Building a Character to Fill Lots of Roles

[HalfQuart]

Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?

What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14? If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.

I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X. That hits everything except for Darkvision.

[OGDojo]

5.Factotum - "build that can do anything" just screams Factotum, but I don't really like the inspiration mechanic. Maybe I just need to get over it and try it out.

on factotums, i have built several (one of my favorite classes) i like it cuz you only need a high intelligence to get ALOT of things, there is even a feat called "Font of Inspiration" that gives you 1,+1 for every time you take it:

first time 1 point
2nd time 2 points for a total of 3
3rd time 3 points for a total of 6
4th time 4 points for a total of 10

so with 4 feats you basically gain all of the inspiration points you will need for a single combat, which if you take Flaws and exchange them for feats as well as be human (i know boring) at 1st level you have 4 feats so out of the gate your character can hold his own in combat and in normal play. my favorite things about the factotum are

Cunning Insight, which allows you to add Int to Attack roll for 1 point AND damage roll for an extra point
Cunning Knowledge, which allows you to add your int modifier to skill checks and you can apply it to several skills a day but only 1 skill check of that type per day, so like you could do Knowledge Engineering AND knowledge Geography but you cant do either of them twice in 1 day
Brains Over Brawn, This applies your Intelligence instead of str and dex to all skills that use str and dex. very useful in a lot of situations especially swimming and climbing.
and
Opportunistic Piety, Being an off healer is never terrible. and with the inspiration points to pull it out in combat and barely lose any melee or ranged capability is awesome.

there are a few others that i like too but these are the main ones. i like Cunning strike as it functions as their version of sneak attack so you can deal more damage. as well as Arcane Dilettante because being able to cast a spell in the middle of combat is super useful.

if your building it at higher levels and have access to Advanced Beastiary from PFSRD, there is a +1CR template called the Savant that works perfectly for the factotum

Savant gets some stat changes but the most notable is a +10 to int
it also gets 10 skills that it can take a 10 on in any situation, considering factotum treats all skills as trained being able to take a ten in them with the ability to add your int to them as well makes this ability very useful
i could gush about my builds all day but the factotum is, in my opinion the best character for jack of all trades. its also not a bad choice for new players that wanna see what their play style is. its perfect because its, Spend a point, do cool shiz, spend another point do something else, it will give the new player a lot of skills to choose from that can help nail down what things they like most about the game and how to build towards it.

[Troacctid]

Beguilers can't heal but they can cover a lot of roles in a party. A socially oriented spell list, trapfinding, skills, etc. Note that illusion spells are great against mindless enemies where enchantments aren't, so beguilers have a keyhole weaknesses against mind-immune intelligent enemies, but they're still high 3 and able to contribute.

Not much healing, though, I'm afraid.

Beguiler is great too, although it is currently ranked in tier 2, not tier 3.

Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?

You are correct that having it in there when you start, at level 3, would be beneficial. At level 4, it might be a wash, since at that point it causes you to miss 2nd level spells. And at level 5, the delayed version has a significant advantage.

The difference between a crusader with all 2nds and a crusader with all 1sts is pretty pronounced because crusader maneuvers are randomly selected each turn. Being guaranteed a stronger maneuver every time is pretty good. The earlier level is valid, but if you went that route, I would probably recommend warblade over crusader—or possibly a mix of both, with warblade early on and crusader later.

Either way, up to you. My go-to full build would be Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +1/Bard +1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9.

What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14?

Charisma and Strength are primary stats, because you still need to be able to land your spells. At least 14 in each, and going up to 15 or 16 in either or both is reasonable. Con, Dex, and Int are secondary: Con for HP, Dex for AC and initiative, and Int for skill points (this is still a skill-focused build after all!). Wisdom is a dump stat. I'd take an inventory of the skills you want to max and figure out how much Int you need for it, then boost Int accordingly in your point buy. Once you've got your Str, Cha, and Int, divide the rest of the points up among Dex and Con according to your preference.

EDIT: Is this about right for skill priority?

Perform (required for bards)
Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive (social package)
Spot, Listen, Search (perception package—a familiar will help with this)
Search, Disable Device (trapfinding package)
Survival (wilderness package)

That's 9 different skills, so 14 Int plus Nymph's Kiss should just about cover it.

If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.

