable that they didn't evacuate their command staff.

Yeah, because if they can't stop it there then they're done. Star Wars doesn't see space as "just book it anywhere", they see space as "oh no our exit route is cut off by the Empire!" see ESB for them being more explicit about it. There was a chance. That chance was minimal. Hell, even Luke wouldn't have made it had some random guy neither side counted on come in unexpectedly to save him.

The Empire loses in RotJ because the Emperor is overconfident in the brilliance of his trap, like that's the whole plot.

Thr Empire loses in RotJ because the rebels befriended Ewoks, which was a stroke of luck. The trap worked as intended on ghr forest moon. The Emperor's overconfidence was his in his attempt to turn Luke and keep Vader loyal.

Both Death Stars had plans to destroy them, and both plans would have failed miserably if not for completely unexpected third parties suddenly distracting the Empire at critical moments.

[Keltest]

They were...wrong, though. They were ****ed without the space wizard.

The space wizard ended up being the one who pulled it off, but that doesn't mean that the guy who said it was impossible was right either.

[Rynjin]

The space wizard ended up being the one who pulled it off, but that doesn't mean that the guy who said it was impossible was right either.

The space wizard ended up pulling it off due only to his space wizard powers after everyone else failed miserably.

If they thought the chances were good, they were wrong.

That said, I think they were pretty explicit about the chances being slim to begin with.

[Keltest]

The space wizard ended up pulling it off due only to his space wizard powers after everyone else failed miserably.

If they thought the chances were good, they were wrong.

That said, I think they were pretty explicit about the chances being slim to begin with.

And most of the reason for that is because another space wizard came and shot them down, which is orthogonal to the viability of the actual shot.

[Peelee]

The space wizard ended up being the one who pulled it off, but that doesn't mean that the guy who said it was impossible was right either.

No, he wasn't, as it wasn't impossible, but that does tell the audience it is a very difficult shot. So difficult that only one of the non-wizards even was able to get the shot and off, and it missed, even with a targeting computer.

In fact, it may well have been impossible without the Force, as we see that the targeting computer isnt able to help make it. Too little data to determine, but ij any event its clearly meant to be incredibly difficult.

And most of the reason for that is because another space wizard came and shot them down, which is orthogonal to the viability of the actual shot.

Vader wasn't shown to be using the Force there. In fact, he is openly relying on his own targeting computers. There's no reason to think another pilot in another TIE wouldn't have been able to take the rebels down either.

[warty goblin]

I do not understand the urge to treat Star Wars of all things like hard sci-fi or at the extreme end a documentary *coughStarDestroyer.netcough*. It's the movie version of old pulp sci-fi stories from the 40s and 50s, which are pretty much none of those things. The pay wasn't good enough for lots of editing and drafting, so everything has a very seat of the pants, make it up as you go attitude, which works very well for adventure romance stories because when done by a good storyteller it keeps the pace fast and the mood one of surprise where anything can happen.

This is very much alive and well in Star Wars, particularly the OT. I think looking at the story outside of that lens, and through the weird strong continuity filter of modern fandom is failing to engage honestly with the actual thing Lucas created and where that creation comes from.

[Peelee]

I do not understand the urge to treat Star Wars of all things like hard sci-fi or at the extreme end a documentary

Who's doing that? We're talking about the narrative.

[The Glyphstone]

Perhaps Warty is futilely trying to bring us back full circle to the original topic?

[Peelee]

Perhaps Warty is futilely trying to bring us back full circle to the original topic?

That's fair. But i heard that once you start down the dark path Star Wars, forever will it dominate your destiny.

[GloatingSwine]

No, he wasn't, as it wasn't impossible, but that does tell the audience it is a very difficult shot. So difficult that only one of the non-wizards even was able to get the shot and off, and it missed, even with a targeting computer.

In fact, it may well have been impossible without the Force, as we see that the targeting computer isnt able to help make it. Too little data to determine, but ij any event its clearly meant to be incredibly difficult.

And again, the fact that the rebel pilots even tried in the first place, and the whole story is predicated on giving them the information about the thing that lets them try at all, means that the audience is clearly not meant to think that it would be impossible for anyone but a space wizard.

The entire movie decoheres if you insist that only a space wizard could ever have succeeded.

