VS Battles Wiki Make No Sense At All

[Peelee]

Then I think my point is more neutral than anything. Cause I do think that if both Vader and Luke weren't there, the Rebels could have pulled the shot off. Vader basically reduced the shots on point from 9 to 2. But it was still an absurdly difficult shot.

Vader could be replaced by another pilot. The other TIEs were matching him perfectly, and he was using the onboard targeting, not the Force.

Also, he reduced the shots from 3 to 2, not 9. Only each flight's leader has the targeting computer lined up and ready.

[pendell]

I would argue that if we didn't need a space wizard to make the shot, Red Leader would have made it and Luke would never have had to make his own run. As I've said, I think the entire point of him taking the shot first is to demonstrate that only a space wizard will save the day here. Red Leader, after all, has been a starfighter ace longer than Luke has been alive. If anyone in the Rebellion who wasn't a Jedi could have made that shot, he would have.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forum Explorer]

Vader could be replaced by another pilot. The other TIEs were matching him perfectly, and he was using the onboard targeting, not the Force.

Also, he reduced the shots from 3 to 2, not 9. Only each flight's leader has the targeting computer lined up and ready.

No, the Y-Wings all have their targeting computers going too. The X-Wings didn't, but they were likely more concerned about Vader at that point.
Also that's not counting the ships surviving, and being able to come back around for another try.

Also it is unlikely Vader could be replaced by another pilot. He was the one to scramble fighters in the first place, and specifically grabbed those two to deal with the runs into the trench. The other tie fighters were having a hard enough time dealing with the X-Wings out in the open. Remember, Vader is both an ace pilot in his own right, is totally using the Force (the whole 'the Force is strong with this one' sentence implying Luke is using the Force to avoid Vader's own Force usage to speed up his aim), and has a specially made ship that is more durable and more lethal than the normal Tie Fighter.

Or rather, he could have been replaced, but it is extremely doubtful that a normal Tie Fighter would have been nearly as successful at intercepting ships like Vader was.

[GloatingSwine]

I would argue that if we didn't need a space wizard to make the shot, Red Leader would have made it and Luke would never have had to make his own run. As I've said, I think the entire point of him taking the shot first is to demonstrate that only a space wizard will save the day here. Red Leader, after all, has been a starfighter ace longer than Luke has been alive. If anyone in the Rebellion who wasn't a Jedi could have made that shot, he would have.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I guess, if you live your life by the principle that if you make literally one single attempt at a thing and if it doesn't work first time you declare that it's impossible without magic...

If they'd been able to make enough runs on the target then simple blind chance would have had one of them succeed.

Also it is unlikely Vader could be replaced by another pilot. He was the one to scramble fighters in the first place, and specifically grabbed those two to deal with the runs into the trench. The other tie fighters were having a hard enough time dealing with the X-Wings out in the open. Remember, Vader is both an ace pilot in his own right, is totally using the Force (the whole 'the Force is strong with this one' sentence implying Luke is using the Force to avoid Vader's own Force usage to speed up his aim), and has a specially made ship that is more durable and more lethal than the normal Tie Fighter.

Without Vader there wouldn't have been any fighters at all. He was the only one with the power and authority to launch them against Tarkin's orders.

[Forum Explorer]

I would argue that if we didn't need a space wizard to make the shot, Red Leader would have made it and Luke would never have had to make his own run. As I've said, I think the entire point of him taking the shot first is to demonstrate that only a space wizard will save the day here. Red Leader, after all, has been a starfighter ace longer than Luke has been alive. If anyone in the Rebellion who wasn't a Jedi could have made that shot, he would have.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If the first shot attempted had succeeded then would you have felt it was actually a difficult shot at all? Also while Garvan is a good pilot, canonically Wedge is still the better pilot. And we have no idea how he scales to the Y-Wing pilots at all.

[pendell]

I guess, if you live your life by the principle that if you make literally one single attempt at a thing and if it doesn't work first time you declare that it's impossible without magic...

If they'd been able to make enough runs on the target then simple blind chance would have had one of them succeed.

They don't have infinite runs on the target. They have a hard time limit of 30 minutes before the Death Star is in position to blow up Yavin 4. Even if the Death Star had done nothing in its defense (which was probably Tarkin's original plan), there's only so many fighters they can fit down the trench at a time. As it happens, they got a total of three runs in before the Death Star was in position, and Luke was JUST in time to put the pickle in the barrel before the superlaser fired.

Even without opposition, I don't think they could have fit in more than six runs into that tiny trench in the time they had; the approach is pretty miserable and cramped even without any resistance at all to complicate the targeting solution. And in the event, the Death Star WAS firing its own anti-starfighter cannons. Ineffective at actually downing ships they may have been, but they still disrupt the formation and add some negative modifiers to the ship's firing.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

I remember someone (Leia?) still in the planning room saying that "the shot was impossible" and Luke replying that it isn't. That he used to shoot [random SW creature] and they are the about same size as the Death Star's vent, so a skilled pilot could pull it off...