Don't stress too much about optimizing inspire courage. There aren't going to be great ways to make it work, and that's okay. Sometimes just being a swift action is enough. Just get a masterwork instrument for whatever bonus you like best (I'm a mandolin gal myself), and let your DM know that the badge and vest are on your wishlist. Masterwork horn was updated to 3.5 in CAd though, so I wouldn't count on the 3.0 version being available unless you've pre-cleared it with your DM. If you do want to improve your bardic music, Dragonfire Inspiration is the feat you want (with a masterwork mandolin to boost it). There's also a feat in Dragon Magazine that's like Practiced Spellcaster for bardic music, but you don't have access to that. Another good option if flaws are allowed is Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder, which gives you skill mastery in Bluff and Diplomacy and lets you make a rushed Diplomacy check as a standard action.

Battle Caster isn't worth it compared to just wearing mithral. If you go dragonblood (e.g. forestlord or deepwyrm half-elf, dragonborn elf, or silverbrow human), you could go for dragonscale husk if you want; it's similar to medium armor and has no ASF.

That hits everything except for Darkvision.

For the record, I think low-light vision is better than darkvision. You're always going to have a light source for the rest of the party anyway, and once you do, low-light vision doubling the effective radius of a lantern or sunrod should give you 120 feet of visual range (or 80, for a continual flame or light spell) compared to darkvision's 60. If you take Obtain Familiar, you can have your familiar hold the light source, and you won't have to worry about having a free hand. And if you take Celestial Familiar, your familiar is a light source! Darkvision can be useful if you're trying to be stealthy, but I'd be astonished if you had enough skill points for Hide and Move Silently after fulfilling your other priorities.

If you really want darkvision, though, then you should be a Savage Progression aasimar without the racial level. Great race for bards. https://web.archive.org/web/20201112...d/sp/20040213a

I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X.

Bard is best when you have a lot of it, and crusader only needs a light sprinkling to be good, so this wouldn't be my preferred progression. If you're going the Able Learner route, I'd probably just do a Rogue/Swordsage mix, and throw in ranger somewhere if you want Track and/or TWF, favored classes permitting.

[HunterOfJello]

Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?

What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14? If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.

I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X. That hits everything except for Darkvision.

Crusader has some maneuvers that use their shield. If you wanted to use those, Divine Bard lets you use heavy armor and a shield without penalty, but you'd need 12 or 13 Wisdom to qualify to cast your spells (still uses Cha for DCs and bonus spells). Obv you can do without the shield maneuvers if you'd like.

Darkvision is hard to grab outside of races, templates, or an item.

[Troacctid]

Darkvision is hard to grab outside of races, templates, or an item.

It's actually pretty easy. You can just spend a feat on it. There are over half a dozen feats in the allowed sources that will do it. Not that feats are cheap, but still.

- Bind Vestige
- Shape Soulmeld (Basilisk Mask)
- Touchstone (The Blinding Tower)
- Sunlight Eyes
- Umbral Shroud
- Inhuman Vision
- Devil's Sight
- Draconic Senses

If you expand it into Dragon Magazine and setting-specific books, the list gets longer.

[Maat Mons]

Note that Inhuman Vision and Devil’s Sight each have a prerequisite feat, and Draconic Senses requires either being a dragonblooded race or spending a feat to get the subtype.

[HalfQuart]

Thanks for all the suggestions -- it certainly gave me a lot to think about! :-)

[Nihilarian]

Bard is the classic jack of all trades. If you're not satisfied with their melee abilities there are methods to improve that. Dragonfire Inspiration optimization, Snowflake Wardance, Knowledge Devotion, Swiftblade. You'll need to dip or spend feats to get trapfinding, and you could see if your DM allows the unerratad version of Healing Hymn. Still, a good choice

[Soranar]

Factotum works very well with mounted combat (you can add your INT to damage and it's multiplied).

As for a mount, wild cohort can get you a camel (surprisingly strong mount) for a medium rider or a riding dog for a small one. Just give the camel armor spikes on his barding and he's ready to go (even with -4 to hit it's worth it to get full STR bonus to damage). Eventually you can get it a mouthpick weapon (lord of madness, automatically proficient with it)

A Killoren gives you a smite attack that works against undead and constructs and being a fey can be fun when using alter self and polymorph.

I don't actually recommend taking font of inspiration: regular feats will serve you just as well. Power attack, knowledge devotion and all the ride feats to get spirited charge. You'll feel like a paladin without all the roleplay requirements and your turn undead will probably be stronger.

[Clause]

You can do a human factotun 5/ jordainvizier5/ exemplar(or nigthsong infiltrator)10


On other way, can be an half elf or elf archivist 5/seeker of the mistyisland 7/shadowbane stalker 8