The nature of the problem is a timing problem*, the torpedoes have to be released with very precise timing to execute their turn into the shaft. A pilot responding to the targeting computer telling him it's the right time might succeed anyway (whether you believe that to be luck or the will of the Force), Luke was able to listen to the Force and definitely get the timing right that way.

*Remember that the Death Star assault is fundamentally the Dambusters Raid, which was a matter of precise timing, to the extent that IIRC the early screeners to production/exec before the effects sequences were complete used footage from The Dambusters to communicate what the audience was going to be feeling during those sequences.

[pendell]

I do not understand the urge to treat Star Wars of all things like hard sci-fi or at the extreme end a documentary *coughStarDestroyer.netcough*. It's the movie version of old pulp sci-fi stories from the 40s and 50s, which are pretty much none of those things. The pay wasn't good enough for lots of editing and drafting, so everything has a very seat of the pants, make it up as you go attitude, which works very well for adventure romance stories because when done by a good storyteller it keeps the pace fast and the mood one of surprise where anything can happen.

This is very much alive and well in Star Wars, particularly the OT. I think looking at the story outside of that lens, and through the weird strong continuity filter of modern fandom is failing to engage honestly with the actual thing Lucas created and where that creation comes from.

The movies, maybe. The Legends EU had some very talented SF authors such as Zahn working in it who lampshaded a lot of the stuff in the movies, and it's worth discussing at that level.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Glyphstone]

The audience is meant to believe what the characters believe, which is that they have a chance, if a slim one. Which they did - a slim chance, but without Luke that chance would have failed. The previous pilots missed, and there wouldn't have been time for another run before the superlaser fired. As-is, he might have failed if he had waited for the computer to lock on. The rebels didn't know they had a space wizard, after all.

At Endor - the Emperor would have gladly traded the DS2 and the fleet if it meant corrupting Luke. They were just tools to advance his goals, ultimately ruling the galaxy would come second to the impulsive ambition that defines the Sith.

[Peelee]

And again, the fact that the rebel pilots even tried in the first place, and the whole story is predicated on giving them the information about the thing that lets them try at all, means that the audience is clearly not meant to think that it would be impossible for anyone but a space wizard.

The entire movie decoheres if you insist that only a space wizard could ever have succeeded.

The narrative clearly shows it is desperation. Everything the Rebellion does in that movie is desperation. They even have the line "this is our most desperate hour".

And no, Luke is advancing with his targeting computer and is explicitly told to use the Force. Could it conceivably have been made by a non-space wizard? Maybe. Of all the people who tried, did anyonr other than the space wizard succeed? There's your answer.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: Pretty sure literally the first shot in Star Wars does that

Show

. We are shown Star Destroyers are juggernauts. We are told Star Destroyers are juggernauts. The characters act as if Star Destroyers are juggernauts.

I was going to continue arguing against, but…

Spoiler

Show

THAT'S a BIRDY!

I'm all won over.

[awa]

lets be fair only 1 other guy got the opportunity to take the shot and the possibility of it working was considered high enough for them to be disappointed when it didn't. Its not like the rebellion knew they had a space wizard and they still tried the plan anyway. Luke didn't know he was a space wizard and he was positive the shot could be made based on his history of shooting womp rats.

[Rynjin]

Luke was also, again, utterly wrong. Womp Rat Whompin' Champion Galactic Year 1793 he may have been, but turns out he still needed the space wizard powers to succeed.

(And of course the implication that achieving the Whompin' Trophy was a result of his latent space wizardiness anyway.)

[Peelee]

lets be fair only 1 other guy got the opportunity to take the shot and the possibility of it working was considered high enough for them to be disappointed when it didn't. Its not like the rebellion knew they had a space wizard and they still tried the plan anyway. Luke didn't know he was a space wizard and he was positive the shot could be made based on his history of shooting womp rats.

First, they were disappointed because, again, they're desparate. They're going to die in a few minutes if it doesn't work, of course they're disappointed. Second, Luke does know he's a space wizard. He trained earlier im space wizarding, and is told to use his space wizard powers and not the targeting computer. Thr idea that he didn't know what he was doing is directly and specifically refuted by the film, as a major point it focuses on. The line even became one of the most famous lines in the movie!

[awa]

he has no reason to believe the force will allow him to make that shot when others can't obiwan has to tell him to trust the force.