Luke (a very inexperienced pilot, who apparently had some basic training on piloting and shooting, probably from his uncle) used the Force to complement his skills and get the shot... LUKE probably couldn't do it otherwise, but that doesn't mean the far more experienced pilots had zero chance to do it, had they not been destroyed by Vader.

[pendell]

I remember someone (Leia?) still in the planning room saying that "the shot was impossible" and Luke replying that it isn't. That he used to shoot [random SW creature] and they are the about same size as the Death Star's vent, so a skilled pilot could pull it off...

Luke (a very inexperienced pilot, who apparently had some basic training on piloting and shooting, probably from his uncle) used the Force to complement his skills and get the shot... LUKE probably couldn't do it otherwise, but that doesn't mean the far more experienced pilots had zero chance to do it, had they not been destroyed by Vader.

I remember Qui-Gonn remarking to Anakin that he must have Jedi reflexes if he can fly in a swoop race.

I have to wonder if this isn't a similar moment; Yes, Luke can bulls-eye womp-rats. The question is, does anyone else on Tatoooine do this? Is this something any bored farmer with time on their hands can do , or is it something Luke specifically can do because he's force-sensitive?

In any event, in the original novelization the pilot Luke is speaking to asks back if Luke had a hundred other womp-rats firing at him with energy rifles while he was lining up his shot.

It's not just the ability to hit a two-meter target. We have to add a negative modifier in for the fact the pilots have to reach their target through a narrow trench, which is a piloting challenge all on its own. Then we have to factor in flak, for some additional negative modifiers. Finally, add in pursuing fighters in on top of that. We'll discount the fact one of them is being flown by a person who is both a powerful Dark Side user and -- once -- the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, because the rebels couldn't know that and wouldn't factor it into the odds.

Add all that in, you're looking at a pretty high DC check, which would be very hard to make even with a handful of tries. Except of course, the Force is there to hand Luke a natural 20 when he needs it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[LibraryOgre]

I remember someone (Leia?) still in the planning room saying that "the shot was impossible" and Luke replying that it isn't. That he used to shoot [random SW creature] and they are the about same size as the Death Star's vent, so a skilled pilot could pull it off...

Dodonna: It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system.
Wedge: That's impossible, even for a computer.
Luke: It's not impossible; I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than 2 meters.
Dodonna: Then man your ships, and may the Force be with you.

I swear, it's like you people didn't watch this movie several times a year for the last 40 years or something.

[awa]

you know 2 meters is pretty big for something called a rat

[JNAProductions]

you know 2 meters is pretty big for something called a rat

Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't believe they exist.

[pendell]

Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't believe they exist.

Inconceivable!

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[tyckspoon]

Inconceivable!

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

But if they did exist, would your ability to shoot them with a rifle give you an unearned confidence in your ability to hit the same size target with an aircraft-mounted air-to-ground missile?

[LibraryOgre]

But if they did exist, would your ability to shoot them with a rifle give you an unearned confidence in your ability to hit the same size target with an aircraft-mounted air-to-ground missile?

Unearned? I mean, he DID hit the same size target with a starfighter-sized capital weapon.

[Peelee]

Dodonna: It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system.
Wedge: That's impossible, even for a computer.
Luke: It's not impossible; I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than 2 meters.
Dodonna: Then man your ships, and may the Force be with you.

I swear, it's like you people didn't watch this movie several times a year for the last 40 years or something.

Man, i even just said what preceded the "that's impossible!" line...

DODONNA
The approach will not be easy. You
are required to maneuver straight
down this trench and skim the surface
to this point. The target area is
only two meters wide. It's a small
thermal exhaust port, right below
the main port. The shaft leads
directly to the reactor system. A
precise hit will start a chain
reaction which should destroy the
station.

A murmer of disbelief runs through the room.

DODONNA
Only a precise hit will set up a
chain reaction. The shaft is ray-
shielded, so you'll have to use proton
torpedoes.

Luke is sitting next to Wedge Antilles, a hotshot pilot about
sixteen years old.

WEDGE
That's impossible, even for a
computer.

LUKE
It's not impossible. I used to bull's-
eye womp rats in my T-sixteen back
home. They're not much bigger than
two meters.

DODONNA
Man your ships! And may the Force be
with you!

Without Vader there wouldn't have been any fighters at all. He was the only one with the power and authority to launch them against Tarkin's orders.

What? Tarkin never ordered the fighters to not launch, and they were fighting for some time before Vader got in his.