They may be desperate, but which makes more sense they took a desperate last ditch effort with a low chance of success (as determined that only two fighters every got in position to make the attempt.) Or they just randomly decided to throw away all their pilots in a pointless suicide mission with no reasonable chance of success even if Vader hadn't been helping take out the other ships. Keep in mind x wings have ftl and they could live to fight another day rather then be wasted on a suicide mission.

The rebellion would have to have been utterly irrational if their plan was simply impossible to achieve. If the death star could have just ignored the fighters powered through to blow up the planet in that case the only logical thing to have done would be to evacuate they could have payed solo to stuff all the people he could onto his ship and saved someone.

I mean the rebellions pretty incompetent but I dont think they would have pointlessly sacrificed all their people on a plan they knew couldn't work right from the start.

[Rynjin]

They definitely thought there was a slim chance.

As I keep repeating, they were proven wrong. The only thing that made it possible was space magic.

[Peelee]

he has no reason to believe the force will allow him to make that shot when others can't obiwan has to tell him to trust the force.

Yeah, and we're led to believe if he didn't then he would have missed. This is the Hero's Journey. The day is gonna be saved by space magic. If he didn't need space magic, then the entire setup of all of it was narratively pointless.

I mean the rebellions pretty incompetent but I dont think they would have pointlessly sacrificed all their people on a plan they knew couldn't work right from the start.

Dude. The only other option was to have everyone die anyway.

[awa]

Yeah, and we're led to believe if he didn't then he would have missed. This is the Hero's Journey. The day is gonna be saved by space magic. If he didn't need space magic, then the entire setup of all of it was narratively pointless.


Dude. The only other option was to have everyone die anyway.

No it wasn't han solo had a ship, the x wings have ftl, presumably they had ships they arrived there in. Maybe they would not have been able to save everyone but they quite obviously had the ability to move at least a portion of the rebellion away to fight another day, they choose to evacuate no one.

I mean it clear we disagree on whether this was a hard shot or a literally impossible one and i'm content with that no one convinces any one of anything on the internet anyway.

[Forum Explorer]

The Empire loses in RotJ because the Emperor is overconfident in the brilliance of his trap, like that's the whole plot. If he hadn't gone for the roundabout scheme with built in vulnerabilities and just built the bigger, badder Death Star in the first place he would have had a much better time. Again, the Rebels firmly believe that if the second Death Star finishes construction they're done for.

It does pretty much put victory out of the Rebel's grasp. They can no longer take planets away from the Empire, or set up bases on deserted planets, because if they do, the Empire can just obliterate them. And that means they probably won't receive any government assistance either. It doesn't mean they can't fight at all, but with the Emperor living on the Death Star, actually ending the Empire seems a little insurmountable.

They definitely thought there was a slim chance.

As I keep repeating, they were proven wrong. The only thing that made it possible was space magic.

They are hardly 'proven' wrong. We see one other person take a shot and miss. We see Luke shoot with the Force and succeed. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't pull the shot off.

Like think about it this way. Normal pilots had a 5% chance of making the shot. Luke had a 95% chance of making the shot. That doesn't mean that the normal pilots had a 0% chance and there is nothing in the narrative suggesting that they did. Even the Empire treated the possibility as something that could happen, if unlikely, when someone suggested to Tarkin to evacuate.

[Peelee]

They are hardly 'proven' wrong. We see one other person take a shot and miss. We see Luke shoot with the Force and succeed. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't pull the shot off.

In addition to Luke's magic shot, only one other person takes the shot because only one other person even lives long enough to do so. Luke wouldn't even have lived without a third party intervening. And its not like the TIEs were unexpected, we hear "here they come" when they enter the fray.

Also, on that note, it's kind of crazy that a Y-Wing is the only ship fast enough to get in the trench and get within range without getting shot by Vader, and then in Legends and EU is constantly derided as incredibly slow.

[pendell]

In addition to Luke's magic shot, only one other person takes the shot because only one other person even lives long enough to do so. Luke wouldn't even have lived without a third party intervening. And its not like the TIEs were unexpected, we hear "here they come" when they enter the fray.

Also, on that note, it's kind of crazy that a Y-Wing is the only ship fast enough to get in the trench and get within range without getting shot by Vader, and then in Legends and EU is constantly derided as incredibly slow.

I don't get it. As I recall in the movie there were three passes:
1) The y-wing run, which was shot down by Vader before they got close to the exhaust port.
2) Red Leader's run in an X-wing, arguably at that point the single best starfighter pilot in the Alliance. He flew against Darth Vader, made it all the way to his target, only to miss the final shot. I think this run is to show us the best human effort in the GFFA can achieve, unaided by the Force.
He did the best any non-Jedi could have done, and it just wasn't enough.
3) Luke's run. Which, as we all know, was entirely successful.

Y-wings are starfighters, so while they are slower than the TIE interceptors specifically designed to shoot them down.that doesn't mean they're slow in general terms. Same way an F-16 is "slow" compared to mach-3 capable aircraft , but supersonic speeds are still pretty darn fast for atmospheric flight.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

I don't get it. As I recall in the movie there were three passes:
1) The y-wing run, which was shot down by Vader before they got close to the exhaust port.
2) Red Leader's run in an X-wing, arguably at that point the single best starfighter pilot in the Alliance. He flew against Darth Vader, made it all the way to his target, only to miss the final shot. I think this run is to show us the best human effort in the GFFA can achieve, unaided by the Force.
He did the best any non-Jedi could have done, and it just wasn't enough.
3) Luke's run. Which, as we all know, was entirely successful.

Y-wings are starfighters, so while they are slower than the TIE interceptors specifically designed to shoot them down.that doesn't mean they're slow in general terms. Same way an F-16 is "slow" compared to mach-3 capable aircraft , but supersonic speeds are still pretty darn fast for atmospheric flight.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That's on me, i thought the Y-Wing got the shot off.

Also, those were standard TIEs (technically TIE spaxe superiority fighter). Interceptors were in RotJ.

And i fully agree with point 2.

[Forum Explorer]

In addition to Luke's magic shot, only one other person takes the shot because only one other person even lives long enough to do so. Luke wouldn't even have lived without a third party intervening. And its not like the TIEs were unexpected, we hear "here they come" when they enter the fray.

Also, on that note, it's kind of crazy that a Y-Wing is the only ship fast enough to get in the trench and get within range without getting shot by Vader, and then in Legends and EU is constantly derided as incredibly slow.

I feel like you are agreeing with me, but your other posts have been in support of the whole 'Space Wizard was literally necessary to make the shot' concept. So I feel like I'm missing your point.

[Peelee]

I feel like you are agreeing with me, but your other posts have been in support of the whole 'Space Wizard was literally necessary to make the shot' concept. So I feel like I'm missing your point.

Imean, if you're saying "the Death Star's exhaust port was not a stupid weakness because it was ray sheilded, in a trench filled with turbolasers, on a moon-sized battle station filled with turbolasers, with TIE fighters to provide additional defense, in a **** widely regarded as virtually impossible such that it was only accomplished by someone using magical powers", then sure, I'm agreeing with you.

Or, rather, you'd be agreeing with me, since thats been my position this entire time, and every time i hear people talk about how that was a bad weakness.

[awa]

Its been a long time since i watched this movie but doesn't solo say something like lets blow this joint and go home kid after vader gets hit? Indicating success is very likely?

That seems to imply that the true difficulty was getting to the port, and that making the shot when you dont have Darth Vader breathing down your neck is not nearly as difficult.

[Peelee]

Its been a long time since i watched this movie but doesn't solo say something like lets blow this joint and go home kid after vader gets hit? Indicating success is very likely?

He does say that. He also thinks that chasing stormtroopers into unknown areas of a space station they know and he doesn't is a good idea.

Also, the rebel pilots explicitly refer to the shot itself being the difficult part, specifically due to the 2-meter size and only having proton torpedoes.

[Forum Explorer]

Imean, if you're saying "the Death Star's exhaust port was not a stupid weakness because it was ray sheilded, in a trench filled with turbolasers, on a moon-sized battle station filled with turbolasers, with TIE fighters to provide additional defense, in a **** widely regarded as virtually impossible such that it was only accomplished by someone using magical powers", then sure, I'm agreeing with you.

Or, rather, you'd be agreeing with me, since thats been my position this entire time, and every time i hear people talk about how that was a bad weakness.

Then I think my point is more neutral than anything. Cause I do think that if both Vader and Luke weren't there, the Rebels could have pulled the shot off. Vader basically reduced the shots on point from 9 to 2. But it was still an absurdly difficult shot.