[Keltest]

But if they did exist, would your ability to shoot them with a rifle give you an unearned confidence in your ability to hit the same size target with an aircraft-mounted air-to-ground missile?

A T-16 is actually a skyhopper, a personal vehicle of sorts. You know, like a pickup truck with a railgun on it.

[Mechalich]

A T-16 is actually a skyhopper, a personal vehicle of sorts. You know, like a pickup truck with a railgun on it.

Yep, and shooting womp rats from one is rather like hunting feral hogs from a helicopter.

[sktarq]

But if they did exist, would your ability to shoot them with a rifle give you an unearned confidence in your ability to hit the same size target with an aircraft-mounted air-to-ground missile?

Yep, and shooting womp rats from one is rather like hunting feral hogs from a helicopter.

***thinks about the people I know who go hog wild on a sounder with an AR-15 (or clone) and if it would effect their self perceived ability to use air to ground missiles****

Yes Yes it would.

[Lemmy]

I remember Qui-Gonn remarking to Anakin that he must have Jedi reflexes if he can fly in a swoop race.

I have to wonder if this isn't a similar moment; Yes, Luke can bulls-eye womp-rats. The question is, does anyone else on Tatoooine do this? Is this something any bored farmer with time on their hands can do , or is it something Luke specifically can do because he's force-sensitive?

In any event, in the original novelization the pilot Luke is speaking to asks back if Luke had a hundred other womp-rats firing at him with energy rifles while he was lining up his shot.

It's not just the ability to hit a two-meter target. We have to add a negative modifier in for the fact the pilots have to reach their target through a narrow trench, which is a piloting challenge all on its own. Then we have to factor in flak, for some additional negative modifiers. Finally, add in pursuing fighters in on top of that. We'll discount the fact one of them is being flown by a person who is both a powerful Dark Side user and -- once -- the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, because the rebels couldn't know that and wouldn't factor it into the odds.

Add all that in, you're looking at a pretty high DC check, which would be very hard to make even with a handful of tries. Except of course, the Force is there to hand Luke a natural 20 when he needs it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Oh, I never said it was easy... In fact the whole point is that it's very difficult... But it isn't impossible. Especially with about 10 fighters there (and even more so if Vader wasn't there, in which case there wouldn't be enemy fighters).

It was a desperate plan with a very low chance of success... But one that could be done.

The way I see it, Luke used the Force as guidance, to complement his already existing skills and succeed... Essentially, he gave himself an Insight bonus to his skill checks and attack rolls for a couple rounds.

[ArlEammon]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Me...n:_BBC_Series)

Is this guy, Merlin, accurately tiered in anyone's opinion? I think he's a little high.

[Bartmanhomer]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Me...n:_BBC_Series)

Is this guy, Merlin, accurately tiered in anyone's opinion? I think he's a little high.

He's ok in my opinion. Nothing wrong with his tier of power scaling.

[Peelee]

Especially with about 10 fighters there (and even more so if Vader wasn't there, in which case there wouldn't be enemy fighters).

Again, theres no reason to think this. Vader is told the fighters are too small for their turbolasers to hit, and the order is to destroy the world hem ship to ship. This is a pretty obvious response, qns Vader was walking through a hallway when the officer encountered him. Vader was just the first person to give the order, it's highly unlikely nobody else would have done the same.

The way I see it, Luke used the Force as guidance, to complement his already existing skills and succeed... Essentially, he gave himself an Insight bonus to his skill checks and attack rolls for a couple rounds.

Agreed. Every +1 counts!

[ArlEammon]

He's ok in my opinion. Nothing wrong with his tier of power scaling.

His AP should be lower than Island level, imho. He's never exerted power on that level. Yes he moved clouds with tk, but he never weaponized it that way.

[pendell]

The way I see it, Luke used the Force as guidance, to complement his already existing skills and succeed... Essentially, he gave himself an Insight bonus to his skill checks and attack rolls for a couple rounds.

I 99% agree. Luke already has skill both as a pilot and a sharpshooter. Yes, he used the Force to enhance his already-existing natural abilities. All agreed so far.
The part I disagree on -- very small -- is that I think Luke was already unconsciously using the Force to enhance his abilities. Same with Anakin flying a pod race, which is supposed to be impossible for a human being. Neither of them are conscious of the Force enhancing their natural skills, but that's exactly what is happening.

Which may explain why Luke is saying bulls-eying a two-meter target from a skyhopper is no big deal -- well, maybe it isn't, not for someone who's already an unconscious Force user. Left unanswered is whether this is a common feat any Tatooine farm kid could pull off , or whether it's Luke unconsciously using Force abilities to already do stuff difficult but not impossible for ordinary people.

Again, theres no reason to think this. Vader is told the fighters are too small for their turbolasers to hit, and the order is to destroy the world hem ship to ship. This is a pretty obvious response, qns Vader was walking through a hallway when the officer encountered him. Vader was just the first person to give the order, it's highly unlikely nobody else would have done the same.

So far as I can see, there are two separate events:

1) The rebels initially attack. Darth Vader, in hallway, is informed of the situation and orders the fighters launched. Tarkin is apparently more than happy to leave the day-to-day conduct of the battle to Darth Vader. All he cares about on the bridge is the result, which is Yavin 4 blowing up.

2) About 5 minutes later, we see Vader in the hall addressing two TIE pilots: "Several fighters have broken from the main group. Come with me!" Three minutes later we see him lifting off in his TIE/Advanced accompanied by two wingpeople.

Darth Vader appears to be commanding the battle throughout, eventually taking personal command because he doesn't think the fighters out there will be adequate to stop these "several fighters". I suppose he has already deduced what the rebels are attempting.

It seems odd that he would forfeit control of the battle to take the stick but A) He probably doesn't think there's any point in giving more orders to the death star gunners. "Shoot X-wings down" should be fairly self-explanatory. B) Maybe he wanted some stick time? He's in middle age at this point, probably doesn't have much time for stick-n-rudder work in his current position.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bartmanhomer]

His AP should be lower than Island level, imho. He's never exerted power on that level. Yes, he moved clouds with tk, but he never weaponized it that way.

Forgive my ignorance but what's AP means?

[ArlEammon]

Forgive my ignorance but what's AP means?

Attack Potency.

[Bartmanhomer]

Attack Potency.

Ok, Thank you. I do agree with you that his attack potency should be lower than an island level.

[Mechalich]

Which may explain why Luke is saying bulls-eying a two-meter target from a skyhopper is no big deal -- well, maybe it isn't, not for someone who's already an unconscious Force user. Left unanswered is whether this is a common feat any Tatooine farm kid could pull off , or whether it's Luke unconsciously using Force abilities to already do stuff difficult but not impossible for ordinary people.

An important factor is the weapon difference. Hitting the bullseye on two meter target with lasers might not have been especially challenging, but doing so with proton torpedoes is much, much harder. It's rather like the difference between hitting the bullseye with a rifle versus an RPG.

1) The rebels initially attack. Darth Vader, in hallway, is informed of the situation and orders the fighters launched. Tarkin is apparently more than happy to leave the day-to-day conduct of the battle to Darth Vader. All he cares about on the bridge is the result, which is Yavin 4 blowing up.

The key point here is that Vader lies outside the normal chain of command. The officer who informs Vader of the situation is Lieutenant Tanbris, who is part of Vader's personal command. The fighter unit that Vader orders into battle, Black Squadron, is his private fighter unit, not any portion of the Death Star's TIE complement. Tarkin did not launch any of the Death Star's TIEs - of which there were 7,000 (this number is retained in both continuities) - presumably because he felt it was unnecessary (which isn't entirely unreasonable, the gunners were suppressing the fighters, if slowly, and the damage they were inflicting was minimal).

It seems odd that he would forfeit control of the battle to take the stick but A) He probably doesn't think there's any point in giving more orders to the death star gunners. "Shoot X-wings down" should be fairly self-explanatory. B) Maybe he wanted some stick time? He's in middle age at this point, probably doesn't have much time for stick-n-rudder work in his current position.

Vader has always led from the front, going back to his time as Anakin. He has an almost irresistible urge to mix it up in person at every opportunity.

[Bartmanhomer]

I also agree that Merlin telekinesis shouldn't be weaponized that way with the clouds and yes I have watch the show a little bit.

[Peelee]

An important factor is the weapon difference. Hitting the bullseye on two meter target with lasers might not have been especially challenging, but doing so with proton torpedoes is much, much harder. It's rather like the difference between hitting the bullseye with a rifle versus an RPG.

Exactly! As I've pointed out twice now and even quoted the relevant part of the script. Also notable that lasers can be fired continuously while torpedoes cannot.

The key point here is that Vader lies outside the normal chain of command. The officer who informs Vader of the situation is Lieutenant Tanbris, who is part of Vader's personal command. The fighter unit that Vader orders into battle, Black Squadron, is his private fighter unit, not any portion of the Death Star's TIE complement. Tarkin did not launch any of the Death Star's TIEs - of which there were 7,000 (this number is retained in both continuities) - presumably because he felt it was unnecessary (which isn't entirely unreasonable, the gunners were suppressing the fighters, if slowly, and the damage they were inflicting was minimal).

Are we talking the overall, entire EU canon, or just the original movie as originally intended? Because I've been doing the latter - it's a standalone story and unlike the rest of Star Wars, which has this compound the more content is added, it had to be perfectly encapsulated within itself.